Insights From the Frontier of RWAs and DeFi | European Blockchain Convention

[Music] hi everyone thanks for having us here thanks for being so numerous in that first panel my name is G chatan I work for societ General Forge as head of sales U societ General Forge is a fully owned subsidiary of the bank societ General uh we're dedicated to digital assets and I've been tokenizing security such as bonds and structur products since 2020 and I think that puts me in a good place to to be moderating that panel uh before that I've been in the blockchain space for quite some time and I've been tokenizing Structured Products uh since 2017 uh basically doing some rwa before rwa was even a name um so I have two uh co-panelist here uh with me amazing Founders I'll let you introduce yourselves uh if you can introduce uce yourselves talk a little bit about what your company is doing in the rwi rwa space and then we start taking it from there uh thank you g uh yeah so just a quick intro to myself so um as gim mentioned we were involved uh in tokenization in the early days uh I was uh tokenizing even before the concept forget about rwas but even before the concept of token existed um in 2013 I don't know if anyone remembers colored coins uh it was a a protocol developed on top of La Bitcoin and you could actually tokenize things on bitcoin transactions and we did uh some of the first Securities on bitcoin and cash and using multisig uh to do uh delivery versus payment after that I developed a company in tokenization one of the first regulated brod dealers and custodians in Europe um and we did a lot of tokenization from 2016 to 2021 after I sold that uh I started to work with in this current company which is the the next generation of tokenization infrastructure to allow essentially the convergence of tokens for security tokens with the defi infrastructure that's emerging now in the industry hi guys my name is pi ridard I am the CEO of RDX Works RDX works is a COR developer of the rad protocol rad is a layer one focusing specifically on decentralized Finance we took a fundamentals approach where we said okay if defi is actually going to start eating the world of traditional Finance you have to be able to First have an infrastructure on which is suitable to do that uh and we sort of looked around the crypto space and we went well nothing is scalable enough nothing is secure enough and nothing actually creates an end user experience that everyday people could actually interact with and so we built our own technology stack from the ground up our own consensus our own execution environment our own programming language and our own user interfaces uh to basically build infrastructure that we thought was actually suitable for mainstream Finance to be built on top of so that went live in September of last year uh and since then we've started the process of building out our institutional um uh focused products uh the first of which we've already announced which is a product called anic uh which allows you to bring the liquidity of any asset in any ecosystem across to the radic platform and essentially allow the mirroring of liquidity on any secondary Market to be mirrored onto the radic network so that you can make sure that you can Empower things like liquidation so you can make sure that you can make sure that you can on a single platform be able to use all the assets that you want to be able to bring into defi onto the radic network um and we've also now started to look at real world assets because obviously once you can mirror liquidity of any secondary Market uh environment on top of a single layer and you can program assets around that the next thing you start looking at is going well what kind of assets can you bring to bear within a defi environment how can you start to bring some of these more real world Assets in and what kind of real world assets are actually most useful to use within defi in the first place so that's us cool thank you uh question for AAR uh your company has been uh funded by some of the largest trfi institutions on the planet thinking of like bravano digital laser digital which is backed by nura um how do you consider rwa in the in the defi space uh and how can you you define it like simply and and please let us understand like what is big companies like see about this and how do do they feel about like you doing entering to that space yeah thanks G and uh yeah it's an interesting one because um in the early days you know I'm sure everybody heard of the the phrase that institutions utilize like blockchain not Bitcoin and there's still some institutions that sort of take that approach where crypto is not the way forward the the blockchain is you know and I think I think those institutions they going to change and that that that mentality is Shifting for sure uh because ultimately crypto on its own cannot exist and blockchain on its own cannot exist crypto is a fundamental component of securing the network but then once you have the network and it's secured by crypto uh ultimately what can you do on that decentralized infrastructure uh and this is the concept where majority of these institutions are now starting to understand and uh you know the the likes of sh genen you know what you're part of and laora and these large organizations they get that that fundamentally uh you can't separate the two things you can't separate cryptocurrencies and blockchain however what you can do is bring some of the traditional infrastructure now on chain and that infrastructure which has the logic and the computational capability to build operational capability on that to be able to issue and distribute these more traditional assets so this is the way they see it they say okay we've got all these offchain operations and systems and applications can we take our assets and just use this decentralized infrastructure and get rid of everything else we've got and just allow the distribution of our assets through here they get that and then the step that I've taken with them I said okay rather than trying to do what everybody else tries to do where you issue an instrument