What Are Investors Looking for in Web3? | European Blockchain Convention 9

[Music] 3 2 1 so let's have a seat so we're going to talk about what investors are looking for on web 3 and we have Kavita I think in a bit I'll let you all um shortly introduce yourself Del are fun right you came from the us yesterday yes very nice we have Alex from Angel block woohoo you came from Malta yesterday that was top secret but yes fantastic also short in in a bit and then Tim how do I pronounced is it deos x capital deos x capital yeah so he used to be Galaxy digital he used to and you came today from London very nice okay so again big Applause to our speakers woo and then just maybe 30 seconds 60 seconds each of you who are you what are you doing and then we're going to talk much more about the topic of today Kavita hey guys um I have uh I started Delta blockchain fund um it's a $125 million fund with 65 million approximately to preed and seed and the rest for follow on and growth uh I also teach at Stanford uh Beyond Bitcoin class uh and uh apart from that I think I've been in the space since 13 very excited and very lucky to be the first checks into really amazing companies building in blockchain like polygon openc super rare So Rare uh stock wear and bunch of them so excited to be here thank you Victoria thank you arita so a lot of rare and wear yes and they're still rare hey guys uh first of all thank you for coming out I'm barely hanging out on so I know some of you are probably dead as well but I really appreciate it uh my name is Alex I'm the founder of Angel block Angel block is a non-custodial fundraising protocol so it's the first time where we can actually conduct token based fundraises that are fully non-custodial uh investors have more of a say when it comes to development we want to make sure that startups are actually following through with their road map uh it allows for pretty cool checks and balances in the whole system but not here to show my background is predominantly centralized exchanges I'm an LP into funds uh and I do a lot of Angel Investing so I think it's going to be a fun talk since you guys bring more of the institutional side I'm a bit more active on the angel side so we'll see how that goes Tim good afternoon everyone um if you're struggling after one day I can't imagine what you're going to look like tomorrow morning it's not going to be pretty yeah I can tell you that I've got a 9:30 panel in the morning so if I'm out at midnight you tell me to go home yeah very important which I will roundly ignore um I uh so yeah as as Victoria said I used to run Europe Middle East and Africa for Galaxy uh but now we very exciting we about three weeks ago we launched DSX Capital we're a billion dollar fund we've got private Equity Venture Capital uh uh Venture building and uh and we allocate to funds as well so we're doing a lot in the space and there's a lot going on in the space so let's talk about it very nice thank thank you okay so my first first first first first question is because we all know we are in a bare market so our investors still looking into web 3 or is it now not so hot is it now ai so what's going on uh actually it's just very funny Tim and me were just talking about it uh Bitcoin prices just went up 10% and absolutely everybody's asking back what are the cool deals so no I think um the blockchain native funds have always been deploying like for us at Delta we have been deploying we are right now in the middle of two deals closing them legally we closed two deals last month but yes there was a huge narrative where suddenly everybody's like oh now we are also investing in AI even if they were the blockchain fund and then the AI um whole Spike didn't really become that much of a spike and people were like figuring it out uh but if you are here to build there are amazing amazing funds who are very blockchain native who really believe in the technology and who are absolutely deploying but with the right mind on their head instead of getting into the former of craziness as we saw in 21 I'm still wrapping my head around this because you know we we've been building through a bare market we've raised in a bare Market um I'm definitely still personally writing checks but you know they're smaller than both of you guys um it it's it's tough you know it's like we've actually had many conversations with various VCS we're getting ready for a series a probably q1 of next year and there is a lot of on the market right now there's a lot of like oh how are you guys integrating AI like we're we're we're not it's not part of our road map it's not part of our business model it's not something we want to do obviously there's a lot of crypto companies that are doing chat GPT rappers and suddenly you know you have a chat bot on a on a DEX or something else and you're AI powered if it works more power to you but there is interest um funding I I I think it wouldn't be really fair to say like no everything's you know peachy everything's gravy because funding has been pretty dry these past two years especially like we talked about this Cavita um on a call we talked about it I think a bit last night as well where it's if you look at total funding in crypto and you compare it to the last bare market so let's say 29 19 let's say that 2023 is this Cycle's 2019 kind of you had I think January in 2019 you had approximately like $500 million worth of deals made uh you had approximately like2 200 or $190 million doll in deals in August and this August I think the whole crypto Market did something around like 283 so if you look at it from a market cap perspective our market cap is at like a 45x to what it was in 2019 so funding is lagging behind uh you know hopefully price appreciation of Bitcoin is going to go up but there are some problems you know especially if we look at Celsius we look at Luna we look at uh FTX we had a great Exodus of talent that I I I know some of them personally after the FTX implosion because if you've been in this space long enough I think a lot of people are getting really tired