Dogfooding Technology at ETHDenver 2025 | Casey Gardiner, Fonz Olvera, Russell Castagnaro

[Music] testing GM everybody good morning Aloha oh um I'm Russell castano I am uh moderating this fabulous group where we're going to talk about dog fooding technology um and specifically dog fooding technology to eth Denver and what we I guess are going to be looking for in not just what we did this year and in past years but how we're going to iterate that going forward in the future um maybe you guys can intr yourselves F yeah hey guys I'm F I'm the founder and CEO at token proof uh good morning I think I yeah maybe good afternoon uh GM yeah GM we'll just do GM uh my name is Casey Gardner uh I'm on the board of uh sport Dow uh been around here since 20 8 um previously been at uh fio Foundation uh the ethereum foundation and uh right now I'm currently at Harmony so you know the first thing I want to say is an interesting thing about eth Denver we never talk about ourselves as it being a conference because it's not it is the largest running web 3 experiment in history and um and so being that we're experimental we dog food everything we try trying new things you hardly ever seen the same thing over and over again so um maybe we could first start by like how about each of you saying what the worst experience that you had dog fooding anything in the past was before we dig into and it can't be the application process for this year um that that's that's off limits uh but uh but yeah why don't you start with that yeah I don't mind starting it off um I I think if I were to uh rename this talk it would might have been uh Spork feeding technology uh because I think if you're drinking soup a little bit kind of comes out on a spork so we never really quite get it a 100% And um you know I I I know in years past we've uh we don't really use the same Tech stack every year uh so I think uh you know years coming uh hopefully we can reuse some of the the tech that we introduce here so yeah I mean this is my first eat Denver believe it or not and we are totally honored um to be able to run all the ticketing uh for this year's Festival but I think the keyw that that Russell mentioned is it's an experiment and every year it's an experiment and I think the entire space that we live in is an experiment and we see it evolve and we see it mature over time and there's very better infrastructure better um tools out there and you know when I when I came into to working with eth Denver it was very apparent that eth Denver Embraces the technology that comes out of the community and we were literally building the plane while flying it because there's community members that come up with really cool Tech that want to be involved um in in in this year's festival and so um what we thought was going to be the technology or the tech stack when we started is very different from what the teex tech is you know when all of you guys show up and it's it's all about collaborating and using new tools some of them work great some of them you know have a lot of room for improvement I don't think I have like a worst experience that I can mention and I don't want to throw anybody under the bus but um it's it's been an absolute pleasure to do this so about yours oh um let's see my I'm going to keep it to eth Denver and not to some of the other things um I think it was the second year um uh the 20 was it 29 2018 2019 when so the previous year for doing the food trucks the activation so I came out of crypto Commerce and Bitcoin and stuff like that so I was really interested in showing people how doing a transaction with crypto was important IRL and uh and the first year Austin did his thing I'm not sure I got the years right but Austin did his thing with the what be would become the burner wallet that was amazing and the next year we started with some new technology did it too late and hardly anyone could figured out how had to be on a test net and it had to it was um wholly unsatisfactory for everyone that took part and uh and I think that you know those those mistakes that you make are exactly what inform you the most so it's really important to dog food this stuff so that you see where the Real Pain points are and I was talking a little bit about empathy earlier and last talk but you get empathy when you dog food something because you have to and when you see where it fails you can design the product much better the next time right and I I think uh eth Denver could have easily just uh Implement sponsor technology but I think uh the thing that we do I think really well is work with partners and really build out their Tech stack um there's a lot of uh things that go into a conference that you might not really think about and until you're there and uh just being able to Pivot and uh just kind of uh go along with the flow and uh really just helps your overall product and we've done that with de folio we've done that with token proof um in years past we've used like poris wallet uh and and I remember the the bidle Bucks one one year we couldn't quite get the tech stack right so we ended up using Kong paper money and we gave that out as bidle bucks we we kind of uh made a last Stitch effort to to still Implement something um and still incorporate in community so um yeah we we we try to uh uh make things work the other thing is that e denber could have chosen to use something like Eventbrite you know but then if we're not using web 3 native tools what the hell are we doing right so and and hats off to token proof cuz it's very nice to come to a conference and not have to expose my wallet right and I think I've been waiting or something like that for a while it's