Panel | Is Freedom in the Netherlands at Risk? Do we need to move out? | Common S3nse - 2026

[music] Uh, moving on, we're going to have um, as you can see, it's quite the topic. Is freedom in the Netherlands at risk and do we need to move out? And for this panel discussion, I would like to welcome Eleanor to the stage. She's going to be taking over and you can see a whole cast of um yeah very interesting speakers that we have. I think this is going to be a cracker.

So enjoy guys.

We're going to need more microphones here. I can see they're preparing them. Ralph Decker, come on. Join me on stage. Member of Parliament Forum for Democracy is here in at Common Sense.

Please take your microphone. Of course, you will introduce yourself later. Chai, please join us on stage. founder of Monflow, my favorite libertarian, come here. And actually my second favorite libertarian, Peter Felm from the Libertarian Party, and Mick, my favorite favorite super team founder.

Thank you so much, so so much guys for jumping on for this. Let's make ourselves more comfortable. Let's have a bit more space between the chairs. Basically, we are recording for posterity a conversation I've had this year probably 20 times. But I thought everyone here comes to common sense and they they don't really know the Netherlands, right?

Like all these people, they fly from all over the world, privacy, security and defi builders. And from afar, the Netherlands look but also wonderful because they come here to Amsterdam and they think, "Oh my god, it's clean. It's wonderful. It's so pretty. But I remind them that Alexi Peritive was arrested in the Netherlands for building open source code.

The charges are for money laundering. Um, we had a few taxes situation where they wanted to tax unrealized gains. And then that's a personal one for me. Homeschooling is under threat in the Netherlands. So those are my opening remarks and I would like to allow all of my wonderful guests who took the time and who are builders and activists and politicians who are trying to make this the Netherlands a good place to introduce themselves one by one and then we can start chatting.

Ralph, go ahead.

Thank you very much. It's it's nice to be here. Um I'm Ralph Deca. I'm a member of parliament for forum for democracy. Actually I'm standing in for lead now.

So I'm chairing the the fraction of foreign democracy temporarily.

Okay.

Uh and my background is in banking. I've been a banker for 30 years. And when I was in banking, I was the frontr runner in technology. Actually, that's the nice part of the Netherlands. Uh we are front runners in everything, the good and the bad as you [laughter]

Yeah. And I introduced Rabo Bank on the internet as the very first internet bank which was a leading edge exercise at the time. There were six internet sites in the Netherlands and one of them was rabbank.nl. So that's was amazing.

So I've [snorts] been at the very very uh birth of that whole technology and when I left the bank um I tried to implement some of the the crypto technology in uh in using trade finance. So, I've been in technology a long time, but I I recognize that now I'm I'm well behind 10 years after my career. So, I'm learning here. And uh I'll give you some old-fashioned wisdoms.

Thank you, Shai.

Yeah, my name Yeah, thank you. My name is Shai Lin. I'm the founder of Monflow. Uh most people know Monflow as a crypto bank, but obviously we are not a bank, but we have a micro license. It's a European license.

On one hand, I know that in this world where we are right now, we really dislike Mica, we dislike the regulations. Our strategy is to follow the regulations, be fully compliant, but as minimalistic as possible and have data minimalization because at heart, I'm a cyber punk. I want to build technologies that can maximize privacy, but we need to take the long road. We need to take a longer strategy. I'm also a very good friend of Ralph.

It's

past tense. [laughter]

No, I'm still a very good friend of Ralph. Um, I have a background in economics and philosophy. I studied under uh George Casey. Maybe some of you know he was a libertarian anarchist professor, taught philosophy at the University of uh University College Dublin. He was the only reason for me to go there and then he sent me to the MS Institute in the United States.

I I I so inspired by the Robarians I met there. I started off as a a minimalist but the more I got into libertarianism the more I became an anarchist. So I started off like an Hayakian but it ended up being a Rbarian. That's shortly who I am.

Thank you. Thank you. Chai Peter.

Thank you for inviting me Elanor.

My name is Peter Vonelm. Uh, I am the front runner of the Libertarian Party in Amsterdam. I was also electable for the Libertarian Party in Nationwide. Um, I actually am just a graffiti guy and an advertising guy who got [ __ ] over by the government and I'm angry. I am done.