dealing with the same BS year in year out um and I think some funds have reached the same conclusion I mean you know after FTX imploded didn't Paradigm just scrub everything from their website they're fully focused on AI you know if it works for them great but we do have to take into consideration that the tides are changing and it's very hard to say what the fundraising Market is going to look like next year like what's what are the narratives are going to emerge and and who are the kind of top players that are going to emerge because some people are just pivoting which is normal but it's something important to keep in mind so Tim before you go I just want to answer Alex quickly I think the Paradigm one Whatever happened they went public and said that was a mistake they're back and they are completely focused on blockchain uh they in fact didn't they decided against even expanding it to AI because they raised based on the idea of blockchain so I don't know what internally externally happened there but that's the narrative which was corrected publicly um at the same time the numbers which are talking about I think some of those numbers are referenced to the Galaxy VC uh investment report and we did a piece and decrypt about that uh where we said that what's also happening and I'm not saying that the there is not a major percentage difference between what's happening in 21 versus what's happening in 23 that's a standard across every technology in the bull and the Beer Market but also the numbers which has been reported are not absolutely correct because lot they not correct 100% correct with 5 or 10% difference there's a huge difference the reason for that is lot of our own portfolio companies who have raised $3 to5 million have not really gone out in the market have announced the fundraising it just didn't feel like the atmosphere for a lot of people to go and announce or to cover their whole race or doing the extension round announcement yes but unless it's 100% differential then there's still a pretty large discrepancy when you're looking at total market cap yeah but nobody's going to question about 21 to 23 right 2019 yeah so I guess the exam question is are investors still interested in web 3 let's go with what's web 3 anyway right let's start with that like I know there's some people who fervently disagree with that terminology I couldn't care less I just care about what's what I actually see as an investor like you call it what you like but like web 3 is pretty big category like whatever way you cut it right so I think it's a tough question to answer as a broad categorization second thing actually Kavita I think you're right right there's this we're in this incredibly reflexive Market you know this Co this to this term that was coined by Soros this reflexivity and it and I just think you have to see what happened this week is and it happened in January and it happened in April and it happened like inside on Monday is this sort of really dramatic sensitivity to the spot price of pretty much everything in our space and not even like when I say the spot price it's the spot price of Bitcoin like what a strange space that we've all ended up in where the entire barometer of Happiness how many more happy phone calls did you have on Monday than on Friday like the index was legitimately higher because everyone's got this energy level and so that reflexivity which is really a liquid markets reflexivity has crossed over into the investing into the less liquid investing space and so there is this sort of one week it's this and the next week it's that and as far as I'm concerned if people are flip-flopping that quickly and people do then they're not serious players you need to have a thesis you need to have a belief and the the belief has to be longterm in in the majorly transformative potential of web 3 and all the things that it represent presents blockchain digital Assets Now you put in Ai and all of the rest of it so metaverse Etc so I think are people still invested in interested in web 3 yeah I'm investing in it right now right like we everyone here is so the investors are but I think what's going to happen kavita's spot on is like we're on the we're on the brink of that suddenly becoming an amazing like oh we're all back in blockchain and web 3 again but the truth is anyone worth their salt was never out very nice thank you well I think I already told all of you I think it's fun if you don't agree so if you do agree it's fair but if you don't agree it's even more fun so uh thank you very much so there is still hope okay guys there is still hope okay let's continue a little bit with the with the I would say sad sad questions so we are again in a bare Market um so do you see this bare Market as different to previous ones I think this is where we disagree again right we disagree yeah we disagreed on most of the stuff but we still had great dinner together so um for me it is uh because for me I look at it as the third cycle of the Beer Market in my personal experience in 156 around 20145 for me that was the first beer market when suddenly everybody was saying Bitcoin is completely going to be illegal it came down to like literally like single digit dollars and like there was a lot of cruft around it then 16 with tokens Ico sales on ethereum everything got picked up and I 17 was great 18 mid was great and then 19 I would say was the first real technology beer cycle because instead of just prices of talking about e going to 76 bucks Bitcoin coming into three digits um I think what was interesting was 1718 we started investing into first time a lot of Technology based products not only layer ones but layer twos lot of exchanges lot of decentralized products at that point of time and we suddenly saw an exodus of talent going out of the industry saying this is just not going to survive and nothing is going to happen but this time the major difference which I see of course from the price perspective I say we are on a very decent reasonable uh low point which has been maintained fiercely by both e Bitcoin and lot