Bridging the Ethereum Multiverse with Hop Protocol

all right thanks a lot everyone for joining us uh at 10 p.m malaysian time and uh 6 a.m for our uh guest crist uh so yeah uh thanks for taking uh your time everyone uh this is our first meet up for 2022 we are exploring the ethereum multiverse with chris from hob protocol our sponsor is uh and a note from the sponsor if anyone in malaysia who's interested to join the blockchain space uh there is a local company it is looking to hire for a lot of different positions so feel free to reach out to the organizers afterwards and before we start with the full agenda with uh chris we will get as far to do some monthly round-up of news around ethereum and logics oh hello hello oh sorry can you hear me yeah all right um so hi guys uh thanks for coming for this for this meetup um so if you round up um on the global scene so consensus which is a very big company that has like a big footprint in the crypto space announced that they are launching consensus roll-ups and they are partnering with uh mastercard so um and i think it's interesting uh to see that they are also playing like a big part in onboarding enterprises and uh this rollout will be based on zk roll up or zero knowledge um so it will be uh quite interesting to see that they have chosen um the zk powerful roll up instead of optimistic roll up so yep there's a link here if you guys want to take a look at it and the next is so actually i just found out about this student account um so sap joins enterprise ethereum alliance these are sponsors and uh so this this community as you can see here is a member led industry organization whose objective is to drive the use of ethereum as an open standard to empower all enterprises so it's a very enterprise focused uh community and um for a company that as big as sap um i'm not sure what what department approved this sponsorship but i it is quite i'm sure uh it is quite like a big approval that is required for sap to sponsor anything related and i think this is um uh quite interesting um but this is my my first time hearing about this enterprise ethereum alliance here all right and and so next solution actually i would like to uh pass to harif so there's this new um article that comes out about alternative proposal for ethereum sharing design and maybe maybe you can share a bit about about this particular article uh yeah so uh not very technical myself but uh from what i can gather the uh the new proposal for sharding which is much further down the road from the merge and other things is kind of it helps roll ups integrate with the ethereum main chain better there are some drawbacks though where uh designing it this way means that uh the validators who are proposing blocks would have to have a lot more uh would require a lot more resources and bandwidth so it would be more centralized but if anyone who's followed the whole like uh uh ethereum roadmap and end game kind of stuff uh you'd have heard that with the whole mev that's happening and growing uh it's basically going to happen anyway where uh mining or validating blocks would be more centralized going forward so instead of trying to um fight or resist that you can design the sharding for the blockchain uh in a way that kind of just takes advantage of how it's done yep thank you harif um so next is so if there are any developers here or anyone curious to try out test net for ethereum post merch so the kitsugi testnet is live and i haven't tried myself but the goal is for developers and anyone interested to try out and to familiarize themselves with ethereum post merch they can do so with the link here and it's a test net and um and i think that's still on testing anything harry for for this particular one uh no i just said that uh you never know you might get an airdrop okay okay yeah and uh so some local news so uh last week uh there was a really big flood that hit um uh malaysia specifically our battalion italian area and and now uh the flight uh which i believe has found its way to uh so uh praise for for our friends there and one of the uh news during those times were a lot of nft communities uh kind of stood out together and and raised funds for these five victims and they raised around 80 000 malaysian ringgit which is around 20 000 us dollars and i'm pretty sure it's small uh it's hard for me to find the exact number uh but uh the community did a very good job in um tracking all of the expenses uh when it went off chain uh because everything uh can be seen uh two or tube to develop explorer and this is uh actually put the nfc community in malaysia in a good light and they've actually been covered by some of the local news outlets and also politicians and they raised this fund using tezos and also uh bnb and next is so volkswagen partners uh so this so this volkswagen malaysia i believe they partners with filament media group or the media collective here initiated to launch their own nfc collection um they haven't yet to launch um and yep so there are a lot of projects uh launching with nfts and and it's quite and i'm quite surprised to see a big restriction volkswagen malaysia would choose this uh puff as well and i'm not sure that this is local news or not um but samsung is adding energy support to smart tvs so if any of you have uh some smart tv and then maybe sometimes in the future or this year then you know then you might see like an application to explore and maybe to buy and even sell uh nfts in their own application so yep i think that's all i have uh back to you all right uh thanks as well oh and uh i think we forgot to put actually uh so for those of you who've uh followed like coin geckos uh guides they just released how to nfp and i think for those who joined their gecko con the other day you get a 50 discount um if anyone wants uh i can i can give my 50 percent discount uh to buy so yeah if an industry you know you can learn about nfts and at the same time support a local team so yeah thanks for that as far and i think we have chuck okay so just reconnected uh let me see if his audio works fine hey are you able to say yeah yeah i'm here can you guys hear me okay yes very clear actually oh great great okay um is it my turn yes it is i'm so sorry i just disconnected this before okay first of all so sorry guys but uh i'm actually uh in sabah right now and the receptions here not so good so i'm gonna leave my my audio off for now um so i'm here to tell you guys about um the my mp project um let me just share my screen and hope that works let's see okay here we go can you guys see that yes okay awesome i'm actually on run tab give me one second okay so essentially um first of all thanks to everyone for uh attending and also thanks to hari for inviting me to speak and huge apologies for not making it for the previous one where i actually was supposed to attend um so basically um my mp is um a project that i launched last year to monitor mps and um basically what we do we're trying to do is we're trying to gamify political observation so uh by gamifying it we hope to make it fun by making it fun we hope we get more people looking at politicians and by more people looking at politicians we hope that politicians will be a little bit more careful about what they say and do okay so um how does this work on the website basically uh as you can see we've rendered all 220 mps as a big character so let's just click on mocris here so um to make it easier for people to actually see how their mps are are working we actually have um stat bars so you have availability at the hubongan uh which shows you how contactable they are we have quesadilla