and you try to get your existing clients to purchase it why don't we take a slightly different approach why don't we go for the crypto natives why don't we actually take your assets and Supply them to people who actually have the wealth on chain that's the perspective that they're taking they're saying okay let's go for a whole new market we've got a whole new technology we've got a whole new market opportunity we're in this quadrant let's try to Target that let's try to access that and just to show you how quickly that the interest has taken up is we only launched this infrastructure in March this year in four months we've gone from Z to 150 million AUM and we'll talk a bit about this later but ultimately it's like working on networks like predex who provide uh utility for these kinds of assets is why this uptake is is being taken up because just holding these assets yeah fine you you might save a few Paces points here and there but it's due to all the utility that's provided by collateralized lending on uh infrastructure Li prodcts or amm Etc and then utilizing these assets on those infrastructures is where the real utility comes in and where the advantage for firms like namora sogen etc for issuing these assets on chain comes in I think what you just mentioned the very important piece that everybody should remember is collateralized lending uh I think it's an amazing use case for what we we're doing here uh as you all know the first big use case for crypto was speculation um the second big use case I see it as uh the stable coin tokenizing money being able to transfer that money like 24/7 cross B very cheaply uh but rwaa and rwa convergence with defi is probably like a third use case that is super important um one question here uh we've seen defi uh applications with uh crypto uh underlying BTC East uh what is like rwa plus defi uh adding to uh to to the game uh is it about liquidity is about risk management how do you see that like personally and how do you see that playing over the longer term ultimately it's about composability like the the reason that a public Ledger is powerful versus a Consortium chain that we saw the banks get involved in in sort of 2017 era um is that when you have a public Ledger anyone can come along and can build any application that they want to and then the assets that you create on top of that public Ledger can then be moved between any of those applications so as you said the first most powerful use case um for crypto with speculation and then it was stable coins but the reason that stable coins were powerful in defi is because you had a single object that represented value that could be moved between applications so I could take my usdt and I could swap it on Unis swap but if I didn't want to use Unis swap anymore I could go swap it on Sushi swap if I didn't want to use Sushi swap anymore I could go and lend it out on arve if I didn't want to use arve anymore I could go and use Pendle or something like that so what you get is you get these Financial Primitives which are competing for value and that value can move instantaneously between any of these applications so I often think about these platforms a little bit like the the starting of the internet the power of the internet was that any entrepreneur could come along and they could put up a website and they were competing for attention on the internet for traffic on the internet and that traffic can move at a moment's notice you could just on your own home go to any website in the world instantaneously and that attention will move there on the basis of Merit and then the basis of marketing what you're seeing in public Ledges web 3 and defi is this ability for Capital to be able to move instantaneously between any opportunity that exists and within crypto you've seen that happen time time again within defi a new asset a new PL platform a new application goes live and suddenly within a few weeks it has billion dollars under management that doesn't happen in traditional Finance but it does happen in Defi and the reason it happens in defi is because of the ease of moving Capital between any of these applications and this open forum for Innovation and the ability for people to come along and build something that normally would take a bulge bracket Investment Bank to be able to build it you then apply that to real world assets you start to bring some of the $400 trillion um Global Financial Market assets to defi you create these objects in common that you can move between Financial um applications and suddenly you have the recipe for an an immense shift in the kind of products that can be offered and how quickly people can innovate in the space and then as a result how efficiently cap can be allocated like you now suddenly have a Level Playing Field for a competition where you can radically reduce the intermediation fees that you see you can radically reduce the cost of holding and you can make it much easier to allocate Capital across a very large number of products and services that previously you would have to onboard painfully and slowly with multiple different financial institutions thanks uh amazing answer um I heard collateralized Landing I'm hearing everything goes faster with blockchain technology um I would just summarize that as like increasing velocity of money um good use of capital increasing velocity of money which are Super interesting things as you all know if you remember your economics days at school increasing velocity of money is supposed to increase GDP increase the wealth of everybody and that's one of the reasons why I'm personally in in that space as well I mean it's not g it doesn't NE necessarily in increased GDP if you're only moving Capital assets around the increased velocity of money within an economy is around spending right cons consumption this is allocation of capital but what we hope what you would hope is that the increased veloc the the the ability to more efficiently allocate Capital should lead to an increase in investment in companies that are creating value within economies I I absolutely agree with that after 10 years of like