of other factors but for me as a tech investor what's really fascinating is Builders continues to build I didn't see an exodus I didn't see that if I in invested in 100 projects in the bull cycle 90 of them have just disappeared barely 102 have disappeared and we still see so many experienced Builders from web to from different spaces people from cryptography double PhD still coming and building in the space for me that's the first experience of a tech bill cycle in crypto yeah those are very good points and I I agree with them sorry Victoria but but but I agree um but kind of the flip side of what Tim said which unfortunately I also agree with is um you know Tim mentioned that any investor worth their salt like doesn't matter bull bear you're you're allocating you're investing and I think one of the main differences that I'm seeing uh is we have this shiny thing called AI as an alternative now and but on the flip side it's if you're building in crypto you pivot to AI are you actually worth your salt as a builder right where is your conviction if you're so easy just because valuation because let's be frank AI valuations right now are like ludicrously high right those those rounds are as overcrowded as like Peak bull market crypto uh rounds were so you know we we have that we have that shiny coin that's kind of the the other side of the room that people are going to but that's totally different I personally feel like um this was a very very tough bare Market um I don't think like in 2018 2019 we never had those existential crises like is this ever coming back is is is you know is my favorite coin going to go up again um we had less of that we had less chop 2018 2019 just from a trading perspective it was very very choppy at times like and if you know again what Tim said price appreciation like there's no better way of maintaining positive sentiment than just price going up and if prices go up every everybody's happy in 2019 like we just even some of the Traders left like that that's how bad it was Traders left just because you know like they rather go back to options they rather go back to stocks because we had low volatility low uh trading volumes and it was just boring it was a very very boring market so a general theme of the of this bare Market has been a lot of underqualified people getting carried out on stretches because they had no idea what they were doing when it came to risk management that's just one example right like I challenge anyone to disagree I you know s bankman freed is a is the ultimate example um but it's like that's very idiosyn idiosyncratic to crypto and I think the thing is you got to take a big old step back if you look at the history of crypto every bare Market before it was was only idiosyncratic it was mainly not driven by external factors but actually the thing that made the the ill-advised young inexperienced people who blew up up three arrows Luna FTX and every other stupid story that came out last year that was just annoying for those people who actually spent a career building actual skills through real bare markets like 2008 and two 1999 2000 right like if how many people were alive then in this room you know like in this space it's there they just didn't have that but what happened was those people got caught out by macro factors that's really what happened right like what happened last year this wasn't a really and it it wasn't driven by a problem in crypto at the beginning it was driven by a problem in classic financial markets that tripped up all the idiots in crypto and so that that like that's this is a macro bare Market the the lack of the lack of investing that we're all referencing in the last two years is mirrored in traditional markets as well like nobody's like anyone Tred to raise money in the last year has had a real challenge no matter who you are no matter what sector you're in accepted if you're maybe you're in AI so is this a different bare Market in crypto yes it's totally different because it was it was driven by Massive macro factors and we're still being driven by Massive macro factors but the exciting thing about it being different is now we've gotten all those idiots out of the out of the game and you need that you need that shake out right that's that's a law of the Jungle Shake people out you get off you don't know how to play the game leaving people hopefully all of us in here do know how to play the game so that that that's the difference right we're going into I think a much more sophisticated institutional lead next leg and that's really exciting thank you okay good answers okay so my next question is about how you analyze projects and startups so what metrics do you look at I think I'm just going to give the comparison regarding the bull market and the Beer Market because I truly honestly feel that the metrics also changes when there is a lot of foro going on both for the VC and the founders and the other side so and also I feel like when I first started 17 to like officially institutionally invest in the space I came from years of investing at World Bank IFC Google xcos family office bringing the web to ideas of how to use the parameters of investing and I realized very early on they didn't work in web3 at that point of time like I couldn't come in and say give me a very clear product Market fit give me the revenue at that point and especially the tokens were so new e even company like till today polygon with respect to its subscription model or its payment system it's not profitable but at the same point from its token perspective it's sitting on a lot of treasury so there was a whole new Dynamics to it so at that point of time the metrics used to be is this going to really push a boundary in something when a decentralized world by the time we reached 2021 there has been a lot of product Market fit set up there has been also a new stream like defi within nft the da systems and everything so you're still going somewhere in the middle of it's a complete new idea it may find a product Market fit if it does find a product Market fit it's