Community Building Through Human-First Developer Relations | Crystal Street & Francesco Andreoli

e hello everybody welcome welcome to e Denver and we are in the uh judging day and we're super excited to actually give this talk about resilient Community myself franisco with Crystal and uh yeah we're super excited to be here let's deep down on our topic so welcome every Builder I see in the audience uh different type of peoples from developer from H H Builders MVP Builders is really great maybe some devils but hey let's get it started so what are we talking up today so we want to kind of like speak about what our developer ecosystem why do we need that we'll speak about also roles of aaton and let's redefine what developer relation is all about we want to also create and show you how we can create a safe space for the builders going around and create new ecosystems then we actually speak about some Frameworks like the Builder um hierarchy of needs that we created in the in the back of the days and then we'll speak about and and actually that's why we have Crystal we'll speak about self-awareness resilient leadership but most important why your community building need to have a Purpose Driven Mission and then we open up for Q&A so everybody here H is is open to ask us question but most important we will do a small faret chat to deep down on the topic that we are want to discuss today so but myself I'm a Franchesco I'm part of the Deval team at consensus and I just been uh in communities in developer communities for the past decade and I'm super excited to show a little bit those Frameworks those C learned all the things that I can did it wrong and uh yeah it's just exciting to uh be here so let's speak a little bit about the importance of developer ecosystem I will not ask you guys um why is this is important but is extremely interesting to see so building cool products and cool technology is not enough you want to surround yourself but amazing human beings they are advocating for the space every time the need for a Vibrant Community that knows and loves your Tech is one of the most important factor that there is today and we see also around different ecosystem not just Layer Two ecosystem but anybody that is building developer tooling and products and then very important we need to speak the same language in terms of like Matrix okrs how we can do that we need to build some specific Frameworks on how to align on different developer activation both offline and online so just a quick side not understanding acon is extremely important there are different like uh ways to do that the reality of many aaton is different so you have different ways the important things here to understand is that you need to show how you can engage pre the hackaton but also like activate developers post acon activation there are always some common feedbacks but most important is that you need to learn from each aaton go back to your engineering team with feedbacks and uh learn from that every aaton is a way to grow and support the community fer so we spoke about uh different like topics now I want to Deep dive a little bit on the developer uh uh relation side right we have always two uh natural division around devals today we have the development side that people want to work on different apis documentation and tooling and then you have the relationship side right people that want to create tutorials they want to advocate for the space through all these non-traditional marketing um activation like you know technical meetups developer meetups and it's actually quite good after a lot of time and seeing how organization are uh moving forward today we always see that there are two main categories that you can and this is a suggestion so you can take that as an example but you could also like divide these developer relation teams in developer H evangelism and developer advocacy so now we're coming to this framework so we need to have a true Builder need framework right so we need as we mentioned before a standardization around activation and developer in developer ecosystem how this framework need to be fully tailored on web3 and blockchain developer communities and then this framework today need to be agnostic to products so that also other companies and organization can apply to that and they can speak the same language so without further Ado I hope you guys remember this uh share I mean raise your hand if you remember this MW Okay cool so basically what we did we translated this in the um uh in a in something called Francesco hierarchy builder needs that basically uh is a full dedicated framework to see what are the activation and where this activation stand for and based on this like we put some examples and uh uh I will uh link you guys also with some uh uh deep down but you can see right now on the lowest level you have stuff like Flagship acons access to resources basic education and trading without this being Sol this F you cannot proceed further to the next level example you need to have a solid Evergreen Academy you need to have solid tutorials where people can be feeded and this is extremely important then the second B part and I really like happy that also like crystal is here because she's actually extremely on on this side on this core of this functionality is safety why we need to have a safe space that's why ecosystem meetups you need to show developers that you care about the ecosystem and you can drive a th leader in the ecosystem specific topics and this I want to point it out this is not product specific this is all about topics right for example all the layers uh two out there what do you want to speak about specific architecture design pattern around layers 2 you don't want to speak what you shipped last week and I think this safe space developers care about and are extremely important that you are developing kind of like uh an importance around this then the third part is love and belongings so this is basically like deeping down on more localized activation like smaller acons workshops running like specific ambassador program and specific commute engagement and then I will not I will not uh furthermore but then you have extra things that you may make your developer Community stronger so this is a QR code where we kind of like deep down on the uh hierarchy of needs for developers and I will definitely like share uh more and we will speak more about that so I mention a little bit but we need to transition to a