Infrastructure Interoperability and Multi-chain Networks | European Blockchain Convention

[Music] hello everyone can you hear me properly perfect so number one thank you for joining today for a very interesting topic for the people who are not still too hungry already 11 so number one thing is that today as you know over the past decade there's been a lot of innovation a lot on the blockchain technology and there are so many that it could be interesting to try to connect them together so that's the topic of today why interoperability matters so first before anything else I'm e Michelle Le I work for a wonderful company where we try to make traceability with blockchain but I will also leave the ground to elmut first to present himself very briefly and to turn the bass uh hi welcome to everyone uh nice to be able to speak about a bit here about us uh I am helmo seel I am a Visionary of one of the oldest still existing blockchains in the ecosystem which will relaunch this year with one of the newest uh unique uh Technologies as a base yeah yeah hello my name is Juan Juan I'm actually working from bit Panda um more specifically I am the engineering Mayer for the pantos project which probably some of you already know around uh which is a multi blockchain token develop you know from research from an open source perspective I am Jenna Peterson with the injective foundation supporting the injective ecosystem an L1 that launched in late 2021 and has traded almost $40 billion fully on chain we are expanding our connectivity to other ecosystems and I'm glad to be part of this panel hello good morning my name is pan working for the European Commission in the commission we are doing regulations but also we are implementing digital Solutions and this is why I'm here I'm the epsc the European blockchain service infrastructure team leader thank you and hi everyone my name is Mauricio buy I'm the co-founder and CEO of search Hora we're a multi-chain search engine block Explorer which re unifies every single new chain roll up uh L1 L2 L3 out there we're looking to bring every single chain back to a single unified interface that let you transact with every single good and onchain good and service thank you very much all of you actually the first thing I believe we all need to know maybe bunny you could help us uh well inability is nice but could you provide us a broad overview of what exists right now on the market so I I like to be very practical when it comes to these types of conversations um when it comes to interoperability just as a very quick definition is interoperations of different entities in this case these two entities are blockchains um it interoperability effectively seeks to solve how do two chains that are not connected interact with each other interoperate with each other so that's been a question that we've been trying to solve for I guess since the very first blockchain was born Bitcoin uh 20 2008 2009 um since then there's been a few ecosystems that have given it their best shot um among some of them the team po Cosmos came up with some more native ined interoperability Solutions one that which choose base layer to be able to allow two different chains to go back to the base layer and communicate with each other another one embedded interoperability between the same me within the mechanism itself of the chain so therefore interop interoperability was embedded into every single new program that was deployed on this chain and then what we've effectively seen played out uh and I just checked defi llama to see what are the top 10 interoperability Solutions these past I I guess until today uh what we see is that every single new blockchain has come up for better for worse with their own interoperability standard if you want to interact with a certain chain you are able to use their native Bridge meaning their own standard they came up with when they were developing their chain is this the best solution maybe yes maybe not it's created a very fragmented approach to interacting with all these different chains that's one two there's a couple other I guess intense space interoperability solutions they came up with um the the whole notion that maybe the user can express the intention to do something and the user doesn't need to know how this intent was fulfilled that is an okay approach it's made it's transacted billions of dollars up up to today uh two of the largest companies in the industry uh unisoft and across have created this standard to be able to allow for interoperability across different evm based chains uh so it's been a very successful one and a very third quick example um we've seen interoperability dri buy products like Circle which created a cross-chain transfer protocol which again has also transacted billions of dollars um in which they created interoperability specifically for the usdc uh coin as well as now more recently for Euro C which is the circle uh EUR European stable coin thank you very much Benny so that's the point okay we have usdc usdt all these wonderful stable coins but the point is why do we you need it maybe Jenna you could help us it seems that you've been doing some helpful I would say work over the over the past years with uh injective Labs so it's say injective is leading the cross chain narrative we understand that money and digital assets can't be siloed they need to be able to Traverse multiple blockchains we have an svm roll up we're very excited that by end of year we'll have full evm compatibility which will open a lot of doorways for the injective and Cosmos ecosystem IBC is working on connectivity to other major blockchains like Avalanche and some of the other initiatives we have this year are native stable coin issuances