going to have a revenue or the incentivization model is strong enough that it never has to find a revenue stream and the incentivization itself will take away I think as we are moving with seeing some of the biggest blunders of the crypto economy till today uh as Alex mentioned whether it's FTX Luna and a lot of things most of the investors or most of the Season investors are back to asking the idea of product Market fit with Revenue even if the to tokens are associated with it because the pure incentivized model has not really worked for anything for a long term and beyond that uh Beyond just web3 Crypton native use case also Beyond but one most important thing which I'll just add in the end is something which I personally even myself have never asked is the transparency to the hold up of treasuries for all these Founders where are they managing treasuries are they using it to actually put in just into Define earn yields or they're using it for payrolls and have a dashboard associated with it with that I would just say we are maturing we are still not there yet there are lot of hard questions in a web 2 deal which we still don't ask in web 3 but we are getting better yeah metrics in this space are are kind of ironically they can be kind of tough and I definitely agree with Kavita that I personally look at different things in a bull cycle and and a bare Market um one of the things that comes to mind is you know some of your favorite projects have bought Twitter followers right so what is their Community it's not the 30,000 people on telegram that are spamming high so that's not a real User it's not the 120,000 uh followers that they have on on Twitter because those are all bought um so it really comes down to harder metrics that do show product Market fit in some way but those can be a bit iffy as well and if we look at something like arbitrum great L2 right no questions there absolutely um and they're you know more power to them they're smart for having done this but if you guys remember the arbitrum airdrop you had a sharp decrease in the usability of the network after the airdrop was actually claimed by users like it was like 70% drop yeah yeah yeah exactly thank you 78.2 so you know if you're investing at a stage when the airdrop is announced you kind of do need to take it with a pinch of salt like okay but you know you have people that are trying to sible this it's these are not real metrics um one of the larger uh personal checks that I wrote in this bare Market was for a defi protocol um it was more or less a year ago which is I know I know it's going to sound super djun but it's under collateralized lending which it's a space I'm excited about like I think it's the next natural step especially in crypto though but they launched their uh beta on chain on Avalanche having only gotten 300K from aval laabs which is super exciting if you can launch a beta with 300K a 300K Grant like I'm bullish on you um in January of this year when they launched they had a tvl so total value locked of 22 million so I know those Founders they're not putting up they don't have that kind of money they're not you know spoofing their own tvl which is really cool and it's a really cool uh sign in the depths of the bare Market that yes this probably will achieve product Market fit and it's looking good so it's it's really I think each startup you do need to do a a deep dive and kind of understand like who are the actual users because it's not telegram people it's not Twitter are are people actually putting money if it's a protocol are they putting money into this how many are they actually how many participants are there and it's going to be different because in a bull market like even some top tier VCS you're still fighting for allocation because Euphoria is high and you just you know next shiny coin not saying anyone here but you know those are the realities of it it just happens it's unfortunate but I think people just lose their brains a bit in a bull market even the most seasoned people yeah don't they just um so I've made a career out of trying to appear clever but I'm not actually that clever so I have to distill things into things I can remember and so here's my personal rubric of three things that I look at whenever I want to invest in something but it also is like a partnership or an acquisition or some like any kind of big commercial deal three things one people two commercial three structure so people if by the way it's gating if you don't get through the first one you don't go to the second one so the first one is people I'm extremely values driven Mutual empowerment professional ethical Integrity you know these things matter to me uh and so if I can't feel that I'm on the save wavelength of the people I'm going to invest in if I can't talk on a level about what we're trying to do if the deal atmospherics don't feel right there's no point talking about what they do and what the structure is going to be because it's just not going to work and and I think I'm one has to be recognized that I'm a particular kind of character and so I'm only going to appeal to a certain type of in of investe so that's the first thing if that works if we can have dinner if we can solve problems if we can think about the future in the same way we're good to go so that's the first one and by far the most important one I will not invest in something if I don't trust and feel the energy with the people and I don't think there's enough of that uh but if you know a great deal won't work if there are a bunch of just doesn't work for me or people who just aren't align with me not that that's you know goes two ways secondly that's simple that's everything mostly like a lot of what Kavita like all all the the really important stuff you just have to get right product Market fit is it well managed are they know how to run their finances do they have a clue about what it means to build a company and grow a company is the strategy right do I believe in the thesis that's the second bucket if you get past the first one that's where all the