Um, I got into crypto with uh, Bcoin. Uh years ago uh at Blex my friend uh good friend Herman Visia had the idea also to make uh ATMs for crypto where you can buy crypto with cash and I paid for the very first one and they're in my shops. I have a graffiti and tattoo shops. Um I just closed six of them. I still have three left and this is all because of COVID uh loans and stuff.

This also got me into the Libertarian Party and uh well I'm a I'm an anarchist as well. So, uh,

welcome in short,

welcome and thank you for, uh, taking the leap. There was a signal to a conversation was like, "Are you sure you want me there?" I was like, "Yes, yes, I want you here. I want you with us." Mick.

Uh, hello everyone. My name is Mick, uh, founder and lead of Supermanl, which is the Salana community in the Netherlands. Um, first of all, I also want to say I think I don't know about what you all think, but I think Elanor has done such an amazing job at this conference. I just want to give one round of applause. and also very happy to be on this panel with these wonderful people.

Um I think I would like to say that you know I'm mainly Solana focused which is not part of the original cipher punk uh the older generation of crypto necessarily. Uh but also through Edenor I've realized how important these values are. Uh so I'm very grateful for that and also leading this community in Amsterdam and the Netherlands as a whole. Uh I think it's very important to make the Netherlands a very attractive place for people to stay right especially in this age of digitalization of new opportunities of digital nomads. Uh I would love for more talented people to stay here and I think uh you know having a more free society is a way to do so.

Thank you.

So are we still in a free country? That's the big question. Is this place still a place for people to build, live, [snorts] and be free?

If you are uh like backwards, then you think you're in a free country.

Are there still are there still any free countries, at least in the West? I think it's roughly the same all over the EU and even outside of the EU. The the unfreedom is is growing. Um, but my my key point always in the Netherlands is we are truly a frontr runner for the good and the bad. We used to be your front runner for the good.

Now we tend to become more and more a front runner of the bad. But the nice thing is the Netherlands is still relatively small. So you can you can turn it around if you really want to. Uh, and I think that's what we should strive for because once we change course, you'll see that an awful lot of countries will follow. And that's that's my hope.

That's why I'm working.

Appreciate that. Chai, is there still hope?

Um, there is hope, but the hope that I put in is not politics anymore. Sorry, R. I don't I don't think the politics will get us there, but will get us there is technology. We can build technologies that are inherently freedom promoting that is unstoppable. On the other hand, I would also like to say that freedom is very relative.

I know people from China, from Hong Kong, Macau who are coming to the net and say, "Wow, so there's so much freedom here. I can say whatever I want." So this is also something that we should not forget that uh there are certain things that we can still have that they don't have in other countries. On the other hand, it's only more important for us to to fight and preserve what is most dear to us.

Peter, can we if you cross the line, you get you be missing here in the Netherlands. So I don't know about that but we the problem in the Netherlands is and I think worldwide is that we still believe in the left wing and the right wing. I'm very certain also Rolof um what we have in Holland and also a lot in other countries in Europe is corporatism which means that the government is in bed with the biggest companies and those are the companies that's that are making it and everybody see doesn't don't see it because the left says yeah but it's the right and the right says it's the left it's something very vile in between you know so and you need to be in bed with the government and government politicians are not going to change anything even also the Libertarian party we are going to be there to cut people out to to let them lose their jobs. I think this is the only way we need to like like you say we have a lot of technology that can work very fast very good and for all of us. Can I give a very interesting example what I noticed since I'm running Monflow and since we had the license is that at the start of the let's say 10 years ago if I was talking to people from the Dutch crypto space the people from Bitfo and so forth most of them were really freedom promoting was they were saying yeah we we are here to create freedom money to promote freedom money we want people to have more access to to crypto but over the past year that I got into contact with also the regulators, I noticed that a lot of these companies right now are trying to be in bet with the regulators.

It's really awful to see something that I had in mind how it could work in the banking system is banks get together with the regulators trying to keep new entrance out, try to increase the barrier of entry. This is exactly what I'm seeing in the Netherlands right now. I saw companies asking the AFM, the DOS regulator, when are you going to spend more time on us than spending time on people who are still applying for a license? It is awful to see that even people who are freedom loving at first are now choosing the way of money and choosing on freedom because it helps the company.

