Public Goods are Good

so today we're going to talk about public goods being good so as as the moderator said i'm griff green jumping around the public good space for a long time but we also have so many experts in the ethereum space around the pub about public goods so maybe these three can introduce themselves do you want to start lauren yeah hi i'm lauren lewis i work with giveth um given this a donation platform that's predominantly focused on uh funding public goods via non-profits and other four good projects i'm also actively involved with the token engineering commons which is advancing the field of token engineering and and treating token engineering as a public good and also building infrastructure for daos and for for token engineering and um yeah that's me at giveth i i lead comms and and the economy and i do just a lot of wearing of many hats so public goods is something i'm really passionate about i'm happy to be on this panel wow incredible uh i'm alicia del e i am at e s uh working on a lot on the e s style lately which has a public goods working group and i'm also really involved with get coin and do a public goods a good twitter space every tuesday on twitter so actually we're doing one tomorrow right wait no in a few days in a few days losing cracker days um so yeah i i love to think about public goods and especially funding public goods and i think i'm really excited to get into defining public goods which we could probably just spend the whole panel on but hey eugene hey alicia hi everyone i'm eugene leventhal i'm the head of operations at the smart contract research forum we're a grant funded organization specifically focused on making research more accessible around web 3 and incentivizing researchers to condense their research and start long tail conversations on a forum which is moderated and really focused again on just accelerating web 3 research in a chain agnostic way i'm also really passionate about public goods and my first foray into this world was very much around uh trying to build a crowdfunding platform back in 2016. and i feel like giveth is one of the only projects that has survived since then to today so just feeling really lucky and privileged to be up here and yeah also involved with governance and medigov a little bit as well well eugene you want to start with uh what is public goods to you oh what a lovely question to start with not loaded at all um so yeah in terms of how i see public goods i so i i don't know i'm weird with how i think about some of these things but i like to split it up into public goods in the natural world or public goods that are created within societal structures because and i think a lot of what we're going to get to today is what are the the human created public goods that help societies and humanity advance forward and i like to think of public goods as something that the more people who have access to it the more we are able to accelerate at a faster pace as a humanity as humanity and as a society and the more that it's purely privatized and restricted the more that potential advancement is delayed and slowed down so i know i'll be very much plugging things like science or journalism or certain things that i think the more you create paywall structures around them they inherently slow down humanity's evolution and progress so yeah i'll stop there for now but happy to dig in more wow that's great yeah take it lauren i i love that perspective um i love that perspective of using public goods as the things that are advancing society and i'd love to elaborate on that or add a little bit to that with my definition of public goods um i also think like public goods are also things that we all depend on that we all need that we all benefit from um and my enjoyment of it doesn't dissuade your enjoyment of it or your use of it things like clean water or clean air um or infrastructure roads um open source public goods as well and and all of these different things that it's like i mean they're like foundational things there's like very basic like human needs things like taking care of our health and taking care of our environment and then there's like layers on top of that like tech and science and i think there's like public goods in all of these different tiers that i love this perspective of like are helping humanity advance or helping yeah helping everything advance uh so i guess i start with the traditional economics definition of like uh just non-rival risks and um but i think that so the thing for me is especially with my experience with bitcoin when you're asking the community to define what a public good is i think it's really important to have a definition of public goods that people have a lot of context for that they can relate to and so having like a standard economics definition and then asking you know thousands of people every three months to donate to what they deem a public good in a grants round is like quite a difficult thing to do and so one way that i kind of make it accessible for myself is i kind of came up with a matrix when i go through a grants round and so i think about market failure on one side which kind of relates to the typical free rider problem and how how much market failure a project or initiative might experience and then value to community on the other side and i think that's something that is so obvious in web3 which is we have a lot of projects that add so much value to the community it's so obvious you just need to you know whether you experience it firsthand or whether you um you know you can just observe it it's really straightforward and you know it when you see it that a project or a person or a group is adding value to the community and i think to get too wound up in the standard economics definition is to kind of limit the potential future that we are building