#ETHDenver 2023: Goerli liquidity Panel

and then on the ends Ryan Pellegrino CEO of layer zero labs oh interesting equal numbers of claps for all three I was wondering if you know we would see controversy from the start um so as Lane hinted the ethereum community has been up in arms um about something that layer zero did a little over a week ago and I think that the reason people feel so passionately about it is because it really gets at what the values of the ethereum community are and um why don't we have Brian just start with your story of the problem that layer zero Labs saw and what solution it was that you thought you could offer yeah sure I mean basically pretty straightforward it was like near impossible to get girly like like very very very difficult uh we as we're building um you know you'd go to the faucets faucets are down faucets are broken faucets are out you write scripts to Camp the faucets you have to sit there for multiple hours slash days sometimes to get enough to deploy contracts to put in a contracts actually do things to tests like it was just an onerous process just to set the uh set the stage the girly eth is for a test not called girly yep um then we end up going to Twitter and being like all right who's who's got girly if like how can we get some and ended up OTC buying from somebody on Twitter to get girlies um yeah I mean that that basically that was a base problem very very hard to get basically the most asked for thing uh so we service like 30 000 contracts on testnet right now are built on layer zero like thousands of unique applications hundreds of thousands of users millions of messages by far the most common thing we get is like can you give us some girly eat right like universally very annoying to get uh for us it was just like okay like why should there not be some permissionless construct why do I need to go beg on Twitter and do this like let's make something that just allows people to just get it on demand when they want and so for us it was solving a pain point that we had as developers and that was like that was the intention behind it was nothing more than that and so basically at that point you made it tradable and so there was a price on it and what eventually happened is of course speculators came in and the price went up and it became very expensive to obtain this so this was or very expensive is debatable I think it's like 13 cents right now so you can for like four cents you can get enough to deploy a contract so there's there's like some some excess fees getting but like yeah very expensive is a is a spectrum yes I think at the Hyatt was like a dollar sixty yeah which means it would be like 40 cents to deploy a contract but yes okay so uh Greg feels very strongly that this was a bad move so Greg can you explain why yeah so um I think from like a historical context you know when it comes to test Nets and especially test Nets on ethereum we've always like there's always been a maintained stance that you know this is a free public good for developers to access um and historically it's always been a little challenging to get it you know test native it's been kind of cyclical um but the core philosophy here is that it should be free and it should always be free for people because we don't know you know like to test and to ex and to experiment like shouldn't have a cost Associated to it um to assume that we can just like buy eth or sorry buy task Neti uh is also a bit of a privilege right like I don't know what everybody's situation is I don't know if you're able to spend money to get you might not even have eth on mainnet which is like already the first problem right if you can't even if you're not even onboarded and you're just trying to experiment as a developer new to the ecosystem that is a barrier to begin with um the other problem that did arise with and where like I was pretty strongly on it was just like the negative criticism towards like the girly team as well um you know we've been trying to fund people and give it to people who can distribute it for us um as well as you know the final thing that like I made a smaller point on but I didn't address because I'm not in that subject match field but it's you know what do we have like tax liabilities and you know that come up and arise due to the fact that we're now putting a market and a price on this Heath does it only affect the people that bought does it affect everybody that's been holding um it becomes a super tricky situation and so that's kind of some of the three you know main points that I stuck with there yeah we get pretty contentious already all right uh so my main point here which I think is like pretty interesting is like a blockchain in general provides like one discrete unit of value and that unit of value is block space right uh like lock space is inherently both Limited in Supply and scarce like we none of us can like change girly to have a thousand X throughput like block space is the unit of value and block space is inherently scarce and finite so there's like three ways you can do you like in an ideal world you would have a permissionless construct where anybody can get test 90 for free but the problem and the reason you can't do that is because if there's a button when anyone can get unlimited test net youth for free then what happens is everybody pushes a button and now it is literally zero cost to spam the networks every block is filled the mempool gets entirely stuffed and basically nothing can happen like you cannot have it be permissionless and free because it won't function it's like a very basic construct of any blockchain like block space has value so there's two things you can do after that the existing construct that