as well as real world application deployments and again money needs to be able to move seamlessly and right now institutions and and Retail have a very painful exercise if they want to go ahead and deploy their assets anywhere in defi Beyond where um they were initially launched developers love the ability to build on injective and have connectivity to other blockchains users love the ability to take advantage of assets that they Bridge into injective to deploy on our um deck helix or to be able to use on borrow and lend applications as collateral um and and we are proud to be part of the expansion of ecosystems I think previously everyone was concerned about creating growing and expanding their own ecosystem without realizing that if we're going to go ahead and change the Global Financial structure it's going to take a village it's going to take every ecosystem not just one single legal system please note I've been contacted at some point in time as a professional by also the Cal Bank of France they try to really do it also the problem is that they don't always have all the time money skills so it's really an ecosystem work we all have to work on this topic and more specifically uh the uh European commission is really making an amazing job try to simplify our work and I think you can explain as Jose what's been being realized so when we are talking about something that sometimes is not very tangible like interoperability ER we the commission together with the member State we drafted what we call the European interoperability framework which is a set of principles and guidelines to provide some guidance about interoperability um we consider that it is needed because interoperability of Digital Services is something that is crucial and is ided in the spirit of the European Union treaty as part of the movement of goods and services and also we consider that the lack of interoperability is a big obstacle for the European digital single market and for that this concrete framework is providing a model based on four layers that they they are defining the different angles of interoperability they are considering the legal organizational semantic and Technical interoperability talking quickly about these three these four layers for example uh the legal inter operability we are working with different domains that they have different regulations and it's something that is crucial to reduce and to the to reduce digital Solutions in a harmonized way we can give you an example in epsy to electronic to to provide electronic seals and signatures to verifyable credentials that can be verified in the blockchain we are reducing the legal framework of electronic signatures defining in the idas regulation for the interoperability of organizational interoperability and governance interoperability in Epi we have defined a trust model I mean in Epi we are implementing trust between companies in the way that in Europe we have been building during these years we have actors that can do things for example trusted issuers of digital informations and other actors that are accrediting these actors to do these things what we call the trusted accreditation organizations in that way we are implementing a trust model very flexible to Define and to implement in blockchain trusted relationship between organizations and following the last layers of interoperability talking about semantics we need to understand each other so we have to define a common way to represent information in epsi we are using Open Standards to define the semantics of the different use cases for example in epsi we have implemented the European learning model which is a data model to represent official diplomas that can be verified in in blockchain and just to finish the last layer and maybe the most important is the technological interoperability for for that reason we are we have drafted technical specifications for example to issue to verify a verifi cenal in blockchain to implement this trust model in the blockchain but what we see is more important and this is what we have been developing this year we are providing conformance services so they are sell Services which every company that wants to deploy a software or a service based on the EPC specifications they can use this Self Service to provide and to receive a report that what they are doing is align with our specifications that's absolutely amazing please not that European Union is really trying to help everybody we have GA X project with data spaces you have the EPC trying to create framework they also provide an infrastructure the problem as we can see is at 90% of the time the problem then happens to okay we have some great definition how do we technically apply it so I will believe that we will need some help again from new to explain how the technicality are applied now because that's good to have interoperability but why what are the challenges you face or even Jenna after that why is it so complicated to say oh you know what I have my technology it's going to be easy peasy seem like I I think the fact that um I I like to take a historical approach to this is the the fact is that blockchains the by the sheer nature of us being a hyper decentralized community and ecosystem uh we've come up with a lot of our own ideas of how to make interoperability work beyond that we've come up with our own metrics that we like to optimize for for every single new chain to be stood up on and and then be worked on WE every single chain has their own SDK uh there's some chain clusters which are able to more easily talk to one another because they were developed by the same SDK um we've seen pretty good interoperability interoperability amongst these clusters especially within