🎤 The State of Grants in Web3

foreign [Music] [Applause] [Music] style Ken from notably the union Swap Grants program not Dao and then also we have Carl coming from dydx Grants and also from reverie which is an awesome company in this space so uh I am Jacob I'm on the global team um and yeah excited to have you all here um so yeah I thought maybe we start with intros maybe we'll just do right to left or my right to left so I'm going to trace if you want to get started here hey everyone I'm shreyas I'm the co-founder of llama which is building economic infrastructure for Dallas and does a bunch of Dao Treasury and governance work I'm also the program lead for Avi Grant and have been doing that for the last year and a half everybody my name is Ken uh I do Grant stuff across ethereum and uniswap I help with the ecosystem Support Program which is the EF grants program and I helped run the Unison grants program hey guys uh Carl I do governance stuff at reverie we are a small startup that just launched last year we basically helped dial scale and work with lots of different projects on governance stuff and um part of that is helping uidx with their grants program which we lead awesome do we also want to chat a little bit about the exact grants program and maybe sort of a little bit intro to how you're thinking about grants kind of the underlying as kind of ideas behind the program and and that kind of thing too so maybe we'll start with the Ave program and go from there yeah so um Avi started uh launched its grants program in May 2021 so prior to that Avi was giving out grants from Ave company and this is the first major um uh spending from the Dow itself and so it was a significant moment I think the first D5 protocol to do is was uh uniswap and we followed soon after um we started off with a one million dollar aquatic grants budget and now it's about three million dollars a quarter um we started off just focusing on developer grants and specifically on projects that benefit the RV ecosystem um and so one difference say between RV and said you know brother ethereum Foundation Grant grants are that you know we do have a requirement that it it is helpful to RV and beneficial Ravi and obvious not just um a tangential part of the project um and uh and yeah we kind of generally require that the projects are are open source and can be maintained and built on going forward um we put down sort of a list of um rfps and and things that we thought would be interesting for uh people to to build on Ave uh but some of the most interesting projects were ones that you know just use people's creativity um one thing that's changed I'd say over the last year is we're funding much many more events in in community based projects um initially we pretty much focused on developer projects but now we have taken on much more if if the sponsorship of hackathons and events as well as other media sponsorships like bankless um so I I'm here with the uniswap grants program uh that like Ave started out of unisoft governance unit swap itself started from ethereum Foundation Grant um and I was you know I helped I guess I was part of the team that uh made sure that Hayden got this grant to start uh uniswap um but it's been it's been really cool to kind of switch gears and think about you know how do we think through grants when it's not just uh ethereum right it's not just the The Meta goals of uh protocol or the ethereum based layer of protocol right we're thinking about from adapt specific perspective how do you grow um D5 protocol how do you think through you know not just as stress was saying not just the developers developer tooling developer experience but also thinking about the community what is the community and also kind of when you think about uniswap you know there's still the idea that you know the protocol and the Unison Labs the company are the same but they're really not you know you know when we're thinking about integrating with uniswap it is a very very different perspective of how do we actually use the tools that are all open source how do we actually have ownership of the universal protocol so that's been a lot of fun to kind of think through uh yeah so dydx grants launched uh earlier this year in January after a community votes to allocate roughly 6 million of dydx funding to the grants program we launched with a pretty General mission of just growing the dydx protocol and sourcing talented contributors that could become kind of long-term members of the dydx community an important note is just kind of uidx the product right is is kind of closed in its development and so the grants program has been working more externally and figuring out ways that we can grow the protocol from an external tooling standpoint and so um yeah it's it's kind of differs a little bit in that sense I think from from the ones that you guys are doing but we were still able to kind of accomplish a lot of awesome tools and find really really great contributors to build and kind of become full members of the community awesome um and yeah while this panel is sort of self-serving for me it's also kind of the perfect panel to have at a hackathon because you're going to be building all these awesome projects over the weekend and it's very likely that whenever whatever you build there's likely a grant that is out there that can help you continue building it after this weekend so I want to also kind of put the questions for this panel around also thinking about how you as attendees or people building for the first time a new project can kind of have the best shot at building a great grand proposal helping measure that proposal and just give you a different tool set to kind of think about how to work with these all these Grant programs that are out here notably these three but then also all the the existing kind of very wide tapestry of grad programs out there um so so maybe for just to start on a quick question um or actually it's probably going to be a long question um just measuring success in Grants obviously it's it's one thing to kind of give out the money it's another thing to make sure that the funding went to the right place and that the