towards because we have all of these new primitives you know quadratic voting and all these all these sorts of things and so i think broadening the definition and making it a lot more accessible and also context-based because if we have like i think it all comes down to funding as well which is the problem with public goods is that because we can't um gate them and so they can't be monetized so it's who pays for them but if we have all of these tools now to fund public goods in different ways what is the benefit then of limiting like with a really strict definition what a public good is like what does it look like for public goods to be kind of the base primitive instead of corporations or companies because we have such a broad definition i don't know oh that those are that's some great definitions there and i think i think it's a in the ethereum space especially the word the words public goods are kind of debated in a way in fact it seems like a lot of the public goods are very ethereum ethereum-centric when people are talking about it in this space is and it almost seems like the first uh direction in ethereum for solving the public goods issues that as a society we have are saying hey let's solve it for ethereum first and then bring it out to the rest of the world would you say that this is a good strategy or am i even am i off base here i just asked you jane if he has a hot take and i guess we'll see how hot the takes are but um i mean in my opinion i i think that's a strategy right i think only time will tell what is good and we don't exactly have a counter factual so it's going to be hard to compare which i realize is already an overly academic type answer but i mean from my perspective i think that if we're all being honest with ourselves i think that the only real answer we can give is none of us have any clue what the right answer is and how we get there so we need a very concerted landscape of experimentation and coordination between all the groups and individuals who are deeply passionate about this and one thing that is near and dear to my heart is how do we build these kind of meta-level communication and facilitation layers so we can even know who's trying to fight this fight like who is doing what here because there are a lot of groups that are trying to do this and eat specifically and that makes sense for why like bitcoin and giveth and others are playing in that space but you know the angle i'm coming at it from is much more of like how do we make science more efficient how do we what does open peer review look like and that'll have impact on web 3 and well beyond and i i know i'll have a very hot take once we get to tokenization or not but um you know i think right now as long as we are all building a culture of i'm not right you're like we're all figuring it out together and it's most important for us to be friendly and communicative so that we can build the largest community of people who care about this and then actually from that get empirical evidence towards what genuinely moves things forward and then we can start using terms like right or wrong or something like that but i know for me it just feels like we need the most the widest landscape of focused experimentation possible and right now it feels like the most important thing is just building a healthy community across chains across ecosystems to just make sure we all like each other as humans and then whatever comes of it will be better as a result of that yeah i oh yeah oh yeah okay yeah i totally think that they're all necessary i mean i think i think like this idea of cooperation like cooperating between like the public as we're building for the ethereum space and then also the public goods that we're building for the meat space and like we have a huge opportunity right now to be building tools uh for ethereum public goods and then also taking those and applying them to empower people who are building the public goods that are like foundational bottom layer and i really think that like we need to be coming at it from all angles and like we have so many people are working on so many different projects like working on decentralized science and working on open source public goods and then also working on like helping non-profits become daos so that like we can have clean air and i just think like i mean you know what we have to breathe the air in order to like make use of our computers like we need to eat we need to be healthy and like these like public goods that are like on the base layer are also super important and i think that like but i think that we should keep developing the ethereum public goods as well because then we take these things and we bring them down to the ground because right now the system that we have for funding like publicas on the ground in the meat space is totally flawed with like governments and taxes and donations and there's like no feedback mechanisms and it's like what we're building in the dao space is creating huge feedback and mechanisms between the people who are are building the goods and the people who care about the goods um yeah i love this you know i'm like thinking about tokenization i really think like i mean tokenization is also really amazing and something we have in the dow space is like every token holder uh can have a say in like the way that their public goods is their public goods are being formed and can have a say in like the way that they're being produced and and i think that this is like a huge opportunity as well it's like how can we take ethereum public goods and bring them onto the ground i definitely need to get out and see the world more because i was thinking that with the lens that i have that if thinking about ethereum public goods is absolutely the best way to start thinking about this and i really like the fact that