we had was permissioned and free right where free is that uh you know the permissioned is there's a select group of people who get a large amount of girly eat these are maintainers these are whoever and it's up to them to to kind of Dole it out the people that they see fit or set up faucets or do whatever at a rate that arguably keeps the blockchain working right uh so that it is not free and unlimited and people aren't doing it the problem is the faucets get spammed right all the faucets were getting drained they were getting bought it was almost impossible to use the faucets because it does have value because the block space has value and then uh faucets get more and more restrictive now faucets you have uh permission faucets where you need to dox yourself you need to dox your Twitter you need to doxor get help whatever it is to be able to get the eth out of it and at that point you're getting 0.2 girly per day out of this so that is one construct you could have where it's basically permissioned but free but there are Gatekeepers and your gate kept on time access and like Social Circle of the ability to like reach the people on Twitter to say hey I'm a Dev like please give me some of this the third option is permissionless but you give it an explicit value the blog space has value no matter what there is no like making block space less finite or less scarce it has intrinsic value and when you make it missionless and explicit you just expose what that value is based on the market and so like the the argument that there should not be a permissionless construct and it should be permissioned is is very contentious to me on my end because like on the base point that you will never be able to make it permissionless and free it cannot happen you will not do it um like you can't do that now you can't do a sepoli you can't do it with any chain yeah so Matt can probably speak to this a little bit more clear but we could very well have a function implemented an OP a custom op code built in pre-compile whatever to do some sort of drip where anyone could call it that would be very manageable at the protocol layer it's a question of whether that will be imp wants to be implemented as a custom function for testnet specifically but then it will just get budded and again the block space will get taken up there's a certain there's only so many transactions you can fit into a block there's demand for the filling up the blocks with transactions the more application developers that build on the network the more demand there is for that and so like even if you drip it's like minting money right you can mint unlimited money but like the the cost of a gallon of milk is not going to stay the same it just gets more expensible costs more expensive to insert transactions into the block I think you're really over indexing on the value of directly into the mic I think you're really over indexing on like the value of Gurley and I think that the reason we're having a lot of the problems that we have today is that a lot of people think that girl is not going anywhere they think I need to start acquiring early while it's possible to acquire girly because it's going to become valuable either somebody's going to create a bridge to mainnet where I can sell this or this is going to be the only testing that we have for the next 10 years I think if we create a a system where we're actually deprecating these testnets over time it's like why would I try to acquire a lot of girlies or some police because we're just going to destroy it in three or five years so so I have another contentious point to this in that so test nuts go back seven years go back even four years 2018 like there just weren't that many smart contracts written test Nets were primarily for client devs to basically say hey the merge is coming up let's make sure Geth doesn't break and like bork the entire network as we go through these changes right that was the reason we had test Nets and those were the primary people using test Nets now today we have a huge number of application developers and like it sucks as an application developer to deploy univ3 they spin up pools you spin up pools people compose that start having applications uh who are testing that and then like oh Network's deprecated shut it all down and like migrate to a new network like the application developers need a software cycle that goes Alpha Beta release just like we have in normal software like you have to have a production or semi-production environment to test this in and if you need to especially in a situation this is why you're struggling now to get like chain link and all the infrastructure to move over to somebody in two days but it's a manual movement and all infrastructure needs to move and like that is like a horrible experience for devs do you have to spin up this environment strip it all down and do it every time so but before we keep going um I think something that would be super helpful for people to understand is there's kind of like three main constituencies that use the test Nets so why don't we just explain that so we can kind of understand like there's competing interests and that's another reason why people are so mad about what's going on so who wants to actually Matt why don't you do it because and and while you're doing that why don't you also give your take on how layer zero suddenly made girl eats tradable because we didn't get to hear your take on it sure okay so let me say my take on the test net bridge and then I'll say like you know my role as a core developer and how we use the test notes so my take on the layer zero bridge I think it's hilarious I like it this is what I think about in these systems these are permissionless