fully web three Community Building not just using web three tooling but also like really Embrace uh having this Festival of company together and showing developers that you care about not just your product but the entire ecosystem what does it mean this co-innovation partnership you want to have Community developer Community uh company doing this with you you want to have a festival of companies uh doing worship with you and then it's all about relationship want to build this relationship not just during hackaton you want to have a strategically post developer activation and I think that's extremely important so you want to engage developer successfully how you want to focus on education curiosity what we mentioned before is you want to avoid traditional marketing tactics but also be honest and be authentic I think this is extremely important why you want to do that this is another framework that we built uh back in the days but this is how to show organization how you can be agnostic but in the same time caring about the ecosystem and how you can drive specific product activation conversion and without this part this part will never be effective and uh and we can share this I don't think actually is like readable that well but you will see on the recording and these are all the local activation and you can te uh take this and uh and use it as uh as you want so tools and documentation is your most valuable assets you want to also feed them with specific uh tutorials on the docks and there is this rule about hello words how long need to take I will not uh go deep down but most important my recommendation is always use hackaton and specific single activation to uh push your engineering team to ship but also to prioritize features in the past like at least two years we were prioritizing feature based on hackaton feedbacks and this feedback loop is super important so you could not do single activation without ever green initiatives so one important part is that you want to run Evergreen initiative similar to what academies are similar to what Evergreen hackaton are I really like the example of what super fluid does with Evergreen aaton is super interesting and is engag continuously developers GRS program so this is extremely important and uh and it's also very interesting to see that even if you're bringing authenticity to the your your ecosystem if you're not successful in Crea these Evergreen programs and showing compassion in what you're doing you will never these developers will never stick out cool and important create this platform to highlight a success of this developer right you want them to show whatever they build in a hack in a developer Community call you want to show them what what they build in different contribution you want to like uh prioritize this uh contribution around the ecosystem and also mostly be supportive of what you are doing this is also like a very interesting fact I will I will uh not uh speak about a lot I want to H actually uh mention a use case that we did in the past and work really well uh with a colleague of mine we starting a uh something called Builder kns these Builder kns were agnostic uh agnostic and ecosystem events with the goal of uh trying to discuss specific uh uh Topics in the ecosystem we started with 437 we started with layer 2 discussion and actually like we literally create a movement and this is actually where the welcome welcome remarks and these are our Tech pillars why we want to stay through to developers so we build a movement and not just we are saying that we build a movement but a lot of like people like were writing hey it's great for example here you can see I don't know if you can see but no promotion No Sa no vises people really uh appreciate the fact that we are we were trying to defend the full right of the audience to get the information as most um agnostic as possible so that they can do a judge a judging after to see what whatever they want to build afterwards so why building a movement is important this was one uh feedback that we had back at uh eth Safari and was very interesting because there were other meetups before right so a lot of like companies speak about uh their products and we actually talk the other approach we actually spoke about a specific topic how you enable like peer-to-peer payments around uh the subaran Africa ecosystem and actually people love that right and in the same time we were speaking about okay this is our layer twos but that's a consequence safety this is something that chrisa will mention about and I will well get fast to the point but long story short is that you need to create a safe space for those developer to discuss criticize and give feedback fully organic to you this is something that we really care about not just because we're saying but this is something that we really really so that on our on our ours right like we organized more than 11 Asia Builder nights and all this had specific feedbacks on why creating verticalized meetups fully agnostic no Shilling was actually creating a safe space for them to um uh give feedbacks so the lesson learn here is that don't over engineer Leverage The Local Community Partners they will able to um advocate for you and for your uh vertical meetups but most important include different ecosystem players and make sure that you are giving a voice to those local uh uh communities cool results I don't want to like speak too much about results but we run like this movement on on Asia last year and we had fully organic like more than 9 million of organic Impressions bunch of people were uh involved in this bunch of people want to be involved in this for 2024 and 2025 and uh it just just crazy what what people are still remember uh why we create this not is what we did is why and how we create this cool now without this compassion this Human Side this will never be possible that's I that's why I welcome Crystal to like take the second parts and uh if you want ask questions thank you Crystal and uh yeah welcome everybody thank you Franchesco which one do I hit just down all right all right here we go you ready to make a hot mess yay okay um cool so I'm Crystal I am the founding member of jodal I have a 500 RT yoga certification also at unlock protocol and um basically I explored the intersections of humanity technology and the mystical with my work and um I was also the former director of community at consensus a photojournalist and I specialize in strategic coms and