right outcomes were met um so I don't know we would maybe start with Trace again like how do you think about kind of measuring the success of the grants that you're offering and do you have any kind of mechanisms that you built or best practices you've developed and maybe we can just go down the line kind of thinking about uh how to basically structure Roi with with Grant giving yeah it's a good question um I'd say the general goal for Avi grants is to support projects that um that you know Build and Grow the RV ecosystem and bring an influx of contributors that hopefully turn into long-term contributors for Ave um be uh some of the you know broad metrics we you know look at for you know projects as they should you know they could influence um uh revenue for Avi protocol um a growth of um volume retention of of TBL uh growth of users um and retention of those users growth if the number of community members generally um the people who just participate on on discourse and vote on governance forums um and the uh you know generally the number of Integrations that you know for example Avi launch V3 and the number of projects and protocols that integrate with with Avi uh for Avi since it's a lending protocol um we you know aim to improve increase the number of stable kind deposits and so you know like can we fund projects that um improve that um and uh and yes it's like a whole host of metrics I would say that um the you can't be like super quantitative like you know early on these are very early stage projects and so some of them um you know it might just be the first thing they're building and so uh like um you know Ken mention the example if uh you know swap funded by the F like um there probably wouldn't have been like a strong quantitative framework I think to fund uh uniswap um it probably was you know really talented um developer an interesting project and was probably worth funding um but uh but yeah like you know retroactively we definitely um look to analyze whether these whether the projects have been effective or not and one thing that's rather simple is like honestly if the Project's completed what like decently well and at a reasonable timeline it's usually been successful um and so rarely has there been a case where the Project's kind of completely reasonably well and like um and a reasonable timeline and it's it's kind of been a failure to to Ave grants um and so I would say the the buyer for vetting the projects is is higher so we look at you know ability for the team to execute um the uh the general Integrity of the team as well as the benefit to Avi um and the benefit of a maybe is covered by some of the metrics I outlined but uh typically if the teams complete the project and complete these Milestones um how they've outlined it's you it's usually a success um yeah he's building off of that I mean I I think we think about the word success we kind of think of it as like a binary like whether it's success or it's a failure right you either win or you lose but I don't know I mean I think there's like a broad spectrum of like what success actually means to the ecosystem and exactly as shares pointed out right like uniswap as a public good I think when we think when we when we decided to give the grant it wasn't that we thought like man we're going to create defy it's gonna be fantastic the EF did not we were not thinking like it's going to set off this whole thing you know the idea was create like an ether Delta or alternative right like have a decentralized exchange that was the goal right this is a public good um so you know when we think about success I mean I think you know we can always quantify different metrics in which like you know we can determine this is impactful in the future and we when we unpack kind of what we believed impact is going to be it's it's very hard to kind of say like oh we have a 10 hit rate or we have like you know 130 Roi on the TV out I mean yes and no right but you're also at the mercy of the market like you think about market share and so I don't know I'm I'm of the opinion that um when things are funded you have to think through what is the output here if this output is going to ultimately grow the pie for others um that itself is successful right even the failure to accomplish something is a success and I use example a lot but yesterday's talk we we had uh Carl and Hayden uh the opening ceremony and that's one of the things that came up right I tease Carl about this but plasma not that long ago existed as a scaling solution for ethereum State channels um also right things that we're going to say that they're going to make it work immediately that was in 2017 and you know here we are today and we don't really hear about plasma State channels too much but without that without without kind of everything that was built everything that was funded through grants for plasma we would not have and we would not see optimistic Roll-Ups as we see it today so you know ultimately success is this wide spectrum of like how productive is it going to be how how much impact are you going to have on the future and even again the failure to accomplish something itself can be successful yeah I totally agree um Grant is basically you could view it as a small subdivision of a growth department for the protocol and in that way it kind of has less tangible metrics that we can turn to we can obviously turn towards completion rates and like look at the analytics you know how many viewers or like whatever it was on the newsletter but at the end of the day it is going to be a bit more of a bigger picture than those small metrics obviously they are helpful to determine whether a grantee completed their work if they're you know if they did all that but at the end of the day we we like to think of you know very large scale growth for the protocol which which is is going to be determined on a multi-year scale yeah and I recognize going last and a list of three people is a pretty tough so I wonder Carl from another angle what can grantees do to kind of best report those results to you like what if what have you seen there yeah accountability is a big part of it definitely um with grants