Panel I Polygon & Ethereum With Sandeep Nailwal, Jordi Baylina, Mihailo Bjelic | | Pragma Paris 2023

foreign [Music] for this one I want to bring on three amazing people they're all co-founders of polygon we're going to talk about what's been happening in the polygon ego system how do they think about the alignment with ethereum ecosystem moving forward and all of the new exciting Tech that you can look forward to so without further Ado please welcome Sandeep mihalo and Jordy on stage [Applause] hi everyone hello hello this mic is very good hello so as we were planning to uh to do this panel I wanted to think about a different format than let's do one by one so what I'm going to do is I'm going to just say very little prompts and I want you to figure it out and answer things that that best represent the the collective answer from from polygon but I'll still make it a little bit fair I want to have Jordy kick us off with kind of giving an overview of kind of what's been happening in this in the world of kind of scaling so Jordy my kind of question to you is you've been helping scale ethereum for years and you've been very crucial in the advancements of ckvms and just CK Tech and that being production ready could you give us an overview of how things got started in this space what you've been able to do before and after at polygon and overall what's the delay of the land for how polygon is thinking about scalability yeah well when they start the the blockchain 2016 I mean a long time ago uh well I realized that this technology was amazing and and you wanted to do a lot of things and a lot of ideas and so on but the first time that I tried to use seriously in my in so in real life it was for Catalonia events and so on I realized that this technology just doesn't work I mean it's fine it's cool it has a lot of promises but if you want to use it in in in mainstream if you want to use it in real applications uh it's not ready it's not ready by far so uh for me at that point I decided okay I want to I want to be here I want to improve this technology I want to bring this technology uh to the people I want to use this technology for doing good to the people and uh well there is a lot of problems this technology has but one of those is that this technology doesn't scale I mean Bitcoin you can do maybe 1000 transactions every 10 minutes I mean you can do whatever you want but you don't you go nowhere I mean you can play with friends but not much more than that ethereum is a little bit better but not scale anyway so I started to to see the at that point the scalability was like a Holy Grail at that point and I mean the the the solutions were there didn't convince me at all here was all these payment channels this lighting networks was today and but there was one project that okay this looks like different and somehow this this project was called plasma a long time ago I mean with a lot of things but you you start seeing in there that okay here there is something that looks interesting okay and together with that uh remember reading some of the vitalik blog posts about zero knowledge they implemented I mean they added these padding functions inside the inside the ethereum I mean it's pre-compiled smart contracts in there so I start just getting there I studying there I um well I'm learning there I just wrote circum it's just no weekend I need to write that so I just recommend that point just brought the snark.js of course I remember like three times after that but have a free weekend then you build a new programming language for ZK yeah like I think it's the most used circuit language I think these days yeah today I think it's just casually dropping inventing a programming language over a weekend you can throw everybody else caught that yeah but it's it's I mean it was just to I wanted to understand how these things work and and and and then okay I just did that okay and uh no but of course I mean then there is a lot of work that happens after that but the basic things was was was done quite quite fast and you start seeing what the I mean projects like semaphore at that point I mean the projects like tornado remember the tornado cash was a cool story because I mean there was I was right circum for playing and there was a couple of guys that told me hey we want to use that to make a mixer and they tell you okay do whatever you want don't put my name in there and not not for what happened no just because I mean circum was not production ready at all so it was more for um it was very not losing money yeah exactly so actually they did it I mean there was some bugs uh we discovered we were like auditing a lot of help here in the community everything we they fix it and they well they look at was a reality out of that and but then many other projects uh happen at that point so we get deep deep in in uh with with circum uh then we created uh item three item three was try to create a protocol for digital identity mainly using zero knowledge using silicon that was like part of uh of that and with this technology at point they say okay we can actually we can build relapse and here is a famous blog post of vitalik explaining the idea behind Roll-Ups and it was written by vitalik but I thought it was Barry Whitehead and many other people in the ethereum foundation that were thinking about this idea and we were talking a lot on this okay this is like a plasma but the real time with plasma becoming Roll-Ups exactly and this this is this is an important this this blog post is isn't important because when it's there we'll start working on that and we create that in in in in rn3 which says okay let's let's freeze the project from Identity and let's focus on creating uh payments payments roll up and we were evolving Circle and all the tooling and we created this harness what's Hermes one dot zero and uh after after that the I mean we created a Hermes we put it in production we go ready and after that there was uh what had from the film Foundation they come to my home in Switzerland and he was telling me we