which is loyalty how many parties they've changed how many constituencies they've changed uh how many alliances they've changed we have work ethic this is like how often they attend parliament how many questions they are so if you click on this you can actually see how what questions they ask when in parliaments okay um the thousand is transparency win rate is uh basically how often they win and by what margin they win so if you vote for someone hopefully you vote for someone who is has a chance of winning at the very least okay down here you see like badges and stuff like that so this is like sop before there's a link there as well so this is basically how the site works it's very transparent um all our changes are logged on the right as you can see here so this is all the changes that we've made to someone and usually they're attributed to either the admin or to a volunteer so all this information is keyed in by volunteers over the mco now you're probably asking why am i presenting in east kl's because you know ever since we launched it in august right everyone's been saying i want to buy this nft i want to buy this nft and we don't we didn't have any nft program at that point in time but since then we've actually signed uh to date uh seven mps to officially launch their their uh nfgs so we've got two up on the site already which which is an open c so you can see them here uh mariachi and uh are on coming up they're not for sale yet i'll explain a little bit about that later but why am i doing energies so essentially what we want to do is we actually want to raise funding uh to develop more gamification of politic political observation uh some of the plans we have uh the immediate one is fantasy parliament so if you guys ever play fantasy football before you know you assemble a team based on a budget this one you have a budget of votes you assemble some politicians and you hope that they perform well in real life we'll track them during parliamentary things we'll check when they break sops we'll track when they're under investigation and your team will go up and down in value accordingly okay so why do we want to do this because imagine like an mp does something wrong you go like i just want to allow zela and then you forget about it three days later but if that mp causes your team score to go down you're gonna be like you know it's gonna be a little more personal like the outrage so that is uh one of the plans we have we also have a rhythm game plan where they jump over obstacles if they're very transparent they can face two things very very early talks uh uh you know we haven't started developing any of these yet but what we're looking for is actually funding to develop this so that's why we're gonna launch a campaign as soon as we reach 10 mps which is called now everyone can buy an mp okay that's it's a bit controversial which is why we actually need permission from the mps uh to actually sell their nfcs first which we are trying very hard to actually get 10 maybe even 20 if we're lucky uh we're currently speaking to family fazil about getting more and ps in and he's he's actually very keen it's just that mp's are very very hard to lock down okay so that's basically the project um do you guys have any questions about this or comments um i think the teacher is asking how to buy how to buy okay when we launch it will be available on openc so uh we're because um we can't set a price for mps like you know you can't say mahate is more expensive than kyrie or whatever we're doing an english auction so basically we'll start with a floor price of uh i think it's point zero one or point one i can't i think it's point zero one uh is and then we'll see how high it goes after that and then we're also trying to work with the mps to see whether or not there be game uh they begin if it can reach one eighth they will do something like for instance you can throw a pie in on gaming space or something like that we're actually trying to talk to them to get those kind of permissions running was that your idea i believe it was haris or was it um somebody in the 8th group actually recommended this and i was like i i spoke to on camera about it he said yeah it sounds like fun so it might it might actually happen um alex asking is asking can one mp have many owners uh no so for the first batch okay so the long term plan for this is basically we launch a collection every time there's uh an election okay so uh ge 15 is coming about then we'll redraw all the avatars to match uh whoever wins in ge15 uh but for the first batch for your ge 14 which is the current batch that you're seeing uh there will only be one owner for every mp um actually yeah i want to ask you guys do would you do you think it's actually more appealing if there's one oh no if there's several owners what what do you guys think uh i think i think we can do a full uh uh as well one now yeah okay some people are saying one yeah need to summon the degens okay i'm seeing the chat now just just take note that maybe you know maybe some people that are replying you are the ones who have a bit more um eater so you know what they might represent we got something else here nice uh so the discord channel is uh just been set up it's pretty empty at the moment now uh we're going to reach 10 mps and then we're going to actually announce it on media and everything but if you guys want you can go in there and start having some fun we already set up some channels so feel free to go inside um yeah that's that's that's pretty much about it i i ask you guys for your support not necessarily monetarily but if you guys like want to help us develop this product uh even more uh we would love to hear what you guys think um just so you guys know my personal history um i'm not doing this to buy a ferrari okay uh all income will be transparently uh logged and it will uh lambo and no no no i don't have a previous borough so yeah um it's basically all going to development of my mb and also hiring because basically uh for the last one year we developed this entire project on a budget of about 46 000 ringgit that we got from a grant that includes all the uh the designs and everything so we actually when you guys buy these nfcs eventually um 10 will go back to the constituency of the mp another 10 will go to the artwork uh guy and the the guys who are helping us to develop our uh nfv project and the rest goes to development of my mp and it will all be documented okay uh right discord link's not working uh yeah so uh you might wanna you can you can i think you might have set the expiry or by default seven days so yeah oh the inviting okay okay sorry um i will send it in the east kl group once i get an updated uh link sorry about that sorry sorry uh yeah any other questions about this if not then i guess we can finish this yeah i think we'll just go uh one last question i think uh uh yeezy asked uh will the sales be used to donate to their political funding okay so essentially what we're doing with the mps is um they all have a constituency fund of some sort some of them are personal accounts but what we're going to do is be very transparent about it so it will be on the website whichever bank account that our money is going to but it will be ten percent yeah so if it goes to the personal account you will be able to see which mps are being donated to the personal account and you can hold them accountable uh for that ten percent yeah with the reason why we why why we gave them 10 percent is because we want to work with the mps not against them yeah all right yes thank you for sending openc link as well uh yeah thanks so much