I really want to say something, but he also has to introduce himself. No,

no, but so what do you think from your perspective here? You've heard these.

Yeah. Yeah. Also very interesting perspective.

Yeah. Do we have hope with through the politics or do we drop it and is it all through technology like

I think I agree with Chai. I think there is a solution in technology. Uh it's a double-edged sword as well, right? Because you know throughout history just in advancement of technology that also means that a government can exercise more power. um also with you know the AI or with facial ne recognition stuff like this um but as I also would like to note that freedom doesn't necessarily have to be physical freedom it doesn't necessarily have to be uh freedom of speech I think also uh you know lower taxes can also be a form of freedom right uh I have some friends that you know very crypto but they moved to Dubai uh and where you relatively have very little freedom of speech you can't criticize to the government yet they do feel more free than they do here in the Netherlands.

Uh so that is also an interesting note I think.

Perhaps to add to the the politics thing, I don't believe politics is going to change things either.

Well, that's that gives us all hope for

as a as a politician that's that's perhaps a remarkable [laughter] remarkable thing. But I think you need to be in politics in order to be visible, in order to understand the system, in order to influence others and use that as a platform to build like-minded communities. That's what we're what we're trying to do. Setting up businesses, uh, playing a role here, playing a role in all sorts of things and bringing people together who are like-minded. And then the the politics is just one little branch basically of the whole movement.

And only then when you when you bring people together, when you create communities that think likewise and that are also in their small environment trying to change things, I think that's the only way forward.

Yeah. So different ways basically all of us through our work we're trying to influence the world in a way. Um but when we go back to politics or not politics but we think we have the technology we already have it right we all we have ZK we have a bunch of stuff we can do privacy right now fully we have we're working on security um but we have red tape we have red tape that limits innovation that puts developers in jail that creates uncertainty that creates a chilling effect And that's the problem. We have the tech like we have it. We have it but basically it's not enough.

Mika for those who get in good and for those who are too late or who don't have the right networks well too bad. And then all the we were Ruben just earlier from was discussing it. We actually are in a in a in a dire moment in Europe where we are losing innovation. We are losing projects and we are not competitive and the Netherlands is stuck. You said earlier like there's no freedom in the west.

Do we have to leave the EU?

Well, the Netherlands certainly has to leave the EU as far as I'm concerned and then again being a frontr runner for others to follow and I think perhaps Germany would follow and then the whole EU would crumble.

So crumb. So we crumble and then we sort of a phoenix moment. we all like go to [ __ ] and then we uh is there

well sometimes sometimes I think it's the it's the only solution because changing uh this bam moth which is the EU and the Netherlands and all the red tape uh changing that from within is almost impossible you need to be there you need to understand how it works but it's it's almost inconceivable that you could change it slowly but surely from inside

we do MLE approach.

Yeah.

Which is

I'm all for

chainsaw.

No, dar we say in Dutch. No, no, but uh everybody um from my my advertising career, I had a had a long time in advertising. I actually launched Green Peas in the Netherlands. I launched Friends of the Earth. I made them big.

I'm sorry for that. Um I did uh Bakadir the And I did that.

So you repent now.

Yeah. Absolutely. No, no, but I I I did that because everybody is for a good environment. But I what I didn't realize that these companies are getting hacked by the the politicians and used as a political movement and that is what I'm against. Everybody is for a nice green outside, you know, like living in the forest.

But as we we're humans, you know, the only thing that we want to do is eat [ __ ] uh have parties, uh use drugs, make kids. Um and we all focus on what we do. And the the the majority of people here, we focus on crypto, on building bridges and stuff. And politicians, they focus on regulations. So if you have a a job description, come and work at the government and be a regulator.

This means going to be people thinking of more regulations, you know, and this is [ __ ] And this is their this is their life. They go there and they they go home and and they work for eight years or 10 years and they did one rule. And when they're old, they say, you know, when you walk in the street, you cannot walk there because I made that rule. And and this is not different than the people here, you know, like people everybody's focused on a little part be a defi or anything. And if we understand how people work, we can get a lot further.