you know there is a a pretty high level of like self accountability where you need to kind of put yourself out there you can't be dependent on the grants team to like follow up on you the same way that a boss would or something like that you really have to be willing to put yourself out there and so that does mean selling yourself and selling the product that you're building and uh when you complete a grant you know obviously I think we speak for all of us the grants team is there to help in marketing and kind of putting it out there but but you definitely want to have some channels open and then kind of make sure that you're engaging with the community that you're working with and pushing the tool or whatever it might be that that you're building in order to increase the success rate amazing yeah cool I mean we are again talked about it so maybe I'll jump ahead to the public good side I mean um that that's a topic that's been coming up a lot recently especially there was a kind of a cool like retroactive public goods like you mentioned um thing that optimism did like how much do you think public goods falls into grant funding or maybe it's your Dows are specifically focused on actually getting you know maybe some more Roi for the underlying protocol but like how much of this do you think it's just kind of public goods and kind of supporting the community and is that a separate thing or is that through the Grand Styles um I don't know maybe Ken do you want to start on on that one you want me to start I I don't think I think the idea of public goods is is uh is amorphous for most people and just like not very tangible I think we like the meme of public goods right we should all fun public goods it's so great but like I don't know I think all of us would have different definitions of what public good is for us so I think it's it's very you know individualistic in terms of I guess like it's bespoke in in terms of like your protocol and your respective kind of like Circles of what that public good is going to be I think we can think of like base layer ethereum as the general public good for all of us right so if we're all except dydx but um I think you know I think supporting core infrastructure making sure that all of these things can exist making sure we're increasing the surface area and the different ways in which developers can participate and not just you know do things but like meaningfully participate like at youth Global hackathons right everyone going everyone who's hacking looking at developer documentation making sure that is robust making sure it's accessible to you know whatever language you want to build on right that itself is a public good I think if we're if we're thinking you know larger time scale of like how we can you know maintain everything we're also thinking of Bitcoin we're thinking of um all these other you know things like you know the one example that I think uh Scott Moore from Bitcoin likes to bring up is ethers JS you know this has been used for so long the core you know yeah tool for for most dapps and so that is a public good right when we think through how can we make sure that this is sustainable long term that is a question that grants has to sort of like tackle head-on and I think that's what retro public is funding is is extremely powerful because in hindsight yes this has been amazing but Richard Moore Richmond came up with this because he wanted an easier way to build that hackathons that was he didn't set out to make like a token a a company it was literally I want to build fun stuff I'm gonna have this Library so I can more easily do it that is the public good and so when we think through like you know how do you fund things you know that are productive it's thinking through how it helps other people how does it actually grow the pie for others and I don't know maybe I'm insane but when I think about it it is in the kind of it is a food-shaped pie of making it larger instead of all of us capturing different pies let's have one pie and let's share it yes hell yeah yeah I think optimism had to kind of impact equals profit as kind of a mantra and very similar to that like the more impact you have the kind of more profitable everything should grow um also yeah I'll be remiss to mention that all three of these styles are really critical in making each Global function all three of them are supporters of ours um and we really can't do it without these supporters so thank you all yeah it's not a jazz club um awesome okay cool um yeah maybe we'll move on to another quick topic here and and maybe this is kind of more the like thing that maybe people in this audience will be thinking about in the next like couple weeks um after they finish this crazy weekend um just like how to start with grandsta grants in general and like building an application and what do great applications look like um I'm kind of coming into the spaces thinking about like if I'm going to open an application it kind of feels like I'll put together like a VC slide deck like I don't know if that's how I should be thinking about it um I don't know maybe Trace you want to start off on this one just kind of like what do great applications look like and and and how to how to build one yeah I would say uh it's a yeah keep it pretty simple like Avi grants for example you can just go to avigrants.org and we have uh just a very short form that you fill out and um we're just I think the main things that stand out about good applications is just that they're generally specific and um and they outline what what you're planning to do what um and you know General timeline and and why your team is good to execute this beyond that we you know we don't look for extra fluff or you know it should it need not be the best like designed uh uh you know with sorry words or anything like that like our process is quite simple you send out this application um for Grants below um uh 20K they can be typically um approved just with reading the application from 20 to 70k uh we have um you know one of you are doing the application we have we could have interviews um and 70 to um 100K we have um potentially multiple interviews and