March 23: Network State

currency [Music] which plays a big part to what the government does that right when you have a shared currency to to use to enter to transact with each other so um that's already one big component of what makes a government uh that you can do online uh and if you look at things like uh the uh the metal verse all these like uh social networks people are already like you know gathering together into this online uh places or online forums um and they are they can be from anywhere around the world um and so if you can do that uh right then you could imagine uh these people forming into a country uh which is uh online but then because let's say you have a lot of capital already and the members of this country are uh let's say influential you could potentially see them like get getting a plot of land somewhere on this Earth and then essentially start or found a country together so it's like you start with a a community online and then you go to a physical place I only add one opinion of mine here because I'll talk about this a lot um that if and this is like even if you ignore all these crypto stuff all these Network States stuff right like if you look at people from um around the world let's say whether it's Malaysia or us or UK you can already see that is this cultural shift maybe you want to call it a culture war in certain places but there's definitely a shift because like imagine you if you are a upper middle class uh person living in KL right you speak English you know you watch the same TV shows uh you would culturally be actually closer to someone let's say in London or New York than someone who is in some kampung in Clanton and that's the same whether you are here or in the UK or U.S so you can already see that there's this big cultural divide already and what made a country maybe 50 years ago is not as strong that connection as it is now and conversely if you look at our just like history like over hundreds or thousands of years the ideal or concept of a nation state is fairly new um you know Malaysia has only been independent for about 60 years um even in the U.S probably I don't know like 200 years uh before that we never had this idea of a country of a nation state right you had like huge Empires or civilizations yeah city-states but no real concept of Nations States so historically also that idea of relationship isn't that long and with the advance of Technology you could imagine that a different kind of government or state could exist um and even if you ignore crypto or whatever like it looks like that is uh gradually happening regardless right the people are feeling less and less a part of the same uh kind of nation and if you want to be very like pessimistic about it you could say like one path that might lead to is conflict you know this side wins the other side not happy that's that win this other side not happy and you know one way to resolve it is through conflict but if there was a way to coordinate uh with each other it could be done using uh either blockchain or similar Technologies so that's completely my personal opinion but I think it there is some tangent uh or parallel to to what this network state is about um yeah anyway we should put in people's opinions first is anyone should share but I think we should go through like some of the uh basic uh stuff first uh if you can go uh to the chapter right and scroll down to one sorry oh sorry go to the menu I mean and there is like a one sentence yeah we can go to the one sentence but first yeah so the one sentence uh part here is actually a couple sentences people here yeah so we can go to the first one the informal sentence uh so Network state is highly aligned online community capacity for Collective action crowd funds territory around the world and then eventually against diplomatic recognition from uh three existing States um so if you look at current uh environment now there are already a lot of Highly aligned online communities um you know even if you don't talk about crypto you know there's like huge subreddits uh huge I know Facebook groups um and then when we talk about capacity for Collective action uh it's not entirely true in this case but if you look at how uh you know usdc can get dumped just because people lose um uh kind of panic and there's a background and people lose Faith like that is actually a collective action right if you look at uh Wall Street bets when there was this um um what was the stock again that really got uh played yeah GameStop yeah so like even maybe 10 years ago you can't imagine like just normal people like collectively doing something that affected such a huge uh public company uh and like kind of the the financial professional Traders out there so we've seen evidence of uh Collective action uh then this part here is stuff that we haven't seen yet but uh what Balaji at least argues is possible because you can imagine a lot of rich people online a lot of Rich crypto grows I have a lot of money and potentially they could crowdfund uh territory that means buying shared plot of land together we've already seen crowdfunding of um at least an attempt to buy the constitution of the US government uh there was crowdfunding of a couple other things one of them was at least successful I can't remember what it was um so you've seen like and it's like in millions of dollars it's not like it's like small change so we've seen example of that um and you could you could imagine an example where people do it for a plot of landline and then this is a bit more of a stretch where you can imagine eventually people who get that ball of land they can stay together and they could if they are highly influential also they can also eventually gain recognition from other countries um yeah so if you go down here he expands a little bit more uh so a network state is a social network so we mentioned that there is a moral Innovation I think uh we can cover this a little bit later sense of national Consciousness uh recognized founder capacity for Collective action in person level of disability integrated cryptocurrency conceptual government limited by social smart contract and an archipelago of crowdfunding physical territories um virtual Capital consensus uh income real estate for print I I think he covers a little bit more later so first if you can go to the next one now just go down ah okay never say in one image yes so Network state in one image yeah so this is a different View and I think a big part of his uh kind of book or his points is that uh you can imagine that there is a live dashboard right of various