Bringing DeFi to Everyone’s Pocket: Is it Ever Going to Happen? | EBC11

Good afternoon everyone. Thank you for joining us. Uh I'll just let everyone sit down and then I'll do some intros. Uh just while everyone finds their face, uh I'll uh Oh, I'm a long way away. There we go.

Um I'm I'm Chris, associate director and head of coms at Yap Global. Uh we're a PR agency uh supporting uh the European Blockchain Convention. Um so hopefully you've all uh seen this running around. Uh really nice to see so many people here, but not about me. This is about bringing DeFi to everyone's pocket and is it ever going to happen?

Um so I'd like to just start by uh getting our panel to introduce themselves to you. So um Alexi, do you want to kick us off?

So hey everyone, I'm Alexi. I'm the co-founder of Bob. Um, we specialize in bringing Bitcoin to DeFi. So, what we're building is something we consider the gateway to Bitcoin DeFi. We have made it our mission to make Bitcoin default, make it transparent, secure, and reliable.

Um, so if you have Bitcoin, you want yields, you go to Bob and you pick your strategy in its one click. Um, and I think, yeah, that's what we're talking about here today.

Amazing.

So, hi everyone. My name is Huain. I'm the COO of Tao. Tao is the first and so far only based roll up on Ethereum. So it's kind of like the only solution that scales Ethereum Ethereum in a decentralized manner.

So we bring to DeFi scalability and security.

Hi everyone. Um my name is Sebastian. I lead business development here at e yield.xyz. Uh what's sealed xyz?

We are an API infrastructure layer that aggregates yield opportunities on chain across native staking, liquid staking, restaking and DeFi. And we do that so that our clients, which are typically wallets, exchanges, and nail banks can go to market with an earn feature in a matter of weeks instead of months of integration with individual protocols and ST providers.

Hi, I'm Alan and I'm uh working for BBDU. Uh, BBTU is like a new entity that after the the license with Mika. Uh, we open a new entity and I'm leading the Spanish market.

Amazing. Thank you. Well, today we're going to go through a number of topics. We're going to cover off things like infrastructure and trust uh and regulation and a bit of culture as well. Um, so I want to start by jumping in on user experience.

Uh and I think the thing for me specifically um is is the most important piece is making this about the user. Um so I don't know wacky maybe I start with you. Um DeFi promised open finance yet usability still the biggest roadblock. Uh why has user experience lagged so far do you think?

Okay good question. Um I think uh to answer the question I will start by breaking down what DeFi actually brings to the table. Um DeFi is just a way of connecting people across the globe through financial products using the internet and the blockchain. So if we dive into this definition, we see that first of all they connect people without an intermediary peer-to-peer. Then through financial products I guess today everyone that has a financial product they interact with their bank if you want a mortgage the bank.

If you want a loan, the bank well defi enables me to give a loan to someone in uh I don't know someone in South Africa that I don't know and I don't want to know because I know that he will repay the loan because it's in the code right that's what DeFi enables. I don't need an intermediary to to make it happen.

Mic drop.

All okay. Okay. And uh and uh using internet and blockchain technology of course. So the if you think about it right we are we are giving individuals the power to do functions that before were reserved for banks or other or other financial institutions that is a lot of responsibility right and that that is scary to some extent and uh and I think one of the reasons why defi hasn't been adopted so far is because first of all the resp people don't want responsibility like people prefer to interact with a centralized exchange change than with DeFi and hold their own keys. Second of all, because regulation hasn't picked up, uh I think innovation goes faster than regulation and DeFi is a very good example.

There's so many types of assets that cannot be plugged into DeFi today like real world assets most of them securities and uh of course user experience is something that that needs to be improved. Um using a wallet is not intuitive. uh security of uh of the wallet is is is is not there. I've been I've been scammed like last year and I've been using crypto for several years. So if I get scammed, I guess my my dad could get scammed.

So that's why my dad is not getting into into blockchain into DeFi, right? So I guess UX lack of regulation and security are the main reasons why Defi is not yet mainstream.