community building so what makes a community resilient um there's many elements that makes a community resilient some of them are regenerative leadership self-awareness I think that's one of the biggest ones um Mission driven work and safe spaces and beautiful oopsies so organizational models on based on living systems it's moving away from this organization as a rigid uh mechanistic structure and this is basically the evolution of where we're going um you know we're in this time of transition where all of the systems outside of Technology everything we live within is collapsing and finding new ways to regenerate for what we're stepping into and as Community Builders we need to be really hyper aware of this because the people that are in our charge that we creating these safe spaces for need emergent leadership that can morph and adjust to all of the chaos that we're experiencing so this is some kind of complex um theories so they will be on my blog and I'll be talking about these a lot over time in the next few months um but basically we have living system design living system culture and living systems being and um this is a logic of life so as a regenerative leader we move in and out of these different higher um different structures and systems and this is a big one this is way too complex to get into right now but we're talking about old traditional systems which is yesterday's logic which is top- down hierarchical structures where we are right now is over here we're in this phase and our technology is built on biomimicry it is built to mimic emergent systems not structures and top- down hierarchy so the slogan of that old TR system was it's all about the numbers this old school of thought is giving way to something very different which is what excites me it's why I stay in this space is that we're moving toward everything being about relationships and as you build community it is all about relationships at the end of the day this is what we come together to do is move forward in a mission and that is relational it is not based on okrs and metrics and so again like our technology especially those that work in Impact Al spaces and meta crisis This Is Us right here our technology is it moves it's fluid it has to be able to move if we put it into rigid structures it will break and in that breaking the community itself is not safe and it's not good for our developers to learn and be in and I love this quote um if you want to build a ship don't gather people together to collect wood and don't assign the tasks and the work but teach them to long for the immensity of the sea gather people together around a mission move them forward to a big Vision it doesn't matter how you build the ship the ship just has to be able to navigate the tsunami that's coming at us and this is kind of you know all of it right here so as Community Builders we need to Rally around a mission at jod Dow we have a mission to help fix journalism with decentralization sometimes we know what it looks like sometimes we don't but because we're able to move in and out of how we serve our community and what our purpose is at the end of the day we can always come back together for it and we really are just a group of gen xers head held together by far jokes so so the takeaway for individual deell and individual Community Builders for today's talk is um leadership Dynamics and basically um compassion in the code is one of the things that I really want to focus on I want compassion to be baked into our technology so that my niece who is 6 years old when she goes to use her Tech it doesn't extract from her and it doesn't see her as the product that it is fluid and is designed for her generation to navigate the show that we've handed to them so um yeah so the takeaway here for an individual is to work on these three things and there's um a QR code coming that has all this online the big thing is self-awareness it's understanding who you are in any situation and at the end of the day knowing where you stand in this whole ecosystem and having compassion for those that you work with um again patience and silence creating space so that things can come into our thoughts and move our um our missions forward and then empathy I'm going to how much time we got here okay good empathy is another big one and this is what Franchesco you have this in Spades you you are one of the kindest empathetic developers I've ever worked with and engineers and that is The Sweet Spot when you can find the technical mind and someone that has compassion and kindness that is your leader that's the person you want to put forward give them the platform and they can help build the systems we need to move forward um so here's the QR code I'll get out of the way so building a safe container um beautiful oopsies is definitely one um that is my niece's term that I think she got from somewhere and basically it's not being afraid to f giving people permission in your communities to make mistakes we're all human we're going to up everything and give people permission to do that so that before that mistake becomes something you can't maintain you've acknowledged the fact that you need to fix it and that is one of the things that I think we need to embrace more is just being messy humans and deep listening is another really big one when you're in a a community container don't be multitasking don't be distracted if you're having a deep conversation have it be present with it listen don't try to interject your points that deep listening is where you make that human connection and create that safe space and I just love this quote softness is when I surrender to what is and at the same time keep moving forward it is when I surrender to what is without giving up and if I need to let it go I will and in our systems because of the way they are constantly changing we need to be able to let things go and move on to what's coming next even if we don't know what that is and as Romas my um yoga Guru says in the end we're all just walking each other home and that's it all right so now we are going to have a conversation about all this stuff and thank you got questions ask them I would say I would say I want to I want to go back that we have still some time oh the clicker for the I want to go back to the the pyramid right like we were speaking about safe uh uh you know safe spaces like literally the second level around you know why ecosystem matters you know like how we can really like delivery