then beyond 100K we also like to get the Ave Community involved so we'll ask you to post it on the governance Forum or um on Snapshot just get a temperature check but if we if it gets to that stage we definitely will you know guide you through that process of governance and kind of let the community know what we've thought of the Grant and um and you know where we are in the process so you know with that you wouldn't have to be um wired ready but the early stages of the process should be quite simple and maybe the you know bad applications are either what are the spam applications that have nothing or um or I think they you know they just have no specificity in terms of say like how is this project going to benefit AVI or how is it um you know what exactly are you doing that seems like possible within say three months or six months um we're very downward very ambitious projects as well we funded them but just some sense of um hey if it's a larger Grant and it's a more ambitious project like how can you actually just break it down into a few Milestones that seem tangible the and achievable I I suck because I pretty much don't answer any of your questions um uh so for when we think about grants and I'm just gonna just keep going metal but when you think about grants I think like the the most important thing is is less so about us like we as people who review your applications great I think you know we're not any smarter than anyone else who's building I think the the real thing that I think for us we want to see is what is it that you want to build what are your core values what is actually bringing you and kind of putting into position to want to apply for a grant and I think the the other thing that we have to think through is is not so much that like we are here to decide are you worthy yes or no that's just unfair what grants in in web 3 have allowed us to do is shift the Paradigm right we can think through I said this up but like finding grants and applying for funding is kind of like dating right there are three of us on the stage uh who can give you grants but not all three of us you know individually have we all have different goals we all want to see different things you can apply to all three of these programs and figure out is this right for me do I want to take your money the answer could be no right we could give you money all three of us can offer money to the same grantee but the grantee can say if you take away from my core values I don't want your funding I want to build this one thing these are the this is the the scope in which I want to build it and if you're taking me out of my comfort zone you're taking me out of my core values of what it is that I want to build for example uh you know there's a I guess like a say a Dap right a tool that is for governance but it's only using one specific form of governance and I don't want to conform to another standard for governance that's all I'm gonna build that's okay you can go to the the grant organization that's going to give you funding for exactly that but at the end of the day I think you know the most important thing is making sure that you are building something that you want to build something that you are passionate uh in right so so uh I would say that the Paradigm Shift here instead of thinking through what it is that we want or what it is that you know we are so specifically looking for you tell us what you want to build and we'll tell you we'll give you feedback as to whether or not this fits within the scope of say what like uniswap wants or what can be impacted Reno Swap and the answer is no it's not actually effective at all that's okay there's so many other funders out there yeah I totally agree it's All About the Passion really that's what we see in terms of success rates when it comes to grantees is only the really passionate ones who had the drive and the willingness to pursue the project that they were interested in doing end up completing it the rest of them kind of disappear or it frizzles out or whatever and so starting off what are you passionate and what is it that you want to do are you interested in this protocol Do you want to build on top of it if yes then apply for a grant there's a good chance that there's going to be room for you there as Ken said it's really like this is an incredible opportunity for builders in the space to be able to dictate what it is that they're going to work on it's it's actually quite fascinating you know it kind of in the in the chat 5 world you have to apply for a job and be told what it is that you're going to do here you can come up with your own job and be rewarded for it and then if you do a great job chances are the grants team is going to come and say all right what do you want to do now what do you want to do next like you delivered on this let's do it again let's give you another Grant build again and that just keeps going and then suddenly you find yourself an active contributor to that protocol and there you go now you've got it I mean that's a good point even if you build something this weekend that maybe doesn't fit or you don't want to continue on like as you mentioned there are all these rfps I think everybody here has a list of projects that um I guess requests for proposals for people that don't know what RFP means like I I think like a wish list like what they're looking for and you know they'll fund it they'll help you support you they'll give you a community there's all these people waiting to kind of take you into the under the fold and and and help you out so even if you're whatever you build this weekend doesn't make sense to continue there's a lot of other opportunities if I continue it anyway um okay I wanted to move into kind of like change change is a scary word obviously lots of things have changed over the last little bit um I guess maybe to start like um one of the big changes we've seen uh is just sort of uh how Dao's work externally with people and um even just kind of understanding more around like setting up entities and infrastructure and just sort of like connecting these Dows these pools of money into the real world where there are these kind