Thank you, Alexi. I mean maybe you could follow up here from from a new users perspective what do you think the hardest parts are today uh like wallets gas fees or just understanding

well I mean you know people when they're you know using financial like assets and finance like think about neo banks like revolutes N26 Monza right they really emerged by simplifying the banking system right simple app simple interface and then they started offering you products where you could you know just deposit your assets into a managed account and you get like what two to three to 4% and it's just one click right and you you just trust them and of course initially they also struggled with the trust issue right um but since neo banks are regulated they get licenses right people start trusting them crypto is a bit different because the trust here is is based on technological advancement right you have a smart contract it's immutable your assets cannot be stolen um but for me as a user well how do I really know what the smart contract does right I'm I'm not usually able to look at the code not because it's not there. It's all open source. But how many people actually can read code? So you trust the app and then the app isn't someone who is licensed. Often it's not a wellestablished platform.

It's a startup. It's new. And you have this hurdle initially to build trust. And trust is always perceived. Um and the way we've kind of tried to solve this trust question in crypto was oh well let's be super transparent.

I'll you know you you have to set up your own wallet. You you manage your own passphrase. Um and then you have to you know go on chain and you have to bridge your assets and yeah this is by the way a bridged asset it's a rapper so you know that so we've kind of tried to compensate here with over being overly transparent and I think that's really good for power users who know what they're doing but then for for retail users um and like you know same like my dad he doesn't care that it's a wrapped asset like he just has you know if you have BDC and and you want to earn yield on it well you just want the yield right and you want to know that you're going to get it back um And so I think what we kind of went through is a phase of building the infrastructure making sure that you can have trustless interactions and for power users you can allow them to understand what they're doing and and now we can work on simplifying it but then the trust will come from if you look at a like why do we trust a well because it's so big it's been around for a long time it it's if you compare it to like banks it's actually up there um and that's how people trust it they don't trust it because they can read the code at this point and I think you know with time as time passes you you build this reputation um and you have more institutions and bigger players using it and honestly I think with exchanges like Coinbase for example moving into the space and offering CD5 products where the exchange is the front end but DeFi is the back end like what they did with Morpho is a very good starting point because you start to essentially tell users well you know it's okay to be on chain it's it's secure we'll offer it to you curate it at first but that's like the first step and I think the more users start, you know, using a morpho and unis swap through centralized interfaces, the more users will eventually transition to like using DeFi more natively.

Awesome. Thank you. Um, I'm going to bring you in Alan from Bybit's perspective. Um, so Bybit has millions of users interacting with crypto every day. Uh, what can DeFi learn from CFI's focus on simplicity and mobile experience, do you think?

I mean I think um BBI's mission has been always the the innovation and the the product um experience right the user experience in general. So I think um in BBDU now that is a new entity we're also trying to to make that bridge into making the the app like accessible for everyone. So for example, we just recently launched a new product that is the light version and that is our commitment to to that kind of entry user that is not a crypton native and now with the mika license that we can engage a different kind of audiences that uh people can can really access and as someone was mentioning in the panel like how can we make it for everyone right so imagine you wanted your father or your grandma to to kind of get into crypto it's an easy gateway right so I think by is um very committed into from a let's say D5 perspective to make it reliable and trustable now with with Mika and also from a CFI perspective um sorry from a CFI perspective and from a D5 to to don't forget the innovation part right um so yeah I think that's basically how I will frame it

amazing thank you um Sebastian um when it comes to DeFi what do you think users really want do you think they want returns simplicity or just trust.