have to do as a KVM and I tell you okay you are crazy all right this is for the audience tell us why that was a crazy idea and and what were the constraints that made it sound crazy it's it was not visible I mean if you want to circum I mean if you do want to do for example a multiplication in 256 multiplications you need already thousands of hundreds of thousands of constraints and the maximum you can get is maybe 120 millions or something like that so and this is just one multiplication but if you want to do that many multiplication it just doesn't fit I mean this is the ethereum the ebm was not prepared to be uh to be embedded inside the ZK circuit okay and what's at this point that uh well um Barry just explained me all these new advances that happened with polynomials uh with I mean polynomial relationships so and here it's okay you can do a lot of things and we will start okay we have to I mean let's true as an exercise I think it's impossible but let's let's try it and then you go to all the different problems all the different uh okay how we solve the memory how we call solve the calling one smart contract to another smart contract how we solve ecdsa and we were running to all the major problems and we're trying to figure out each of the pieces and we arrived to a kind of a theoretical solution so this should be possible doing this way and and this is like this is possible as in we can do it or this is like oh we can maybe eventually make all of it work but right now we're only seeing some parts yeah I mean it's like okay this it's a way I mean at least it's a path and this this is this should be okay but very complex thing and and it's very complex and we had we end up with like a very complicated things to do but we we are just thinking on that and we're simplifying the things and at one point say okay this is definitely possible we don't know uh how much will it take to generate the proof uh we did the first estimations and we were measuring uh the proof generation in number of data centers that's the thing but I mean was was what was technically I mean it would be able to it should be possible to generate this proof and we'll start going deep on that there was a presentation that we give in Paris two years ago and here so it's not that long ago and I explained okay we can build the KVM using all these polynomial commitments with uh clock apps things that mean enough Tech they did all this amazing work plan all the work from Starks uh from I mean we just took a lot of Technologies around created by the community we put them all together and we start working on that at the beginning while we had to convince Versa had to convince my my my partners uh I mean it's not easy so sorry you're doing something that nobody believes that's gonna be working and then but here is I mean because the partners and then very very very soon uh I think was just after this conference in Paris uh come to these guys and says okay we want to scale ethereum we believe in in in in in in in uh what you're doing and Legend forces and I think was a very very very good partnership uh till uh till now I mean they yeah what but it's I mean it's like okay we know how to do this technology we know who is this is okay but we had all the experience even in Hermes one so we don't we don't know how to get adoption and how to use I don't want to build systems that uh that only myself is using I mean I want this to to to to scale and to provide and I mean polygon with an amazing job already on on that so at this point we decided to to join forces together at the same time with polygon uh there was other two teams that were crucial for the KVM here is the polygon zero that was mere at the time it was converted to polygon zero and polygon Maiden um we were like doing more we were trying like to solve the same thing but from different angles and different things and we start to work together and and work together it's like okay I mean we set up some good economic incentives and some good framework for collaboration so it's like okay you just want to solve of the problem and you just start talking with each other in a transformed way explaining okay we are trying to solve this this way we are trying to solve this that way we took all the technology from polygon zero or the all the Goldilocks or the plonky two and all these amazing recursion a lot of uh Innovation that was in there we took all the all the maiden I mean all the arithmetization or the knowledge of Stark and on on there we were of course in in Hermits we were continue working and and we where during these two years has been like all these original problems that we start and many more that came later were just solving them fine-tuning them finding the right solution uh going One Direction seeing okay maybe this is there is a better way let's just move it and move it in the other direction a lot of prototyping and here we were able also to hire an amazing team was people that I could I mean when you have a good funding and when you have a good uh thing you can you can find the right people and you can convince to the project it was a clear project I mean for me was and it's it's important I mean it's the most important project for Miss honor uh it's a honor to be in this project so I took the best people that I knew in my history some of them from even from outside uh the blockchain and we have to build it and I put the best people that I know as a team to to to to to create that and has been a solving challenge after Challenge and from engineering solving challenges is the best thing satisfying so it's satisfying and it was like every week we had like two three challenges so it has been like working really hard uh highly motivated uh not a big team but I mean good enough team to create uh all that and during these two years has been a day and night working but enjoying a lot uh at the same time and well we created a polygon the polygon ckvm I mean this is a factor this is a reality right now from at this point three data centers to now it's sorry for us