let's say uh the clusters of optimism uh with the super chain and then arbitr with orbit chains uh because they were able to finally reach consensus as a community to use exact same asdk and be able to interoperate with each other they're able to more easily communicate however this more so follows technical guidelines as opposed of any compliance or regulatory guidelines there are some nuances to let's say intense based models in which if it's truly permissionless you have a relayer network which is the one that fulfills your order uh of your intent from let's say go from a place a to place B with token one but you don't know who is giving you the liquidity for that you don't know if it's a trusted entity that uh is completely regulat or if it's someone engaging in bad practices that has been banned from the that should be banned from this network so I think that it's actually really helpful to hold this places for conversations to actually figure out okay we want to build this technology we build already technology that works to interoperate with different blockchains which ones are the ones that work the best thank you Benny maybe Jenna you can also provide us some feed back of your technical experience of what are why it takes so long from one technology to connect to the other typically in the context of evm why do you believe that your company is really doing its best regarding timing complexity and yet safety because doesn't look like there are billions crossing your system so tell us why it takes so long I think it's more of an issue than technological integration there's also economics there's also Eagles there's also Focus everyone in blockchain is trying to get so much done with so little resources and it wasn't initially a focus everyone was going to build the best and brightest blockchain and had no need to connect to anyone else and I think that narrative is changing as everyone realizes blockchain uh should connect in many cases and how do you overcome the technical issues there are a lot of people like Dora building um when we rolled out svm that was in conjunction with eclipse and Cascade so there are partners that you can use to to overcome the technical hurdles then it becomes a question of how do you go ahead and incentivize daps to go ahead and work with other ecosystems since people right now tend to launch in one ecosystem and they're they're maximalists right like trying to talk to a BTC maximalist to go ahead and start using ethereum is is an interesting conversation that's not a technical issue necessarily it's a fundamental issue or a bey decision and injective realizes it's really important for the next generation of financial Primitives and and deployments to be cross chain it's in the developers best interest it's in the institution's best interest it's in the users best interest which is why we are rolling out in evbm why we rolled out svm why we're excited that IBC is expanding beyond the cosmos ecosystem to other l1s like avalant um to use a a web to example when ATM cards first rolled out you could only use your ATM at your own bank and then slowly they started allowing you to use your ATM card in your own country and now I can take my ATM card and use it anywhere in the world pretty much they might charge me a small fee but I can use that card anywhere and I think we need to get blocked blockchain to that point if you want to use ad Dap You just don't even think about the technology you just want to use your ATM card I would say a a bad comparison would be the Telco Network I have a cell phone and yes I can roam around the world sometimes but it's very very expensive to do so so I'm sure everyone here at the conference has an eim that they use when they're here in Spain if they don't have a Spanish cellular and then when you go to token and Singapore you get another eem that's a pain point that hasn't been solved um well I think in for the use case and blockchain is aware that the technical implementation needs to be done right and that's why I think Dora and other people in this industry are really trying to get us to that Finish Line regarding the eim card we can have a look to the perfect people from hacken you know they can tell the way not to have such a price you know the third point of interest is that well okay we are interoperable between ethereum and whatever technology could be IP Ledger could be Cosmos could be the name you want PKA dot everybody say yeah the future metaverse whatsoever but before that distance future we have a real problem today immediately oh I love you a lot but um please note that we have more Bitcoin transaction today than we we have on our wonderful card so it's larger no one would have believed it how did you do that thanks to other Technologies like layer 1 2 3 whatever you can imagine elut can tell us more and why there is some kind of issues of interrup ability not just between let's say difference protocol but also between layers okay let's let's try to explain it um I think when we talking about interoperability then uh we we need to understand understanding what what is the main reason what's driving us go there yeah uh and there are one one thing is uh freedom of choice that when you're running a project or you're a user of blockchain Technology uh you you can run your project on top of that blockchain which which have the proper abilities it's not all layer one chains have the same abilities yeah uh and so interop interoperability give us the freedom of choice to run our projects on top of that chain we want yeah and the other the other issue we have is is scaling yeah because there's not that one blockchain which can handle all the work so we all hope that blockchain is growing and