Uh and breaking down uh bastions like the government is something is desperately needed. And and the Netherlands is big in finance. This is why the Netherlands is big. you know, we we started the first uh banking, the the first uh stocks, they're all from here.

Um I also used to work as a marketing manager for iconic on the stock market. So uh I was the fifth or the fourth employee. I made them big.

I got a lot of [ __ ] from there. But we forget about what it is to be human. And especially people in the government, they don't think about it. They just think I have this good job and they send me home. I have enough money.

They don't care about uh the other people. We should be shaming them and shaming group pressure is the best thing that works and that leads to Milai because that is what they did in Milai was actually called uh the local phenomenon

you know they didn't to take him seriously and now he introduces himself. Hi I'm the local phenomenon. So

we should do that. Absolutely.

No it's um I just feel I'm at a loss for me as a as an expat. This is my perspective, right? As an expat who's enjoyed 10 years here, I discovered crypto here, but I also discovered that you do normal and you [snorts] do normal for everyone here who doesn't know. It's like you you don't stick your head out too much, right? You do normal, but you get but you make money.

Those are the two and we were talking about it last night. I was like, "Oh, that's exactly the Netherlands. Do normal, but also be successful." And that's hard. And that's hard.

And I don't see how we can remain competitive. like how how do we have, you know, sex, drugs, and rock and roll in Amsterdam, but also it's not really for the Duchies. You know what I mean? Like that's sort of the PR touristicy thing, but deep down we don't embrace that. We don't embrace that absolute freedom.

Or maybe I'm wrong.

Well, that's that's one of the one of the criticisms I have um let's say to this whole community here. Many people in in this field try to be hugely successful and then make an awful lot of money and some are successful and do make an awful lot of money but then they go out to Dubai, they go out to wherever and they don't come back to the Netherlands. And what I would like to see is that the ultimate aim would be to make the Netherlands better. In the past, this was a normal thing. When you had big industrialists, they built entire quarters of cities, right?

uh they build parks, they build museums, that sort of thing. Uh and I hardly see that now as an ambition and I think you that in the long run then you can influence your country as well.

Okay. Thinking right now about the big crypto canal campers. Um so what so I wanted to just uh before I forget we we do have Slido. Um so if you have questions for our panelists it's Slido code 2626. I I'll be looking at my phone.

So, making sure that you guys also have a chance to to ask questions. But, so where do we go from now?

Um, also just just a note about this with wealth because I know we had this conversation as well. I think the problem is is that the Netherlands and the EU as a whole is we've become less successful, but we still have the attitude from before, right? Um and I think for some reason we've now become wary of taking risk or being experimental. These things that do lead to new things, new innovation, um being competitive and I think I think a very good example especially the divide that we've created with between you know the government and and and the rest of the of of the country. Uh the government now being the biggest employer in in the Netherlands.

Isn't that a horrible thing to say?

It's insane. Uh so in my opinion we need less government right but also just in general in taking risk when when I tell my friends that you know I'm I'm trying something I'm trying to be an entrepreneur I'm trying to found something uh I I would say in general this is looked down upon right and it's the same thing where you say you know

look down

yeah looked down upon yeah like

entrepreneurship is looked down

yes I think so yeah like taking risk you know like I think at least in my circles nowadays it's better to take the government trainineehip Um, and that's probably rooted in some kind of like, you know, protest Pro Protestantism or

is it back to the do normal like

I think Yeah. Yeah. Like being normal is already crazy enough.

This is what this is what they want,

you know. Um, the the war in in Yugoslavia started with a football match and now everybody in a football is being criminalized. You can't go to a football match without your picture being taken, without your name being registered and everything they see as a threat. You have to be do. And uh like you said, the regulator is in everything and they want to be in bed with the regulator.

They should stop this. I mean, Herman Fisia did the the crypto uh ATM and he was in every uh law suit against him. He sold the company and right now there's somebody that doesn't stand up. So all the ATMs are down and we need people to stand up, not to be uh afraid of the government. Yeah, they're going to [ __ ] you, but if everybody else does it, then they're going to be awfully busy with regulating everybody.