of all these different restrictions um wanted to maybe start with Carl because I think you've done a lot of great work on this side um maybe just chatting about how um in general kind of the structure has changed over the last years uh on just kind of entity side infrastructure side thinking about kind of like integrating it in yeah for sure dydx um thanks to some legal Giga brains on the dydx team were able to actually transition the grants program into a Guernsey purpose trust which now gives us a legal wrapple wrapper around the entire like multi-sig effectively and so it converted what is just the committee which really is just the multi-six signers into whole trusts whereby the multi-stick designers now act as Trustees for the trust reverie access the enforcer for the trust and dydx token holders become the beneficiaries for the trust now what that really means is dydx and its community the doodx community now have full control over the entire grants program and they can effectively decide whatever they want in terms of like removing a trustee they can remove every as the enforcer if they want they can uh wind down the entire grants program if they want but but really what it means is us as the grants lead are now legally bounded to acts in the best interests of the dydx community which is really interesting and then there's obviously lots of other benefits to it um you know it's enabled us to have like this legal entity that we can use to interact with traditional service providers we can work with OTC market makers and stuff like that and have like an actual legal entity that we can point towards that is really just the grants program awesome anybody else want to add anything about how your programs have changed over the last couple years even doesn't have to just be entity side but just any ways that you've changed the way that you interact with the world outside of Dallas all right nice the any um the only thing that I think I mentioned that we've mainly changed is that we find much more many more events and and Community oriented projects um and not just developer projects and so with um I think initially uh we wanted to have more Focus but um but yeah as we got more confident in just um our allocations to develop backgrounds we thought we could expand this scope and um and now we do things um like you know take on more more media sponsorship or um or you know a lot of time sporting um hackathons and and other events and providing the the resources and coordinating with the Ave sort of uh company to uh you know just uh coordinate who's doing what and in a particular event which was typically you know done just by the company awesome I guess another change that's happened since a lot of these programs started is of course we're kind of moving into like a growing market and kind of a great macro and now we're kind of into uh maybe a more receding macro um it's a nice way of saying bear Market um like how are you guys thinking about changes kind of in addressing this new kind of Market um versus kind of how it was over the last couple years um and does that even change anything like I'm just kind of curious like how you're thinking about this and maybe we'll start with trios yeah in terms of our approach to funding grounds nothing has really changed um I think we're still looking actively to fund projects and we're you know not gotten um more conservative in funding projects I think um we we still are in the phase of of growing Ave and enso projects that generally you know benefit the RV ecosystem projects we want to fund and we want to always find like talented Builders and support them early to build useful things for the community um the one thing we did um well I think in the last uh proposal is we um we we got half the funding in in Ave and tokens and half the funding in usdc um and so obvious an interesting protocol because it's a it's a lending credit card it actually accrues ausdc in in um one of the you know Revenue collector contracts and so we actually got uh you know approved to have half the allocation in usdc which is really helpful especially you know if you're managing like a six-month budget in a highly volatile uh token that's just hard um and so having at least half of that in uh you know a denominated in US dollars since the granted denominating US Dollars it's very helpful and that's yeah in retrospect was uh was very helpful I think given the the um the market situation now but nothing has changed in terms of our general approach to fund projects yeah I guess um I've been doing grant since 2018. um but it's it's been crazy to see the change from like 2018 today in terms of the types of applicants that come through uh the types of projects that have come through the pipeline I mean just just the idea of what it is that we can build and sort of the the different expertise that comes through the pipeline now is just vastly different right I think like uh very recently we received a Grant application for a former Disney executive what are you building on uniswap so interesting um and and so maybe we'll see you soon but I think these things are are in terms of getting mind share for what it means to actually get a grant or what grants can do what that can unlock for people it's it's you know really blown me out of the water just thinking about um I mean I I believe that like for myself I you know having done this for like boomer years I am stagnant I'm like I feel like I'm not creative anymore compared to like everything else that comes through the pipeline and it's just like a beautiful sight to see when we do have fresh ideas and then I think that's like sort of the the I don't know the the fallacy in sort of like the the the market or in like crypto Twitter now where it's like oh it's the same being built over and over again but it's not you're seeing a lot of new like fresh ideas really trying to innovate different parts of the protocol and I love seeing that um yeah but you know more tangible things as Shreya said our entire multi-sig is in uni we are completely at the mercy of the market um I wish we could have usdc but the uni treasury does not have anything else