15. Incentivizing Public Goods - Taipei 2023

[Music] thank you very much I wanted to like transition over uh as well but um this works wonderful uh thank you both for being here shaie and Frank um and I think like I have talked for the last 20 minutes already about like the hypothet project in general um and that's why I'm excited about now talking about gain forest and fap and like what your thoughts about about hypers certs U but before we go into that connection um maybe sha weart with you can you tell us a little bit about like the project of gain forest in in general so that we understand the context for this uh hello everybody my name is Shari uh and I'm one of the co-founders of gain Forest so gain Forest is actually a swiss-based nonprofit organization and our mission is to stop Global deforestation um and so one of the challenges that we're most concerned with is how do we coordinate efforts um from all over the world in order to reward environmentally positive actions um and so this could be in a number of different ways whether it is U by conservation work by actually protecting and stopping um forests from being cut down or it's also by planting and reforestation so there's a lot of different um climate positive actions that um require people from all over the world to uh work on it's not you know a a specific problem that only I can work on um in Switzerland where the nonprofit is actually um located but it requires efforts from people in Brazil in Taiwan in Africa in Southeast Asia uh where we have a lot of very uh important biodiversity hotspots and a lot of very uh important forests to preserve um so Forest are very important also because it is one of the main drivers of climate change nice can you so you mentioned the word coordination and like there are so many players involved um how do you actually work like how do you organize this like these multiple stakeholder so what is the coordination part um for gain Forest so we have a core team and then we also have a sort of decentralized um part of this as well the core team's goal is to figure out the mission and the direction of where gain Forest is uh headed and what our main priorities are and as far as the uh decentralized aspects where maybe hyps is more relevant uh is we work very closely with the communities on the ground uh nonprofit organizations uh so um these nonprofit organizations they may they they're the people that actually um are more connected with their very immediate surroundings so the communities on on you know for example in the Philippines they know what is most important um and so we Empower them and we work with so many different communities on the ground um and we try to figure out you know what are the what are their main challenges how do we help them do the conservation and uh environment Protection work that they need to do um yeah yeah nice yeah and I think this is also like the reason why I'm like such a big fan of gain Forest because um you really take to hard like the lessons that we learned from Elan austrom like how do we build up bottom up and how do we take into account the really like the community aspect of this but then you don't stop there but you also combine it with like technology like satellite imagery and drones Etc so I think this is like such a cool project that combines these things um so really cool Frank um can you tell us a little bit about fbow uh what do you guys do okay sure so hi everyone I'm Frank I'm a contributor in fapd and fbal have uh two stages the first stage is is uh nft project which is uh we we invited six Taiwanese generative artists who uh had a project called project present and he it use uh code to illustrate the beauty of Taiwanese mountain and it is a really great NFD project which had uh found some money and to support the phase two the phase two is to let fat Dow become a decentralized organization to become fully a dow and the fund was supported for to the contribut contributor of the progressive decentralization process so I am the contribution during this process and I was uh coordinated in a one of the special working group we call ourself hypers Ser Labs because we want to use hypers as a not only as a record but also a tool to facilitate uh the coordination while all of different uh contributor different members how do we collaborate more to help the decentralized uh more reasonable or more uh we more trust we can build in this and in this time just for the uh can we actually get another microphone I rate this as out of battery um cool um so you mentioned already the hyperset lab that uh you're running this is that correct like you're you're one of the contributors cool um can you tell us a little bit more um how you see the role of hypers certs in like for this coordination um that you mentioned like why is is hypers certs an interesting concept for you thank you U Al Hokah and had already told about the big picture of hypers and I think for us we mainly focus on the contribution part because the pre-distribution discussion is really important for us because we want to make sure that everybody who engage their free time in fabal to get uh not only get pay or get recognized their credit by the fraction of the hypers the the one feature of hypers and that's I think that's a great part of the ERC 1155 and while we discussing how to distribute we're also knowing each other contribut spe specifically because in the um digital or even in Dow not everyone know what everyone was doing especially we have different working groups we have different people participate in different way they might read only read the Discord message or they might actively participate in every online session so how do we uh use a another top down way or from a button up everyone can show their uh contribution in a more objectively way I think hypers or maybe there are some other web tool can facilitate I think this is the need for doubt when we try to decentralize uh in a good way in in not a centralized governance way nice yeah I think that's like so cool and I think potentially this like one of the hardest parts of like how do you actually do the contribution accounting um and in general and then how to use hyps for this um and we will return to that when we