growing and there there won't be one chain who can handle it all yeah but if one chain cannot handle it 10 chains can if 10 cannot 100 can and if 100 don't can 1,000 chains can yeah so scalability is solved with interoperability uh and there are now multiple paths we see now yeah there are one puff is going through a middle chain yeah for example bulad Cosmos so other layer one chains attached to the middle chain and they can interact by utilizing the middle chain yeah then another another solution we see I call this uh um Central chains yeah there's there's one chain in the center example Bitcoin and there are some protocols on top of it like liing yeah or uh there etherum and then a lot of layer to chains are attached to it and they interact uh via the center chain yeah and the third approach is that could be many independent uh decentralized layer one blockchains with different abilities and multiple different uh open decentralized uh multi-chain protocols connecting them yeah and out of these three solutions I I did mention here I think it's the only one uh which you could uh call to be uh follow in the core idea of blockchain Technology as it's written in the Bitcoin white paper yeah it's the only solution that is really decentralized uh and uh where uh if if one point is failing the whole thing is not breaking apart the failing thing is only failing for itself the rest is still operating this is what decentralization is meaning yeah um and yeah but this basically so if we summarize actually layer one versus layer 2 or layer zero why is it so important yeah layer one versus Layer Two I think it's really the decentralization part yeah it's it's uh on the layer two the layer two is attached to one chain yeah and and if this chain have issue the layer two is not working because it's it's not really independent blockchain yeah it's a it's a like an expansion of a blockchain yeah this uh and and I think the the future is most likely all three of the Puffs I did mention before uh working hand inand because there there's no reason why not a a construct with a middle chain and a construct with a with a Center Chain isn't able to take part uh in uh multichain protocols interacting or helping many layer ones to interact with each other yeah so it's so it's all together will will form the future of a heterog again inter aable blockchain which which consists of many blockchains able to interact with each other yeah uh and it's the freedom of choice for projects to choose where we place our project on top thank you very much so I understand we also have all around the sector quite a problem regarding okay it's connecting you know just like when you connect with new friends and you feel a bit sick at the end you know it's kind of aspect we call that cyber security usually in our realm so how do we actually manage cyber security because as you know when with with Juan is working for a wonderful stand you know there I think it starts with panda so the point that cyber security is just a Cornerstone for people to trust especially if you don't know them so how do you actually believe it's very important in the context of multi-chain and interoperability yeah that's a really good point there so I think there are like basically two kind of systems right those that have been hack are the ones that are going to be hacked right that's the only distinction we can make here right so in this sense you got and let be completely honest about this in this world crypto world we cannot trust absolutely anything right so in other kind of solutions other Technologies people normally diversify their Solutions right you don't trust only one single supplier right you just go for several of them I mean you are not going to put to put all your assets on yarn one single infrastructure one single player right you try to just diversify the entire thing so in this sense building a multi- blockchain solution I guess is should be your first uh goal if you're are building a Project based on on tokens right because we are seeing this thing like every day solutions that come here they look promising right and in two months surprise there's a security break all your staff is compromised all your project bu on top of that them is compromised you know years of development just gone wasted right so in this sense for example in bit Panda and that's where I have to say to mention the pandas project right we be building something uh with a longterm idea of building something that can been sustainable right how do you make it sustainable okay bring different blockchains into the game right put a token that does not really depend only on one single blockchain make it compatible with different actors right how do you decide which actors are going to come they will change right what we consider today secure tomorrow is not going to be secure for sure or there will be new players coming around will be more interesting for our project right so we are going to build tokens for our project depending on several blockchains where we can really choose which one is the one we really need let's go for it build it because right now we know most of these projects are BAS Bally shortterm design right looking for some sort of profitability in six seven months right not really looking for the midterm longterm I mean one year in the crypto blockchain world is like 10 years in regular industry right so you never know so it's much better for you to really if you can really be sure about the security of one system which I think is our current situation here just try to approach as many solutions that you can do right and for that just look for those tokens that that can support multi blockchain Solutions right look for cious