always um at least for me a hassle to bring a wallet that has you know an nft or has uh some sort of ownership principles that I want to uh experience the profit of that uh but I don't want to uh necessarily want to expose the risk of having that on my phone yeah I think maybe it' be worth me talking just a little bit about what token Pro this and you know I know that there were a lot of pieces involved in getting a ticket for this year festival and I think we need to do better um to just simplify it even further um but I want to make sure that everybody understands why we built token proof in the first place and I go back to 2021 when I started dejing nfts in the space and I just bought board apes and punks and all this stuff mostly worth zero now um but uh I I went to nft NYC 2021 and the first ape Fest and I noticed that I needed to have an nft to come into all of these parties but there wasn't really a practical tool to let me prove that right and I wasn't going to carry around my ledger with my punk on it to get into the punk party like that's stupid that's just calling for trouble and so um eventually I I I decided that there needed to be something better where we could afford people the ability to have a portable identity in the real world so how do we connect onchain assets with the real world so that you can walk into to a store and get a discount because you own a buffer corn uh things like that and so we ended up using cryptography and QR codes and you might have noticed that the QR codes rotate every second and that's so that we prevent people from taking screenshots and Screen recordings and we know that when you're coming into an event it's really you that holds those assets um you connect your wallet once to token proof and then you can use it wherever while your assets stay completely safe on your CT storage and you can link as many wallets as you want I think we're integrated with like 45 different blockchains um and and so yeah it's all about true portability of identity so that you can extract value and utility out of the tokens that uh that you own on chain without really putting them at risk and so that it's seamless to prove that you own them in the real world to get that utility so I I think one good thing too about uh coming to an event like this from a product standpoint is is that you're kind of given an opportunity to see what you're good at um Dev folio the first year they did it in 2020 uh they were actually the application process the hackathon process and I think they realize what they're good at and they kind of uh more focus on that and I think token proof has an opportunity to be also the registr you know I think once you build out uh what you're good at you can kind of uh uh creep up to to other features so yeah I mean I think it's really interesting in sort of being a little bit on the outside but still seeing some of the inside baseball and what we had happened this year um just so for all of you know we had maybe six or seven different technology Partners involved or at least Technologies involved in the application process the AFF mentioned horrible application process and the biggest thing is that like syncing up these wallets and making sure that people are using the right wallet that has their Spork in it or their steak Spork or their buffer corns that that was somehow getting all the way through the system and you know token proof has is connected to web 3 but not really natively web 3 unless I'm wrong and so that integration which I think all of us can see once it's done right it makes so much simpler but even just the idea of Distributing um Distributing Spork to people the way it needed to get done was horrible Jason was up here earlier walking around like what a horrible task that was and being able to just connect those wallets the the wallet addresses is is really fundamentally key and we've learned dog fooding what's the next one well I what what's the next like hurdle that we have to get over I wonder if if you're if you think it's the same as I do with respect to what token proof is done already for us today I'll flip it back to you what do you think it is well so I'm glad you asked me that font um I I think it's the fact that you could have registered with a wallet or an email address but there's no way to syn those two together they're they're they're separate so if a speaker used their wallet to register and then their email came in and then you want to upgrade them for some reason now they've got two tickets or they've got you know and so that is is is hard now I think that was never anything we identified until we dog FedEd it and and and I think the reason you're absolutely right and I think the reason for that is that when we built token proof in 2021 we wanted to make make sure that people could be fully Anonymous and that you could come in with a wallet and we would never ask you for your email address or if we ask you for your email address it would be two completely separate identities that wouldn't um have any relationship with each other and now as the space is evolving we've sort of uh are becoming more pragmatic and and practical about it and I think this year we're going to optimize for user experience and we might be leaving I mean and maybe this is the wrong forum for me to say it but but maybe we're going to be leaving some folks behind that want to be like absolutely fully Anonymous and don't want to provide their email address or things like that uh but but in the end we want to solve for the majority of people that want to have a really seamless experience and I think that that is definitely an opportunity for improvement