too long but no I mean if anything this is just a round of applause for just the amount of amazing progress they've made in such a small time I remember a year ago people thought zkvms would be crazy because uh just everybody looks at it from the constraints like this is not possible and and where we are um so um it is extremely impressive that we've been able to get here and the best part to me is now it falls into okay we know we can do it and now people can just assume this exists and they can just build on it not worry about it and that's the world where I want to be in because that's the only way you get to actually see people build things that are interesting and useful to to them and the people that they care about um and uh I want to focus on that so ZK VMS uh definitely a dark horse moment but polygon or originally Matic kind of has been around as a proof of stake chain for for a handful of years and recently you kind of talked about and announced your transition to polygon 2.0 uh so maybe my first question will be kind of from a slightly technical standpoint on just what's different uh what's uh what's uh 2.0 and uh and kind of what should people really know about and take away from this yeah uh thanks uh polygon 2.0 is I would say a radical overhaul of of polygon technology and the point of convergence first and foremost in my in my personal opinion of everything we have done so far so when we started polygon we knew that we want to build this infinitely scalable platform of web free to scale ethereum to to achieve mainstream adoption or Global adoption that that was clear and it was clear that it's going to be some sort of multi-chain multi-layer 2 Paradigm that was kind of obvious everything else was kind of blurry unclear still we wanted to experiment with all meaningful scaling approaches with the and we have done that so far from plasma to side chains to to Roll-Ups to validiums uh we experimented with multiple client development efforts multiple ZK efforts as a door dimensioned uh we intentionally encourage this kind of uh um Innovation we were aware that this is very early stage of this industry and this architecture and infrastructure is is very complex and we intentionally allow that kind of period of Divergence I would say for this kind of almost two years where we had this really multiple approaches and encouraged different we're talking about your experiments on unscaling with different exactly exactly like all all these efforts and the the downside the small downside of that is that people often have been confused so far why are you doing so much what's the purpose why we have this many seven evm strategy KVM strategies at a time is that the right number like I think so I think so I'm not sure uh yeah anyways uh we really wanted that period of kind of Divergence and exploration and and slowly we started converging things became more obvious we are along the way we realized that as Jordy said what was highly uncertain the practicality and viability of zkavm it became obvious that it's very much viable and very much practical with the current level of uh heat transfer approving costs of 0.

40 8.85 dollars so zero dollars four zero eight five it's practically is insignificant kind of for practical purposes so to say so um we slowly started converging towards something and that something is polygon 2.0 it's first and foremost this technological or or protocol stack that we're proposing that has four different layers uh one is the staking layer where the the validators of the ecosystem lived on top of it its interoperability layer I would say one of a kind and hopefully game changing interoperability layer I'm not sure how much we can go into that uh how much time we have on top of it is the execution layer which is pretty commoditized layer like with any blockchain it just produces blocks correlates transactions just this standard blockchain things and on top of that is this also one of a kind kind of prover layer or ZK layer that we're very proud of with highly performant I mean the best in the industry uh approver which is splunky 2 with plunky three being around the corner with significant improvements over plonky 2 which is still the industry-leading improver on top of it we have a DSL language that the dirty has has built another language it's not already built over over some free weekends and we use it practically to Define zkevm it's polynomial identity language we are now uh Jordan is working on pill 2 and there is also part of the a group uh that previously was ethereum Foundation that works on something similar which is called powder and we're exploring potentially collaboration we're potentially very excited about it and basically it can we really believe that that prover layer can become kind of the standard for ZK virtual machine definition when you have the basically the most performed and prover in the industry on top of that that virtual machine defining a framework and on top of that you can build any virtual machines EK VM that we already have mid and VM that we're working on is already going to be built on top of this DSL DK awesome and anything basically so so all in all this is like sorry it's like that one Consolidated stack that is the result of this exploration process that have been lasted for like two years practically and that is moving forward the north star of of polygon into in terms of technology and we're after all this exploration we are now very confident that this is the way to go and this architecture can support mainstream adoption without sacrificing security and still fully relying on ethereum and all so all in all it's mainly architectural kind of consolidation and and and the public commitment to this uh this technological stack so to say yeah sorry yeah but uh I want to add about the your specific question about polygon POS uh chain right like so I mean from the very start we have always been very clear that this is uh this is not a side chain like currently that's the technology that is possible but then we are going