workers and then if you get to that point you're like I love these guys and I love what they're doing then you have to get the structure right and if the valuation is wrong then I'm walking away like I'm I'm not going to you know and so those three things have to happen in order for an investment to happen or a partnership to happen and I found that to be an extremely reliable barometer uh of when to go in and when to get out so that's my rubric if I can just jump in real quick because I feel like a lot of people are in this room will probably be you're either finishing raising or you might be raising soon is um what Tim mentioned it it it sparked something in me and and it kind of brings back the first things that we were talking about in this panel is you have a lot of because crypto is so liquid you have a lot of investors and I'm not talking VCS I'm talking even even angels who have forgotten their place and they call themselves investors where they are simply highly speculative Traders and there is a lot of them and and personally I do believe these are the prias of this space just because crypto is 247 crypto is super super liquid doesn't sleep on weekends you have people that will force early unlocks um they'll Force lower token prizes and those are usually people you should stay away from and especially in a bare Market when there is less funding and you are more inclined to take those BS deals and those are usually the kinds of deals that can sync your project before you even really launch or it's just going to make it a hell of a lot harder agreed okay so let's talk about the future let's talk about 2024 so if you have if you had to guess about the best sectors to get into to invest into or even maybe you're considering I don't know changing from one company to another company what are the hottest sectors we're going to see I know you don't know nobody knows what's going to happen in the future but please speculate please share your please give your financial advice to the audience oh yeah yeah it's not no no no nothing here is a financial advice nothing not at all a financial advice for all the SEC people sitting in the audience uh um with respect to technology sector I think the most non-sexy products at the beginnings becomes the sexiest product at the end so we continue to invest in lot of infra and when I say infra it's like the non-sexy plumbing part which I'm talking about uh we have been talking about web 3 and I know because of the liquidity and the financial aspect of this technology it has become so big but we still don't have a single straight data analytics layer we don't have Google equivalent you can't really search in a simple way uh all the companies which are there at which sector they are there all the data which is crossing between two chains so a lot of data settlement layers where our investment is going analytics security reporting observation tools also the double or the triple swapping without having a multiple gas fee or without having a multi multiple user interfaces associated with it um so companies like C swap which is associated with swapping across multiple chains without have with one press of a button or doing liquid staking or staking like companies like not stake which is here institutional taking taking it to the institutional people uh at the same time companies like airstock which are providing indexing much more like a Google Excel layer so a lot of for me the things which is really going to be the biggest unicorns out of the space uh are going to be those midlevel SAS products so you know we're probably going to be wrong on some of this stuff but usually looking into a bull market which it looks like it's around the corner hopefully fingers crossed uh there's always narratives that pop up that nobody expected so I think it's very important to keep an open mind and not just don't be too ride or die with your Investments that you've already made in the past you know year or two years three years um obviously it looks like l2s might be the l1s of last cycle just from a strictly speculative standpoint I'm not the biggest fan uh ZK zero knowledge anything that touches zero knowledge has my interest um I'm a very very big fan of Al of zero which actually has private smart contracts so a native private smart contracts natively on and L1 is something that I've honestly been waiting for for six seven years and it looks like it's finally arrived so very excited about that personally I I I think defi is is ready for some kind of resurgence I'm getting Decks that are calling themselves defi 3.0 and defi 4.0 I never know what happened with def 2.0 like we kind of had defi summer in uh 2020 and then we just kind of went to sleep on Defi and I kind of missed defi 2.

0 I don't know what it is if anybody here knows please let me know know I'm I'm really dying to know so I I I think this Resurgence of Def is something that I don't know if it's going to happen but personally from I think a more idealistic perspective is something that I would really really like to see so I'm I hope I'm right on that on that but I'm not I'm not sure yet D5 5.1 he heard it here first first web five let's just skip four um so actually rather annoyingly for Victoria I'm kind of going to rephrase what Kavita said cuz I actually unfortunately really agree like if you take what I was saying before about the the interesting part about this bare Market being we've carried out a lot of really terrible companies out of on a stretcher which you need leaving generally more healthy companies but you've also got this institutional thing and that that's the theme I'd like to end on you you know everyone's talking about the ETF in the US why it's not actually because every everybody thinks there's is going to be like that huge element of like Global capital in an ETF in a Bitcoin ETF no nobody's that crazy what it what it really is is about it's it's firing a gun on like right we're ready The Regulators are ready it's time to go to the next level of institutional adoption and the good news is and this