for next year I I I say this a lot and for the last couple years now and I hope that uh I don't say it uh in a couple more years but I think we're in the AOL stage of web 3 uh no one now uses AOL but we all used it at first to get online and it was a little clunky it was a little slow uh didn't really have everything that we see now and uh I think what uh now I think every iteration that uh we do at e Denver just uh just gets better and better we're always trying to solve the last problem or the problems we had in years past and uh just patience right You've Got Mail yep yeah I think you know I started with the source um but uh I was Al to Vista free and Juno Juno oh my God J oh oh my gosh oh were you one of those people that got free internet by looking at ads uh the Alta Vista one while it connected it showed you an ad yeah yep crazy now so let's get right right to it when the hell are you going to put um Ticket Master out of business what needs to happen really but seriously what would what would need to happen to become a contender for someone like AXS Ticket Master so so the big problem with the Ticket Master is that they're essentially a monopoly with Live Nation right and so it's really really hard to compete with them um the way that I would approach it is number one we have to get the web 3 Market uh down first like we really need to get that user experience in our home turf um perfectly where it needs to be before we start branching out outward right because if we try to compete as a small startup with somebody like Ticket Master I mean we would immediately fail uh we're not ready for that type of scale but obviously it's something that we think about a lot um the way that I would approach it is after we are perfect in web 3 then is there another Market possibly outside of the us where we can show that we can compete at least at a technical level with uh somebody like Ticket Master and and then see how things develop here in the States but the fact that they're a monopoly with Live Nation so they have the artists the ticketing the um venues because they also own the the the venues it's really really hard um and and at some point I mean you even see Regulators taking a look and seeing if uh action needs to be taken because we should be able to compete with them but I can confidently say that it's very very difficult when you're trying to compete against the huge conglomerate Monopoly yeah you know I also say from having 20 years in the payments industry that there is a carve out for Ticket Master so you're not allowed to charge people excessive fees when you're doing online payments and credit card fees however Ticket Master has a carve out because of their high value ad to do these 20 30 $50 transaction fees in addition to the credit card fees that are put on so there's a huge regulatory moat protecting uh protecting Ticket Master from doing that kind of thing and and you know it is both their strength and their biggest weakness they have to have that moat to have their model work otherwise they begin bleeding in a big way really fast I I think they're stuck a little bit too because it incentivizes people to go to the ticket office and get a physical item and I think we're at an age now where uh digital assets are digital uh memorable IIA is somewhat uh important to young people so yeah I mean the paper ticket stub is so ready to be disrupted because I have a box full of paper ticket stubs because I like to keep those MOS and now with things like token proof and po app and all of these things that are coming out of this community I think it's really interesting because the idea is that I don't need to have this box with paper ticket stops I can just look at my wallet and see everything that I've been to but also on the Utility side of things I should be able to use that old ticket stub to maybe get a discount at a merch store for the artist after I attended their their concert there's so much that can be done and then Partners can also leverage that um and and we're still stuck in the ice ages when it comes to that um and Ticket Master and so hopefully you know we're we're I don't know if it's going to be token improve or somebody else but but at least I know that we're contributing to um exposing that there's better ways of doing things at this point what do you uh you know like you talk to look at the swifties that are out there and that they like already hate Ticket Master and they would love to have a real a real program that could track how many shows they've actually seen and get that kind of stuff I mean it is it really is transform transformative and even at the the early band level having these clubs that they have I mean didn't didn't um um oh what's the one the the online service not orot the one fa um the bands used what was it called um oh for God's sakes like a fan page they're like no but it was their fan pages but it was anyway it was a competitor to to um to Facebook before it came out what Myspace Myspace thank you gez I'm having my brain is spacing but uh but you know having something like that where new bands could just oh yeah you're a fan you get 20% off because you were at this show you know that kind of functionality is great but but when are you going to start taking crypto well yeah we we are actually implementing crypto payments as we speak so yes um I've thought about this a lot actually imagine if you were this guy in 1964 in Liverpool and you were um going to a bar um at the cavern and The Beatles show up and they're not today's Beatles it's just this Indie band that are you know starting to play their first few shows and because you attended their event you get