within the ethereum ecosystem i feel like there is a spectrum say i was just telling griff before this that with like bitcoin on one end with grants rounds and optimism on the other end with retroactive public goods funding experiments and i think there's so much opportunity in between that to run you know as you dream was saying like lots of different experiments and that's the opportunity here i i kind of do believe that having a lot of context helps a lot in terms of the tools that we make and the paths that we take and how experimental imaginative and innovative people are with the mechanisms that we're designing and so i think you know it's really nice to walk around in this room and you know and kind of denver more broadly at the moment and to not have to fight to defend your values and to just be able to turn up and say cool we agree we like each other and so now we can talk and i don't have to it's like when you're coming from this place that isn't defensive i think that's a really interesting and like a really you know big pictures big picture play absolutely and i mean one of the things in my mind around just the ethereum ecosystem and i totally agree that that experimentation is so important it's amazing to see the the activity there i mean look at all the people i've assembled here for an eth conference like clearly we have so much energy and momentum that we can't squander here but at the same time one thing that like really disappoints me about the current state of things is why hasn't a single web 3 wallet integrated easy donations to giveth or to get coin right like that seems like such a low-hanging fruit to facilitate more altruism whether it's tokenized or not right again who cares what the current form is we just need to try the experiments and see how we get more things done along those lines so it seems like right within the ethereum ecosystem we probably have every wallet represented here that's major why aren't we making it easier for every individual to contribute to public goods and like that feels like such low-hanging fruit i think that's kind of interesting this idea that even within the ethereum ecosystem there's still this idea of like a public goods project and like a not public goods project and i think as long as there is that distinct distinction and it's not banked in it'll always feel like it does it doesn't really matter right because the point is that we bake it in at the very beginning and it's just how we do things it doesn't feel like oh i got to think about public goods like we got to do this thing that's separate to what we're doing it's like how we exist yeah okay so along those lines uh bitcoin and giveth have both been coming up a lot uh in the in this panel uh because we've been pushed both been pushing public goods message for years but there's a lot of groups in the public good space and i'm wondering if you guys have any favorite unsung heroes that are really pushing the space forward and innovating i have one in mind that i really love to to give shout outs to i don't know if you guys know about rainbow rolls but rainbow rolls is so cool it's so cool those guys are total heroes they started as an nft project kind of making fun of nft projects and the sort of like money hungry thing and they decided to donate the majority of their profits to fund public goods they donated one part to to get get coin matching pool they donated one part to give us to be distributed to projects on giveth and then they donated one part to rip medical debt which like creates like some kind of like 10x factor and then wipes out medical debt for for people all like all throughout the united states and also in other countries and and there was this whole big twitter fiasco i don't know if anyone else has seen it but it was like it was like people were getting really mad it was like it was like they helped wipe out seven million dollars of medical debt via rip medical debt and then when some of the donors to rip medical debt who aren't in the crypto space found out about it they got really upset because they're like nfts are ruining the world ethereum is destroying the environment and they were just super super mad about it and it was like no matter like the conversation evolved from there with with a lot of people showing evidence uh that like that the impacts were not hugely negative like this and but it was just really interesting there was actually even an article on vice that was like uh nft project helps wipe away seven million dollars of medical debt people mad anyway and they're really really unsung heroes in the space i think it's so cool what they're doing and if you meet any of these guys walking around like kyle or chair or xerox joshua they're all just like totally hard open altruistic people who are just trying to make a difference in the world and i think that like the rainbow rolls project is like one really good example of how we can fund public goods in a unique way even using like satirical cute and poopy toilet paper nfts use this chance to plug some desai projects which i think are doing really cool work and i think the the space of decentralizing science what does that mean for research what does that mean for review what does that mean for publishing how do we make all these outputs much more accessible for individuals and just make science much more approachable i think is a really exciting and important area and it's kind of amazing how like at this conference we effectively last minute came together for a little mini summit just around desai and a lot of the projects didn't even know of each other a few weeks ago but there have been people slogging away at this for three four five years and you know it's just amazing to see the amount of people who have put in energy and work into trying to experiment with hey how