We should stand up. Everybody should It should be hip to be against it, you know, like like we like it's hip to have a good environment and like it's hip to use less energy. This is important for everybody.

But the trust is broken,

right?

In in not in the people, in the government. Yes.

Yeah. In the government like here was like Yeah. We here you're you're talking to a crowd of actually not money go up although woohoo but like no you're talking to a crowd here of actually very idealistically driven people who care about really important values censorship resistance of privacy of self-custody of you know you know the the Wi-Fi password literally and I yes I had way too much fun with it is taxation is theft and fiat is a scam And and the thing is we Why would we stay here?

Why would we stay here?

Fight. Come on.

I mean, I'm here. I'm doing it. I'm

No, no. The thing is

keeping now, but I keep having this conversation.

I It's not just me. As I keep having this conversation in the last year, ever since the 36% craziness, where do we go? And of course, I don't want to go. I love Amsterdam. I like very um I love my little corner of the world, but I don't want to go.

But the whole world is looking at me like, "What are you doing here? Why don't you come and live in Miami, St. Petersburg, Florida? No taxes. It's [ __ ] great.

We have sun." I'm like, "No, I like the rain." Okay. But it can't this is not going to keep me here.

Um I would like to add a different definition to freedom which is in the Hegelian definition. It's uh so Hegel says that the freedom is feeling at home in the world. So for me, I don't care about the Netherlands. I don't care about any country. I just want to be in the place where I feel at home.

That's where I want to be. And even though even though I hate so many aspects of the Netherlands, this is still the place where I feel most at home. Every time when I come back from holidays and I'm driving and seeing this beautiful architecture, driving came through like, "Wow, it's so beautiful. It really is a place where I feel home and that's why I've decided

they're not building that anymore. So everything has to be cheaper.

But we could we could

and that that's the whole thing. Amsterdam has been built by people exactly like us and they had to fight all sorts of environments as well in a different time clearly. Um, but I think there's there's too much the atmosphere of giving up and as I said in the beginning, Amsterdam and the Netherlands are truly front runners and we can change the direction of this front running. I think that is key and then we can we can basically change the world.

Okay. Can we start with Alexi? Can we like if I can signal to the world that Alexi Perzv can we remove that [ __ ] fiveyear can we can we win that appeal so that he doesn't spend the next five years in prison because that's what's at risk. If that passes I'm [ __ ] out. I'm out and I will make noise about it.

I'll be like this is a dystopian hell hole. This is it. Arresting him was already really a bad red flag for me. But we need to we need to do something in this panel here. We're we're pretty much aligned.

I realize I did create a panel of like we all like we like each other, but can we can we unite? Can we make something? Can we make a stand? It's been really difficult. It's been really difficult.

There's very few people that want to hear this that care about this case that even think that it's relevant. He's Russian. Lazarus group use tornado cash. Okay. But can we make a stance?

Can we make sure that actually we can stand up for for code as free speech for for innovation and see him more like right now I see him as a martyr of this of this community and I don't want that. That's my only thing. I'll make it I'll make it with your help.

I'll stand by you.

Thank you.

Talk about it. when when I uh came to the Libertarian Party uh I was Tom Volamoon asked me to to join I was like okay man if you asked me two years ago I was in politics I would laugh at you like I'm still laughing at it but um I jumped in and I jumped into the groups you know we have various uh groups on signal and so so forth and what I noticed is a little bit is also the same in the crypto community we love to talk to each other

we should talk to everybody next to you. Like um I have a tattoo shop still a few and I talk with everybody in my chair and what I find right now is that people come to me because they read my my my articles. I they see my appearances and they come to me because they want a tattoo and they want to have a good talk about politics and [ __ ]

right?

You know, and I I talk with everybody

the moment the moment the sentence is appealed, I'll get a tattoo. I'll get the tornado cash I'll get the tornado cash logo right here. I I'm just saying I'm I'm talking about experience. When I started Greenpeace, when I started working for Greenpeace, everybody said, "Ah, nobody is interested in [ __ ] uh this [ __ ] you know, like they've got the environment." And then I was at a a meeting and uh somebody from the the press came to me, "Yeah, you're making the environment hip.