this digital token that represents that you were one of the first ones to see them and that gives you utility and as they get big you're going to maintain that OG status because you can provably say that you were there right and then 30 40 years later you go to Paul McCartney show and you have backstage access because you want you were one of the first people to actually see them in Liverpool in the' 60s like that that's the future that I want to live in and I think we're slowly getting there I if I look at my Apple wallet I see hundreds of flights you know that I've added that are just stayed there so I think we're slowly getting to that point where we want to have those memories we want to look back um for me just having po apps and like going on the app and scrolling I kind of get some Nostalgia so I think uh you know people want that they want to uh be uh you you know rewarded for their uh participation early or or just being present so we're all sort of optimists um you know about this but what about the the dark side of this about like surveillance the surveillance machinery and like what do you think if you could like look forward in five years like what could we do to avoid turning ticketing and these types of things actually into reverse surveillance on everyone to find what they're doing what what what kind of steps do you think we didn't talk about this ahead of time so I'm putting them on the spot here oh yeah we're just improvising um I think I think what's really important for us at least in token proof is that everything has consent baked in and so for example when you're going through an online token gate that is powered by by token proof so for example when you were applying to the hackathon through dep folio you would have to agree to share one of your wallets so which wallet are you using you might have 15 different wallets in token proof which one are you using to apply to depth folio and to me that's an important step because we're not just delivering all of your wallets to the folio you're we're letting you choose what parts of your identity you are sharing and so we're giving you control and consent as to what you're sharing to to me that's very important and and and we're also very big in not selling any data nothing like we don't want to fall back into the things that we know are wrong in web 2 and the Facebooks and Googles and you know the story we all know so I I think the inherited uh um positive thing about crypto is that I can make a new wallet at any time uh and you know if I have a a fantasy football league I don't want to tie that to my Taylor Swift ticket you know I don't want them to maybe know about it so I think uh the it's very easy obviously to to make new wallets and to to tie them together on a platform but not have them linked uh when registering or or participating in certain things and H and having that divide or that Silo is is a good thing I think what what other Tech uh do we have besides token proof I yeah yeah yeah that's another one for our badge um I know last year we used we look um and I and going to events now and and like I went to the Bass party last night and uh you know there they're using another uh similar product but um it's just it's nice to see the changes in the years of like what's trendy and I I hope we kind of maybe move out of that a little bit and see what's practical and what's really uh just a good product in general you know I'm really glad you brought up whe look and and mentioned it because what was interesting about that was that um it was all it was very were all new ideas and the Wii card that we had I still use that as my business card but it was um it was a really cool product but the way it was positioned for everyone if any of you came last year you know you got one of these purple wheel it cards but you were told nothing about it so there was all this technology that went into it it was actually a really cool solution dog and and they were dog fooding it right they didn't have anybody telling people what the hell they were supposed to do um to a certain extent I've met a lot of people who didn't know they're supposed to set up their card right we could have done a better job this year communicating that but they're also wearing it at least the wheel look C they put in their pocket and never or never took it out of the bag right this at least they're wearing it and then you oh I can Boop this I can register I can mint it that's really cool so we learned something from last year um unfortunately was at weix expense but that having it as a part of the badge was was more important than having giving them something they could take away um and use potentially forever I think you get more interaction uh when you don't explain things and people have to figure it out I think uh I come from uh like the Defcon conference and they give you a digital badge and you're kind of left with it to figure it out to hack it to go through the steps of uh the design of that uh particular circuit board and I I think we've taken that kind of approach where we kind of let people figure it out uh this year there's quests you know looking at that I I saw I had to scan 69 people just to participate in a a certain part was it really 69 I I think it was 69 yeah for the can I Boop you can I Boop your car look at this we're dog feding for real but yeah I think when you uh you inherently just give somebody something and have them uh experiment and then to be honest I I've also experimented on some of the cards or some of the the badges and there's other things you can do yeah um you know I won't go too much into detail but if you're a tinkerer uh you