do we actually conduct different research experiments outside the bounds of universities outside the bounds of governments or corporates and just make all of that public accessible how do we give all of the outputs to the people who might be impacted by it and i think that's that's really great and exciting and i don't know someone like um uh i'm trying to remember if it's appropriate to use moniker real names but tyler from like molecule and vita down like some folks who granted they're pushing in a tokenized direction which i'm sure we'll touch on and you'll hear my hot take on but like there are folks that are doing really interesting work around creating more sustainable models around it there are groups like desai world decide foundation and others and opsai that are trying to build data infrastructure for science you know how can neuroscientists be able to share their data amongst each other to help ml uh training and things like that to come out with better actual scientific tools to then help diagnosis and things along those lines people developing id systems in this space so that scientists can kind of transfer all the work that they're doing ipnfts can we replace the patenting structure and think of ways so that you know if someone's research proves to be really seminal 20 years down the road how do they actually get compensated for that appropriately and not just you know never be rewarded for it which has a lot of parallels to the open source movement overall and you know how many folks have contributed to open source projects made very important pipelines work and then never received a penny and then you know some large tech company monetized billions or trillions of dollars so i get really excited by seeing those kind of infrastructure layer projects that are really trying to reimagine how we can access things like science and journalism is one that i really want to see more around especially journalism in areas of high conflict you know i was born in the soviet union i think everyone has heard at least some things in the news about how putin treats journalists you know like for folks in in hostile environments how can we actually use web3 and privacy preserving tools to fund them to help them to help them preserve their own safety and it's not just web3 but we should catalyze all of this energy that's in this kind of room and conference and pull in all the folks who have been fighting this fight for decades beyond web 3 so we can all kind of make the advancements that we're hoping to yeah that reminds me of this conversation that i had honestly in like june last year and it so struck me about science and innovation and the potential with nfts and ideas and just how greatly humanity at large relies on the people who are tinkering at the edges of like academia who like maybe have the time and the resources to not to go against the grain and like now we have hopefully like mechanisms and primitives to like facilitate them financially and to acknowledge them reputationally as well and so that's really exciting i was going to say the thing that i think about is you know with bitcoin things like the side rounds that have been spun out like the climate round and advocacy round things like that um i think it's really incredible kind of having a bit of insight into get coin knowing that that is just the initiative of like one or two people i think it's so incredible to see the impact that like one person sending a twitter dm saying hey should we do this for this round that's in a couple of weeks and then someone else says oh yeah actually i know someone and then you know within a few weeks a hundred thousand or you know half a million dollars has been mobilized and then it gives all of these other people an opportunity i think that's so incredible because you like really see the impact of a single person um so yeah wow that's so cool so eugene you touched on a lot of really interesting public goods that you would love to see from like advanced more i'm curious from you two specifically if there's any public outside of ethereum public goods any public goods that you'd like to see advanced uh and and integrated into the web 3 web 3 world i think honestly kind of going on this idea of journalism and media but i think content and education are really important and i think just the impact of you know there's so much to learn in web 3 and within the ethereum ecosystem seeing the impact that content whether it's written you know i think like vitalik's blog is probably one of the greatest public goods to this ecosystem maybe the world and um in podcasts and things like that uh you know probably everyone in this room has an experience where they like listen to one podcast episode and they're like actually i got it and now i can like go do this thing um but kind of thinking about that more broadly what does education look like is the public good if we like really start to break things down start from scratch and and start again yeah um listening to eugene talk really makes me i mean something i feel really passionate about as a public good is health care and i think that like the health care system that we have right now is is pretty limited and and like the the research that becomes available is it's i mean it's honestly it's just really driven by by pharmaceutical industry by by money and so it's like oh if something comes out that's like healing something with with herbs or things that don't really make money money for for the pharmaceutical industry it it becomes really challenging for that research to actually reach the public and then you can just see it all over the place it's like we had the the covet pandemic and the things that were being being offered forward are masks and and clean hands um but like what about the other elements of good health you know