goes back to a bit what we're were saying before the institutional adoption cycle has been continuing underneath all of this uh look at what what you don't need to look far to see a n announcement from a very big global company about their commitment to this space it's been constant slow but constant and I think what happens in this what's this reflexivity is not lost on the largest wealth managers in the world by the way they their clients are saying to them when this turns can you bring us into this space which is why black rock wants to put an ETF out because they want to be the place where that goes but this is where I'm interested in where it goes the The Logical next step is we get to see structural products tokenized we get to see all the tokenization people have been banging on about tokenization I've been banging on about tokenization for eight years and we still haven't tokenized like we really need to get to that next stage but this is the moment where we start to see that happening I think we've primed an awful lot of work so who would I like to invest in I like well we're we're invested in Galaxy saber Haven and Hilbert group in Sweden right for regulated crypto focused institutional players that tells you everything you need to know if you're building something that helps that institutional story picks and shovels data layers integration layers for institutional Finance defi 5.1 integration that's really exciting surround sound with surround sound and a subwoofer fantastic okay just like 20 second interview um this is I think quite difficult for all of us I mean doesn't matter if you are I don't know IND individual or company or I don't know part of a hedge fund I mean where do you get relevant I mean where do you find relevant resources for this space right everybody says Twitter um but there's also so much noise so so where do we get like valuable resources and information to continue digging deeper into the space these conferences hey yeah that's true a big Applause these conferences no I I think you know it's you mentioned Twitter and Twitter is a great space and I think the first five six years of being in this space is understanding who who who are the schillers who who's you know like if your favorite influencer is talking about some coin like oh might buy some here he already has bag he or she already has bag like it's it's it's Discerning signal from noise and unfortunately Twitter is this giant Cesspool that you know you do find some interesting stuff but it's it's very difficult like media is also difficult a lot of the stuff that we read is PR it's bought articles not everything but you know it's I think it's much harder to discern signal from noise in media than it is um on Twitter I but I just think it's it's it's an experienced thing um but going to these conferences actually meeting Builders meeting VCS you know don't don't just do deals online like talk to Cavita after this talk to Tim and and just like actually learn like what their values are and and meeting like everything is so online if you go to these meetups um if you go to you know the the the the eths of the world like eth Warsaw which is you know I'm I'm originally from Poland like that just popped up last year and also bare market and turn out one one of the best conferences I've been to apart from you know EC I I mean I mean that genuinely though I'm not just trying to shill here but it's it's I think it's still undervalued going out and meeting people and I know it's tiring I look like death probably right now but talking to hundreds of you right now is like that's where you find your next investment that's where you know what people are building and not just you know a branded Twitter post that's just me you I hope you have different opinions to make it interesting like Victoria wanted well I I remember when I got into this space the summer of 2015 and there was very there was much less available then than there is now and there was too much then there was too much information online I remember it's like right I need to about this blog I've decided this is the thing and I remember like I I I had to make a decision then and I've stuck by it since then and I think it's more true now than then because there's so much so much just impossible for anyone to absorb unless you have a whole team of people doing it for you which I don't it is the people like you have to you have to get to those groups of people who you can not just go and ask for their views but like you got to debate them like do we like these sorts of questions are valuable to to debate I do not want to be in a room where everybody agrees otherwise we're all going straight to abene if you know what that means like so I think people people people all day long I agree I think of course people but I feel like different type of information has different value so Twitter's of the world does give you a lot of gossips and does give you like what's happening where like an overview based on when you're sitting on a flight or you're sitting in an Uber but for me when it comes to to doing the deals like what sectors where the money is going that really lot of really good journalism has come out I think block coindesk Forbes Bloomberg crypto has been doing really good Deep dive uh places like defiant has been doing really good industry level reports to understand for me uh am what I'm thinking are other people also thinking the same not uh apart from that I think my day-to-day job is to meet lot of Founders lot of VCS but because I also teach at a university I also get to see from the academic perspective how the researchers the cryptographers thinking and that gives a lot of balance in planning 5 years 10 years ahead and at the end of the day yes conferences does give you um what you call it like lot of pleasant surprises and questions to take back home and then find it with your team amazing thank you so much Tim Alex Kavita absolutely amazing we could stay here the whole night thank you to the audience and let's continue with the next session big [Applause]