can do a lot with the badge and hopefully they figure that out after the conference um not so much during but uh there's yeah there's there's a lot of uh Tech that you can take advantage of I I think something cool that we did this year is because we integrated with the iyk badges we set up scanners at some of the lounges you know this um where if you hold a buffet corn in your wallet that is connected to your eth Denver ticket all you have to do is show your your badge we would scan it and then we would go to the blockchain in real time to see if you still held that buffer corn so that you could get access to that lounge and so it's things like this where where it's really cool to see collaboration between partners at e Denver because things come together and now there's all this interoperability between you know the badges and the tickets and the blockchain and so that I've definitely appreciated that this year yeah and then also on the token gating front we got the vending machines and so many of the vending machines you see around you can see you click on a little buffer corn and if your wallet has a buffer corn in it you get to get an item for the next two hour you know one item every two hours uh and I think that that you know that kind of stuff is cool and also we've got like we're using your verifier I think at the store yes right so that if you've got a ticket you confirmed somebody has a ticket they get it they all like a leadup on site they even got a 20% discount I think so we're like all these things are examples of how we're dog fooding this technology that's exactly what I was talking about that's a great example of disrupting the paper ticket stub because now you have a t a digital ticket that gets you access to e Denver but you can also go to the merch shop and get some sort of discount because you have that ticket or because you have something on chain that gives you that discount right but also some of you may have noticed in your token proof app because you have an eth Denver ticket we aird dropped you these offers for several bars around the city and breweries where they're set up with the scanner so that they can scan your eth Denver ticket and they'll give you a free beer or free drink or something and so that's sort of the interoperability that I'd like to see going forward and and from a uh organizational standpoint it was nice cuz uh I'll give you a little uh inside info like uh the the swag store for example was having a little bit of trouble uh they were in a weird area and we pushed a notification out and it was something Su that we could just do and be kind of spontaneous and offer discount you know for the next hour or two and because we had access to everybody um in a secure manner I think it was it made it easy and I I think what web 2 allows you or web 3 allows you to do is to reward your consumers or reward the people that are using your product and and you know that's just uh something that I think will catch on yeah yeah do you do you think like uh so one of the problems we've had is we've got um you know RFK Jr is having having a thing later on here and so staff and security and all that kind of stuff and getting them tickets and so he's doing a fundraiser here and so these people needed tickets to get in like thinking about ways that you could still make it easy to onboard people just that only want a ticket um you know that is like that's going to be the next thing that really you know that really helps this is the biggest event that we've done at token proof with you know tens of thousands of attendees um and one thing that I definitely realize and I appreciate now is that there's a lot of friction in requiring users to download a Native mobile app and so I think what I'd like to see for next year is a web app so that it's easier for people to to interact with us um I had somebody from the I believe FBI that attended e Denver and she was trying to check in and she goes I cannot install a native app like um so you know there's there's ways that that we can support it um but I thought that was funny excuses I didn't think blackberries uh had uh in the apps so yeah the fets are here so what's so so first I'll just want to give you give the opportunity if uh someone else is organizing a big event how do they get in touch with you to to use this for next time yeah you can visit us at token proof. xyc you can uh look me up on Twitter and follow me at FGM and we want to collaborate with anybody and everybody so please please feel free to to reach out so what what do you think like are the first three things you guys are going to start working on after you sleep for a week after e Denver um definitely the web app I think we need crypto payments I mean it's it's it's overdue at this point um and just anything that makes it easier I know that we saw people having trouble connecting their wallets certain wallets um to token proof and so we want to address that issues as well the the the great thing about eth Denver is that you get this patient type of attendee that also appreciates that you know this is a community lead effort that you know they're helping provide feedback and you know they're not screaming at us because something went wrong and there's always something that goes wrong and the only thing we can do is improve and improve improve and continue continue um adding value to to the community in events like this yeah we're all trying to figure it out right so what um so away from from the token proof side of things what do you think is the most clunky thing that web 3 has and and what would you be you like number one list is everybody needs to get out there and