what about like reducing stress or like or like healthy diet or or exercise and all of these things it's like we we inherently know are good and healthy as people but it's like our healthcare industry isn't actually pushing these things forward or encouraging them and like i myself had have healed many of my physical things that have come up over my life with natural means by by changing and adjusting my diet or using aromatherapy or ayurvedic medicine and and like i just like you know i go and google and i find articles and then i look at like webmd and they're like that's garbage all that stuff is garbage and i'm like man tea tree oil is actually magic you know and it's it's just like i feel like there's such opportunity for for people to be empowered with good health and and vitality and so much of it's just covered up because we don't have like open research that we don't have like decentralized science and and our entire medical industry is really pushing a lot of just either the pill or the knife and that to me is extremely important and just to echo that i mean as someone with like chronic mental health and dietary issues like it's pretty appalling to see sort of the mental health support landscape in this country for the privileged folks and once you step out of that round it's just absolutely abysmal so thinking about how we can actually make things like mental health and education so much more accessible is so exciting to think that you know if we have any primitives or tools or at least the money that's in the space to start new projects that would be amazing and on the education side especially for like the dsa group i want to just like quickly plug dr jocelyn pearl's podcast because she just started one and really being the first person to try to have conversations in a public way around what is decentralizing science mean and what are the implications and i think that's under the super rare podcast but i just wanted to plug her because i thought that was an awesome education effort on that side yeah i think mental health is another really important one and like and something i feel really proud of is in the dao space is like at least the dallas that i'm part of is the emphasis that that we place on like creating a culture that's like open and welcoming and and i even think that like this is a public good in of itself it's like a care culture or a culture of nurturing and it's something that's like so so grossly overlooked like i i have friends who struggled with depression and it's like you go to your doctor and then like here's the pill that's for depression but like what about like actually having a sense of community or a sense of purpose and and all kinds of things that like actually support us from from the ground up and and i i think that like this is a public good that we can all benefit from and is totally untapped potential and like we're making it work in the dow space and i'm like so proud of what what we're building here in the ethereum space like yeah we're building cool open source public because we're building cool tech but at the same time it's like we're caring about each other it's a huge thing i noticed at this conference too like everybody i meet is so warm and welcoming and kind and i meet so many people and they just give me a hug and they make me feel happy to be here and happy to be part of this community it's like we need more of that in the world [Applause] okay so let's get into it eugene came to the back room over here and was like hey guys i think tokenization is a bad idea for public goods and i was blown away i was blown away i couldn't believe it uh let's dive into this is tokenization actually going to help public goods or is it a bad idea yeah so let me fully expand on my hot take i'm not saying tokenization is forever i'm sorry there's just a dog full of costumes it's yay denver right gotta love east denver but um [Music] so in my mind i don't necessarily i don't want to imply that i think tokenization is bad i mean all of this space is looking at different tokenemic models and how can we incentivize people's behavior the specific argument in my hot take that i want to make is that i think that until we understand where there are misaligned incentives that can be fixed by tokenomics i would like to push the bounds of public giving altruism and opt-in taxes i know the word taxes is a dangerous one in this crowd but again it's all opt-in and coming back to the uh you know like wallet integration if every time i sent a meta mask transaction or interacted via my meta mask wallet i had a little prop they're like hey do you want to contribute some funds to giveth or to get coin or to whatever thing i set in there as the thing i want to contribute to let's see how much more money flows to public goods maybe it's nothing and then everyone can tell me i was wrong and we can move on to just the tokenomics side but the specific thing that i personally want to harp on for this space and the projects that i want to am involved with and want to work on are purely altruism-based what is the actual bounds of that like let's get that empirical data not when it's super inconvenient not when it's super out right like if we're all building this ethos of public goods and i love what y'all were saying before of how do we ingrain that culture around the projects and things that we're doing and we can see some of that with like some great dows that have that like mental health welcoming environment as part of it but what happens if we actually build altruism into our tools right like what if every wallet has this thing and let's see how much money came into giveth over the last five years and how much will come in over the next five with just that one minor tech adjustment and so i think that this year is a really important one to think how