allocating money to zombie companies uh hopefully blockchain can change that as well uh maybe we switch gear a little bit uh talk a little bit about the the technology and Regulatory challenges uh after you're the CEO of your company you're also the chief product uh architect um can you tell us a little bit about the technology barriers that you're seeing for rwa development uh rwa and defi development yeah actually the technology side um is a an area of interest for me because um I mean my role before I got into crypto was I I was a physicist then I became a Quant and I was in that area for about 10 years of my life ifra got into crypto so I have this unique perspective of understanding the financial Market at a technical level but also developing technology to manage those kinds of assets as well and then uh going into crypto seeing how everybody was trying to reinvent the wheel again and again including not understanding uh that certain rules existed for certain reasons um and you know we saw that from the very beginning but I think the the role is Shifting I mean everyone's now starting to understand the challenges or you know you can't just issue something like a like you know what they call icos and you know everything's going to be fine unfortunately human nature takes over greed comes in and all of these kinds of problems can occur uh and you know the financial markets saw this kind of thing for hundreds of years and that's why all the rules and stuff were in place and then there's complexities around jurisdictions because it's not just about human nature specifically but it's about different cultures or uh locations structuring their regulatory uh requirements in certain ways depending on what their e economy's needs are country's needs are Etc so there's a variety of of differences in terms of how do you prevent fraud how do you prevent and people taking advantage and how do you ensure that you can follow the rules of a particular jurisdiction Etc so there's huge amount of complexity in issuing an asset so understanding where an asset is coming from that's the first thing and what you can do with the asset where you can distribute it who can hold it um what they have to do with it if they hold it can they trade it can they do all of the legal complexity that's associated with issuing the asset so that's essentially in the contract that underpins uh the security then on the other side is depending on the location where that contract is being issued from you have to follow the rules and regulations of the country ultimately um these are the kinds of people that can hold only these kinds of assets and you can't sell these kinds of Assets in our country from anywhere else etc etc so the regulation is a separate part as well so when you as PE was saying like if if you're creating this infrastructure on chain where you can freely like move assets of ground you can plug them into this uh amm you can plug them into this collateralized lending Vault and utilize all these Services seamlessly essentially at a click of a button that's the future but what about ensuring that if I do that and some and I sell this asset to somebody but that person is in a jurisdiction that should not be able to hold that asset so all these kinds of complexities come in so from our perspective when we were developing the product the thing that we wanted to focus on was can you ensure that in the token a standard token you can encode in information around the legal side of the issuance what is this asset where is it being issued and who can actually hold this asset and then on the other side have a passport type thing where understanding who the holders are what jurisdiction they're coming from the type of investor etc etc and then we've got this this matching engine as you you know you can call it that connects the assets to the types of users once that Foundation is in place you can then create that asset in a standard form on herex infrastructure for example and allow that to be utilized in collateralized lending and all we do in the background is ensure that's issued in the right way it's held in the right way but all the utility then occurs on the infrastructure where it's being distributed that's essentially what we've developed so the infrastructure is here um you you have like all these processes in place to to to get to what you want to achieve um isn't there like this big word called interoperability um is isn't that a challenge and let me explain from my point of view working at societ General Forge we've been exclusively working on public blockchains uh so we're tokenizing Structured Products bonds uh we have a stable coin we recently announced that we would deploy uh these assets on Solana um but we're the only Bank almost to to do that on public blockchains other asset issuers would do that on say onyx private blockchains iper Ledger and so on lots of different blockchains uh how do you manage to to put all these together cuz you need to create a real marketplace right if you if you want to be successful so I think I think it starts with the issuer like what you guys are doing already in terms of going we are going to deploy these assets natively on each of these chains uh when you have when you have any asset that is represented by the need for there to be an identified legal owner uh in the event you know in in funds in equities in whatever you always need to have someone who is the ultimate Authority as to what that token represents on Ledger as soon as you have that which is stable coins is the easiest version of that to represent then you have a issuer who can choose where that token is issued and they can issue it on any Ledger that they want and then they can also make it interoperable because all all someone needs to do is go hey I'm sending you this asset on ethereum I now want it on salana I think the much bigger problem and like I want to say a huge congratul for you guys getting it past the business prevention units of the of of your bank um for by that I'm talking about compliance um the the difficulty that we see and the reason that most financial