okay if you guys have any questions feel free to hit me on the etl uh uh telegram uh thanks for your time maharis no no worries thanks thanks chuck for uh darling from sabah and uh enjoy the islands i really don't stick around um all right all right thanks thanks a lot chuck and um thank you so much for waiting chris uh we know it's uh super early in your time um and uh yeah so i'll just welcome you up to uh give a sharing about hope protocol or i think i need to there we go hey guys um thanks for having me uh really really excited to be here um so my name's chris winfrey i'm one of the uh co-founders of hop protocol um before that i was doing some auditing um and building a contract-based account wallet called ethereum um and even before that i i started the ethereum meetup in boston so uh you know i now live in la and we don't really have like a local meetup going but you know it's great to see you guys are keeping that that local meetup spirit alive um through covet and everything um so i'm here today to talk about hop protocol um so i'll get into kind of how hot protocol works um and uh yeah how you can kind of send assets across different roll-ups on a theory um so you know with ethereum you know we've explored a lot of different scaling solutions so you know state channels were very popular plasma's very popular and we kind of settled on rollups as being the the the closest uh scaling solution to the base layer ethereum because they are fully evm compatible so we can deploy all the applications that we know and love on ethereum directly on to rollups and have a much cheaper environment to to execute our transactions and so yeah so ropes can be evm compatible uh and and basically a rollup is um a scaling solution that that uh embeds its state route into layer one ethereum so so you know it's it's a contract on ethereum the state route gets updated and there's multiple different kinds of of uh roll ups both zk roll-ups and optimistic roll-ups and the only difference between the two is basically how they they update that state route so with an optimistic roll-up it's going to go through um a kind of uh challenge game to to kind of set the new state route and with the zk roll up it's going to use some some cryptographic magic to just prove that you know the next state update is is the proper one um so uh first let's talk about how roll-ups uh interact with layer one so so you know what we want is not just like the scalable environment to interact with but we also want to move our layer one assets onto the roll-up uh and be able to use them there um and so the way this works is uh with what's called a cross-domain messenger and that this allows for um layer one contracts to talk to uh and send messages to layer two contracts and for but also for layer two contracts to send uh messages to layer one contracts so you can see here uh we have our sender contract on the bottom it sends a message to the messenger and then the messenger propagates it up to layer 2 and calls message on the recipient contract and so this happens pretty fast it happens in about the time it takes for layer one to reach finality so it's about five to ten minutes for your message to to go from layer one to layer two and then you can send a message from layer two to layer one so it's very similar you can see the message starts on layer two uh gets um goes through the messenger and then gets called on the recipient contract on uh layer one um and and the the caveat here is that uh layer two to layer one messaging for optimistic roles takes a full week so any information that's coming out of the optimistic rollup uh in order to verify it on layer one we can't do that for a full week until the the uh whole challenge game has played out um so this is a pretty slow process to send messages from layer two to layer one um and so the first application that these roll-ups kind of builds on on top of their cross domain messenger is is their native token bridge and so this is basically a contract where you deposit your layer one assets they get locked on layer one and then uh the roll-up will make you a representation of these assets on layer two so it's not actually the assets moving to layer two they're just minting these representations uh and this will kind of uh be important later when we get into the mechanics of pop so you can see here the uh user deposits die uh that triggers this mint um function that gets propagated up to layer two mint gets called on the layer two bridge and then this representation of dye gets distributed back to the user on layer two um and then same thing for for when you're exiting a roll-up uh you can see that the the representation of die gets burned on layer two that triggers this release message um but then this release message doesn't reach layer one for a full week so that's kind of why we have this this full week uh exit time for the dative uh roll-up bridge and so this kind of presents a big usability problem uh where you know users want their funds immediately but they have to wait full week to get them out of layer two and so that's where fast exit bridges come come in so hot protocol acts as a fast exit bridge but we also allow you to send assets directly from one roll up to the next roll up without even having to touch layer one and so at the core hop is a scalable messaging protocol um for scaling solutions so what does that mean um and so you know at the core we want to send a message from roll up a to roll a b and uh the way that hop does this is that we aggregate many messages you know you see so you can imagine the naive approach here is just to send a message um using the cross-domain messenger from layer from roll bay down to layer one uh and then once it reaches layer one uh then we propagate it up to roll it b what this does is it creates this big bottleneck um in layer one because each message is individually going through layer one uh and so to to alleviate that bottleneck with hop what we do is we aggregate all these messages on roll-up bay and then we move um we turn that into a merkle tree and and just take that merkle root and move that through layer one uh and that's just a single hash that represents you know thousands of messages and that kind of alleviates this layer one bottleneck so now we can kind of move messages um through layer one with you know but without creating a layer one bottleneck and then unpack this merkle tree at the destination and and relay all of our messages um so that's kind of how hop creates this the scalable roll to roll messaging layer um it is slow because you still have to wait for the exit time of the the origin roll-up uh but it's very scalable because we don't have to pay a layer one transaction fee for every single message going through the bridge that that layer one transaction fee can be aggregated over all of these messages um and so just like the roll-ups kind of build their uh native token bridge on top of their cross-domain messenger as kind of the first application the first thing that we built on top of this this um you know cross-scaling solution messaging layer is a cross-scaling solution token bridge um so this allows you to send tokens directly from one role to the next and so this kind of next layer we have our own representation of each layer one asset so you know just like we talked about with with the um with the native token bridge uh you know having um basically taking dye and locking it in layer one and then having a representation of dive being minted uh hot protocol also um you know when you deposit uh assets into the the layer one hot bridge contract we will make