start dogging dog feeding Solutions or Spork feeding solutions to uh to solve this I think a lot of it is the wallet issue and uh self- custody and Seed phrases and you know um the friction involved in I mean it's always a good exercise to try to onboard my mom into web 3 and there's two sides to this one is how easily can we get her set up and then what are we doing to make her life easier by using web 3 like to me those are the fundamental questions is why is web 3 making her life easier and and and until we have a clear answer then I think a lot of us are just Building Technology for the sake of Building Technology we need the why um and and as far as the friction and the wallets I'm really pleased um at at Solutions like privy and dynamic and web 3 off and uh solutions that allow you to just sign up with an email and then they give you a a private key and it's still self- custody but it doesn't involve the seed phrase things like that it's a double-edged SW and I always talk about this because there's this saying in web 3 by marketing agencies and and people in the space that go oh this is the future of advertising because it's it's the nfts are the new cookie because now I can tar a Big Brand like Nike can Target individuals based on their onchain identity but to me that's total because my onchain identity is segregated across like a million different wallets and so it's really hard to Target ads to people um based on their onchain identity if my unchain identity is totally fragmented so I think that's a problem that needs to be solved one way or another and there needs to be consent uh consent involved because you don't want to just be able to correlate you know your 20 different wallets and infer that it's the same person right there needs to be privacy baked in and consent baked in so I don't know that that was a bit of a ramble but that's yeah I mean I think you mentioned the the the MPC wallets yeah um and uh it's I think I find it really interesting because being a bitcoiner like your your key phrase and even your your actually your private key were something that you had to know about and uh but I but very quickly I discovered that the problem no longer became Key Management it was actually wallet management because you'd end up with everybody that used NPC have a new wallet for that and it like it didn't solve it it it just made that problem get even bigger like I think it's even a bigger problem to have a domain-based wallet that's easy to use but you're still there's a moat around that wallet now you can only use it for that one site exactly how frustrating yep you know I I think a c abstraction kind of helps a little bit with that where you're able to uh have multiple different Keys interact with the same uh set of balances or or or pools uh I I I don't want to say that uh um it's not I don't think it's there yet I think we're still kind of far before we kind of used that UB key or or we kind of uh don't even really see that it's web 3 I think we're not quite there yet uh but it will it will come right by the way do we have a mic for the audience or not really we have anybody wants to ask questions provide valuable insights we do got for you right there we got one Tak her come down to the front I'll hand it to you here oh we got two she's she's next too that's okay testic there we go how far away is is something like token proof from providing ticketing to smaller businesses smaller online communities across different chains so you wanted to throw um some sort of like a rave or some sort of event on an online spatial environment um how far away is token proof from providing those Services i' that's a really good question I'd say that we're already there so we we do online ticketing and online gating as well it's not just IRL um it's online as well and we're totally chain and wallet agnostic I think we're integrated with 45 different blockchains um and so we're and we're always adding more and so we're we're there and we partnered with a lot of different communities we do ticketing for the salana foundation at times um so it's not only evm it's it's across the board um and again we want to collaborate with everybody so why a badge instead of a wristband so like outside it has like if you lose your badge it's an extra $100 so if I put the tech in a wristband it what is the qualm with that is just I can't advertise who I am to others as well do you want me to answer that like because I could just use different code wristbands right so so I think that's a that's a great question and it's um because the bad like integrating those two things into one is actually really important having it on the B like it's a lesson that we learned last year with the we card right having your badge be the actual credential and and remember if you if you had if we had like if you lost a wristband which happens people do you know we would be charging $100 for that because until that's deactivated that's somebody else who can potentially use it right uh yeah so so we've used wristbands before and and coming from the music industry we uh you a lot of people do it too tight and there's a lot of that like support infrastructure of replacing and I think like uh being able to just to take it off when you go to a party and you know like uh if you go to any like especially like music events like EDC or like Coachella you'll have like 500 wristbands and it gets a little crazy and just being at at the end of the night leaving this in my car where I won't forget it um and I don't have the uh opportunity to like you know maybe make it too tight or make it UNC comfortable cuz I've I've done a music festival and on Friday