systems anybody could do whatever they want I don't know like what kind of conversations you guys had over time when you were talking about this but but this is something that we anticipated happening at some point like I think Dean eigenman said two years ago like I'm gonna be able to test that bridge for Gurley and I was like where is it I can't wait it's gonna be great but the thing that I kind of Drew uh you know a little bit of frustration with was like announcing it and sort of virtuous signaling that this was a public good for everybody I didn't really feel like the test net Bridge itself is like this public good I think it's great for layer zero I had no idea what layer zero was probably not a fault of yours probably a fault of mine I don't know how bridges work very well I think it was a great marketing scheme it's created a lot of interest in layer zero and Gurley and all these things and obviously we're on stage now talking about it and this is a lot of free marketing so I think it was like an incredibly great play but I don't think that it was like something that's valuable for Developers maybe for a handful of developers this is valuable okay you can respond to this and let me just say how I use the tests as a core developer uh you're right as a uh the test medicine that were in the early days were very much like let's make sure that the clients all work on these things we use this to test syncing we use this to test client compatibility interoperability between all of these things and today it's a lot less about that it's way more about application developers and when we think about how to do test Nets how to deprecate test Nets how to add new test Nets we're very much thinking about how do we do this in a way that it's useful for application developers it's still very important for us as Court developers to use as a platform where we get to upgrade uh we get to upgrade these networks before we upgrade mainnet absolutely I think that this is like pretty much completely orthogonal at this point though to how application developers use it so I don't really feel like as a core developer how we feel about the test that's super important I think we just need to be thinking how is this useful to application developers what do we need to do to make this useful for application developers and I'm happy to talk more about things that we've talked about to try and remove this situation where there's a finite amount of test net tokens and people are trying to get them because we have talked about a few different ways adding an OP code having different withdrawal mechanisms for the beacon chain we can get into that later and 100 agree with you on the the needs being orthogonal and that there is like a very very real demand for client devs to be able to test like we need to make sure these things are not going to break the network they're just different audiences in terms of what the developers need yeah so so does one of you want to then also describe the application developers and then the node operators who are also using these and what they're using it for just so we can like cover that to explain because the other thing is this wasn't that big of an issue until recently so we need to explain how that became so yeah start with the two other groups and then why it became a bigger issue recently yeah so um one of the other groups obviously is application developers those are people building dapps unit swaps the compounds the you know defy nft projects they need a lot amount of testing ether to like do you run simulations and stuff like that um the other main group uh that is unique now and this is really where the girly like strap came and like started choking the supply is from the amount of l2s and uh apps that and POS so anything that like requires stake and lock um like POS like completely locks up a huge swath of Gurley um like 600k just to start the beacon kit Beacon chain I sent that off two three years ago and that was how we said it so there's like Millions locked that we can never recover well we can eventually recover with withdrawals um and then when we have other l2s and 1559 burning testing at ether constantly it makes for the environment there to be very difficult um and you know when we built Gurley we didn't anticipate it to you know go on this long it was a hackathon project it wasn't supposed to be serious and you know there's a lot of ether from 2018 that's missing from that project or 2019 I can't remember um yeah so those are the other two and kind of where a lot of the supply is so one thing that people you know realize was okay this this is a thing and we need to make sure the next test net kind of addresses this so sapolia was supposed to do that and so when I was talking with some people who maybe you know Arnon uh aren't just don't love what layer zero did here or oppose it um they were like why can't they just use sepolia that's what people should be doing so Brian do you want to address that no I mean like at the end of the day the problem we had the immediate problem was getting girly that was a hard thing that's where all the applications were that's where our developers were building and interacting with constantly because that's where most of the infrastructure is uh very very easily could do it to sabolia as well um you know there is no hurdle to doing that there's no hurdle to doing this to any chain um so I think again and most likely that most likely the reality is like moving forward uh this sort of thing is out of the box this will happen on on almost every test now like like it or not there will be permissionless structures so I think like the focus is like as Matt was saying is like how do you build a better