I think um all of those three are very important. I think returns uh attract uh the users into the ecosystem but what keeps coming them back is uh trust right and for us as a B2B uh company we look at cyber security as one of the main trust factors. Uh we saw what happened approximately a month ago uh with one of the staking providers and so internally we take cyber security super super seriously. We hired um white hat hacker in-house white hat hacker who every day tries to penetrate our systems to make sure that they are foolproof. Uh we have a new protocol called shield where which mathematically proves that the transaction that is being proposed um uh is the same exact one as the one that's about to get signed.

uh we the user also has the ability to download the transaction into a readable format to make sure that what they're about to broadcast to network is exactly what they intend to do. So I think trust is probably the most important element out of those three. Thank you. Um I'm just going to move on to technology and infrastructure now um to spend a bit of time here. Um so I'll start with you uh if that's okay.

So uh great UX depends on invisible infrastructure. What are the foundational pieces still missing to make DeFi truly seamless, do you think?

Okay. Um, I guess first of all, um, when I think about DeFi, I think about Ethereum mostly because most of the TVL lives on Ethereum. And when I think about Ethereum, I think Ethereum plus all the layer chos. Turns out that specifically for DeFi that's a problem because each layer two is is an is an is isolated in terms of in terms of liquidity. Uh if we if we want a seamless user experience in D5 first of all we need unified liquidity either via interoperability solutions that that are really trustworthy.

I'm sorry but breaches probably don't don't fall into this category in my opinion. Most of the the money stolen in DeFi has been on on on bridges, smart contracts or through what we call synchronous composability, which is having the ability to tap into the liquidity of Ethereum seamlessly without breaches via CK technology plus S sequencer. So, so that's one thing I think rollups can can enable that base rollups can enable that. And second thing uh to make the defy experience uh as seamless as possible I guess would be um on the wallet side um I think account abstraction is um has room for improvement um social login you know we need to make the web 3 experience as similar as possible to web 2 one because that's what users on the internet are used to I guess so the combination of uh you know unfragmental liquidity plus making the UX uh much more easier and intuitive can can can bring DeFi mainstream.

Thank you. Do you have any thoughts on on bridges? I saw you

well I think you know there's there's kind of two camps I guess in DeFi. Um, and this has been a discussion we've had for ages like do people do we have app chains where each kind of chain is actually really just you know a place for people to go and use and people care about the products and not the infrastructure or will we have multiple different chains that people will move around and I think you know what we have today is we have a very strong core user base in DeFi that moves assets from chain to chain goes farming new opportunities new new incentive campaigns and they care about bridges but retail users realistically they just go to the platform they trust they want a simple interface. They don't care about the chain. Um, and I think, you know, from a chain's perspective, right, you want to keep your users like you're a platform. Like Binance doesn't necessarily want their users to be able to move to another platform.

And same for Bybit, right? They probably don't want users to go away from Bybit into another exchange, right? What you want is to provide your users on your platform the best possible experience and then, you know, attract other users. Um and I think that's like that's where I think interpability is is definitely an aspect but I I think you know it will be hidden from the user. I don't think retail cares.

Who cares are the market makers, the solvers, the apps like that act in the background that form part of the apps and the infrastructure and they might need to rebalance between different chains. But for users at the end, they they really just care about the apps and I think their account like account abstraction and smart accounts is probably the bigger unlock than you know making interpability better. Uh people don't want to worry about you know how the things settle in the background. When you go to an ETM, you withdraw cash, you don't care how the ETM talks to your bank account. You really don't.

Um, and so really like paying fees in any token, having a social login, a pass key, basically merging the the standards of just like security that we as we have them today with DF applications is the way to go.

Amazing. I'm you you kind of mentioned Alan and Bybit there. So I'm just going to jump over um just to ask um I guess as as Bybit moves towards DeFi integration um how do you see CFI and DeFi converging technically and commercially as well? Yeah, I mean we have a an internal project that is called by real that is um a project that was incubated by uh by bit and it's a dex it's like unis swap and basically is our way of uh having that kind of mix between cfi defi um and I think the the offer and the in a way I was also listening to the panelists and and I I do agree that we need to to lift uh too much complexity when it comes to the user journey. I mean before uh being in Bit I was in a in a layer one project and I remember like how complex was for me even to understand like how to connect like many aggregators into like connect metamass and then from metamas to layer one and so on.