Congratulations." Like never realized. Same thing with Vakadir. You know, the vakadier for is for industrial chicken for everybody that doesn't know Wakadir. He was like, "Why the [ __ ] would you want to work for that?"

So, why not? You know like I thought at that moment it was a good thing and I know that that if we talk with enough people yes of course it's nice when you have a budget like forum for democracy you can do stuff but the most important thing is talk with each other and not go don't go have those difficult talk don't go talking to the people that have the same ideas as you go there and talk with the people that have different ideas than you and have that clash and those are the interesting things and other people will see that and and that is that is the thing with uh being successful. It's a movement. It's a feeling. And what we are in is this feeling.

Uh just one thing. Do you know how the the golden age came to uh how the Netherlands had the golden age?

The first?

No, after that before that, sorry.

I'm not sure.

There there's only one reason why the Netherlands uh had a golden age. the guy that invented the the windmill. Um there was another guy and they said, "Oh, but I can saw with that." But the guy that invented the windmill didn't want it. And he he he spent 15 years blocking that because he had a patent on it.

And when he couldn't hold it anymore,

we could build chips much faster than the rest of the world. This is the only reason why if another country

one guy, right,

if another country if another country

patent my ruin me

if another country would do it and and crypto is also a technology. I'm just saying we are here. We are the people. We can change the world. We need to do that.

But have it in mind. Keep it in mind.

Thank you.

This this touch is on something else that I see in the Netherlands as well. A very dangerous trend which is uh uh the fact that we are unable to talk to people with different opinions. We need to accept the fact that when you live in society there are plural values. You have different values. Even though we are libertarian, I'm sure that are that we still have different values, right?

But we still talk to each other. We need to be able to talk to anyone. This is also something that I dislike among some of the people in the crypto space who are too maximalistic, who are like, "Oh, you don't use Bitcoin. You're you're a [ __ ] coiner.

We're all [ __ ] coiners for sure.

This is not the way you need to communicate with someone if you want to convince them to start adopting privacy technologies or freedom promoting technologies, right? So this is also something from our side in our industry that we need to that we need to take le to our heart to be able to be open and accept people who at first are against us and it is also true the crypto space is full with a lot of scams. So I understand why a lot of people are also afraid of uh people who talk about crypto. Well

that's fair.

You should go into politics there. [laughter]

You don't live there party. All right, gentlemen. I think we're arriving to our almost at the end. Would you like to share what are your hopes for the Netherlands? Is there I mean we're we're circling back, but if you had what something that inspires you today in the Netherlands and something that we should be absolutely horrified at the same time.

Well, yeah, at the risk of repeating myself, the Netherlands was the true front runner when internet came came about and Amsterdam is still the center of of the digital uh communication. Um, and I think that typifies the Netherlands. Uh, we want to be front runners, we want to be hip, we want to be up to-date. uh and I think we can we can use that tendency to turn it in the right direction. Um and I think that is crucial and that is also hopeful because uh it is relatively easy to change direction in the Netherlands.

Um it's a small country. Uh it's not difficult to in one go get all the attention and we did that as a forum for democracy a number of years ago. You see that come back all the time. Um now we set up a school for instance uh and that's a typical long-term thing because in the long term I think you need to build people who are independent thinkers rather than followers.

I'm going the homeschooling route but I do like the Renaissance school. It's kind of cool.

Right. Right. But but that's that's one of the things you can do an awful lot of things and then in in the Netherlands it suddenly flips. That's that's the the typical Dutch phenomenon. And once it flips you can you can do great things.

So that's my my hope for the future.

Thank you, Chai.

I'm very inspired by local communities that uh local communities are coming together and not necessarily cryptofocused, but local communities coming together um helping out each other, sharing uh or um sourcing food in from local communities. Um and what I noticed among them is that most of these people that are part of these strong local communities, they don't want more aggression or more interference from the state. So this is this is a group that is not necessarily cryptofocused but are very easy to to to take in because value wise we're already quite close to them. So right now I've been uh connecting with a lot of uh local communities and it's such a joy to be among them. It's much more inspiring to build things together than continuously trying to break down things or continuously trying to best things.