test now how do you actually uh build a test net that functions and serves the needs of application Developers which is a super important conversation to be had right but am I so can somebody explain I thought sepolia kind of had built-in a you know a better way to distribute the coin so that they're well sepolia has a way that validate I believe that validators uh or it's like a select crew again permission structure to basically minceapolia on demand but it doesn't change the amount of block space there is it doesn't change the amount of like what can be done so you can inflate the supply um but you still need to like one in some permission manner distribute the supply and two uh ensure that you know the Box there's there's still value to the block space there so the same reason there there were OTC markets on Gurley prior I mean a how full are girly blocks right now girly blocks are yeah so bullet blocks are definitely enough there's a lot of supply so girly blocks actually one application that we deployed one single application which was like the test net of ccdb the circle thing uh basically bricked Gurley for like two weeks like every single block we're full there were like five day like we were like falling behind and inserting transaction to be able to process them so like there are periods where Gurley is like completely completely full I actually just ran yesterday the number of transactions per block but but I don't have the exact number I could pull it up but like that's just how like ethereum-based blockchains work like they will fill up and they will fall down like it's gonna be cyclical it's always gonna be cyclical I think like the bigger problem is that you know by suggesting that there's and hey there's free market people can do whatever the hell they want that's literally the point of why we're doing a lot of this but like the problem I have is like if we're going if there's gonna be bad behavior or like where we're bet and I'm defining bad behavior as like putting value to something that should be a 100 free public goods so that we can try and actually onboard developers get people testing if you're gonna like if we're gonna have that because there's like otz happening I don't see why we should be like promoting further bad behavior like if it's gonna be free make it free to insert into blocks and every block will be full and spammed it will be completely unusable if we had 128 test net chains I don't think that we'd be having this problem the value in the value in the open market of the of those test net youth would be effectively zero right it might be one 100 millionth of a sentence so why did we not create another 16 chains why did we create I am very supportive of unsupportive of saying how structure where we need to Dole out and decide who gets test net who can participate everybody needs to come to us to get it is not the correct way having a permissionless structure where the value is driven to almost zero because it's abundant and people can test 100 is the right way and that is what we should be trended to so you would be supportive of having proof of work test nuts 100 why not but it doesn't it doesn't matter now you have I mean you have l2s you have four different l2s right now tied to Gurley like L2 in demand like demand for Block space should move everywhere if you want to spend up 128 test Nets what the problem is for application developers is that again you are not going to have this consolidation of like composable infrastructure what they want is to go and test chain link Oracles in their application they want to compose Unity pools they said multi-chain was the future it can make that easier but it's not there in general uh it is not like what people want to test so just to go back to this apolia question though because when I did like the pre-interviews yesterday um there was a i as somebody made the point basically that like there's a lot of demand in Gurley but really like the application developers should be using sepolia that that test net is like more for them is that is that not a thing or is that a thing yes so for since Devcon and Bogota we've been trying to tell people that Gurley is meant for staking it's meant for people to test their infrastructure on staking infrastructure and for the time being the L2 infrastructure and that's the polio is meant for application development and we've been saying this even before that uh simply because we've been watching the supply constraints happen um and it's been ongoing issue because we haven't been able to get custom like custom code built for a test net like Gurley implemented as something like go ethereum where we can try and like solve some of this problem re-top up the faucets indefinitely uh so we've been trying to push everybody a sepolia for that reason okay and is my understanding that Brian you guys weren't doing that because you don't have the network effects on sapolia that you need to do the kinds of tests you want to do or not not at all again we we can support there's not a problem in getting sapoli eth right now because nobody uses sabolia there may be a problem getting to believe in whatever six months from now but there was a problem getting girly that's the problem we felt that's the problem most right but what I'm saying is so because what I've heard was oh they should be using sepulia because we have this problem with girly and you're saying what what is it what is it they should what is they should right it's not like there's not some dictatorship that says like here is how you use blockchains like yes sepolia has attractive features for certain things I think people should move to sabolia but people haven't right and you were saying