communities around the world so um let's say there's an ekl Community let's see there's an eat Tokyo or East Mumbai and there are people in these communities from around the world you can have dashboards because you can track it it's essentially like how you track blockchain nodes right so you can track uh how many people there are how many um how much income they are getting if it's uh entirely on chain and how many square meters of land that they have bought so like it's land that's bought around the world uh not just in in one place um yeah so so this is just describing that same point in um a picture instead of one sentence um and you can see that uh what the first thing is it's not physically centralized so like you would have potentially have plots of land in different uh parts of the world uh geographically and then [Music] um because of this whole online thing right and a dashboard so you could imagine it comes from uh anyone could start uh a country uh in this case kind of like how when we had icos people say you know you can start your own company uh which you know maybe is a simplification but it is true you can start it just from a laptop so you potentially could start something like this just from a laptop as well uh and one cool thing with the dashboard is that you have a real-time uh census so I don't know how many of you like kind of look at how governments do sensors you know how they find out about their population it's very like cumbersome and it's not necessarily accurate it's essentially surveys and polls um but if you have these kinds of community who are connected online you can do real-time senses which a normal government or country would find it very very hard to do given that there's a lot of um what's called that technical that that they would have to overcome to be able to do this um yeah so you can also do things where in a continuous way uh you know you don't have to do things like let's say every four years you can have things that are much more fluid um and it's much more easier to get people uh to to move in and out of a so-called country like uh you know immigrants because it's online you know it's easier for them to immigrate into a particular Community versus others I can go next yeah okay so then I would say in 1000 words so here actually he goes through some of the points that he mentions uh in a bit more uh detail or like the the steps that in his mind at least uh is what you need to take to get to a network State up uh and uh interestingly you can see some similarities with EPL at least at the first few steps here and many online companies around the world so uh the first step he says is you could found a startup Society so basically just an online community uh that there is there is a shared alignment of a goal um so a crypto committee is a is a good uh kind of example so you all have a shared like the simplest numbers version will be like let's say you all believe in this coin right so you all come together online because you all want to pump that that coin uh together uh you could also have a group like let's say like ekl who have a shared vision of how you want to use uh blockchains and smart contracts to better the world but there is an alignment of aspiration that people come together um and then uh you could after you have that Society you could organize it to do a collective action to be able to do something uh together um he describes it as a network Union uh where um unlike a normal Union uh it's not like um protesting or a challenging a particular company but it can be used if you can imagine a union right you can get together to do a bunch of different things out there uh and then after you've done those first two steps uh online then you do things offline so you could do in-person meetups like what we're having now uh and um like because there's only so much that you can do online uh when you do things offline then you build like a certain level of trust that you won't be able to do online and I think this is the part where it gets a bit more like into the physical world so uh step number four is crowdfund physical notes um so once there is an element of uh of community uh between the different people then you can start crowdfunding uh let's say small houses or hacker houses uh apartments and then gradually to like bigger spaces like towns and uh even cities after that and the cool thing with this is you don't have to do it in one place right you can do it in many different places so you could have physical communities from around the world and uh like you have like let's say one in KL uh one in the UK or one in Japan and then because a member is a member of this online community they could even like when they are moving across cities or different places they can go to the other let's say in Japan they can go to where that plot of land is of that same community and still be able to access the same facilities or or benefits uh he mentioned this earlier but yeah so step number six you can conduct on-chain senses so you can do um you can get data such as population income and so on um and and you can show it in real time to like kind of let's say if you have like a a a total balance uh of uh funds that are held by the members you can show it uh online and with that comes influence and so you could then convince other states around the world to be able to recognize you as a country again just to recap this is a theory from Balaji it may not necessarily end up this way or it may not actually be practical but this is in summary what uh what he said uh if you can go to the next one I think this one uh yeah never safe in when I say uh we'll just go to this person and I think we can discuss because that essentially summarizes the point of the book um without going to like details like the culture War um but yeah so this part here uh if you scroll down a little bit uh he just describes like how typically uh in human history people have founded countries uh so the first one is the most like relevant one for for people uh you know you win an election and then you either like write new laws or you like go and succeed and create your own country out of an existing one uh then the next two are not so nice uh either you re revolt and overthrow a government or there is a war uh or some sort of huge conflict where people die and then you you create a new government from that uh then there's more controversial ones or more um sort of Fantastical ones so the idea of a micronation is like for example if you can get a a plot of land or an offshore platform that's like in the sea and then