So I think um in in our case for example with B real we have that kind of um offer to to our users as well to choose right between you want to use D5 or CFI and and I think it's it's as well um an invitation for everyone in the ecosystem to make something more friendly right and and now that we are making that proper bridge between web two and web three I think we should really committing to be giving not not only like a better user experience but like a more easy and and and let's say an easier path for the for the user to to really understand the ecosystem because in in a way for most of the majority that are not cryptonative it might be very complex.

Thank you. Um s um yield aggregates protocols behind the scenes but what's the hardest check tech challenge in abstracting that complexity safely do you think?

For sure. So if you think about where we are today, when you on board a new user into our ecosystem, uh they have to first open an account with an exchange like BBIT, then they have to onramp some some funds, send it to a MetaMask wallet, land on Morpho's website, maybe do a few swaps and bridges in the interim. Bridging is extremely scary. Um when you land on the Morpho website, you have a huge selection of vaults that you can choose from. Uh all of them look the same.

The only thing that changes are the APYs. Let's say you select the vault, you deploy some funds and then you generate yield in not just your deposit token but some incentive tokens like Morpho token and well token tokens that you probably don't even want as a user. So super complex. What we've done at Yield XYZ is we've abstracted a lot of this complexity away. We have smart contracts that for our users if they have let's say some even fiat in um in their checking account we can automatically on-ramp the funds for them we can swap them we can bridge them deploy them into a a morpho vault we every 8 hours we are able to harvest uh the rewards that they're generating into that morpho vault we swap everything back into the deposit token and we redeploy them into the vault to make sure that the APY that they receive is the actual one that's displayed on the on the morpho vault So we've worked really really hard to try to abstract as much of the complexity away as possible and I think where we are today is a much more seamless and userfriendly experience.

Awesome. Thank you. I'm I'm actually going to stick with you. Um we've talked a bit about trust but I'd like to talk a bit more about regulation and safety as well. Um so maybe we just start with um the fact security and trust remain the biggest obstacles.

How do you design systems that feel safe enough for everyday users? Um for sure. So as an API we are just a technology layer that essentially crafts the transaction uh that allows you to deploy funds on chain. So from a regulatory perspective um we are not exposed per se but um but the clients we work with uh are so all of the uh nail banks like DB block and Tuyo who we work very closely with they KYC and KYB all of their users um and um we make sure that we are as compliant as possible on our side on the cyber security aspect of things where um we uh we have checks in place to make sure we we protect customer funds as much as possible. Um, Rain, anything to add to that?

I guess not really. I think you cover mostly everything. But on when it comes to the blockchain infrastructure level, I think uh I think Ethereum is the safest for sure. And uh and uh when we talk about security, I like to think of it from two angles. First of all is blockchain security, which is where Ethereum excels.

Why? because you need so much money to make a 51% attack. It's secured by by of course it's secured by a lot of different validators on a very decentralized manner, but at the same time is secure by a lot of ETH and in order to take over the network, you need a lot of a lot of a lot of ETH, which is impossible as of today. But I also think of security from um application or a smart contract level and I think Alexi mentioned it before. Um this is where it gets a little bit uh a little bit trickier because you need to trust um someone that will do the job properly.

There's audits of course uh but uh you know audits can fail. Um and this is where I think open source um makes um makes a very important attribute for blockchain security because the fact that anyone in the space can check the code and it happens a lot and report a bug is very important. If anyone can see something and not and no one says anything about it is is it's more unlikely that uh that the code is is buggy.

Great. Thank you. Um, Alexi, uh, Bitcoin's always led with security first. How does that ethos influence how we build trustworthy DeFi?