you a our own representation of that that asset so we call these representations uh h tokens so if you deposit it say if into the layer one hot bridge contract to the h um on layer two and then users don't really want um heat so we'll talk about how how we interact with what we call like the canonical uh assets you know that would be like actual each on the roll-up or actual usdc um but first let's put you know let's talk about how heath uh can be moved from one role to the next so um h uh can be you know burned on one roll up and then and then minted on on the next wall with this roll called uh the bonder that's basically this liquidity provider um so first uh the the bonder will uh make a deposit um at all the destinations that it wants to support and it kind of has this collateral ready to be used and so alice is a bridge user she um burns 4h and says that she wants it sent to roll up b and the bonder sees that alice has done this and will call the destination hop bridge contract and mint that h e for alice and take a small p so you can see that for each of each was burned and she received 3.99 um and so after the bonder uh does after the bonder does this uh many many times then um each of these heat this burned creates a message and we aggregate all of those messages and then uh propagate those through layer one uh using the messaging layer we just spoke about uh to the destination and now the the bonder can kind of prove that each a g that was burned at the the source um they're they're uh very sorry each engine that was minted at the destination had a corresponding burn at the source and now the the bonders collateral can be freed up because you can uh see that we haven't created new heath uh it's just been burned at the source and minted at the destination and it no longer needs to be collateralized um so that's how we we can transport hg directly from one role to the next in a fast and scalable way because the bonder could basically do this immediately um and then lastly we deploy amms uh and so this is how users get um into and out of uh the h tokens and so uh for for an end user what will actually happen under the hood is they will start with some asset you know say eath or usdc um they will swap that uh eath into h e uh heath gets burned at the source uh the bonder comes in mint h e at the destination which immediately gets swapped out back into e for the user and put in the user's wallet so that this all happens with just a single transaction from the user uh at the source and then the bonder will complete the transfer at the destination with another single transaction so sending from one role to the next it takes about um five to ten minutes and then we we kind of abs extract all this complexity uh under the hood uh into you know a uniswap like interface so the user can just kind of see if i want to send five usdc from optimism to xdi uh then i get this price and um can basically send it in a single transaction and they don't have to think about h usdc or you know how how kind of these underlying mechanics work at all and that's it you can try it out at hot dot exchange um you follow us on twitter uh join our discord and and yeah get involved in the community uh yeah any questions all right thanks thanks chris um so there are a couple questions already in the chat and if anyone wants to ask more you can feel free to put it in the chat or unmute yourself and ask verbally but as always before we get into those that meet of those questions i always like to start with asking our guest um uh chris in this case can you expand a little bit more about your personal story uh you mentioned you know you were running uh a meet up in boston beforehand but like kind of how you got your feet into the whole crazy ethereum webtree space um just so we get to know you a little bit better sure yeah so i i was was living in in michigan actually when i first learned about uh bitcoin and just ended up living with some people that were really passionate about it um and you know they got me interested and we started like looking at you know different things that we could build on bitcoin um like uh you know land registries and all these like non-money use cases uh and it was really hard to build on bitcoin and uh you know so so ethereum kind of came out and that was really exciting for for us because you know we could actually build applications with ethereum it you know it's completely programmable um and so that's kind of like how that was like my first introduction to to blockchain so i got got really excited about ethereum started kind of doing the tutorials online and um you know chatting it in the the solidity getter to kind of learn going the ropes when there wasn't much documentation um and at some point i moved out to boston and um was looking for cryptocurrency jobs but ended up uh kind of doing ios development um with some folks that that used to work at circle uh you know that ended up producing uh usdc um and so they they had kind of spun out and were doing their own uh you know ios stuff shop and i was working with them and but you know ethereum was was really exciting for me and i really wanted to to work you know doing ethereum stuff but there wasn't really any jobs in boston at the time uh so i uh you know quit the agency and and started the boston ethereum developer meetup um and then with a few friends we started uh you know an ethereum dev shop where we would build smart contracts for for different uh people and and uh and ended up working with some some great companies um then we started auditing as well so so we we uh did a few audits for for some people that asked us uh we were very like hesitant you know that we were like hey we're not we're not really auditors like we don't uh do this and they said you know it's fine like you guys will do fine and they ended up really liking the work um and so we went on to audit the opens up and framework and then work with projects like auger and dydx and decentraland uh trust token uh and a handful of others and it got to know that the code base really well found issues and and um yeah and so at some point i moved out to los angeles and you know was working with uh the auditing team out here um and but we we really wanted to build product uh you know auditing is is uh it's it's a good business but it's not very scalable um and and so we kind of spun the auditing business out and and started level k or sorry started at ethereum which is this kind of contract based account that made it easy to onboard uh to ethereum so you could just sign up with the username and password uh you could you know pay your transaction fees in a token uh we had batch transactions so you didn't have to do an approval for every transaction but then the gas market got really expensive and we were deploying this contract base account for users it cost about 13 cents when we started gas market got crazy expensive through d5 summer and and uh you know we we had to push this cost over to users and at kind of the height of the gas market it cost you know over 250 just to sign up for off the area and you know we wanted to target new users and it was just way too expensive for the users we were targeting and that's kind of where hop came from is we're looking for uh how to get our users onto layer two and allow them to stay on layer two and just be these layer two native citizens um and so we we were looking for solutions to kind of uh move assets from one layer two to the next then we put out hop as kind of an independent um project just to see if it would get traction um and then you know the the response was overwhelming