you can essentially stake ownership over that place uh if no one else is um kind of like claiming ownership of it and similar to that is a c studying I don't know if anyone see studying if you know what she's setting is essentially if you have like a huge cruise ship right you could live on that cruise ship for 365 days a year and essentially that's your country La um so it's uh I think this yeah Factory Friedman I think x uh Google person and um descendant of the Milton Friedman popular from economics uh it's a huge like uh founder who's doing this and lastly is just through in space up if you do it in Mars or the moon like no one can say that that land belongs to them so you can get there first and start a community data and then finally number seven is uh balaji's uh sort of contribution of What's called the network state so you start online unlike all the others and then you eventually like get more plots of land in other places uh yeah so that's a kind of a quick summary uh anyone who got anything that you want to add based on what you've read or understood from biology sting so that we're you know we're aware of that okay if you know it's fine uh just as a reminder this is not meant to be a talk by me uh seriously a discussion uh for anyone who wants to have it but yeah if you we go to uh Google Docs uh so we covered the the first few parts up so I thought uh some other things we could do is just to give thoughts on uh what we've had uh about networking or about like similar Concepts uh and I can start with a couple kind of like uh main ones that I have I probably have more but I haven't like sat down to literally write them down and I'm when we're discussing I probably can like re remember what I've uh thought about uh but the first obvious one to me is uh like how do you avoid conflict like it's very easy to say these kinds of words uh you know to throw out a theory but um when you want to do this you know if I'm the Malaysian government or I'm the Russian government or the US government like if you want to start buying plots of land and I can see that you are you know doing this to eventually form a country like there is a threat to my sovereignty and it is within my rights to take action against you whether Financial or moral or like physical so I don't know how anyone would be able to do this without um like inviting conflict on them and conversely like if you want to kind of prevent that then you would kind of like want to take up arms or like have weapons or things that you can use um but if you do that then you know you are getting close very close to the two points that he mentioned now of like uh creating a government via conflict via wall or or revolution uh so I don't know if you guys have any thoughts on this I feel like I don't see how you can avoid from getting into this kind of situation um yeah so so I I don't know how you can do this without confronting her to Honduras um some people who is static more than the decade like uh they actually managed to uh somehow Lobby the um the government of Honduras to create to change their constitution to create a special economic zone that allows them independence of Judiciary and Independence of remember like a like like security for like you can actually as a private company have your own like uh Security Forces like in that part of Honduras yeah it's uh called zadie like I mean it's short for uh how do you spell it a z-e-d-e nice that's cool yeah yeah and it's not uh uncontroversial either because uh you know obviously the locals feel like wow like you know like there's a lot of like companies like uh who would come in there and set up their own system living economy right contribution yeah um but you know but uh just like you know the locals there actually don't benefit a lot and so they have been protesting in class as well I I don't know it's still going on okay well I mean the fact that you made it like two decades I think that's a quite a huge achievement um I'm just gonna type this here yeah I think that maybe it's one counter example sorry one example of how um uh it works um another thought similar to this is like even if I'm jumping ahead a little bit but so uh one I idea right is that you could maybe not have a network state but a network community that is still part of a state right so instead of like creating something that competes with your local physical government uh you could do something that is maybe more like a I don't know what what the film is like some sort of Club where the members are joining and they're all still citizens of whatever country but um it's you have kind of like uh set up some sort of uh filter anyone who wants to like be part of that Community you know I can see what you've done online I can see that you share a same kind of vision then um you can be part of this community but you're not uh trying to be a different to whole citizenship citizenship of a different country that um I think that's not exactly Network state but there is some similarity with the idea so you kind of do it in a way where you're not trying to compete with your government whether or not that makes it because I mean there's that the miracle of War girl thing where this is a quick background like there was a after the 19th late 1920s or early 1930s economic depression in Austria in a city they created a currency um which worked really well because there is this like demo right or like the currency you have to force you're forced to spend it otherwise there's no use and it worked really well but then the Central Bank shut it down so I think the Counterpoint to my example is that government if because they might feel uh collected anyway even if you don't want to compete with them then they can shut you down regardless so then that that would kind of defeat the whole point in the first place um okay cool uh next point I had was on this uh maintaining culture so we mentioned a little bit I think of screen before we started recording on how like a big part of the uh the book covers this whole culture War that's happening in the US just a quick recap I guess like you know there is the left that is uh going further extreme towards the left and there is a right that is going further extreme towards the right and anything that anyone does from either side or even people in the center would get uh labeled or flagged to be on the other side and there's less and less like um uh like logical or shared kind of thinking and if you imagine that happening across different people around the world in different geographical locations I can't help but feel like