I mean, that's a that's a very good question. Um, because there has been quite the disconnect between Bitcoin and DeFi for over a decade now. Um, Bitcoin has suffered and gone through it's a bit of a dark age after the block size wars when you know Bitcoin Cash split up and then everybody within the core Bitcoin community a lot of people kind of were shunned like if you wanted to change Bitcoin you know add more tools you were kind of told well go somewhere else we don't want this here um but then over the last three years we've kind of entered a Bitcoin renaissance where a lot of innovators have come back started building on Bitcoin we've had ordinals like NFTs on Bitcoin and now we for the first time we have native Bitcoin staking we have a way to is to build real rollups on Bitcoin, right? The way that we have them on Ethereum, we can now actually do this on BDC, which of course raises the question of like, okay, do you need 5,000 different chains? If you can do all of that on Bitcoin, which is the most secure chain, it has the most widely adopted digital asset.

It's the one thing that everybody trusts in crypto, whether you're ETH Maxi Solana, everybody likes Bitcoin. Um, the challenge that and I think it's a very good way to visualize the struggle of of Bitcoin users in in with DeFi. Um because like security is not just about the the chain like you know people trust Ethereum, people trust Bitcoin. You know we're not talking necessarily about that kind of a security. Um then the smart contract logic well okay people can learn to trust that um the the difficulty is still with this perception right a very good example is is Bitcoin here.

There are there is no way currently just just yet to use Bitcoin natively in DeFi. If you want to use it in DeFi, you have to go to Ethereum, Salana, Avalanche, all these other chains and you have to use a bridge. Now, the problem is there's 50 different bridges. There's 50 different rappers across 50 plus different chains. How do you choose?

They all have different risk models. It's not transparent. People don't know. And that choice and often like in in in DeFi, we feel like, oh, you know, we'll we'll give the user the choice. We'll show all these details and you know, they will have to and we tell them do your own research and and that just doesn't work.

like people don't want to do their own research. So it's really like I think we built a very secure system. We're very transparent about it. There's very secure ways to use D5 and sure bridges are obviously always a problem. But if you want to get to mass adoption and onboard the like new users, not the same kind, not fight for the same pool of D5 power users, but actually bring in new users.

And again, Bitcoin is a prime example. There's over 300 million people that have BDC and they want to use it, but it's just very painful to do. And you know working with Bitcoin users is is probably the most difficult in the space. Of course if at least in terms of crypto users of course if you go to somebody who's never used you know anything but a bank it's more difficult but they are very conservative in terms of like what they do with a bitcoin how to use it and the it's it's quite interesting that bitcoin defi although bitcoin as an chain as an asset are perceived as very secure defi for bitcoin is perceived as risky because there is no easy way to on ram. There is no single unified platform um just yet that allows you to just oneclick deploy into all these different products and chains and abstracts this complexity for you um or the at least you know there are platforms like we just built something but it's still new and the only way to gain trust is by working with some of the bigger institutions plugging this in as a backend to trusted providers like centralized exchange platforms wallets and so on.

um where you essentially build perceived trust for the user and of course you have to you know hold up your end of the promise and make sure that the smart contracts are audited and that you have enough users um and eventually people will start trusting the system because you know you've built the brand like again example of a u but there is no way to shortcut this right it just takes time and the only way that we can improve this is essentially by as as a defi ecosystem not going out and saying oh let's replace all the centralized providers is let's replace T stratfi and go directly use DeFi manage your own private key but rather working together and you know offering better solutions because DeFi often has a better solution product-wise it's 24/7 it's always accessible it's transparent it's easier to verify and and to basically also build other products around it um and so you know what we see what we're seeing with exchanges right now is is probably the the correct first step of of bridging this gap and then you'll see more uh bigger financial institutions probably board that ship as well.

Thank you. Um Alan, um Europe's rolling out Micah. Um how can regulation build confidence without killing innovation?

I mean um I will I can put an example. Um and we were talking previously about Bitcoin. Maybe it's a different topic, but like I just want to add in and link into the next into your question. Um I think for example for us Bitcoin has been like the gateway into making or serving as that connector for institutions. Uh I mean part of their treasury they want to have uh a part of it on Bitcoin and so on.