you don't want to use it because there isn't that we have 35 testnets right now we will we will connect to everything like we will use something so why put the effort into creating the bridge for girly youth rather than putting the effort that you spent on that on hey guys we should all be deploying to support you right now girlie is kind of broken for us we we did a public deprecation of as people who are running early nodes back around Devcon and so this launched well after that after Gurley was already deprecated it seems like if the real motivation for doing this is like trying to create a permissionless system trying to get everybody on board getting the right tested to the right people that saying hey let's move over to sepolia and helping them would have been like a more collaborative and like the real motivation of fixing a problem that was broken develop developers are on Gurley you're fixing a problem on a deprecated thing that's great in a year maybe it won't be a problem right there's it's a problem now I don't disagree with you that there should also be a movement of like move to sepulia like great everybody can encourage that but there is a problem on Gurley now and developing now so we can either say hey don't do this or we can say like here's a way to make it easy and yes this is being deprecated but like everybody should start migrating when they migrate but people have applications that are going to mainnet in a week week in two weeks and three weeks and like they don't want to migrate everything to finish up their testing before they move to mainnet right there is question for you do you feel that once you put a price on the girly eat that you got the result that you wanted do you feel like this the experiment was successful or do you feel like there are certain things that were bad side effects that in you know in retrospect you would have done something different my my expectation was that it would open it would be driven to literally zero like we burned our LP we put everything else wrong directly back into the girly pool like to put in perspective the girly faucets prior to this were emitting 0.2 girly per day there is currently 1.1 million Gurley available in the pools that weren't available to devs Prior that's the equivalent of 15 000 years of Gurley available for Dev select go and buy the number of devs who have hit of us and said like thank you this is like infinitely look at the Twitter comments of actual application developers like it is significantly easier now for anybody who's testing or deploying on Gurley to do that and like that was the goal so yes successful what I thought would happen is the price would be some sub fraction of everybody who had a ton of girly would just dump it because like it's deprecated and why are you hoarding it why is anybody holding it why does anybody care just make it open and super easy for people to have and like the test net will be dead but some fixed period of time uh so that didn't happen uh very much not what I expected but like did it have the end result of like making girly more available to developers absolutely do you find specula adding speculation though being an end result because I personally got spammed MP got spammed we all got attacked and basically being told one we're hoarding which we weren't if you look at what we've been doing hold up hold up and how many people after I posted this tweet that we're going live today literally said I'm scooping up girly eats so that I can go and speculate on this because like and and that's the point when you create a market you then disingenuine why we have a Tesla which is free access to a network and I'm sorry the block space argument is a bit loaded like this is a test net it's a test net like it's for five years we have not had this problem for five years we have had cyclical up and downs unfortunately unfortunately a year and a half fortunately a year and a half ago we had a 2X the 3x and developers that came in which made this incredible I Dr became a much bigger prom we've been talking about this on the ethereum repos the ethereum GitHub repos and the PM repos and the test resonance repos where you could have contributed to try and like actually help us instead we have a speculative Market we have price action put to this we have people speculating on this token now and who are actively telling us on Twitter they're speculating on this token which I'm sure there are a lot of developers that have grabbed I saw you say like 200 contracts deployed or something like that as of yesterday or something like that since great but like we are still putting price action I still have eth Global calling me and saying hey my developers don't want to go and buy girly eat can you go and dump us and I go and like dump them like 10 000 tokens so the hackathon they have it which is what's always been going on it's like you go to the there's resources available you go to the PM repos like there's discussions about how we can try and solve this but a permissionless structure doesn't exclude people from giving it away for free like we would be more than happy to donate fifty thousand a hundred thousand dollars to somebody who's well resourced to like vetting giving out grants to disenfranchise developers like let get coin do that let people donate like I'm not for uh keeping uh developers who don't have the ability to to pay whatever it is no that's not the problem the problem is like now there's such a large vast of like girly eat that has a price on it and the circulation circling people don't know what to do people actually don't know about tax liability genuinely concerned it's a genuine concern it's still again you will never convince me that a