there will be even more of that that would um kind of start up maybe at first you have a shared aspiration on um let's say ethereum or let's say refi you know there's a shared goal but as you kind of run a country eventually there'll be like different interests different um like goals different um desires of the different members then ultimately they they would then also have their own kind of differences in culture right so how do you as a network State how do you deal with that like do you Fork your country every time and do you how do you do it without having some sort of conflict um yeah I don't know if you guys have any thoughts on on that part where to start yeah yeah there's a lot of questions in there right um the first question is like uh inside any group whether you're a state or a or online community how do you like uh kind of like maintain like consensus right of course at one extreme you know like you can be a dictator you can force everybody to agree with something right like uh most likely people who have means of exit for exit on the other hand you can be totally free right and then people will choose based on that and like uh you know I then then like uh it's quality of ideas that win but then you know like uh that one extreme people kind of end up uh 100 different ways uh and I think what are the challenge like I guess ultimately the logic of uh of what I think biology is going for is that like uh if people are to stay together there should be more rationale for them they should get more out of being together than being a part where it's the same like kind of like you know like why do people like uh have families or form communities and religious because yes you don't agree with everybody 100 but you gain more often together than being a part and of course like the the trade outs balance you know like uh so like these days like a lot a lot more people are like the Wall Streets are higher today than maybe like uh 50 years ago uh part of that you know like there's a lot of people saying it's a morality thing uh part of it my part is also kind of a logistical thing right like 1500 years ago like uh if you had to manage your farm and like grow and manage a small place over your house right that was very unfeasible to do if you weren't a couple or a family right so why people had big families because every kid was a laborer in a way right but in the modern context you know like uh many people like many cities support people living single perfectly fine right there's a lot of social kinds of stuff like normals around like being single are also a lot more acceptable so in a way it enables the cost of being not together in a different way and you scale it up to like uh kind of like a community or all that right like so I don't think like about this advocating like a single super Network State around the world but he's saying like a world in which like uh and I think the culture World thing is significant because a lot of the view in the US now is that if I go one way everybody is on the left and I go towards this thing where like you're all police for whatever you say on the other hand you go to the right where it's basically kind of like rule of the strongest and like you know like uh it's all all fighting and it's just like if you actually think about hey you know I want a world where I can be free to like think what I want and do something and still have benefits from society right like both of these options kind of suck right and I think he's putting up networks and saying hey that's not the only way where you can actually have governments that create conditions under which people might want to live right uh so so I guess every every government has a good trade-off but I think his point is that like that's not a perfect way to do it but that's why you need to make it easy to form a new state or government because then states can compete to be better governed right like uh and if people can compete then people have a higher chance of getting a formula that actually is attractive and sustainable and can get the right people yeah and there's one thing I've also talked a lot about is like um and and it's a good thing that that nation states exist with passports and borders and stuff like you know we have a lot of a lot more certainty like if you imagine people from hundreds of years ago you know um you might be traveling somewhere in a caravan and you can read it and you know you get killed or raped or whatever but um one downside with the borders uh that we have is that you know you have this passport right and and like you know let's say you are part of a country and you may not enjoy or you may not share the same beliefs uh same culture of the people there and you want to move out it's a lot more difficult now because you need to get a Visa you need to get you know apply and all that stuff whereas people from before if they don't like they can just like take their belongings and move somewhere else right so I don't know how much of a similarity they are but like the idea of like having this network Community is like potentially it's easier for you to move to a different network State yeah even though it's essentially next door particularly but uh physically but uh online and when it comes to like shared interests and goals and and beliefs uh you could move very quickly between uh different ones yeah so I think that's that's a good point um I still feel like you know especially when it comes to like country level stuff right like uh there will be resources that have been like uh built up you know uh finances uh Financial capital or Social Capital like that maybe this is my understanding of human self but like you know you will build a certain like a political kind of uh influence so even if at the point where you know there are some differences and you want to like Fork into different uh states there will still be a uh an interest in being the original one right like being the ethereum versus the ethereum classic because then you retain the uh that huge amount of capital and I I don't know if you discussed that to be honest I ever read the whole book so I don't know if he discusses how people can handle that in a conflict uh minimized way right I think you just speak a bit about that but like uh it's a periodical on the rabbit hole now yeah but I think along the the earlier point right which is um like a lot of the a lot of he's pushing for the network state is really about how do you enable like a competition not governance right uh and like as a different typology and if you look through history like