to make it a layer two we are extremely theorem aligned and this sometimes it makes me emotional sometimes it makes me angry also because you know sometimes random people on Twitter who have done nothing for ethereum they would question my loyalty right like you know who I think I've been on the forefronts when Whenever there is a competitive pressure on ethereum and things like that and but that has been a promise forever like you know from our side that we are going to convert it into a layer 2 only and now that the technology is available all the other chains are also like the the app change that we launched we already you know have spun out the polygon ZK VM supernet stack as you saw like gnosis pay and uh you know idex and so many Protocols are launching on those uh ZK VM based app chains and the goal is to you know make this infinitely growing uh trustless compute layer which can you know which which will have decentralization on many of the chains to offer censorship resistance and all that but then all of this the set settlement and the security provided by ethereum that was Ultimate that was the ultimate goal and we will keep progressing towards that there is uh you know no question on that absolutely and if anything like I don't think you should have to say that the work you've done and just kind of moving the space for from from just even the tech and the cryptographic kind of contributions uh speaks for that so um that's amazing so would it be fair to say that uh kind of from your perspective Cindy kind of the attempts we're seeing on the op stack or the ZK stack and and just other kind of ways people thinking about the app specific world uh that's complementary not competitive or kind of how do you feel that long-term overlaps with uh polygons vision yeah I mean I at the end of the day we all are vying for the same thing that you know the security provided by ethereum Chain ethereum main chain the value probably generates or the basically we are all creating this value layer of internet right and that value needs to have a very very strong and decentralized basis which is ethereum right and then you know that when you are generating millions of billions of dollars of value you are storing that value on this uh you know on this web 3 internet or this internet of value it is guarded in the the guidelines are extremely extremely strong in the form of ethereum so all of us are doing the same thing in the in that longer vision and it's about like you know these different different approaches we are working on our approaches obviously as researchers Engineers Builders we believe that our approach is better some of the similar people might believe the same but I think it's more about uh you know uh traction and network effects what technology is available today I think from polygon side we strongly believe that our stack is ready today like there's no like you know we most of the research problems for from our side have been solved it's more about the engineering stack is available today you can launch your ZK chains today there is no future promises or anything like that so in that sense yes we we feel that you know this is a this is a more viable stack currently but then eventually many of these other you know other Stacks this is this will become more and more commoditized and at the end of the day what we are focused on this this interoperability layer which allows all the chains to settle into ethereum but also be seamlessly interoperable the way the internet is uh Opera interoperable today so so yeah in that sense it's not competitive the mission is the same for everyone and we are we cheer for everyone from the sidelines whoever is working on this Mission no it's amazing um you said something super interesting so I understand the value layer argument of the internet that means we're seeing you know where different worlds kind of exist there are kind of community specific app specific overall just kind of adjacent sometimes or sometimes on top um how does interacting with these things work with each other you kind of I think the blog post talked about the concept supernets like what is that how do you kind of transfer value between these these worlds and uh what's like a good intuition about how this would work in 2.0 let me first try a simplistic definition of that and then you know maybe hello or Jordy can take a more technical version of it but basically it's it's very simple like we are imagining a multi-chain vault where you know everybody you if you are a college student in dorm room you can spin up your own chain and have like probably potentially millions of dollars of value on that but then at the end you are proving everything using ZK proofs to ethereum and in for the faster you know collaboration between each other you are you know proving to this interop layer which is consolidating all the ZK proofs and putting it back on ethereum so so all of the chains don't have to put back on ethereum because again otherwise it becomes super costly right and just it's like this is not the same as recursion this is recursion okay all of the chains submit there and this recursively gets combined if you go deeper even all of the proofs are also recursively being generated so right it's kind of the fractal movement of uh that GK proves being generated and the moment all these chains have their ZK proofs on the interoperability layer let's say I am on chain number 100 and you are on ZK VM or I want to I am playing a game with immutable X for example who's moving over completely they're stack to this technology uh they there you I'm playing some game and I made thousand dollars in that game tokens and I want to you know convert them into usdt on ZK AVM I can do one single transaction the moment this chain submits the proof back on this aggregate layer ZK evm already knows that this chain has submitted zkvm so it does not matter it has one sequencer multiple sequencer a big reputed sequence so it doesn't matter because DK proof is there so you can trust on the incoming