talk about like the challenges um about hyps when we actually Implement them um but how do you guys at gain Forest think about hyps and integrating hypers or like why why is this like something that fits to what you do at gain Forest so I think the most important thing why we use hyps is we need to be able to measure the environmentally positive actions that people doing on the ground and these are very different kinds of actions so you know it could be planting a tree or it could be uh tree restoration or uh Forest protection as I was uh mentioning um and so we need to find some way to I guess gain Force biggest mission is how do we allocate the right kind of funding to the right kind of projects so if a project so instead of somebody's cutting down a rainforest and maybe using this to create a farm um how do we actually give people the financial tools also reward them for these actions so accounting for these actions are very important um because once you have these transparent measures of work at a specific amount of time you can really um you know fund you can you can see that this community or this project is doing a lot of good work so let's fund them because they're doing something that's actually measurable um so I think that's yeah yeah so probably like not like news for like anyone like in the audience here but like there might be also people who are not as familiar with uh repb 3 technology um like what would you actually say like why do you need like web 3 technology to do that um couldn't you like create that transparency and that database basically without web3 technology as well actually I think we can um and we don't really need to explain to the communities on the ground that they're using web 3 technology I actually think that hypers search is a it's a concept that can be abstracted away they can still be able to say oh you know you've done this work this is kind of you know your certificate for your work that you've done um and maybe they can you know we can reward them in the form of you know a sticker or like a small like physical certificate and if they're not as web three literate they don't necessarily need to um know that is a hypers but if they are interested and a lot of uh projects are actually interested in the web 3 aspect so you know some are a little bit more web two and some a little bit more web three three so for the people who are interested um we can actually give them these hypers certs you know in their wallets um or you can even for example create some form of like Shadow profiles uh based on you know their uh their phone number or some form of identity and then when they ask for it we could always give it to them um but the important part is the accounting and the database part you know you need to be able to uh reward people for the work that theyve and and give people credit where credits do yeah fully agree and then I think the the interesting thing is also if we want to combine that um for example with additional evaluators um with additional funding platforms when we want to expand this um from like gain Force to other things then we also create kind of a data standard that it's easier to plug in and we have like a decentralized database um where it is not like governed just like by one organization because ultimately we don't don't want to have just like one Amazon of hypers for example for an Amazon for impact but we actually want to have that multiple platforms can be engaged with that as well um cool um so we we talked a little bit about like your projects and the role of hyperset in your projects um what are the the the challenges um that you face um and here I think it's really interesting um because we like from what we heard that is like you really work on the two different elements uh of hypers like the contribution accounting side and then the evaluation side so it's really interesting to to have you both on here um so what what are for you kind of the biggest challenges of like implementing this and using this um I don't know if you want to go first okay I can go first I think the biggest challenge is also echoing the last questions because like why do we need to use a web 3 tool to achieve maybe you don't need web3 hypers at all if you can use the Google spreadsheet or even a paper to uh record what your contribution but then this is the questions I face while we discuss a lot and while after reading the white paper we saw the whole structure or whole architecture or whole vision of hypers I would say that it is a kind of like a universal format for contribution and for the evaluation and for the future ecosystem and we try to build a uh e system from the bottom layer and the challenge part is how do we explain this Vision or how do we truly let the the one really understand the importance of interoperability or the the upgradability of this web3 tool and the transparency that web three have already uh as a great tool to manifest that and the first thing is to I would not say education but I would like say invite them to understand more about the underlying uh characteristic of what hypers really is about and after knowing this we can discuss a lot of how do we truly want to uh distribute you you can distribute equally but is that a truly good way maybe we can try another so this is the experiment part of contribution because we can try to uh use different distribution methods you can buy algorithm you can buy uh people uh giving uh giving feedback from each other or you can buy ranking the importance of the uh the priority things you have done so I think this little experiment is a really great hook for at least in fbal to inviting people to to use hypers cert but it's also a challenge because not everyone want to use like why should I experiment I I still I I want something it can be done to solve my questions but hypers cannot one fit all questions at all I I think for me for me personally I think hypers is a great tool to facilitate the discussion what we didn't think about it can be different so this is also a challenge but it is although a hook for me yeah no I like that like also like the the two things like explaining why we should use web3 technology for that and it really is something where we need to lead kind of