So we serve as them for like their um not only liquidity providers but like their custodians for making this uh and then when it comes for um can can you repeat the question?

Of course. Yeah, it was um that Micah's rolling uh sorry, Europe is rolling out Micah. Um how can regulation build confidence without killing? Yes. And then um linking into that um I mean for example we uh I don't know if you guys know but we we have the Bit card for example that is a clear example of how um from a product offer perspective um I mean now you can see that bridge between web two and web three right like we have a partner with Mastercard and that's our commitment and I think that's what it centralizing to our uh focus into bringing literally DeFi to everybody's this pocket is like as simple as having your card making this on ramp from fiat to crypto and just tapping into your Apple Pay so you can have it virtually or or physically and the way that we we are doing that is so we are using the framework that Mika has set up to to be compliant trustworthy and so on um and not killing the innovation right like how do we make it seamlessly and and giving like a different offer compared to some other because yes maybe there might be many of many other options of of cards.

But that's our proposal for the for the users to have this kind of uh gap between the two ecosystems in a way.

Thank you. I'm going to I'm going to jump into the future because I'm conscious of time. Uh but let's talk about global adoption, stable coins and culture. Um yeah, let's fast forward. Uh if DeFi really and truly reaches everyone's pocket, what does that look like uh from an onboarding and everyday use?

Uh maybe I'll start uh do you want to maybe start with that one?

Sure. Um I guess it needs to be completely abstracted. Um I think uh well first of all it needs to replicate a web two experience that's for sure. uh if if we want it to be massively on boarded and uh and uh I would say that D5 is massively on boarded when uh corporates uh start using DeFi. Uh why?

Because uh one of the things that we are focusing on in Tao is on cooperative institutional adoption. We believe that that's where where where where the real money lies. I think 95% of DeFi users today are just gill farmers are looking for the ge. That's I'm sorry, but that's not adoption. Every chain is putting a lot of money to to make their yield the highest and attract the TVL except Ethereum and uh and that's not real adoption.

So I guess when the when the when the user experience is completely completely abstracted completely abstracted like web you like and we see institutions corporates putting their money on defi I would say that's where when defi could be massively adopted and yeah we can say it's part of our lives.

Awesome. Thank you. Uh Seb do you want to jump in with your thoughts?

For sure. So I think um one of the parts of the ecosystem where we've seen mass adoption already is stable coins. I think um stable coins have a perfect product to market fit and at yield we are working more and more with um uh US-based payment service providers that uh operate in the remittance business and um families in the US that want to for example uh send some money back to their um extended family in Brazil, Mexico or other parts of Latin America. Before it would be a very complex system through the Swift network. They would they would be killed on exchange fees.

Now they have these um apps that they can download from the app store. They can KYC and um essentially have access to stable coins. So they're able to send USC or USDT down to a family member in Brazil and then their family member in Brazil can decide if they want to offramp that down to Brazilian royals or keep it in stables um on that on that same platform and generate generate yield on on that USC or USDT. So, I think that's where we've seen mass adoption and uh stable coins just have like a perfect product market fit and we have to continue building on that. Uh Alexi, do you want to add anything?

Well, I mean I I fully agree like I mean it has to be fully abstracted. Um I will say that you know yield is still probably the hook, right? I think yield is what's be missing in like a lot of the traditional banks. That's why neo banks emerged and essentially you know now have like Apple offering yield basically on on on dollars right and that's what attracts users. Um everybody hates inflation.

Everybody's very conscious of like you know maintaining the purchasing power. Um so you know yield is certainly where DeFi can excel because you have much more sophisticated ways of how you can build these products in a transparent and composable way. Um now of course you know yield farmer like the question is where does yield come from? if it's just from chains like throwing their native token. Yeah, that doesn't really work, right?

So, you know, it works if you have like, you know, if you want to just bootstrap and essentially that's what PayPal did, right? They were giving out free money to on board users, but eventually it has to kind of work. Um, but yeah, so I think, you know, the question is how do you actually, you know, get sustainable yield from DeFi? And that's still where there's a struggle right now because it's just compared to the size of of, you know, the demand. And again, same problem with bringing in Bitcoin.