permission system is better than a permissionless system like you just won't that's not an argument I will I will how is girly permission though permission because you and a couple of few people had a ton of girly Ethan it was your job to fill up certain faucets and make the faucets docks because they were getting bought in and give it out to people it's your position that jumped over like 20 million amazing months it wasn't enough I'm not saying you weren't doing it I'm saying people had to go to you that shouldn't be the case nobody needs to go to somebody in the ethereum construct to get Ethan ethereum like we like you should not be arguing against permissionless structures ever Originals will always be better than permission period And I'm not saying you didn't have the best of intentions but it was entirely a permission contrary I had to go on Twitter and beg people to give me girlies I know to find the right developer who had the girl leads and say okay you were given in the pre-mine or you were given in like as this spun up like welcome to 2018 2017. this is what we've been doing for rink B Robson until and again now back then how many smart contracts were there they're actually live in production like yes defy summer happened nfts happen there are a lot more developers now which is something we should embrace like that's a good thing but it means there needs to be a different construct for how this gets distributed not every artist who's spinning up an nft and wants to test something on test stand make sure they don't bork things knows everybody in the Youth Foundation to go to and hit up and be like hey I heard you have girly can you give it to me okay so let's do this so Brian you've very clearly articulated the problems with trying to get this scarce resource that you know developers want to use so Greg and Matt since you don't think it's a good idea to have a price on these things um which by the way is you know uh at least in other blockchain communities a perfectly legitimate way to run a test net obviously people probably know about kusama which is a testament for polka dot and there is you know a price on kusama tokens so Greg and um and uh Matt since you guys are opposed to this notion how would you kind of solve this problem while at the same time you know furthering ethereum's values around you know uh easy access to developers like in developing countries or whatever I think I think this is something that we're just still discussing on the right solution and we need people like you who have a lot of developers that you're working with who are on the ground interacting with developers seeing these types of problems and have your voice in the conversation about how to solve the problem at the protocol level ultimately a test net is going to be a permission thing unless we use proof of work but there is still the permission aspect of creating a Genesis and when you create Genesis you almost always create a generous allocation with some eth and we just need to figure out a better way of doing these things I think that putting a value on test net ease is a dangerous thing for a lot of reasons we can't stop anyone from doing it again I think it's hilarious like it's going to make my taxes so much harder to do this year like I'm teaching with classes to you Boulder and at the beginning of it I sent him all one girly and now I'm like what am I supposed to do do I tell them they all have to file taxes now because they took this class so like it's funny but it's going to make things much more difficult and I want to find a way where testnets don't have value because I'm very much against test Nets having value in general the reason I'm against this is because that we once Tesla started to have value they start to lose the the functionality of being a test net I think the ultimate thing is that we want to do things on test Nets that we're not ready to do on Main yet yeah so this is Meek speaking as a core developer I want to be able to upgrade growly I want to be able to update sepolia and be pretty confident that the changes that we're doing are correct and they're going to work but they might not and fortunately we've been fortunate that we haven't had any kinds of crazy types of rollbacks but I think this is my problem with kusama and the gnosis chain things that are saying that we're Canary networks we're going to do things first once there's enough value in the system people are like wait a minute we don't want to be the first one to do it right like let's spin up another thing so they can be the first thing somebody that doesn't have any value and so then it like defeats the purpose of being a test in the first place and so maybe maybe girly ends up being like a valuable thing that's a very real possibility and we have to just create more test Nets that don't have value but I think that that's like an unsolved problem it's like how to do test Nets in the right way where it works with developers and I love like more engagement from people who are having these problems because I work at the ethereum foundation when I need girlyth I asked Tim beat Baco and he sends me girly and I'm like what's the problem like there's so much girly around and then I talk to developers they're like oh this is really difficult to get early so we need like more engagement there I haven't seen a lot of people engage and I think that having more test Nets is like a good solution because I do think you're right I think the test Nets have some value but I want to dilute it so much where it's like so little that no one cares I for what it's worth completely supportive of that like 100 percent yeah um I think Matt touched a lot of points I would have I guess like