cross chain transaction and as the ZK proving technology is improving you would be able to have this interoperability probably in 20 seconds 30 seconds time in the next 12 to 18 months and then it's like ethereum level composability across chain smart contracts that's the that's the end game and we are like 80 percent is built out of that already like you can do it this cross chain availability although is available today Geordie already one more weekend he built this we built this lxly bridge so where now the ZK chains can already communicate between each other without going to ethereum so you can transfer 100 hundred dollars from chain number one to chain number two without exiting to ethereum this is already built out now this interop layer is going to speed it up right to the to the tune of seconds so that's yeah that's the view Jody there's a hackathon happening tomorrow till Monday in case you want to solve scalability this weekend I used to do I like to do uh one hackathon a year at least I think that any developer should do it uh even for I mean it's a kind of a training and uh hackathons are very good just to do something that is different something that you will not do it and just do some proof of concept so here I invite I think it's any developer to to to to do a hackathon a year I think this is for me it's a must Jordy has made it mandatory in his team that you have to travel one conference a year so that you get the ethos of web3 and all that and participate in akathon so your whole team still participate yeah I'm always you know fighting with a manage menu so you are bringing a lot of people to the conferences but we have 56 people here we are like Jordy 56 months for me I mean I don't want to have developers that are Lab Rats I mean I I want that any developer that's in my team knows and understands what's building and uh for me that all developers at least once a year goes to a some uh Community or Dev conference is a must I mean I I force them I mean if the if the if polygon will not pay they will pay it I mean I don't care this they they must go there is uh uh it's a must uh uh for me I don't understand uh Engineers that are disconnected of the world I'm a bit biased but I support this decision we all three are paying and we are paying only a lot of things from personally no that's great I mean that's the only way you can uh empathize with kind of what actually matters to people and uh and decides to kind of focus on things that you may not realize were actually more important even if they were not super hard uh maybe maybe just to expand just for one minute on the cross chain cross train thing is something something explained very well the the high level kind of the the and I won't go too deep but um this this interoperability protocol that we're proposing is I have been always passionate about cross-chain communication multi-changed systems this is multi-layer to uh ecosystem and it was kind of obvious for some time that this is the way to go but how to interconnect uh these these uh um chains in in a scalable and globally secure way that has always been the question to the best of my knowledge this is the first I mean it's always a serious claim when you say this is the first this is this or whatever but but uh just quick retrospect so the cross chain communication we have IBC type Cosmos type of cross chain communication that has its uh known downsides in terms of the the ecosystem is as secure as the weakest kind of security chain in the ecosystem for obvious reasons then you have change interchange communication systems like polkadot which are Global ecosystems which is great property but they can't scale because you have a single chain that's transferring these messages you have multi-layer 2 ecosystems where you have this concept of share sequencers which are great but they can also not scale because you can scale that to three five chains but if you have 100 chains share secrets around nodes for for each of the chains and that cannot scale and with by leveraging ZK and this basic concept of lxly bridge we are able to to finally offer something that is scalable and globally ensured globally secured even with it's a great and that's a big yeah and we're very excited to share more about it the Deep dice are coming in the following weeks or each of those layers of the stick so I guess but while we're at it uh can you also explain the the new Pol token and sort of where does that come into play why'd you have to introduce it what does that mean for somebody yeah yeah of course so so native token is integral is an integral part of every blockchain protocol and I I personally love tokens I I'm kind of it's It's fascinating it's like one of the most fascinating things about this whole web free industry and and the native token of Bitcoin BTC what what it does in terms of coordinating a network globally distributed network of people who don't know each other there's no legal uh wants jurisdiction nothing there's there's no management but all these thousands of people are doing meaningful work in an online manner just because of the existence of this token and the network got bootstrapped without external funding and then the same thing with ethereum like tokens are a huge game changer and uh yeah we have it we have known since we started polygon that the initial token of uh of metic network which is was used as a POS token for the polygon ps10 which was the only chain it will eventually have to be upgraded uh to to support this new New Vision that that we have but we knew that what I said in the beginning we have to consolidate on the tech stack we have to consolidate all the architecture and only then it makes sense to actually design and propose and that's the convergency we're referring to exactly all the experiments exactly so now when we know what we want to build we have alignment we converge towards a specific architecture protocol stack we are also proposing to the to the polygon Community this upgraded native token we're very excited about it because of