uh the OG or the classic is not always the choice right the US is in a way like uh he talks about this in the book right you think about like uh he cites a few examples of like uh of like interesting countries like here I think inside the US Singapore Israel like this in India or something like that or as different examples and it says that if you look at the uh legal their constitutions that they are lost right they actually like you think of law as code right they all off the same code base which is like uh like they kind of come out of like UK yeah like uh what is now UK like previously English like uh common law right and so like uh and you know each of them had a reason that they evolve a certain way right and the respective code bases plus the cultural factors plus all these other things have enabled the societies to to grow and to flourish in different ways right and you know like at the time when the U.S became independent it was a bunch of like random colonies on this other side of the world that were pretty like you know like kind of like you know like useless right like uh they were like there were minority people in the in the continent like I think that the population was majority like what we now cognitive American right but over time you know like uh you fast for 200 years right especially after World War II not most people say oh like us is actually a much better deal than that right so like uh things have happened over time and sometimes even like like uh a lot of money now is actually isn't really helped by Nations anymore right like you think about it like uh a lot of corporations that have more wealth uh their own private security forces if you go to like uh my best if you go to Brunei the shell facilities is probably better protected than then maybe the palace right like of course like God they have like difficult Security Forces like a lot of countries now have like uh offshore special economic zones and stuff like that so even if you don't think about Network States right states are not completely all the same the special zones of All Sorts right like uh you know like there's a lot of like gray areas right like there's special zones where like there's no taxes uh like there's zones in like I think Switzerland where you can like put in art that is not in any country because then you have to pay a tax on the value of the art and you can just hold it there in some sort of weird thing so there's only a lot of hacks in the international law system right so in some ways like there's a lot of pockets where like that's really pressure to exist even before you bring in the and I think ultimately like in international relations I mean like the thing is kind of like what like that's that's a very really specific view which is like like the strong one do do what they want do we do what they must right and I think it it's like kind of like the answer towards how do you avoid conflict with others is that how have small states like Singapore and others survive into now and you know like by being more useful to other people to exist that do not exist or to be co-opted right and like uh maybe it's a combination of diplomacy and like being useful and like I'm sure at some points leverage your power in some ways it's also critical but on Sunday when you can't avoid that but if you look at the population of like a network what networks of populations like to have yeah previous pretty smart people with uh Global influence and capability and stuff like that like you know like uh I mean they they could like uh they're probably capable of Defending themselves in in some ways right maybe not the directives like guns and pistols and stuff like that but you know like I mean any kind of organization any kind of community that has something worth stealing right generally once you think about like how is your stuff going to be protected uh and it may not be like Direct Security but you know like what what sort of Leverage do you have to put like that I think a very interesting point to that is like again maybe not physical Weaponry but uh if you have like Financial Weaponry right right we can look at you know basically all the hacks in smart contracts that have existed um that could also be a way to kind of counter like you know you attack using this money disappears right away right or like self-destructing uh there's a lot of different kinds of things you can build in with code that might be as effective deterrence yeah for that of course Len is you know kind of like generative Defender right away physically right like and all that but even that there's a lot of different ways to like uh that people have thought about defending and acquiring land yeah and I think one of the interesting ways uh I think as a smaller country or smaller entity is you can do this like mutually assured destruction thing right so you can create an environment where you can have some sort of maybe not physical weapons but again like maybe Financial weapons or things like that where like you know if you attack me then I will bring you down with me yeah and you have enough of a credible threat that it becomes like a self-defense thing about um yeah but I think if you don't even being so big you know like uh there's also like a kind of like a there's a conflict realist sort of international relations you but also symbiotic kind of view right like if you are a neighbor if Malaysia has a lot of land like it's like you have part of like uh let's say like what what's the biggest state right you're part of the land and suddenly there's a new group of people that come out there that are super smart super wealthy and all that right like uh it made up it's so so smart for Malaysia even we may not like them very much but it may be smarter for us to think about how do we trade and like find a good neighbor partnership with them then attacking yeah right like uh like Conquest is not the only way to benefit from a wealthy neighbor right you can think about other relationships and stuff as well and so in some ways like to I mean this is part of like what some places like uh like Hong Kong has been able to do because I mean obviously there were some geopolitics in there as well but if you're more useful to your neighbors uh like alive and dead yeah then you know that also gives you some stuff like it's very close to home it's just Singapore right yeah or Switzerland right like in the middle of all the world of course being a mountain so there's some natural yeah defenses and stuff like that but I think both all the sites in the world went to Switzerland intact