we ended up uh pivoting our entire focus on hop and kind of sunsetted ethereum and uh that that's you know uh kind of how we got to where we are today yeah it's um uh it's i mean i i can see the relation but it's almost like completely different businesses right um from going from from wallet to a bridge it definitely is yeah so is it the uh the exact same team or did you guys kind of like go to your different ways yeah yeah i know it's the exact same same team um behind authority okay um it's very interesting i think uh origin is another wallet and they've moved completely to uh i think uh software layer two um so it does make sense uh and a lot of users i'm sure even people here uh have reduced their transactions on ethereum and and done a lot more on other chains probably yeah all with the same rationale arjun um so argent was was a big competitor when we were uh working on ethereum but i actually love argent um you know they were tough competition at the time um but uh yeah they were uh kind of facing a lot of the same problems and they were covering the cost of this this account deployment and just like that you know they were much better funded than us and and just but the amount of money that they were paying just to deploy users accounts as as they were signing up was was it was like mind-bending it you know i think at one point it was like half a million or more uh every month uh that they were paying just to for gas fees for users signing up uh just deploy deploy the contract account wow okay i didn't know that um okay then uh moving on to some questions uh from the chat uh atmos asked um earlier uh which layer two has gotten the most usage via hog protocol so far and i guess it's also uh the not exactly layered two chains as well yeah um our arbitrary is probably the top um polygon uh is likely a close uh close second um but yeah the optimistic bullets are still very new i think um you know optimism's taking you know a little bit of a more incremental approach than than armatron but um you know we we expect usage to pick up there uh but you know all three of those networks get get decent usage arbitrage is definitely the biggest though okay and um i kind of related so i'll ask it now uh and feel free to you know not answer if you choose not to uh erwin uh what's your personal layer 2 favorite right now and why um that's a good question um i really like the user experience of both optimism and arbitrage you know like going from layer one where you kind of have this uncertainty when you like send a transaction like is it gonna be mined uh did i set my gas price too high or too low um it's really nice to just be able to transact and your your uh transactions are confirmed instantly uh and so like i think that's a really underrated user experience um for both of the optimistic roll-ups um polygon is really nice too because it's just super cheap uh but you know like you know especially yesterday i don't know if you guys tried to use polygon yesterday but uh gas prices were you know over a thousand way it's pretty uh pretty crazy and yeah just that uncertainty that comes from dealing with gas markets uh you know not having to do that on on optimus scroll-ups is really nice okay and um i was asked again another i think related question is uh like for your team uh how would you approach uh expanding uh to uh more than five tokens like um you have to take usdc usdt ethmatic and maybe one more uh but how do you kind of think about what tokens uh to add and how much work i guess does it take to add one new token uh yeah it's a really good question so um for each new token that we add right now we we deploy um a new bridge contract on on every uh chain and then we kind of link them all up uh with these uh messengers so so it is a pretty involved effort right like right now it takes our team uh you know probably half a day to deploy a new asset uh and then it you know it costs you know a few thousand dollars with the layer one uh gas fees and you know so so in terms of like assets we support we we we see like volume as our our key metric you know so so we want to drive as much volume through hop uh as we possibly can and so we we look at um kind of the top assets in terms of tdl for each of the rollups and so right now that's that's eth um the three stables uh usdc usdt and dye um wbtc is is up there uh and we should be adding wbc wbtc very soon um and then matic is an important one because that's what you need to pay for the gas fees on polygon uh so so uh that you know that that was like a very early asset that we supported as well um and then in terms of you know expanding that set so so we do want to kind of like keep going down the line to longer tail assets um link is definitely a big one uh because uh the you know the oracles on um on each of the roll-ups they need link to to do their job and and so there they actually uh have a big use case to send link across these different scaling solutions um so that will probably be one that comes in the near term and then in terms of like supporting the really long tail that this is definitely an open question for us um in a future version of hop we'd like to make it easier to spin up new tokens permissionlessly uh and so we don't want to really be the gatekeepers for like which tokens are added or not added um and then uh but there are some like capital requirements you know so so the amends need to be funded so so that it needs to be a fairly liquid token for to make sense for someone to deploy a bridge set for them and so what what we think for the even longer tail assets is that we can add uh swaps in the source in the destination so we're already swapping from the canonical token to the h token and we could add another step where they could swap from some long tail asset um say uh should uh so they swap ship to uh you know eath and then to achieve beckett's fridge and then they can swap out at the destination and uh yeah at the destination um so yeah that's kind of how we see uh longer tail assets being bridged so so to be clear are you like integrating with the smart contracts of the amms on each chain like uni swap and [Music] quick swap and so on like is that how it works yeah so so for the um for our ams the canonical asset to the h asset we we deploy our own amn and and so this is a stable swap bam it's it's very similar to curves contracts it saddles contracts and they basically re-implemented curve in solidity um and so we we use those but for the these kind of like additional swaps we can hook into any of the native uh dexes to to tap into their liquidity okay and um so before you deploy any new token then do you kind of like engage with any let's say market makers or liquidity providers on on like which tokens that they would be willing to provide liquidity for um sometimes uh depends depends on the asset um but for the most part we've just kind of deployed uh the assets and and people have filled up the amms um we need we do need to kind of like recruit uh a bonder uh to to provide that liquidity and so uh right now all the bonders are kind of close partners of us um that we've uh engaged with but but we're working on um kind of decentralizing this role more and opening it up to some more parties okay i guess that that links uh nicely with alex's question on uh just wondering how many bonders there will be uh maybe you can also expand like at different stages how you approach uh answering that question yeah so right now we just have a single bonder uh per an asset and so this was kind of this constraint that was uh unsolved until like maybe a month or two ago uh maybe a