my best oh there we go um foreign how about I talk about what we're doing now to try and move forward from here because I think that's Matt covered pretty much most of the points I wanted to talk about right now gurley's slated for end of life Q3 Q4 you're using it get off it's you're gonna lose all your value and state your state that's there it's not worth it uh we're moving to sepoli as of two days ago because I thought people were actually deployed on it um we've started to migrate everybody we have people like chain link the graph Alchemy chain stack they're Fully live and running right now in sepulia uh Ave maker and a couple others pull together are starting to deploy and get going we should see everybody in the next week to two weeks fully deployed so you can have your composability um right now the big question is what do we do about transfer about actually getting ether into the right hands um that's a really good one MP's starting a so MP Mario Paula who has been taking the most amount of heat we love you you're okay um she's dumped on the layer zero bridge and has amassed enough money to give out grants for people who want to look into faucet design and Equitable ways to actually distribute eth um as well as I lost my train of thought well um I was going to also ask because I think this is it called Holly testnet that's going to be launched later this year is going to try to address some of those issues so can some of you talk about the way that that's being designed and throw in other suggestions yeah I I talk about a little bit because I spoke to Tim a bit on this like it really solves the problem of like bootstrapping the network with a pre-mine and the the idea behind it was take everybody who's deployed a contract on the last series of test Nets and on mainnet take all of those addresses and basically give them test native like that's how you bootstrap the pre-mind right so all of them get test 90th which is everybody who's like a verifiable developer so who you need to catch up from that point are strictly new developers coming in the ecosystem and that's who you need to figure out like how to get to rather than like here's all the test 90th to 10 people like please get it to the developers give it to everybody who's deployed a contract and then they do it now I do think this solves like there's a nice warm start to solving part of that problem I do think it will help I think with longevity of that test net you will start to run into the same problem over time time but like it's significantly better than what we've had over the last couple of series of them it's specifically here to replace Gurley so as kind of like the next staking main chain to use for like staking providers and stuff to test out their systems right Matt sorry I didn't hear you very well with the noise it's really hard to hear up here they're using yeah this is something we didn't touch on I mean you touched on it a little bit but I just wanted to say that there's like two main types of testnets the first one is like the permissionless validator set which if you think about the test Nets before we had the merge this was like proof of work test Nets anybody can contribute proof of work at any time and by contributing proof of work you could get validation mining rewards essentially and so this was our permissionless test and then we also had permission test Nets the permission test Nets have always been focused on being stable and robust for application developers and so Gurley was one of like the first like really big application developer Focus test now that ran the click protocol there was some problems with the click protocol we occasionally had blocks in the click protocol now that we've moved into the merge and we have this Beacon chain this proof of State protocol we still have these two types of protocols permissioned and permissionless but for the permission protocols we have a validator set that's fixed with known entities people who are running like a handful of validators who are known we can we have a telegram group with them we can make sure that they're very good uptime so that application developers never have to worry about huge reorgs never have to worry about the network shutting down and then we have permission list test Nets maybe put that in air quotes because there's still like these huge crazy unequal distributions of tokens at the beginning so it's not like truly permissionless the you know people who start the test net have a lot of these tokens but the gorilla has like moved from a permission click test net to a permission list test that and the permissionless testers are the places where we want people to practice their staking setups anything that has to do with running their own validators that's where they should be doing things and on the permission test Nets we want to add people who are building applications there because that those that's where we are very confident that it's going to be very robust that it's always going to be up and it's always going to be available for them to submit transactions so to go back to the values question because you know ethereum does really put a focus on making things accessible I mean some of what you mentioned like okay they're they seem like somewhat small initiatives in my opinion at least um to addressing that but I don't know if any of you have like bigger ideas around how to get more of this test net eath into the hands of you know more kind of underprivileged people I mean I think one thing that I thought of while we were talking is that if the goal is having a permissionless mechanism to access test net ether I would rather see people submit proofs of work on chain to a Smart contract