Again, Bitcoin is bigger than everything else. There's so much demand to earn yield on Bitcoin. But then like what we do is we we try to match like people who look for yield with products that match a risk profile. And the problem with DeFi is that you have these products but the size is just limited. So you end up right now still trying to find a balance between off-chain and onchain yield sources just because well DeFi is still growing.

Thank you. Um Alan, you you've called stable coins uh DeFi's Trojan horse. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?

I mean I I I call them the Troan horse just basically with what Sebastian mentioned, right? I think they have served in so many countries where you suffer inflation like you know Venezuela, Argentina, Mexico where you have this kind of uh volatility and I think the the stable cons has served as as a as a gateway for the people to to have a sustainable economy right so I think the best way that you can see that DeFi is becoming on a on a daily basis is when you start seeing this kind of um let's say utility for people that for example I remember in Argentina back in the days when the the dollar was getting higher and high, it was the only way to to kind of stabilize some somehow and people were very into the the mass adoption and and cryp adoption because of that. So that's why I call them the the Torian horses because they they have become like naturally smoothly into a daily a daily day-to-day basis.

Thank you. We're we're getting towards the end so I'm going to just uh do a bit of a closing round question here. Um, what single milestone uh would tell you that DeFi has gone mainstream? What's what's our iPhone moment, do you think? Who who'd like to take it first?

I mean, I think again always kind of, you know, wearing like, you know, waving the Bitcoin uh the Bitcoin flag here. Uh, you have the ETF right now, which is a perfect way of, you know, achieving more distribution, getting more people, you know, to buy whole Bitcoin, and that's often like the, you know, the gateway into crypto anyway. Um, from our perspective, I think, you know, when we know we've succeeded with DeFi is when there's more Bitcoin used in DeFi in a trust minimized manner on Bitcoin L2s and other chains than is locked up in the ETFs because then you actually then you see that okay, we've built a system that can stomach and actually, you know, provide products to that kind of capital. Um and if we don't succeed and if in you know 10 years down the road I have to go to my bank and ask if I am allowed to send around Bitcoin and use it well then actually we failed as an entire industry.

Thank you.

Okay. I would say when regulated corporates step into DeFi that would be the moment where I feel like uh D5 is mainstream adopted. Um I think we are already seeing a a trend uh with RWAS even governments governments are be as stable coins to continue with the Troan horse analogy. Uh they're even using stable coins and defy in a sense stable coins to to refinance their depth. We're seeing it with the genius act of the United States.

like turns out that uh that Trump is now allowing um making making stable coins legal and one of the one of the assets of the few assets that you can that you can collateralize that stable coin with is the US treasuries. So they are using DeFi and stable coins to refinance their depth which is crazy. So um but again I think um that that's they have an interest to do so. I think corporates that are so regulated, they have obligations with their clients when they when they step into real DeFi and not only tokenization and leave the assets on the wallet like DeFi, I would say okay DeFi is uh is mainstream adopted.

Thank you.

Yeah. And for me it is when we see a spark by maker DAO or Morpho available on our traditional banking apps like Sentinere or Barclays. Um that would be that would be awesome. I think we first started uh by having access to earn features on exchanges like BBIT. Um now we graduated to making those available on nail bank platforms like Revolute where you can stake.

You have a limited staking offering but you can stake your assets. But the real win will be when we have access to DeFi on major traditional banking platforms. Awesome. Final word from Alan. Um I mean thinking back on on a mainstream momentum I think for example in bid was when they offered traiy right that it was like a the first time that an exchange became more than a sex and more like a let's say a traditional institutional more offering uh gold or some other things beyond just only stable coins or any kind of tokens right so yeah and I hope that we can do much better for the future as well

amazing well I just want to say thank you to all of you for joining me today and thank you for all attending. Um, give a round of applause for the panelists.