because all their wealth was in there right like if you were available to Nazis stealing stuff from like uh from like all all monasteries and like sticking it there or like the other side you know like there was some mutual um interesting that alive and I'm not saying like all the network things have to go down that right but on some level like if you are in the the real game which is no one can do one is obligated to defend you then like you get what you negotiate yeah that's that's uh yeah uh quick plus just to get from yeah if you have any thoughts at all uh like does it make sense uh is it completely uh I completely lost very new uh concept but does it make sense to you the whole story the whole arguments I see how it works yeah I think ultimately like uh I'm curious what about you if you have any thoughts [Music] she's yeah bring up together and combined parents pretty much the same thing like how we can do like this data she said we can realize it more because it's just something that is not new but it's always there this is like the way the form problems yeah uh yeah so um I was going to say also like we mentioned at the start like uh it feels at least to me that it's inevitable that we are heading down a path where people will go away from one thing to be part of the same nation state anyway and without some sort of solution like this you know you can't avoid from thinking it will end up in some sort of conflict so at least this is a path forward that people can try hopefully people in the right current generation or the Next Generation to try before the kind of culture War things reach a Breaking Point and you know we end up in some form of conflict so maybe there's like a way forward that people can track um okay so any other points um I just wanted to add on to something five is talking about like well um so I I feel like like uh Vice was saying that there are the ideas here are actually not new like like you know like they're um like did nation which I have some friends in like a head explored this a long time ago but also like between them the founders there was also some kind of form like uh on the issue of violence actually on the issue of whether to use gun or not um and that's interesting because um it's really at the core of like what needs to be resolved for anything that like small actors um like like you know like for me like I guess I see it as like there's hard power and there's soft power and you know you can uh provide a lot of soft power benefit and sometimes when it comes to hard power like um if you don't have a strategy it will like for how do I put it like you know like this is this is I have a friend um Daniel schwartzenberger um he is actually looking into um web um like web 3 because he thought like the example of Switzerland I don't know if it's Switzerland or not but he uh he mentioned a country that has um they are uh their invest their their military budget transparently like disclosed to the citizen and So like um he felt like that was interesting because if you had done that in a typical um like world you you would think that you would get attacked because people know exactly what your military inventory and everything is but some somehow the reverse happened and so for him he started looking into smart contracts as a way to get like small countries to kind of like band up together so that like you know like you say the neutral Elite assured destruction like uh it actually has this effect of creating some kind of like positive Cooperative game theory that can um kind of keep the big actor in check so you know that's what he is interested in right now and he's actually actively lobbying like crazy enough like nation-state like leader to like adopt this like he wants it to be like on the blockchain like he wants like you know topics yeah so yeah and then uh this is my own personal plug I actually wrote a paper on code AS law before reading the dial hack back then and uh again you know this goes into a lot of questions around governance like because you know like I mean ethereum has a vitalik as the novel dictator but you know not every nation state you know like we'll even voluntarily lack for that right so you know how yeah there's actually a good point since you mentioned uh benevolent leader uh somewhere I can't figure out where exactly in that book uh Balaji makes a strong point uh in his opinion of there needing to be a Founder uh yeah a strong founder uh do you have any thoughts on that because I haven't read too much of what he said oh I think his point was that like uh you know it's uh because ultimately like uh communities like a like a strong enough Community to form this like typically needs like a strong way of course a moral Innovation right it's kind of some sort of like uh story or purpose or they're like oh like we are people who don't believe in guns or some sort of thing and like I mean it can be more specific than that right but some sort of like uh great story and you should like typically like uh like let's upload for like human leadership entrepreneurship to kind of Bring It about right of course like uh that someone who starts it may not into like you can also admission a society that eventually is self-governing I just need like a strong personal leader but I think he was kind of saying empirically to start something very often like you know what can start without like having at least someone disproportionately invest a lot of time and energy and into like starting it right so I think that's kind of what the ideal performance is but you know obviously if something self-founds you know like maybe but you know like uh I mean just a disease because like you know retali is very young right yeah interested to see if this network or online communities can have a strong founder that builds things up but it's kind of selfless enough or decentralized enough to like give up their power because at least from my observation there are a lot of you know leaders who whether or not they are like royalties power crops right yeah and then you know it becomes their kids or their like close family who essentially like inherit um I guess they might be exceptions but even if you look at like let's say Malaysia and Singapore you can see it's like kind of same families right even if a new leader comes up then by the Next Generation it's their kids um whether it's Malaysia or Singapore so so yeah so so I I don't know how that translates and then online I don't think I can do this particular question Justice by itself but like I will say that this is a not a new problem yeah no