Solutions there longterm probably open source stuff which is always kind of a way to have a community supporting this team and likey to make it happen right so my concussion will be like please don't trust one single blockchain try to look around all the ecosystem right don't build something just focusing on one single entity because today is going to be a solution tomorrow maybe not who knows right so the beauty of the game is that actually as you know by bit pandas they propos plenty of blockchains I think there's a reason behind it that being said uh okay you want to secure that's great that's nice but uh you need to never happen whatever happens to reach a level of economic sustainability you have regulation you have Tech equality so if you think that building a blockchain is easy enjoy the point of important is that Beyond being a very what can I say inspiring pass of a care here the point is that we may need some compliance and regulation on that so we have seen some weird animal we call that mikai I'm not misguided you know just like the rock except that it's a bit more right out do a bad complicate to apply that just by purchasing a rock can you explain us a bit more please yes so I think it's important to mention now the EAS regulation maybe you are not aware of this regulation but I'm pretty sure that you are using not every day but maybe almost every month a tax declaration and in the tax declaration you are signing the tax declaration using a digital certificate and maybe you are adding a digital time stamp to this tax declaration so precisly the idea regulation is regulating this so This regulation is providing a legal framework for Trust Services Trust Services are digital services that are key to to provide the the maximum legal recognitions of digital transactions in Europe um nowadays the this regulation has been amended in 2024 the previous version of the text was in 2014 and they included these TR services for example the issuance of digital certificate or the creation of digital timestamp ER just for the definition of these Trust Services in the regulation the outcomes of this Digital Services for example the certificates or the time stamp first they have the principle of not discrimination for legal effects and second the admissibility in legal procedures also this regulation is defining the process of the qualification of Trust Services this means that the European commission is defining the rules and the procedures including cyber security measures to have the maximum legal recognition and the stronger the stronger legal effect because these Services they are audited and they are implemented using the higher level security so so this is was the previous version of the text and now in the version that was amended in 2024 the European Union included electronic ledgers as a new trust service electronic ledgers are defined as a service provided by a trust service provider uh that is providing an immutable transparent and chronological set of data records where a trust service provider is guaranteeing two things the uniqueness of the sequence and second the authenticity of the origin of data so I'm saying this because thanks to the inclusions of electronic lers in the new version of the Y regulation electronic lers will have as I said the principle of non-discrimination for legal effects and second is guarantee the admissibility of the information that is store in the in the ler for legal procedures the European Commission in I think the deadlines is until May 25 is going to Def find the process to audit electronic ledgers and to have the um the certification of qualified trust service with this qualification electronic ledgers and the trust service provider that are providing these services will have the stronger legal effect and therefore the higher legal cty of information that is stor in the ler thank you very much so if I summarize it means that before this regulation if you made a transaction on any kind of blockchain okay we call that contractual aspect between two companies not not really impactful you know after this regulation it means that oh it's on the blockchain if it fits with expectation clearly described in the MAA and something called e EAS then it has value in front of a trial it really G changing because whatever you start to put on your system is worth something it's very different from oh you know it was on my database see you and as such it is really gamechanging so thank you guys for actually making such an excellent job and to ease our life without blocking us and the point here um I wish that each of you present how in your specific company how you help this So-Cal interoperability give you an example right now I work for a small company called skyre and you know Airlines have been forever been challenged to try to exchange data you have had project like Gia X amazing stuff problem is that it takes like forever and it's not anymore really European that's politics and what we try to do is to put together a thread magic one based on blockchain to connect ecosystems of data so just have a look to the website you will see it's amazing you come you click on button good for you and the second point that you connect your data you're secured we are using apolog your Fabric and ALT together it breaks data silos in each of the airline company M LSR let see you name it kind of stuff what do you do Helmut by damond okay so when I did mention up front uh that this inter inter a blockchain uh future allows project uh Builders freedom of choice where to host their project on top then uh why you need this Freedom of Choice the freedom of choice makes sense because the different layer ones have different abilities yeah and time is too