institutions are still going down the hyperledger route or the R3 quarter route or whatever is because that's where we've got to in being able to convince the compliance departments that it's okay to issue well it's okay to issue it here because we have full control over everything we're able to put our arms around it and um back in the early days of the internet uh there there was a conviction amongst uh institutions or amongst companies that intranets were going to be the thing intranet was the thing not internet Because the Internet was scary and anyone could access it and you if you put your server anyone can interact with your server and what happens if Russian hackers come along and all this kind of stuff but what what was what became true was that by having an open platform for Innovation that ultimately won out again against closed systems which is why internets no one really talks about anymore and people only talk about the internet so the biggest problem that most institutions have to get over is actually a risk-based approach to being able to go yes we can issue on a public Ledger and that's okay and uh from an interoperability point of view once you've got to that then your interoperability from the point of view of issuing rwas that have some legal basis in the real economy that has to have some owner that's represented that that's not the hard that's it doesn't become hard anymore you're just doing what tether is doing you're just doing what usdc is doing and you're issuing natively and allowing bridging that's not difficult the most difficult thing is the compliance problem and getting PE and getting institutions to build on public Ledges and not private Ledges you have something to add after yeah absolutely agree with that I think you know once you solve that compliance issue uh everything else technically is solvable like you know once we've solved this compliance issue we want to get these assets on to all the chains and ultimately allow utility to develop on top of that I I I agree with all that but there are some caveats I'll share my experience uh when I started working in the RWS space in 2017 I applied to the FCA sandbox I was very amazed to see like the regulator how aware they they they were and and the questions they they were asking uh there was a lot of Education to be done uh but they were very business friendly um when I joined SG Forge uh 6 months ago um there were also lots of discussions with compliance and I'm personally amazed with like how well versed they are into the space we've been EV evolving in in that space since 2020 they understand how the onchain analytics are working they're asking the right questions and obviously when you're 160 year old Bank like AML kyc something that is STP of mine and it's something that you cannot miss you cannot fail there um but I see it's like a lot about education and do you see your role as Founders in that space as like educating well your clients but also educating the issuers going to educate the big institutions yeah I mean I could take the education one as well I think that's a common question for both of us really because I mean for from our perspective um education is fundamental I mean you know um I operated with the FCA sandbox I work with Regulators in other jurisdiction as well you're absolutely right The Regulators are quite well vered they're very technologically savvy nowadays they're not obviously there's the more traditional side of the regulator The Regulators but the Innovation teams you know they are quite well vered they understand these things and sometimes it's not just about getting them over the line about understanding it's about the friction and the inertia of okay what if something goes wrong and we're seen as the first people who blind finally accepted it and something goes wrong and then we're going to be seen as the idiots on the world stage and I think nobody wants to be seen as uh they were the first and they failed but ultimately you know this is why everybody plays uh the wait and see game you you know let somebody else go first and see what happens having operating in this Bas since 2013 for the first 5 years we couldn't get any institution to issue any instrument but then the issuers became more educated and they said okay the risks for us as an issuer are minimal and they understood that and they they accepted the risks they controlled for the risks and and we helped them actually do that where the real challenge actually happened is educating the the pi side the the distribution side investors the traditional side of investors they are very risk averse in terms of don't want to go and hold these assets through a crypto custodian they don't understand any of that they've got their custodians they they operate through cstds they understand their infrastructure all they care is about managing their portfolio and they want to hold Assets in a traditional way educating them to the cow's come home you're not going to get them to shift huge amount of assets from the existing portfolio to this new form of Investments even if it is the same identical asset because ultimately for them it's an extra overhead extra headache and they're going to have to explain it to their clients or their seniors and it's just going to add extra cost for them so that shift is going to take some time so as a result for us we're not wasting too much time in that education we're focused on Crypton native organizations uh foundations chains startups other organizations that already operate on the networks and they want to manage their entire Treasury and portfolio on chain they want to access to tools like calized landing and um uh automated Market making on chains these are our clients right now so you're letting me do the the hard work from from within I I think I think look like why do these institutions care about crypto in the first place they care about crypto in the first place because of the opportunity right like crypto is now a multi-trillion dollar asset class um and you're you know you three years ago you would well no 10 years ago you would say to a bank hey I