problem that's been studied extensively in political science right so like people like John Ross you know Society of the wheel of ignorance where like kind of like you know you'll have the wheel of ignorance John Ross r-a-w-l-s right this is that you should choose a society uh to live in based on this idea that let's say I you wear this wheel you're blinded right I'm going to join the society but I don't know whether I'll join in the top one percent or the middle 50 at the bottom right and the idea is that the ideal Society is one that no matter which person is something I am I would still want to join the society right so it kind of increase Society but like it's not because of who you know and all that so like the accident of like when I went to society whether I was lucky to be born into like a rich family or poor family or like a certain race or not right but so the that's his idea of the ideal society and you know like I think part of the potential moral innovations that RG is talking about could actually be you like you could sort of smart contract and design some of these things into being right to have a self-expiring like benevolent indicator thing where after five five years I wasn't was you know like uh kind of like hand over to somebody or like the smart contracts will transfer power automatically to a randomized person uh and stuff like that right there's a film for it right where like a random person is elected as leader uh I feel like yeah that's a term for that right so like I mean and is that the right I mean obviously like you can debate whatever there is right but I think one of the power of the blockchain now is that you can actually make these quotes as self-executing whereas a lot of democracies today right have puts that limits and stuff like that yeah right but typically if the leader is powerful enough they just amend the code right like uh we've seen some some big leaders our name names right who have extended uh overridden their tournaments yeah multiple times and I mean there may be good reasons for them doing so yeah right but the problem with like laws of versus code is that laws are typically easier to change uh if you have a struggle whole and power uh whereas like if you design a good like you know like balance like uh trustless system then like it can be self-executing so it's easier to prove that commitment okay so uh we have eight minutes before 9 30. uh I didn't want to put in there to kind of discuss it from a Malaysian uh you know because this whole thing is global online you get written from someone who is uh from India but lives in the US like if there's any takes assimilation we have our own upbringing we have our own views of the world like if anyone has any points of view on this topic yeah as a Malaysian yeah I think there's a lot to absorb uh a few ideas uh one is that like I've talked about we spoke a bit about like you know like uh kind of like if you talk about Malaysia Today the we have I probably have more in common with the Reddit groups or the things that are part of the other people then with like 10 random Malaysians in the same city right and so in some ways like Malaysia is a good example of this where like uh like despite like what five six Decades of nation building now right it feels like I mean a lot of older people complain that you know like uh growing up in Malaysia today it's actually quite different growing up like 30 years ago right you're more likely to be like in like gated communities or separate things like uh we'll have less like uh multi-racial uh friends and of course just we can get to the whole historical reasoning for that but in some way like where you know where we're in a case where culturally like a lot of people have more like interesting affinities online and offline I think this is many Malaysians yeah and like you know like you just look at the recent elections right we're seeing also that there's actually different groups in Malaysia that are asserting in different ways and like uh I think it was eye-opening for for many people uh as well yeah and and well maybe not the same point but eventually like they were like in previous times in in kampungs people are a lot more like diverse culturally and like open to sharing with each other uh and I think that's something that uh I mean it's not even really the cryptola right this this whole point about how like why is it that when you were in kampongs you were much more open much more sharing versus uh in cities I mean there's an obvious state of like you know in City you're working full-time you know you don't you don't rely on your neighbors to like watch out with your kids or things like that so that I think naturally creates a form of division uh but um I don't know it does feel like uh speaking as a Malaysian living in KL uh like when you have these kinds of things online right uh like let's say you have subreddits you have um like these communities that you can be a part of uh online and and you you can build that kind of uh connection with people you're better right so like even in KL where there might be like eight million people but you know ETL is an example right like of like people who have a shared interests of you know web tree or blockchain and you can get together and potentially you know let's say get a hack a house and and stay together right so there's already that kind of um direction or some sort of like momentum to do something that is a bit more compound like in the the closeness of feeling so yeah maybe like one of the trick is embracing that instead of like shutting that right like online friends aren't bad and offline friends are good right but it's actually like you know like if online solve certain problems better right how do you encourage that and can you have like good online that actually Foster whether it's a Malaysian Spirit or like a couple spirit that right that is healthier and I'll help you maybe Royal Spirit yeah well I guess it is up to the people in that come home right because like you could have a spirit of pumping and dumping or you could also have a spirit of people who want to like do a shared uh good for the world I guess this part of my brain goes into again like uh maybe hard power with a soft power like okay so I think like uh how like the V in Malaysia which is actually like um diversity it's something that is um it's just not uh how do I put it in the current Financial system it's not valued uh it's it's something that I really wish that in Malaysia that we appreciate this much more like I think that you know like resiliency comes from