short to to explain all the different abilities our blockchain would provide when it's launching end of the year uh open Alpha is already running and open open Beta is launching mid of next month so developer can ALS already try it us but uh I want to mention one for example where I get most of the positive feedback from people yeah uh and we we call this uh front running prevention yeah front running prevention um maybe people understand there is a tech Vector mostly used in in defi uh projects where your knowledge in which order transactions are processed by the network uh can give a a educated attacker some possibilities let's call it this way yeah uh and to my understanding uh it was a pretty Simple Solution we found but I didn't see it anywhere else uh our our blockchain is full evm compatible but it's combined with a uh different consensus engine which give us different abilities and one of these abilities is for example improved random numbers and we using the improved random numbers at each block we create to random shuffle the transactions how they are processed uh and so uh you have no Advantage because you know in which order actions are processed because you don't own it you don't know it yeah Simple Solutions but only existing on this blockchain and not another block we have all solutions also uh but it's the time is too short it's like Dynamic block time instant final transactions uh improved sensorship resistance as I said improved random numbers and so on and so on so I think may maybe there's somewhere a QR code or if not just visit us at the booth and find out more we have very open developments or everything going on is visible uh on GitHub uh and a long white Piper maybe if you're project Builder or you're just interested in technology or you you are a developer just curious what you can do on top of this check it out thank you a lot elmut as you can see sometimes you have real Geeks and fake Geeks we have ties you know and the point of Interest how do we do by bit Panda to actually create this interality except buying stuff that's a good point I I happy I've he open source thing here uh opening stuff is really really crucial for this team right opening your development letting people to take a look at what's going on there build your communities not only developers right something more than than that build a community of people who are really interested on the stuff you are building right so in our case pantos I invite everybody to take a look at the stuff we are doing there our repos are open you can also run our your own service notes there we have documentation for that participate on the whole ecosystem there if you a developer go for that but the something that we should really understand is that there is no Project without Community openness right and some sort of vision right it's not only about being profitable making a ton of money you know huge profits that's not the way it should really be it should be something that can stand in the long term so people can really adop and know that their projects you know the underground infrastructure the underground layers you are going to use in your projects is not something that is going to disappear in two weeks right so in this sense pantos we are happy we have bit Panda behind us really supporting us but more than that is this community of people who are really with us in this journey you know they have been with us for a while also we bring uh research as an Academia into the game right so we can put into place new technology new research ideas you know and keep growing maintaining and just moving forward you know because the solutions that are working today tomorrow you know we don't really know yeah oh trust me it's Russian fashion if it works yesterday it will work today the second point of importance is that according to you Jenna because actually your Visions is quite enlightening you say well you know it's again still about people you know it's so how do you engage your communities how do you create it how do you actually Play Your Part how do we create a a thriving Community um well we've got a great team injective Labs that has been working for years to um convey the value proposition of building on injective trading on injective and we have a quality product um talking about front running we have implemented frequent bench auctioning which market makers and Traders love because we prevent front running I come from a tra background so I understand Capital efficiency uh and that is something that blockchain is starting to wake up to or as people move from a traditional trading environment into crypto or blockchain digital asset space they appreciate injective on that front um it's been more of a Snowball Effect when you have a good product you have a great team you deliver on time and you deliver a product that people want I think the Community just kind of naturally naturally builds we've got a great group of ambassadors that help spread the word that engag people who aren't familiar with injective and through our collaborations with salana with the svm rollup with e theum we're outreaching into these other communities that aren't aware of injective Cosmos and the the speed and the low transaction cost of our Network almost sell themselves um which is a great position to be in that's amazing but to be honest with you I created my own company we created something called neurochain building a community is not easy so you can ask really I I like you lot but so Bernie how do you build your community prove us I may not be so wrong we take the approach of user empathy and what I mean by user empathy it means that we don't really care about the crypto power user too much with indora who