month ago so we we figured out how to uh support multiple bonders for a single asset in the near term and and so uh you know this will kind of allow um you know up to uh 20 different bonders per an asset uh so so we we should be able to scale up um the bond or liquidity a lot uh in scale up the number of bonders that we have a lot um but yeah right now we just have five bonders one for for each of the assets okay um and i think going back to uh expanding uh hot protocol sort of services um other than tokens uh how do you uh think about or how do you approach uh expanding to other chains whether that be uh zk roll ups uh or um side chains uh like uh lay ones or even they are i think uh the other day in the group there's uh some quite a lot of interest in uh mathis which is a uh another new optimistic roll up so like how do you approach which uh change you want to create bridges for yeah so so you know hop is great for supporting um you know ethereum layer twos and and then like side chains that that have the same kind of infrastructure that layer twos have so so like polygon and x died they both have these these messaging bridges they they both um primarily use assets from ethereum and and so basically hop relies on these message bridges um to support like a given layer too or or sidechain um so you know if they do have a message bridge and they're evm compatible it's pretty easy to deploy hop um we've been keeping a close eye on on metas uh you know we will likely support it at some point um but uh just kind of looking and and watching to see if it gains more traction uh but yeah would be we would love to hear you guys take on on that is too but um yeah and then in terms of like other layer ones this is a a kind of different problem set than what hops built for right now so uh we we do want to kind of expand to these uh bridging you know disjointed layer ones um and allowing um you know ethereum to you know ethereum assets to be used on on things like solana and uh avalanche and and you know buying a smart chain and all these uh chains where you know transactions are much cheaper um but we we need to introduce some new technology to do this so uh something we're definitely thinking about and we'll do in the future but that's probably um farther downpouring um so uh i understand solana because it's not evm but for example like the avalanche and psc chains since they are evm uh is there something else that's that you need to uh to have before you can integrate yeah for those we we need just the message bridge between um yeah between ethereum and avalanche and uh binary smart chain so right now there's not a way for the smart contracts to interact with each other okay and that's uh something that you build yourselves or you you need another member of that ecosystem to build and you can leverage yeah typically it's built by uh whatever you know layer one or or yeah whatever the side chain or or um the roll-ups uh you know with the roll-ups the message bridge is just built right into the roll and then the side chains like polygon and xdi have kind of deployed their own uh message bridge that they use ah okay okay um let's see uh julie uh asks could you explain further about challenging transactions transactions uh what sort of situation would call for a challenge on a transaction and why have this feature yeah so this gets a little uh deeper than we went today but uh you know so not only is this liquidity provider the bonder uh bonding individual transfers but they also will bond um the uh entire what we call the transfer group which is this like bundle of transfers uh that that um gets passed through layer one and and is involved in the settlement process and so when a transfer route is coming out of um an optimistic roll-up uh you know that message will take um seven days to reach layer one and for you know this makes sense for roll-ups because they're securing a ton of money uh they don't necessarily need this fast you know super fast exits if there are fast exit bridges like hop um but for a bridge liquidity provider having a shorter challenge period is really important because by just having a day-long challenge period instead of seven days um they're they're now you know seven times more capital efficient um you know they can use that that collateral seven times uh more than if it took the full seven day uh exit time and so what we do is is we uh shrink this challenge window from seven days to one day using our own challenge mechanism and this challenge mechanism super simple basically just piggybacks on the optimistic roll-ups challenge mechanism uh so the bonder will come in bond the transfer route put up collateral and then uh that starts the 24-hour period and then if if uh the 24-hour uh if a challenge happens within that 24-hour period then we just wait for the actual message to reach layer one um in seven days and then that will uh resolve the challenge either uh successfully or unsuccessfully successfully so that's how the challenge mechanism and hop works right um i think going off of that as well like this is just one element for one type of roll up which is optimistic to go up and then for example zk rollout is making leaps and bounds how much do you have to do to keep up with these advancements in ck roll-ups optimistic roll-ups or even just like let's say other things like this modular blockchain um stuff and data availability like how much of that do you need to keep up uh with uh to make sure that a whole protocol can still you know provide its services yeah that's another good question so um supporting you know the evm compatible layer twos is really easy um we basically the only work is to kind of uh connect up to the cross-domain messengers and then for non-evm roll-ups it is definitely uh something that that is more work to keep up with so um for if if we support starkware uh we'll have to re-implement the layer 2 contracts in cairo you know their proprietary language um i know zk sync though is going to launch uh you know fully evm compatible uh zk roll up so so that you know that will be really easy um for us to support um but even even with it being you know fully evm compatible there's still like certain op codes and stuff that um you know are more expensive or uh you know aren't implemented yet so we do have to kind of like keep an eye on on that stuff um so yeah if it's evm compatible it's super straightforward and then if it's not um there is definitely is some like work to rework the smart contracts and get things re-audited and then deploy on those chains right and for now at least as far as i understand both optimism and arbitrarium they're not necessarily decentralized yet there's still a centralized sequencer that that's sort of doing the that job um so does that change how hot protocol works when they eventually decentralize sequencing such as like would you run your own sequencer or would it not matter if you do so we we won't run our own sequencer but we will run um like our own like full verifier note uh and so um you know basically you know the the bonder is kind of this off chain process and and so that's the one that's like listening for events and then acting on those events and so the bonder needs to wait for um finality of the source chain and so right now we just kind of trust the sequence or or i should say the bonder trusts the sequencer the users don't um it's still completely trustless uh and it's you know the reason it trusts the sequencer is because these optimistic roll-ups are still pretty centralized you know they're they're uh fraud proofs aren't implemented yet um and so once the sequencer