a full like safe space right I think this is also a question that uh pop up a lot like around uh what we discussed like before and uh and yeah I think like one of the best ways is is provide this kind of like um space where you speak about topics and verticals but but anything anything else that you think is relevant I think all of it's relevant um let's see let's break down love and belongingness what do you think about that one like how do you do that in a hacker space how do you create that that container for for that kindness and that loving space to exist for hacker houses hack them or just for any yeah I I think you always need to give like um a direction of what developers can can build like you you need to have like conversion conversion for example bounties and in the same time you want to have like vertical bounties right I think that's why it's I mean this acad is super interesting you have like track bounties and sponsor bounties and and developers can still Target both but in the same time uh create and build deps uh that are uh that are kind of like focus on um on their own narrative right I think that's super important and I think also one one big part like when you're kind of like creating this safe space is that you are uh basically building instruments to um to to kind of like feed and nurture your developer audience right through like uh Ambassador programs to like very specific like product workshops and I think this is also like very important but you can that's what I'm trying to State before in the presentation is that you cannot go down H in the funnel without having having solidify the first two parts maybe like I want to show you the these parts and I give you the words like let me see so I want to show you again the the funnel right that's that's super important yeah I have this so final one right so this is why you know all your strategy need to be driven by something like that right when when I kind of like started this like the idea was that okay how we can divide specific conversion activation and ecosystem and like the the lesson learn is that if you don't solidify this this part of the funnel you were not able to successfully actually have prod conversion uh strategies right and I think that's why going back to the pyramid without having the first two level fully solidified you're you will not be ready to successfully uh convert or like create excitement around your products no that makes no sense and what comes to mind too is in the ambas program um you know we had our workshops our weekly bi-weekly workshops and our basts would come in they got to know us and our Dev rells that would come in and talk about our individual products and they got to actually really explore and get deep into the technology in a very safe container to ask questions and then when we transition into IRL hackathons like in instan and ambassadors were able to actually work with the dev rells they learn from online like seeing them light up like that that that human relationship allow them to then dive deeper into the tech and build beautiful things I feel like that is the the circle there that it's relational again yes and just quick a background like on on this ambassador program so basically the narrative was instead actually like focusing on specific Workshop let's divide on type of contributions as we mentioned before there are different type of contribution you have from uh uh from you know like content creation to like giving webinars to actually creating and uh creating PRS and contributing code right so we said we we went on the opposite side we divided the contribution types and we created the programming based on that and while we did that we create specific tracks that were product focused and also like as as you mentioned like compassion focused and I think this was also very important because this type of uh webinars also gave kind of an adding value compared other activation that you see in the space and the feedback were were great yeah no they loved it and I think we saw it Cent Biddle too like having that organic space that people could just learn comfortably with time and ask questions of some of the leaders in the industry um that allowed them to really dive deep into the technology and learn in that safe space yes so cam beidle I think was extremely useful and also like there are always two ways and this is a recommendation for everybody to listen to this right even if you're doing a very product specific uh Workshop right like and we did that right when we started from scratch build your own metam naap like the The Narrative is build the use case first and how you do that you're building this snap but the most important part for example going back to Cle was we had different like webinars that were from like start from scratch to build your first gaming da so there were this was like the main the why and the how we want to do that and the what was a secondary so how we do that and I think like people are attracted by the the use case first and then you are the one that is in charge like pushing like how you do that through SDK through snaps and I think this is extremely important to to see the difference that's why you know like when we're speaking about the second part around you know safety is that without actually like pushing like a very focused verticalized initiative um you cannot go to the next level and speak a very specific uh uh product conversion initiative and I think that uh that's qu what kind of like we learn we learn during the way and I feel too like the the ecosystem itself is going to begin moving towards being product focused in a way that's competitive it's our product is the best our L2 our protocol is the best we're all doing the same thing this ecosystem is the size of a thimble we need to begin to break out of those confines of it has to be this product or it has to be built this way and let's look at what is the end solution let's use all of the protocols all of the products that fit this together instead of being in competition with one another to be the best let's put it all together and look at the entire ecosystem that way and I think that also translates into leadership I think we need to begin looking at how we lead these groups because it requires a different type of leadership style so that you can be one that can say okay our product might not be appropriate for this use case let's use a competitors you know let's make the this the thing