this multi-fold utility and I now if you want to go into that tour we can or oh yeah I mean I think uh hello like I think that the the the the the the third generation mechanism that you were talking like I think yes sure sure we can cover briefly so um we believe that this poll proposal is what we call the third generation native protocol token which we call hyper productive asset this meme is seems to be picking up already but the point is with the uh you have assets like Bitcoin which we consider kind of although extremely important as I said uh um we consider it kind of a legacy design of of native tokens and we called uh call it unproductive asset because it does not allow its holders any role in the protocol it's a BTC holder you can just hold basically or hold and and you cannot participate in the protocol you cannot help secure the network you cannot generate any kind of or secure any incentives by doing that um ethereum comes along with a complete Game Changer which is POS and productive asset where you can actually use the token to become a validator to perform meaningful work in the protocol and we believe now that polygon is kind of innovating further in that sense given that it's a multi-layer tool ecosystem you take full tokens you become a validator but with two major differences you can validate multiple chains you can validate arbitrary number of chains thus generating multiple incentive streams and you can perform multiple roles on every chain so you can be a validator in that kind of narrow sense where you call a transactions produce blocks thus extending the chain you can be approver for any specific chain you can participate in data availability committee that is validium and and so on so we believe this can really be a next kind of iteration when it comes to Native uh protocol tools super interesting huh and I assume a lot of that is also explained in the blog post so others can uh read the rest and yeah there is intro blog post as well as the white paper very simple like in protocol you have staking Hub you stick just once economic values taked once and after that you can do whatever with that like you subscribe to chains subscribe to data availability nodes whatever you want to do prove us that's the main concept right um I want to switch gears a little bit um polygon is known for having a really killer PD team uh what's uh what's the secret and uh like kind of why do you think uh you're so effective and is there some advice you can give to uh teams here to uh to be more successful even though it may not be in your best interest we'll try it anyway yeah I mean I get these questions as the very much but I think like okay so I want to say one abstract thing and then to uh you know maybe some applicable things also abstract thing is that that you know like our team because the the mission for the for our team was always as I said that Jordy when when we met Jordy Jordi was like this ZK evm is the project of my life like you know either I build this or I die building this right that that was kind of did he say that or did you say that I don't know we told him that my my vision is I want to take web3 mainstream right like sometimes like I mean I don't know how far we are whether uh you know we are how far we are away from 100 million users in web3 maybe uh you know five seconds I would say two years that's a joke from the audience yeah maybe two years I don't know like but but I'm saying that's my mission then I either I do that or I you know Die Trying that's same way so I think because once that mission is there like you know so so the DNA of the team starts getting created in that way and then like you know some some uh I don't know who philosopher was that he said that if you are good at something it's very hard to explain why you are good at that that thing right because if you can explain it it is replicable so I think now it is a part of the DNA itself everybody uh everybody is a BD like you know that in that large stream they'll see oh this this guy is doing this they will connect to somebody in the in the biz team and they will work out and all that um and then this mainstream obviously is something where we feel that you know not today like in the in the bear markets but then the when the markets really start seeing what all is happening like what these uh you know Starbucks or reddits and all these people are doing and this is going to like sometimes I'm in Uber and I asked the Uber driver about the Starbucks and he said yeah yeah I have this app and on this app now I can buy nfts and he got introduced into crypto using first getting into those nfts and all that so these kind of stories are slowly happening and they will keep happening but the uh you know up on the implementation side like I mean how you can implement it in a non-abstract abstract way is first you do like you know this part like try to cultivate that DNA that you want really uh you are you're working for the adoption of this technology because in web 3 many of the times we get stuck in these small time speculative games and you know like just make it this and then tokens and there is like you know the token value accrual and all those things so if you build your DNA and if you are here for the long term like you want to stay here for five ten years then build that DNA for the long term uh as as mihalo and me say like you know think globally act locally so you know you have to stay relevant also in the local environment but also have a larger Vision on the uh this thing and cultivate the DNA the second part is that you know again people keep telling me like how are you able to do these you know these big deals and this and that so many Partnerships and you know like many of the times sales and BD people they would go and they will try to play that deal like you know like somehow convince the other guy like and that way you can only do like few deals after that everybody realizes that you're full of yeah this is like you are just doing it for your own uh you know benefits and all that