uh and that's been tough being able to manage treasury uh I mean Trey has also like a master of like treasury diversification and just management I am not um and so you know we're now at a point where uh for us we are budget constrained we've committed almost we've committed at this point all of our funds from the multi-stick so now the pressure's on us to have to go to the multi-sig and or not sorry uh as as a grants program now go to um governance and ask for more money to expand the scope of what you know Swap Grants is going to look like the next iteration of Grants is going to look like and um that's an interesting kind of uh thing to think about right what have we done in the past what are high conviction bets that we made has this been successful full and you know if yes we should keep doing that or if not let's do other things but the the goal is definitely talk to the community and try to figure out what else can we do and that's I think those are the biggest changes noticing that the protocol is is not just us there are new players in their protocol there are more people doing more things now how do we all kind of coalesce and you know build stuff together as a community collaborating together yeah totally agree the uidx by the way is also in a similar position where we we got our funding in DUI DX token the market obviously has kind of shaved off some of that funding and we're now in a position where uh reverie actually just submitted a discussion to raise an additional round of funding from the community for our grants to be 1.5 which we're going to launch with a similar Mission but kind of hoping to take the lessons that we learned in V1 and apply them to V 1.5 and scale things up a bit more efficiently and not ever ready we have the infrastructure we'll be you know ready from day one basically in order to to Really launch and be able to support the grantees and the community through this program awesome um of course I know we're almost at time so I want to be sure to make sure that everybody gets time to plug what they're working on and exactly how to move the next step for Grants I'd plug my stuff but you're already here so thanks um so yeah maybe treyas do you want to chat about how to get started if you have an idea for for building on Ave or any any language involved yep very open to um any projects that Jenny benefit Ave and so um uh you know if you want to apply for a grant especially after you um uh you know build something initially you can go to avigrants.

org and it's quite a simple application to type anything uh one project idea maybe I'll plug is um we're looking to fund a like a governance interface um and so uh something that just lets like any uh any sort of non-technical governance but it's been just put up a governance proposal very easily and um and just have the key set of um you know actions that uh that that you know a typical governance proposal has like say you know just execute a transfer function a few other you know major functions for a governance proposal just in a very simple interface uh that will be hosted you know on ave.com and um and also just have a much simpler sort of view of um the existing proposals maybe even incorporate sort of discussions that um happen after the answer because it goes live uh and and easy ways that you can sort of see the delegates the top delegates and maybe delegate to a specific uh governance participants so there are tools out there like you know uh tally and other other projects that have that are building interesting uh governance Solutions um but uh but some of them actually have an integrated Avi because AVI has a different governance framework versus you know Bravo and Bravo and Alpha so if anyone's interested in that please apply or chat with me yeah plus one to that governance interface definitely needed I think we all need it um just in terms of just getting governance out there and making it more usable and making it you know easy to use I think is the big thing right it's not not very easy right now um and and I think for for Unison I think we have ten thousand dollars in bounties right is that right so yes something like that yes like 10 yeah ten thousand dollars in bounties um so we have uh some for the best and most interesting Integrations with uniswap and that is very vague do whatever that integration means to you whether it's interfaces simple Pro interfaces think about data visualizations analytics how do we think about that how do you integrate or like what is your integration with uniswap are you taking the front end are you taking the back end just the contracts the factory contracts I would love to see more t-wop uses yeah Innovative Oracle um really you know I I just want people to think about how the different parts of uniswap kind of play into other applications um and then we also have another Bounty for the most Innovative usage of unit swap so two different bounties but that is your imagination let it run wild do whatever you want with uniswap I would love to see it I think at the last 8th New York in 2019 one inch was started here so let's see some more yeah I guess plus two now on all of that basically uh dydx grants.com is where you can apply for grants for do idx uh we're yeah we're open for all kinds of ideas really anything that's going to benefit and grow the dydx community and protocol we're super interested in uh talking about t-waps we have like t-wop Bots and stuff like that that were built recently by grantees so anything that can sit externally of duidx and help Traders anybody really like become a more efficient Trader on dydx and research on perps you know whatever it might be where we're there and we'll be uh super excited to talk to all of you amazing well if anybody wants to build a governance dashboard I think that's an immediate easy win so I guess there's your free outcome here awesome well thank you so much guys I really appreciate you taking the time to chat with us um and uh welcome to have you and again thank you so much for supporting these events without your doubts it honestly would not be possible to do these events so we really appreciate it thank you [Applause]