we're building beautiful and let's not Jam whatever we want to jam into it just because we need to or because there's a bounty 100% I think also one one lesson learned here was like uh so we are doing in in general in the ecosystem you see very single activation right and I think one things that kind of the ecosystem teached us is that you need to have ways to um have developer continually uh contributing around the ecosystem an example like when I'm speak when I spoke and mentioned before like the super fluid kind of like Evergreen hackaton is that developers even when are finishing up like you know tomorrow uh the the buildon like okay how I can contribute next you know and the cool thing is that you have ways to do that you know we had I mean we have still like cons Academy like there there are different ways to continuously contribute in the ecosystem through like even grants program and I think every organization should be uh kind of like thoughtful about how you bring individual activation to uh Evergreen a but it's something that is an Eds on the Evergreen activation right because then people like that's why for example in in in the pyramid like you have like you know virtual hackaton every Green activation they are on the on the last one those are extra the most important part here is that you solidify not just being present and at Flagship events but also the access to resources and basic training if you're not getting your hello word in 5 minutes your docks don't comply with like specific uh uh tutorials that you can ship in like less than 30 uh then you're not successful in doing that uh and you cannot go up in the the pyramid activations yeah and that's also where that relationship comes back into play too is that as the devil if you create that Evergreen relationship they can transition through all of these different elements that this person works with your technology then they're always going to come back to you for that trust and safety no matter where you are no matter when it is it could be 5 years from now but they're always going to remember the relationship of how you taught them to learn this thing and they're always going to come back to you in wherever you are in this in this builder needs hierarchy 100% how many of you guys are Deval professional full-time raise your hand I'm just seeing okay cool cool so probably like as you as you know like it's very is a very cross functional work right and while I while I put this framework here is that you probably can cover different ways but in reality there are also like different devils more focused on content different deril more focus on like giving like IRL workshops or like optimizing do docks right so it's very interesting also like what you put out in terms of like organizational structure how also like a team can be can be like this kind of orbit model because at the end of the day you need to kind of like complement each other in in the team right so like also like a thought like I think like you had a question previously on how we are taking not just the pyramid but this funnel to the next level is theun defining not just defining JDS but basically defining specific uh uh roles that are all overlapping with each other you will always have more people more focus on specific uh uh on specific like task and specific goals right and you see that naturally right you cannot force people to do what uh what you know like specific things yeah and that's where you get back to that emerging thing like you might have this vision of what you want people to do but what people want to do is really up to them and in the world we have moved into um this living systems logic is how things are going to function and our leadership has to has to reflect that we need to build in buffers and organic spaces where people can move in and out and as Devils uh you know having headcount with x amount of De rells for any organization might not be a logical thing moving forward it might be easier to have PODS of De rells that have complimentary skill sets one might be good at technical documentation one might have that kind of empathy and then you put them in a pot and you move them in and out of the structures you just plug it into a structure where they need to be so they can move the the mission forward of the structure so as a leader we have to recognize this is the evolution and our technology already has it you know the biomimic is baked into it so we now have to reflect the human side of that living systems logic when when when I saw that for the first time I also I'm ask scal I ask myself a lot like this is very futuristic I always like trying to understand what is the intermediary solution you know like I think you know organization will still function how we know so but how we are bringing like this ecosystem like on on sub teams for example that's that's one answer but anything to add on that how to bring that structure in it's really hard um Harvard and I believe the Wharton business school have a lot of documentation on how to implement these living systems logic it's very difficult because we are in that transition phase from from Trad to emergent so things are going to break and there are very few um organizations in the world that have really figured this out um so I think that our Tech and our ecosystem is going to lead this movement forward into figuring out how do you take the good elements of Trad leadership because there's definitely good structures in there that are nice to have how do you put them into an emergent system and make them resilient enough that they can be tested and pushed pushed up against without completely breaking the entire structure itself yeah I think actually we saw a little bit with with Builder Knights because we always add community members even with sometimes with product if you are successful in building a uh like a developer community that actually cares about each other you will also get different like external contributions you know we had like uh you know like designer or freelancer were coming like volunteering a builder nights or just in random hackaton we know you know like when we are enabling this permission is innovation that you know other developers can build on top of your technology so I think this this is also like a good way to see to see also how to include uh external communities to drive your mission and that's kind of like uh exponential you know I think eth Denver is the best example