we really care about is about the people that are looking from the outside in people that are still very curious about crypto and haven't made the jump just yet be due to qualms about security safety uh is too complex yes computers are really complex I had to learn a lot too much about computers to just work and have a company in this space um but you know not not everyone has time for that right uh we all have our own day-to-day lives things that we have to do so what we do at Dora is that we actually work really closely with the foundation teams at all of the chains that we work with at this point we're working with 20 chains uh a lot of them are evbm based we work closely with the salana foundation we work closely with upcoming teams that are still about to announce their own rollup strategy and their own proprietary interoperability Solutions we try to reunify them all aggregate it make it as simple as possible to actually have users interact with the good onchain good services in the exact same way that we don't really think about what are the inter online operability Solutions whenever you use a regular search engine like Google we very much try to get users through the line and honestly just talk to the user as well as talking to the developer to see where the developer minds are at when it comes to how their applications or their goods and services actually interoperate with all of these teams amazing just to prove you were able to create communities just there on the left there's a small booth called my popcorn my m m guas it's a proof of participation scan the code answer the questions it's going to be useful because it it will show that at this event we do stuff and your feedback is more than welcome really so first off if you want to community everything starts here and remember we are part of I believe still yet maybe not in every country but in a democracy so in the democracies we have in Europe how with your system with your approach in your position how do you help this community to thrive and not to be killed maybe as we could have seen in some Far East countries okay so we do believe that Epsy as is a solution that is supported by member State and the European commission can provide the sometimes missing trust layer for other blockchain projects so we are providing a trust model as I said a trust framework using Open Standards verifiable credentials decentralized identifiers that can be reused in other blockchain projects I can give you the example of the fcsa project which is a project of the uo the European Union intellectual property office and here our colleagues they have deployed an amazing platform to ensure the authenticity of products in Europe in the supply chain to ensure the information that is coming from the right brand owners that they own the IP rights so they are they are using epsi to provide the trust layer for verifiable information of brand owners and this they are combining this with minting nfds using other blockchain for example in polygon adding verifiable credentials that can be verified in epsy as traes or as metadata in blockchain in sorry in nfts Meed in other blockchains thank you very much some things also I need to notify a few years ago people say yeah blockchain is just a stuff of Geeks is it we see it in the airline industry Not Just Me Myself and I you can go have a look at a company called good Direct by only well you have a few Amazing Project where to die because of political reasons not because of Economics because actually you we fighting something of heavy interest please have a look to this wonderful Company's top 10 right now on the market you will see some other times you have thriving stuff like the injective labs they do their part you can also we the Deep deck you could see today with diamond or if you really want to say okay guys did a real amazing uxui experience go to bit Panda whatever happens the point is that everybody is doing his part it's not just a concept interoperability is a requirement so if we make a wrap up thanks to what we have seen today number one it seems that the evm is the go-to seems because actually most of the project right now on the market capture the heavy duty realized by the hean foundation over the past decade but it doesn't mean it does everything please have a look to the people at radex on the right they have an amazing permission mechanism you can have a look and it's not the only ones last year people told me oh you know what Cosmos is a go to market for interrup Ability is it please have a look it does work but for the hyper Fanatics and trust me I know what I'm doing maybe the centralization effect is not exactly what was asked for it works but maybe we recentralize the third point that we also have amazing projects some of the people were there last year like Paul cots are trying to do something and when I was talking with a project manager says we are going to connect them all okay enjoy else you help the teams who want to connect to you that you give them some feedback SDK training and you take way more energy to try to create an ecosystem approach and maybe less a geek approach and the point of interest is that thank you all of you for putting your interest in this topic thank you all of you to join this community and to make the difference we are not in Far East we do not want to make a Far West we want to build something better stronger and that we don't have the real word of 1984 as a wonderful book of our well coming through life so please again on the left there's a boo click and subscribe it's going to be cool thank you for joining if you have some questions is a key moment of truth if no press the button like subscribe leave a comment [Applause]