want you to hold Bitcoin and they'd say no way it's for drug dealers there's no way in Earth we could ever go it past the compliance Department fast forward to today and you've got Bitcoin ETFs that are holding billions of dollars of Bitcoin um if you talk to if you spoke four years ago to a hedge fund and said hey we want you guys to borrow via a decentralized Len borrow platform over collateralized Len borrow platform stable coin they go no way we could never get that past our compliance department but now we look at arve and you can borrow usdc at 3% or 4% against collateralized BTC or collateralized eth and suddenly the Hedge fund's going wow I want 4% lending or I want 5% lending so there's two models here one is you go to the institutions and you try and convince them that they should adopt crypto and they're always going to be defensive they'll be like well why why like convince me why or you can focus as you guys are on just carrying on and building the crypto industry and working out ways of sucking in more assets that are able to be used Within These incredible uh applications that we already have on Ledger and within the capital that we already have here it's a multi-trillion dollar industry there's enough Capital here to fundamentally reshape the kind of assets that you can use on top of public Ledger and now we're seeing people like sock genen and we're seeing people like Black Rock coming into the industry because they're recognizing the opportunity and when they come in and say okay now we want to access this tell us how that's an o That's the opportunity for education but before that point I think you're just bashing your head against the brick wall yeah actually you know I just want to add to that because um PE p this thing about uh 2 trillion of assets and that's you know you you hear this number thrown around everywhere where oh you know in about 5 years it's going to be 2 trillion or 30 trillion Etc how are we going to get there and you know ultimately we're going to get there not because these institutions are going to come in ultimately we're going to get there because the onchain wealth is going to increase I believe ultimately uh infrastructure like herex is is probably going to be worth as much as Goldman Sachs or JP Morgan in about 10 years time then uh you know these individual institutions because ultimately this is how this infrastructure is going to develop it's going to develop from the inside out as the wealth comes in the assets start increasing in value we start bringing in a lot more rwa and that's being held by onchain investors the economy starts to develop I think this infrastructure is going to develop separately but over time this infrastructure is going to converge with the traditional infrastructure and they're going to sort of come in at that time there there is going to be convergence and and I have to take a step back compared to what what you both said because I'm on the other side of the fence like I'm working for a bank we're innovating like crazy uh and I believe there's going to be convergence and the convergence is happening in defi um I want to talk about like real use cases if you can share some some of them I'll tell you what SJ and Forge did uh in 2023 U we toonize the bond issued by societ General we um put it on uh on um maker da we borrowed uh D against that Bond we then converted that D into USD and gave it uh back to uh our like a bank societ General uh quite amazing when I read that it was like it's crazy that the bank is doing that uh we were the first there going to be more I think the convergence as I said is happening in defi do you have like I'm sure you have some like real use cases real examples that you can mention yeah I mean I can give one example it was actually publicized just about two months ago uh where for example we were talking to a few chains salana uh was one of the key ones and uh they they mentioned to us look you know uh we've got you know large amount of uh cash uh it's sitting there on shap and ultimately what we would like to do is that we would like to not just put it into money markets everyone's tokenizing money markets you know it's like a a freebie nowadays that you know yeah you want money markets here it is I mean ultimately uh they said we want something a little bit more interesting but no one's tokenizing these assets on on the salana network so if you guys can bring these kinds of assets on chain uh for salana that'd be great so what we had to do is uh we try to look at okay what would it take to deploy essentially uh um private credit hedge fund and other forms of assets as well as the money market onto salana in a way that is seamless now salana is very different to things like ethereum and and you know all the other evm type chains um the reason people always issue assets on evm chains chains is because there's a lot of Precedence there's a lot of code out that you can just create the asset create the token and you can issue it and that's it um we don't just do that we don't just create an erc20 and say okay here's your token in in our infrastructure there is some other logic involved around compliance and checks Etc and we execute all on the up chain and ultimately as soon as all that's executed on the up chain we can then deploy the tokens with certain checks on the main net so with salana you we we looked at uh that token extensions uh um and we within 3 weeks we were able to deploy uh four funds essentially using token extensions and uh we deployed the Black Rock money market that uh and the Hamilton Lane private credit fund and two other hedge funds as well and ultimately within that period they they managed to manage all of their portfolio on chain uh for those assets asss in those assets and they're planning to now utilize this service and open it up to other uh clients and users on the network as well very cool PS any examples you can mention um so uh most of the things that we're working on at the moment in this space we haven't announced yet so I can't actually talk about it um but the uh I think that the most interesting aspect that we're seeing