of this or one of them I mean this is just Community Building at scale and people come in out and and in and out of these systems and like hey I can do this let me just hop in here and volunteer and do this thing and you don't ask permission you just come into the community and you help build and then you come back out of the community when you're done and you re-enter when you need to be back and I feel like this whole event how it's evolved over the years and how like I was able to just slide and be like hey what do you need they're like I need XYZ I'm like great and I think that is a really good example of of of a living systems logic and it's messy that's the beauty of each Den it's a hot mess but that's kind of why we're here you know yeah that's a good point like hot mess right like here there were some lesson learned about uh you know like don't over engineer always don't assume for example that you know you need to do one main activation a year for being successful like like developers really like see and show authenticity doesn't mean that you know a a social media post like need to be perfect a picture need to be perfect and I think this is exactly like the lesson learn here is that uh having uh you know M activation showing your face where you know that there is a strong communities where like when people can contribute at they need support I think that's extremely important and the other big part is including like other ecosystem players tapping in other communities it's also like uh a lesson learned that we saw that it's super interesting to have uh other community members fully like not not just criticizing but giving you feedbacks you really know that those feedbacks are honest feedbacks because they were never be building a snaps before or these kind of things right yeah yeah we saw the the ambassador program too like the day we launched I broke like three things and everybody rolled up in there like this doesn't work this doesn't work I'm like that was me but that allowed us to set a tone where everyone was like oh I broke something and so we actually just made a bug Channel and people be like yeah this needs to be fixed this needs to be fixed so the community got to be empowered in helping us clean the mess up or make the mess together it goes both ways so setting that tone from the very beginning and not over engineering and then as we pivoted a few times as we were going to that program because we saw there were different needs and we had an assumption in our mind ahead of time that we mapped out and we were wrong so we just went ahead let's let's go this way and that is where we get into you know that emergent leadership is you have to be able to Pivot and not force your vision onto a system that says we don't want that we need this so you have to be able to understand what the need is and it goes back to empathy as a devil having that empathy to remove the ego and be like man I got that wrong but you're right let's do what you just said and then lean into it and move forward that's how Community builds sounds good I think we are in the 5 minutes range like any any question from the audience or like anything that we had criticize feedbacks there you are don't give him the mic don't there is no pressure he oh uh that's a great talk I think Crystal you summarized it really well at the end like tying it all together but I'm wondering if you could talk about um more about the failure modes of the traditional system and what those feel like cuz I've definitely experienced them like as a developer at like a a a more structured um hackathon you know like on Facebook campus or something and it's very like um competitive and no one really cares that you're there everyone's just kind of like trying to like build something better than the other person and I maybe you can tell me how that contrasts to uh some of these more just open open-ended more human focused uh events and just the approach o that's a great question um I think with the more human focused events or something that is more emergent you just kind of naturally feel it there's never friction you don't feel alienated or in a a mode of competition I think in a traditional structure I mean at least for me I've never really been in many traditional structures ever so when I step into those I can intuitively feel that this is not the place I'm supposed to be in but if the mission is strong strong enough I'll stick around but it's so for me being an empath it's it's partially intuitive I think Franchesco probably has a very different approach because you come at it more through logic yeah I think one things to say is that in the past like years I always Tred to uh you know push the developer ecosystem further and I never actually like you know concentrate myself on uh um you know kind of like I'm not saying selling or pitching but socializing those developer activation around the company right I think this is one less to learn that I definitely like you know want to do more and also that's why you you know like these Frameworks are exactly the way uh how to do that right from the funneling to the pyramid it's actually helping to speak the same language with everybody and socializing through different teams because you will have different teams thinking about that your Deval team will provide different values that's why also like speaking about that right like one one suggestion structure that when I'm seeing right now is like this will also like kind of like take out the community terms because is extremely General and is perceived as what does community does you have user Community you have developer communities everybody's perceiving community that and with with some framework like that uh it's much easier to to show value and standardize the like the like the language right when you're speaking about both metrics yeah and from The Human Side like looking at that Community container and then being able to recognize um like the different personalities where the friction points might be what is the sentiment always knowing what the pulse of the community is so that you can leave those spaces for those other more technical things to happen it's it's both it's the technical and it's The Human Side they both kind of have to co go together so yes you need to show the safe space if not you will never be successful yeah and I think we have 10 seconds with 10 seconds thank you so much Denver and uh I see you nice time bye thank you fresco