Right? I I used to fly for the Libertarian Party more than 10 years ago. It was fun for 10 days. Everyone who came to me asked what is Libertarian Party? It's so difficult to convince people in a political way.

But if but I'm sure among all all of those people that I was talking to while flying we share this the same value that we want to have a better world for a better environment better rights for animals right so we need to find out that common ground and when I'm talking to those local communities when I feel that we have this common ground it is so inspiring and fun to uh to help them as well

nice Peter

yeah um I I I do did it for my kids. Um, I come from a very uh entrepreneurial uh background. My my my grandfather was already a baker. My father was a baker and uh I did a lot of things. I already had a lot of companies in the Netherlands and we cannot have companies anymore.

Like the government sees us are pinpos we are their their source of money.

The cash cow.

Yeah, we are the cash cow. You know like uh I used to have like 50 people in service and I I can't anymore. Like I closed my shops in Amsterdam. Not all of them, but uh with pain in my heart, you know, like I want my kids to be able to grow up and have the same freedoms that I did when I as a kid. I mean, I was 13, 14, I went to Pradam.

I come from Rotodom. Uh I don't see kids doing that because there's cameras everywhere, you know, like uh the freedom is not under pressure. It's already like halfway gone. So, we need to stand up and we need to voice ourselves.

Thank you.

Um good question, by the way. Uh, no, I think I think like in the end I think I'm very proud to be Dutch and I think I'm even proud to be European. I think there's a lot of talent especially in this little country. Uh, everything that we're doing that we've done has been, you know, way above our weight as a small country. There's so much talent, there's so much knowledge, capital, knowhow.

Um, and I think it would be a waste if we didn't try to save that. Right. So, it's important to empower local communities as you said. It's important to empower the individual creativity, experimentation uh to try and get out of this. Unfortunately, how I see it somewhat of a death spiral at the moment.

Uh but I do think that we can turn this around.

Sorry, I got distracted because I saw one question. It's like nice talk, but talk is cheap. How many of you in stage can commit to either become active in politics or donate to a crypto political party? I'm not sure.

Is there a crypto political party?

There isn't. Not that I can think of. Okay. Does that is this a call for me to become No. [laughter] [gasps]

No question. Let's do that. the question for being uh uh for crypto because the libertarian party is 100% pro bitcoin

and in my opinion like if war breaks out you can sh you can trade with drugs with whiskey with you know with crypto and it doesn't matter if you have other people that believe in that then you can trade with it then it's worth money

yeah it's true that the lian libertan party is uh is open for crypto but what I don't like about the liberant libertan party to be honest so many bitcoin maximalists.

No. [laughter]

Yeah, I understand. But I I I know that the people with the biggest mouth are Bitcoin maximalist. I actually thought, you know, Boris from uh

I the first talk I had with Boris like I was talking about other coins with him. He's like, "Oh, not so much about Bitcoin. I don't want to talk with you." I'm like, "Okay, man. It's all right."

And my point is if it's about it's if you're if we're in war if we're going down the death spiral like you say like I can pay other people with whiskey and if I meet you I can I can have my chain links and get we share

it's really hard to move around bottles of whiskey FYI gets

same thing same thing if you think it's worth money then you can do with it

it's liquid at least

it's liquid

all right

sorry can I say say one thing but I think it's really unfair to say the talk is cheap blah blah I know Ralph Ralph is really fighting for more freedom in the Netherlands Ralph is building that school he says Elon parallel societies parallel companies that's building right now next to politics I think I think he he deserves praise for this the party is doing very I don't know very much about the super team to be honest

that's fine

and uh on my side well building Monflow I want to on board as many people as possible to DI and then keep them in defi allow them to start using more privacy preserving technologies. I'm full an anonymity. So, it's fairly unfair to say this about the panelist here.

Wait, wait, sorry. There's not a politician going to solve anybody's problems. The only politics that we need is the politics to cut down on politics and then crypto can flourish. I agree.

That's nice. Thank you. I think uh I any questions from the audience? I'll take some live ones. some live ones.

And that's a wrap. Thank you so much. Thank you so so much.

Thank you.