and so sales doesn't work for me like my mantra for for all these Partnerships is I just when I start the meeting I open my cards I say this this this this is what I want from this this is why I am doing it I don't explain them what's in it for you I've first clean it what's in it for me this is my card this is why I'm doing it this is what is it what I can contribute to you you will get it and after that if that's a win-win it will work out and I and and culturally we have this 5149 rule where we say that if we are getting into a partnership the partner will always get more value from this partnership than we getting that value out of it like that is also a part of DNA and then automatically then when these things are win-win it's much easier to do those deals like when you go with the mindset of like okay how can my partner win with this deal then you will uh you know end up doing but that's actually very practical amazing advice um this is great and also actually uh this is how I would personally describe the definition of a successful platform uh the people who are on top of the platform benefit way more than the platform itself and uh that's your equation for for Success um I'm seeing a lot of consensus amongst all three of you here uh what do you use on the surface what do you disagree with each other on okay so what one thing like you know with I uh you know disagree with behalo very uh this thing and we keep discussing is that so polygon was this you know Underdog for last three four years and all that in the last two years it became the mainstream protocol and all that and we see like again it's uh it's it's it's basically some of the you know wrong narratives being spread wrong things being spread and all that and I am like okay should we respond to these things uh publicly and mihilos of the opinion that no no we should we are like a now big protocol we should not like you know even respond to this just keep doing our good work and all that but I again like uh that the thing globally and act locally like I was thinking because this industry is still a lot about narratives like you know people just see those tweets they don't go deep what is happening inside right so should should we be responding about that or should we be like you know just playing our game and then uh you know doing he used to give me the example of apple and I gave him a lot of examples of Steve Jobs where he used to like you know actively in this iPhone presentation he shows like Blackberry this this like you know so that is one of the big debates that we are these days having so even this morning so I remember that there's so many like so many things that we disagree on really like I I don't know I can probably name 10 10 examples or 15 but it's like I would say a very normal thing and especially now when we have Jordy as a equal founder and then people from zero and Anthony and like these meetings are very productive there's a lot of disagreements on these meetings but I I see that this kind of collective intelligence so to say what what happens because eventually we always align uh so but there's so many disagreements like I disagree on the approach to sorry to to approach to maybe adoption sometimes Sandeep sees the potential in gaming for example Enterprises Brandon one of the founders he really doesn't like the Enterprise I I am kind of from people I mean probably in favor because I see the potential for wider adoption like we disagree on so many things but we have a lot of the best the thing is that we understand that each each of us has its own role its own knowledge and we respect the the spatial I mean you know we talk about BD I mean we're watching the talk about technical things like watch me or they watch Brendan and I mean uh it's depending we talking strategy I mean it's everyone has like its own space we respect one each other we listen one each other we know that we are very different I mean we come with very different cultures uh from many countries uh many even ways to think but we have in common that we have a lot of respect that we hear a lot when each other we are trying to all the conversations become very rational I mean just trying to analyze everything from the different points of course there are disagreements there are different ways to see the things but at the end of the day uh um we have some some we understand the other so we haven't shared values go a long way exactly and this is this has been working really well uh I mean for the last at least since we are in polygon here so keep joking that apart from Jody being this like a like you know one of the best programmers in the space and all that he's also kind of a psychologist or psychiatrist see how deeply he had he nailed it down that is because of the respect to handle this disagreement anything started noticed I didn't answer the question so yeah yeah so I mean it's it's he's something else he's the spirit of Hollywood like he's the spirit spiritual Guru of oligon I for me also like you know I see him he's about public goods freedom for people and all that because of his background of you know uh Spain and Catalonia and all those things so uh but uh what was the what was the thing I was saying is that yes yes so uh I was saying like even with Mark like now I have a mark is that now the CEO of polygon labs and all that and we actually celebrate it being proven wrong like you know this is also a culture which we are cultivating that where like there's a separate group in this male leadership group and where we say okay I was wrong and we celebrate like the guy who is wrong he celebrates like I'm happy to be proven wrong and two three times this says this has happened and then when I say yeah I mean this I was wrong here this is a great thing culture yeah again practical way to manage disagreements in your companies oh I won't push you further Jordy but this is a good time to end I want to thank all three of you for taking the time and sharing us some some insights on polygon 2.0 thank you so much thank you everyone