diversity and uh you know like you can actually map it up in graph like you know the ones that have most recent like resilient it's just the the most diverse notes but but however like I think that the financial system that we have designed today unfortunately is something that um keeps us all like uh how to individualize and so the coming together is not uh something that is valued so that's why I'm interested in things like regenerative Finance but that's because in order for something regenerative to come about you have to find a way to Value the coming together and coordinations like solving coordination problems and uh and yeah it's like like like yeah one one day I really hope that you know we can value people who are like typically seen as weak or kind or something that actually enjoys more power than people who are just using Brute Force but that's that involves an inversion of the current Paradigm that we're in because it means something like well you know the person who is let's say in my term of most environmentally friendly it's like a weak action right like you you don't get money from you know being environmentally conscious but that's the current Financial system we're in so now like I'm like well you know is there some kind of Gotham Royal coin a credit or something that we can yeah Kickstart yeah and and do it in such a way where we don't corrupt this person uh right it's like originally kind of yeah that's true and they're all fully you know get breakfast maybe they are randomly awarded the whole idea of the random people to be leader um yeah okay I think if we have any last thoughts Malaysia has like what 13 plus territories in terms of States yeah right I think we have actually a bit of like a mini lab that shows kind of the potential of State systems right like so many Labs mini Labs like malicious kind of laboratory different kinds of states right like I look at the we have different style of different different state governments they can see different kinds of like ways that they are being managed and you think you're seeing people also like work with their feet and stuff like that right so like uh I think in some ways like the places that have multiple States already right maybe uh more interesting places to like actually prototype some of these networks data ideas you don't have to like buy out the land and get your own Army all that necessarily but you know like you say hey like you know like stay with too much land like but it's a lot of land if you had some thumbs and in fact many places are trying to do this a lot of places are trying to say like I'm going to create like uh this District that I want to attract a lot of like digital advice to come in yeah and essentially like a lot of the big tech companies out there have done that right when they like apple sets up a campus or or Microsoft as a campus outside of Seattle City and people like move there right exactly and so like I mean like in some ways like uh states and cities also is incentive to attract people to come right and like maybe that would say it's just an amplified version of that but instead of saying hey like you know like elang will build this corner and you can all come right but you give this if you give this corner like maybe ZD type of Rights and stuff like that maybe you can attract even more people and even more activity of course you know there's always a dilemma of like how do you do it in a way where the locals feel like the benefit instead of just the near benefit and stuff like that but I mean that's not a new problem in Malaysia with a lot of kids is where Partnerships are formed with other companies or countries right and sometimes you see that like only a few like leaders benefit and the rest of the people next to it actually end up losing up always against yeah uh I want to Shield this is a DM you on telegram uh I want to share this like a mini game on game material if you guys have seen this yeah uh oh you know this already yeah uh I highly recommend it as well I'm going to check the ammo um it's not really a game I can play around with it but like it's kind of showing how it works yeah yeah essentially describing Game Theory and how people can coordinate and the different strategies of whether you want to be create someone or you want to coordinate someone um I don't know it's not really directly relevant to to this stuff but it feels like there's a lot of um if you're encouraged that you know people who are doing good for the a community as a whole uh yeah this game is a pretty interesting thing uh just to kind of like wrap your head around uh what kind of behavior it leads to what kind of communities or societies yeah yeah I'm still loading so that one comment about this like one of the main most interesting things about this that you think about like trust in people like that sometimes it's easy to get very like depressed right because you're like oh like you know one bad actor can like just destroy everybody over right but the point of this exercise is stuff like that and like some of the game theory Research into things like this is that uh the threshold if you design the game well you can actually create like situations in which like the line you don't have to get 100 good people of 100 for something good to happen like if you design a game around like even 30 or 100 is enough right and this is part of like how like you know like I think like things like uh like what a lot of like good like decision design and like a blockchain like Bitcoin and ethereum are doing where you have enough mechanisms in place that like uh the cost of attack yeah yeah you can actually incentivize enough people to like so like to to get a you don't have to make everybody a good person to have a society that's successful right so with some good game design you can actually get away with like you know like a certain percentage of people that you consider yeah it's unfortunately not loading at all right in the last five minutes and we don't have much time yeah but maybe we can figure out some sort of Meetup activity around this game I feel like it's a really cool non-technical actually we should do like uh there's a lot of games around like these kinds of stuff you could do like a game game day with like trust games online that could be a cool uh activity to do but yeah we're already uh 932 and I don't want to keep people back uh for people to go back or you know just also just hang out with people in the other rooms uh we can all go downstairs it's like food uh and Catering so yeah thanks everyone for joining thank you foreign