I've know like my arm is red because of like some mishap or or something so I this the flexibility I think but um you know I don't I don't see a real big issue with having it either way yeah I think we could have done it that way but if you didn't bring your badge we'd still have to charge you to bring in a badge and remember that some of the security is phys is like visual like should this bidler be not scanning every single bidler that comes down here only supposed to be certain badges that are allowed down in this area so so it it it makes it a lot more complicated and with this many people you need to make it as as little as Least Complicated as possible there a onetime event a wristband like one day or some a number of hours but for multiple I think and because the badge is so important for more of the of the events you know we we made that choice this time yeah from a phys like a physical security perspective Ive like uh I escorted my friend to grab a badge I had in my backpack and within 3 minutes of me leaving him he was approached twice by security like asking where his badge was so I think from afar you can kind of uh make an assessment uh whereas I think especially here in Denver where it could be 30° and then the next day 70 I think a if you look a lot of people wear long sleeves so I think from that especially when you have uh you know RFK or the the SEC you know you want like for like part of the security plan so thank you yeah thanks any other questions we got one over here hey guys thanks uh so much I really appreciate you mentioned the Wii card um cuz last year we didn't know anything about it either um until after the conference and got it set up trying to use it this year um and then honestly just found out that you can tap these so honestly just found out that you can tap these your badge so it's not so much a question it's more feedback uh just great to obviously let you know entries know what what to do how to do it but I mean you guys are doing a fantastic job it's a huge conference got a lot of moving pieces so um just feedback for the new technology coming in making people aware of it just to obviously utilize it more thank you I think when you gamify it too it makes the interactions better I like I'm going to bring up Defcon again uh you know part of those quests you have to interact with a multiple amount of people and uh you just have a better uh I'm going to say conference but a better uh event experience when you have something of an excuse to approach somebody so we we want to encourage that more I think we're good well we appreciate it guys one more question one more one more quick question um since you brought up gamification I'm curious like what games you yourself dog fed or like went through in this event if you could talk a little bit about that I'm not a big gamer so yeah I mean I used to work at Rockstar Games uh and I think that like ruined my game uh playing ability I just like uh ruined it but uh for me like I just love like the alleyway I like coming down and seeing people just sitting down and playing both the Retro games and then crossing the bridge to web 3 and seeing kind of like how that whole thing has just transition to like uh playability I think like when you are rewarded and you can take your assets off chain like I think that's like like part of the original uh you know uh thesises of ethereum so I uh just having that ability to take your things and and using it across different games is is awesome but by the way that's something that I'm pitching to a few big companies in the space where you know let's say that I have my Bard ape and other yugal laabs Assets in different wallets those wallets are connected with token proof and then they partnered with Activision Blizzard or epic games or whatever and then I'm on my PlayStation on my TV QR code pops up I scan it with the token proof app and now my onchain assets are linked with the game while keeping them safe like I think that that's sort of the portability of identity that I'm that I'm talking about that that we can facilitate um have you have you guys thought about letting people like you know because meetups like if you ever do meetups they're uh half the people don't show up giving some like staking ability like oh you stake 10 bucks and then everybody who doesn't show up that money gets split equ equ evenly between everybody that does show so we already do this but we don't do it with crypto so what we do is refundable deposits and that's sort of a unique capability that we have because we've seen the problem of there's a lot of events in our industry that are free and so people just claim tickets to have optionality and then they don't show up and so what we've done at a good number of events is now you have to pay 50 bucks to reserve your ticket and the moment that you get scanned in then we refund you the 50 bucks so it's a refundable deposit similar to staking it just think how cheap it would be with crypto anytime I see that staking though I know like e Global does that now like when you it's a stake to a and then you get it back and for me that's can be a little bit of like a uh you know a negative but um I I see how that it' be nice if it was rewarded though like you said with between everybody yeah we gave we we had like we 24 24,000 tickets so far is that right so just imagine if you had to stake 100 bucks and now that was a little little dividend an attendance dividend profit sharing we a co-op go for it St your sport okay I think that's all we got we appreciate it and uh and thanks for helping us dog food thank you so much guys really appreciate it thanks [Applause] everybody