at the moment as a trend is the type of collateral that people are using in Len borrow um so if you look at if you look at collateralized lend borrow um in the traditional space uh if you go on to if you go to your Prime broker and you go I have this I have these equities or I have these funds and I want to be able to borrow against it your Prime broker will be charging you 8 to %. um what you see what you're seeing starting to see in the defi space is that institutions are starting to understand that when you put your assets into a lend borrow platform you're actually receiving interest income you're receiving yield for those assets being available to be lent out as well as being your collateral for borrowing so what you actually get is this pass through effect instead of instead of going to a bank uh where the bank will then lend out on the back end and pass you through basically zero interest or like a token amount of Interest whilst they're earning 89% on lending it out on a defi Market you're able to put in some collateral and that collateral is instantly earning you a return and uh and then you can borrow against that collateral to be able to borrow something else that you want to short-term trade now your your your lend your your cost of borrowing is now reduced by the Lend out rate that you're getting so if I'm paying 9 % to borrow stable coins but I'm earning 5% of my collateral my actual cost of borrowing is now 3% if that collateral is also earning yield so let's say I put it in a money market instrument or something like that and the yield in that money market instrument is 5% I'm now actually getting paid to borrow my entire my entire cost is -2% now as a result of that what you're going to see is some really interesting leveraging leverage products that are going to come out of the Len Bor space you're already seeing this happening within defi the simplest example of that is if you look at arve the biggest two assets that lent borrow are eth and St eth why are they doing that because what people are doing is they are taking their eth they're staking it getting liquid Stak eth which is has a yield associated with it they are putting it on RV they are borrowing eth against that they're turning that into liquid Stak eth and they and they're putting it back back in and they're doing these yield Loops where they're leveraging up yield so a yield product that was only yielding something like 3% is now able to yield something like 20 25% and I think that the more that we're able to create these in these intermediated or these markets where you can essentially compound the value of the collateral against your lower lending costs you're going to start to see some really interesting Structured Products coming out of that that that's interesting uh we'll have to do the mass together uh backstage but can you raise your hand if you're DJ enough to do any of these things that you just mentioned we haven't got any DJ in the audience we got one DJ in the audience two DG three DJ we have yeah we have a long way to go uh that's a good segue to come back to the the piece about education uh fers like how do you feel and and how are you helping educate people like look less than 3% is DJ enough to invest in this type of stres uh how do you see your role what are you doing and what what can I do on my side as well to help so I think from from our perspective we're trying to take a very um pragmatic approach we're not trying to educate the masses we know that these Solutions these Technologies these products are not going to be for everyone today uh the people that we're going for are the more who are developing uh the solutions the companies the technology so how can we provide an embedded solution that somebody is developing for something else so it could be implicit that when their clients come in it's being used underneath so in a way we don't need to sell it to the public the public will access it indirectly that's our approach so we're working a lot more with the companies and the developers the quants the people who are actually designing the end solutions for the clients Pier 20 second response okay um well we have 20 seconds left actually so let me just like finish with one quick question how do you see rwa and defi uh working together and evolving over the the next 5 years I think that the um essentially what you're going to see what we saw in defi summer uh it was one of my friends once said to me what's the point in defi everyone is just selling three-legged donkeys and I said well like the most important thing about these markets is that they are incredibly efficient markets for three-legged donkeys as soon as you start getting real world Assets in as soon as you start getting these assets that actually matter to people you now have already got the infrastructure for creating incredibly efficient markets for that for those assets so I think the next 5 years of rwas isn't going to see huge innovation in the kind of infrastructure that's available it's just going to see massive amounts of capital coming in to use those efficient marketplaces so I am most excited by what's going to happen in terms of the capital type of assets that people can put Capital into in the next five years after yeah 100% I think it's um the coming together of these Solutions and the capital coming in to actually use the existing Solutions I don't yeah I don't think there's going to be a magical Innovation that's going to drive the uptake absolutely agree with that yeah I'm very positive about that if I can give my opinion uh I think within five years there's really going to be a convergence between what you guys are building uh especially you on the DJ space uh and what we are doing as as Banks uh the convergence where traditional uh assets aized and used as collateral for Lending especially in in in defi protocols uh is something that is going to happen I don't know if it's five or 10 years but it's going to happen and and it's going to be a massive change well I hope you all enjoyed the discussion thanks very much for staying at least and uh thank you thank you all right