kind of says this is the next transaction you know we we just trust it uh and then you know when we move to like a multi-sequencer world uh then what what we'll do is you know we need to wait for finality on the wall and and so what finality on the roll-up looks like is the sequencer um will submit this uh transaction data onto layer one uh as as it is being sequenced and so the bonder will actually wait for the layer one transaction to be mined and then breach a certain number of confirmations to know that it can't be reworked out and then we can say okay now this this layer two transactions final uh and then the full verifier node can can kind of like run the um the sequence transactions to to verify that the state is the state that we expect um and then that way it it can uh then complete the bridge transaction at the destination uh knowing that that uh with complete certainty that that uh the optimistic roll-up state is what the sequencer says it is okay okay um going to another direction um so for for for the users who might not be familiar uh including myself like how uh how would revenue work for a bridging protocol or how would you make sure you sustain uh yourselves um that would it be just charging uh fees on top of the uh liquidity or are there other novel ways uh for for making money yeah that's a good question um it's definitely still an open question for us uh you know right now there is no no fee involved with hot um in the future that there definitely could be uh you know some portion of the bonder fee um that goes uh towards protocol development um or uh you know a fees could also be captured through the amms okay okay um and then i'm sure you must have uh like be very familiar with uh some of these sort of privacy uh networks uh there's something aztec protocol um so what does hob have some sort of position on supporting uh maybe privacy cheats or even somehow adding some kind of privacy or mixing element to the bridge yeah that's another good question um we spoke with the aztec team we would love to support these solutions at some point um right now the functionality on them is pretty limited to just kind of transfers maybe swaps and this makes it difficult for us to kind of uh deploy our layer two functionality and support those chains um and then you know actually it's a common question for us is is like uh you know could you do like private bridging um or like kind of tornado cash mixed with the bridge and so and and so it seems like it would make sense but you know privacy ends up getting pretty complicated and so um in order to have true privacy you basically have to build up what's known as like an anonymity set and so this is like a bunch of uh other addresses that that um look like your address with a given uh interaction so the way uh tornado cache does this is uh they have you kind of deposit and you deposit a very uh specific amount like point one e one e uh ten e underneath uh and then that way uh and then you wait for some time uh and so the what the reason you wait for this time is to so that other people are depositing and adding to you know the anonymity set um that so that you you can be uh more anonymous when you withdraw uh and so so for a bridge to also have privacy it would have to kind of have similar mechanics where you know uh the time period between when you when you enter the bridge and exit the bridge is some long period uh and then the amounts that you're sending are very specific amounts and and so what it ends up boiling down to is it would be better just to uh you know bridge uh without the anonymity built in but then automatically deposit into or you know maybe not automatically but just have the user deposit into um the the mixer at the the destination um and then that way they can you know then wait for the uh you know anonymity set to build up in kind of like a less uh fraction fractionalized way that a bridge would do yeah i think that makes sense too and because it kind of is a different target audience as well like people who want to use fast bridges they want to get um fast transactions but as you say like if you want privacy you kind of naturally have to wait uh for that mixing to to happen yeah uh okay uh ujuji asks um what separates hop uh with uh synapse synapse i never remember how to pronounce the name and maybe more generally also just with other bridge protocols out there yeah so that's another good question so um there's a few different kinds of uh bridges um hop is actually pretty unique we're we're the only bridge that uses this um this kind of like tech that we came up with to uh you know like bundle these messages and then pass the bundle through layer one um but but this tech uh allows hop to be uh completely trustless for uh layer two uh to layer two bridging and so the synapse um you know it ends up looking similarly to hop and and you know the big difference is that instead of actually passing uh these messages through layer one and and then like relying on the security of ethereum what they do is they introduce a new validator set so they they basically have a few addresses that that um are able to uh you know propagate the messages directly from one solution to the next uh but what happens is that the trust model devolves uh down to you know trusting this new validator set rather than having the security of the theory of itself um and so that that's the main difference between us and synapse uh and also chains or you know other bridges like 4chain um or anything else that yeah you know actually now seller uh also uh operates using kind of its own validator set with the seller 2.0 contracts um and then there's this other type of bridge uh that uses uh hash time locks and and so hash time locks uh is this game where you kind of like have this like uh four-step process where you kind of deposit on one side and then you lock up tokens on the other side and then the one user withdraws and reveals a secret and and then that uh the other user can use that secret to withdraw um at the destination and this gets complicated like it works well when in kind of the happy path but uh in kind of the non-happy path there's like all kinds of briefing vectors that you could do um that it requires two transactions from the user or at least you know a transaction and a signature um and so you know we've looked at this uh construction early on when we were kind of attacking this problem with ethereum but uh ultimately decided to to not go with the hashtag luck approach okay and um with all these bridges uh coming up and and being around uh you have all kinds of uh uh this sort of synthetic uh tokens if i can call them that like you know there's the h e there's um c e there's uh all these other types of of tokens out there um i think for example any swap has a bunch of different tokens across each chain like have you guys had any kind of conversations with amongst yourselves or with that projects on like the kind of convoluted world you'd have where there's like all kinds of different tokens out there and for the end user they might not know which is the more native which is the native one and which is um which of these tokens have the different trust assumptions yeah so that that's a big reason why we kind of uh had these amms to swap in and out of you know the age tokens um and so we we really don't want the or you know we don't see the age tokens being the ones that are kind of adopted as as like you know the true eve or the true uscc uh and so like you know users won't you know use h tokens uh in things like ave or you know or or just like hold it on you know as a balance um