that's imbued with a huge amount of value at the beginning then creating a valuable Market there have been proof of work offset so like this definitely happened there's proof of work faucets but I would rather see it as a smart contract completely permissionless in that sense don't need to send messages to people to get tested I think that you know Greg we talked a little bit about this we could have a split contract that the validators of the set just say I'm going to send all of my validation rewards to the faucets I think these are all good ideas but I do really think I would much rather focus on other alternatives to permissionless access to the test native and creating a valuable Market because this just makes it difficult in my opinion for a lot of people to figure out like am I going to interact with this chain now that I probably have a tax event yeah and sorry dude you want to say something no keep going yeah no and I mean sorry I remember what I was gonna say before um so basically to boot like how we're getting trying to do the initial bootstrap of some some of the sepulia eth is basically every every team that starts as they start redeploying we're gonna just be giving them because they most of them have foundations grants programs whatever they're all going to be getting it to try and distribute to the teams building on them so we can try and create a natural tree of distribution uh and looking into things like Matt said like Xerox splits where effectively we can constantly just dump it at everybody everybody even splits out um and goes through so that we can try and get in the right hands of people um so they don't have to pay and you know like problem Matt said we've talked about earlier okay last question to close out the panel and it's directed at Brian if this becomes an issue on a future test net is layer zero going to do the same thing again uh so it depends on how easy it is to get tested right like at the end of the day if my options are do proof of work submit to this faucet get a tiny drip or do that or pay like three one hundredths of a penny to get the eat that I need to do it like like I or other devs should have the options to do that you should have like they're not mutually exclusive you can have the ability to have these structures that people who cannot afford the X sends X dollars to do it to be able to do it right there's a trade-off of time I don't necessarily want to spend a huge amount of time trying to get the eat that I need to build Stargate pools like test if Stargate is going to break or function on a new feature I need to have uh you know there's just like things that you need to do with certain functions and so like I would gladly pay this is again what most people did Via OTC markets on girl eats and again I want to be clear like girl youth had a value before there were separate markets that people participated in to buy this for this exact problem the trade-off is time versus value and the goal is Drive the value to as near zero as humanly possible um but again it can never be free because the block space is limited go ahead because you said that before go ahead Brad you look like you wanted to respond okay again it's Block it's it's a test net we're dealing with testnet block space it's a public good the reason it exists is because we are bootstrapping it for people to use there are people like inferior Alchemy who probably spend like hundreds of thousands of dollars as a year to just keep this thing up and running so that it's free for people to use right so like that block space problem is not going to be a problem as long as you have massive node providers bootstrapping this thing but what's being filled up on Gurley not because of speculators but because of application developers ready applications 59 drops it right back down after because the base fee goes up like now like I'm sorry but yeah yeah it's more expensive it doesn't solve the problem and the test net youth will get more expensive okay I think it's like a typical debate nobody changed their minds so we're just gonna have to call it here this was a fascinating discussion I have a feeling we might see uh an issue like this again in the future just my opinion but thank you for attending and thanks for giving your thoughts can I say like one last thing oh sure not Financial advice make your own decisions but withdrawal is activate on early very soon two weeks ideal ideal outcome price near zero uh accessible to everybody I have 180 000 girlies and validators I will be dumping into the pool for what it's worth every we've come in about every every dollar from the polls we burned our initial LP but all original LP we've added battery dollar that is done that we've already said we're uh granting to ethereum ethereum development so like anything that is generated from this will go directly back to Grants on ethereum anyways which is what I what I think the nature of the change should be I do think people should have access to those things but I I think the end result should be going to Grants and going to furthering uh the ecosystem of developers okay okay it looks like everybody agrees on one thing that's that's a good way to end thank you and and just a special shout out to Laura and Brian they flew in literally just for this uh and we managed to make this happen last minute so just a round of applause for them making the time [Applause] thank you Laura for hosting thank you guys that was the spiciest panel of the day maybe of the week [Laughter] tuned for more I think this debate is not concluded yet um cool we have uh I think a short five minute break until the next panel is ready so uh stay tuned I'll introduce the next panel in a couple minutes