the vision of it that how the vision really is like to create this interoperability between like different things because like if you would just do that in one case you shouldn't just like build like the most complex like web 3 blockchain system for one use case but if you really think about the system in itself then the web through technology like really makes sense and then the second part that you said about like how do we actually do the contribution accounting there I think hypers certs like brings kind of this really difficult discussion and conversation to to the front so that we can have that discussion but it's a really difficult one um to do so what what are the challenges uh for for gain force and the evaluation side yeah um I think maybe just to add a little bit to that one of the great things about hyperset why we should use it is that once you have the centralized database you can actually start having for example an evaluation Marketplace so uh as hok was mentioning in his talk earlier you can really have different evaluators say oh is this project really and you have all of the data you have all of the work and they can make their own conclusions as to whether so it's a standard whether something is has actually delivered impact or not um and also it also gives way to different funding mechanisms there's lot you know qu um qualitative fund um sorry quadratic funding quadratic funding um in the web 3 space or retroactive funding um these are all like different funding mechanisms that can be plugged into different impact evaluators and hypers certs um as far as the challenges I think that hypers certs work really well with um digital Public Funding um uh public goods funding um just because all of the data is already online so for example with uh open source software uh you can check for example how much how what are the dependencies do people actually use this uh project but in in gain Forest because a lot of the work is done kind of offline in places where there're not there's not a lot of internet it just requires um the little bit more extra thought of you know recording and making sure that the data that's being recorded that people are doing the work is clean yeah nice um I'm failing on one uh task here I don't actually know how much time we have left we can okay Noah also doesn't know okay cool cool um cool we have like talked about uh um kind of the the the challenges that we have and I think um the challenges with the um like the the advantage of having multiple evaluators um but then also the challenges with like bringing better data like real world data online to have like actually the the impact measurement this is also something where where I'm like most excited about because this is what will change in the like near future that we have like so much more things also for real world assets on chain so that we can actually make those um measurements and then add to some extent kind of this subjective discussion on like what do we actually value uh because I think that's something that I want to highlight that the measurements are like one aspect of this but we need to have this discussion about like what do we value together so there's always like a subjective aspect to this as well and like we need to have tools to combine combine those two um so I think this is something that I I want to highlight as well um so maybe um to like close this with like is there something else that you want to point out um and then um the question what are you really the most excited about um that's coming up either for either your projects or that you see in the sector as a whole okay um I'm really excited about what hokas previous talk about the 202 24s in hypers I think the use case has become uh become much more and the user experience while M hypers had improved and I think this is a great a great step to start and for me I think I would like to uh invite people to to to join fabal to Jo to use hypers because for for us this is still a great starting point to to to formulate uh uh your your organization or your new group to to discuss how to measure uh contribution more equally or more actively and I think that's the really good process to recognize your own uh contribution and and recognize others contribution and I think that's the great uh first step to build trust because hypur might not really solve the trust problem and it is not the the the way it was meant to be but it can be a great great tool to facilitate the trust building process and after the trust building I think the coordination will become much smoother and the future discussion about how to distribution will will hence become much smoother too so invite everyone who is willing to experiment with us and with hula and with Shi I'm excited about the possibilities that hypers sits can do with mass coordination and also just intens izing people to just do more good in the world um things that may not be financially wed um but like right now you know and to be able to be able to um fund these mechanisms and to also just encourage more people to do work towards climate I I think I see a lot of people uh who see that we are currently in this climate crisis and feel like you know they're a little bit disempowered how do I actually do something good but little actions um can amount to something big and I think hypers certs is a tool that allows people to do these maybe little actions whether it's an hour of their time if they have or a week of their time and on the grand scale you can visualize this and you can really see like okay this looks like a very big problem but a lot of people and you can see it in maybe like you know whatever the hypers marketplace or in the hyper boards these are all the people that are working towards this I can also do that so that's what I'm most excited about nice wonderful and uh I'm excited about everybody who uh will check out gain force and fow joins them or supports them um and also about everybody who comes up and wants to talk with any of us um afterwards um excited to continue the conversation um afterwards um thank you both for joining this panel um and then I have no idea if you on time or not um but also excited about the next speaker thank you thank [Music] you [Music]