so so that kind of like isolates it and uh you know and then we abstract it away from the user so they don't really need to think about it so they can just think about the canonical assets um and so this works well but uh for ethereum layer twos but when you kind of get to layer one to layer one uh yeah layer one to layer one bridging that's when you kind of get this problem where it's like okay you have acids from this chain acids from this chain uh and and you like bridging them to another chain and so now you and so like you kind of have this like trail of uh bridged acids um i i know seller is working on a standard to kind of uh allow multiple bridges to share a single token we haven't looked too deeply in that because we don't actually deal with the canonical assets with hop right now um but it does seem like a possible solution to uh yeah reigning in the the like you know tons of different representations of the same token yeah i i i honestly one of the sort of uh things i'm concerned about coming into 2022 is this uh explosion of different tokens all over the place and it gets impossible to track um you know which bridge token is is which point yeah um although one of the definite benefits of having more chains and more l2 chains is um you know actually getting cheap transactions possible again um so with that in mind and you know you you mentioned you were working on or you had a lot of ideas on building like all kinds of uh applications uh on ethereum uh before this do you just as a kind of personal um view do you see any kind of um applications you think will will come up a lot in 2022 especially on layer 2s where things will be relatively cheaper um that's a good question i you know i i think we'll see like if i continue to develop and you know we're seeing kind of like more and more uh niche uh d5 projects um like like i feel like 20 20 and 20 to 21 was was kind of like the base layer of like exchanges and lending and stuff and now we're seeing like uh volatility indexes and options and uh option strategies and stuff like that so uh yeah and there's a lot of use cases where you need cheap transactions uh for it to make sense like perpetual uh swap exchanges and stuff like that so i think you know layer two will definitely open up um these these kind of use cases that need cheaper environments um and then yeah you know uh we'll see like kind of like cross-chain applications which should be interesting uh but yeah yeah i'm excited to see what comes out in 2022 should be a good year um i think that's a good um kind of next question to be asked by aspar uh where do you go or who do you follow to keep track of all these different lay 2 developments that are happening oh that's a good question as well um mostly twitter and discord um so like and you know in if there's a new layer too it'll jump in the discord um you know you guys can also jump in our discord uh we talk about a lot of the different layer twos a lot and then on twitter just following the different projects following a lot of ethereum people and different crypto people um yeah it's a lot to keep up with though yeah i mean that's just layer 2 right there's a lot of other stuff happening all over the place as well yeah um so yeah just because as far as that last question i do remember as well you asked a question very early on um so for chris uh what's your thought on protocols that are specialized for cross-chain transfers such as nxtb yeah so so actually that that ties into the um like different bridge question and so nxtp is a hashtime lock-based uh protocol um and so yeah it uh you know it's good for kind of bridging later ones to layer ones uh be easy to do it in a trustless way um but i think for layered two delayed too uh the you know the solution that we have it allows it to be completely trustless without having the complexity of of the multi-step process okay and um i think uh we're gonna be ending soon so maybe just uh uh one or two more uh questions um i think the some members of the community are not gonna be happy with me if i don't ask the wind token question but but uh uh caleb who's not here today but uh he crafted a very nice one so you know we can ask it in a more uh in a better way so the question is um is you're possibly much more aware than all of us here liquidity in this space is often fragmented and the lack of concentrated liquidity results in worse rates for users so would hop protocol be releasing any incentive mechanism to align this yeah so so right now uh you know we partner with a few of um the layer two so so like matic uh automatic we we have matic rewards for liquidity there um and then on xdi that they're gonna provide um some gno to incentivize uh liquidity there um it's definitely top of mind for us uh you know we've also been talking to teams like like maker and you know for dye and you know some of the other um stable coins about providing liquidity so um yeah so it definitely is a tough problem um to attract liquidity and and something that that's uh top of mind for us and um i guess related to that would be uh i i don't think hop is a dow all right uh it's not are there any plans to make it more of a doubt um it's possible um you know it's you know i think it's something that every project is is considering uh right now but um yeah like right now we're still very very early very young uh and you know the protocol is moving and changing pretty fast so uh it's something that's in the back of our minds but yeah we'll we'll see what direction we end up going okay so um where do you think uh hop will be in this time in 2023 or what do you wish uh to see uh where do you wish to see will be uh and layered twos in general yeah so i i hope to see that we see like more usage uh like actual users on uh layer two than we do on later one um i i hope we see exchanges allow for deposits and withdrawals directly to layer two so that that we basically see users that never have to touch layer one at all and and never do touch layer one um and so like i hope we get that there this year i think that would be um kind of a nice nice future and for hot i hope that we kind of have our next version out and so this uh version will allow for um not just asset transfers but also for um like messages to go directly from one uh roll up to the next uh in a scalable way and then uh and then yeah i hope we have a pretty clear path to kind of supporting uh disjointed layer ones as well so we can um kind of you know expand our reach uh beyond you know just the ethereum layer 2 ecosystem that we're focused on right now okay and i guess before we end any final words for any community members here on what we can do to help support your project yeah um you know definitely uh just like community support is really important to us so so uh you know participating on twitter and then and then jumping in the discord uh we're always you know there's always people like asking questions and looking for help and stuff so uh the community is is invaluable because they they are always kind of jumping in and helping people and making memes and uh just like chatting and stuff so uh if you guys join the discord um you know start start uh talking and yeah that would be a huge help all right thanks uh thanks a lot chris i think we'll get the twitter and discord links for hop and share it in the uh in the groups uh later um but yeah otherwise uh thanks a lot for uh spending your time with us i can see the background has changed from pitch black to a little bit more color yeah and yeah so uh have a have a good day and for everyone else here i'll have a good night thanks for having me