are we deeply ingraining public goods mentality into the actual products that we build and into the culture that we're trying to create and i think if we don't meaningfully make progress on those i don't see how public goods aren't just going to be some purely privatized future beyond like well beyond the scope of what i think the tokenomics that are reasonable so i that's just the bounds that i want to push but i am very excited to watch the projects like yourselves that are working on these tokenomic models because i think hopefully the outputs of both of these endeavors will give us a much clearer sense of like you know here's how many billions on the planet we can rely on every year just from altruism and here's the pockets that that will never cover where we need very crafty tokenomics to solve those kind of problems so yeah not totally against it i just want to push the balance of what is sort of the limit of public giving and public goods sorry for the straw man it's all good no i i totally i totally respect your opinion and i think that like having often often altruism or having the opportunity to people to give funds to to projects or even just to matching pools is totally valuable but i think something that that tokenization adds as well is the feedback mechanism and i really think like right now we have public goods like our meat space public goods being funded predominantly by governments and also by non-profits and there's tons of spending going on um if anyone saw griff's talk yesterday i think it's like 10.5 trillion dollars 10.5 trillion dollars is like going through this sector and but the problem is that we don't have any way to communicate with our governments and the people that are like the non-profits on the ground don't really have any way to influence like the the mission so hard so so deeply and like there's volunteers there's donors and there's like not strong lines of communication between these teams and so i think like even if we even if we have like um reputation based tokens or like non-transferable tokens or tokens that don't have value having like dow structures around non-profits um we could set up systems where we have like rewards programs for the volunteers so it's like the people that are on the ground who are like who are like dealing with the the homelessness crisis in denver and they're like the people who are actively part of it earn tokens because they're putting in their time and and so it's like impact hours we had something called impact hours at the tc and that's what we did before we launched our token people were earning like non-transferable tokens that later became tokens um so i think like volunteers can get tokens and then like if people wanted to to buy into it and also have a say in it they could buy the tokens or or not maybe they're all just reputation based okay i think there's like two different systems of doing it but but either way whether we have transferable tokens or non-transferable tokens i think like having this tokenized governance structure is like really really valuable for creating feedback between like the work being done and then the people who are contributing to it i was just thinking about your like say donating with a wallet transaction and things like that something that's very just like a personal take because i would always rather make money not from the individual but from like in the web to world or in real life for business or just like the whoever has the deepest pockets and i would just say as an individual in web three we're seeing the numbers seeing like whatever a transaction costs in your wallet when you're approving it is like enough to you know like raise your pulse as it is and then like adding some more onto that it's like a huge hurdle for a lot of people maybe not in this room but for a lot of people using ethereum still and so i really i really like this idea of like say what optimism pvc is doing which is it has a bunch it makes a bunch of money from you know the way that it works and then it takes all of that money and i think you know just giving away you know in this first retreat to funding around a million dollars how many people would it take to generate that million dollars from like the individuals and they could just like go to sleep one day wake up and you know optimism makes a million dollars in sleep and so i'm really excited about i think honestly the values of the founders in web 3 and the space then taking the money that they make from what would otherwise be a commercial or corporate venture and putting that to work rather than relying on say like the individual pockets but yeah absolutely and i think also to just add some more color on that the last thing i want to make the argument of you know who should fund public goods people who live paycheck to page like that's not my argument at all but how many people who are attending this conference are crypto whales who they themselves can fund massive massive things and if we just lower the barrier to entry for the people who are now crypto billionaires right for them to not huddle as much and create a culture around hey literally every time you send a transaction there's something in your face being like are you donating to public goods or like i think that kind of social pressure for the people with the most wealth let's see how far it gets us and i think two interesting examples is you know this conference right i think denver is very much a public good for this space it's amazing for all of us to gather of course it costs money to get here and that's a separate thing but for anyone who has access to get here the fact that you can have access to like vitalik was here kevin like everyone who's uh doing cool stuff in the space or at least at some version is here at some of the eth global events right what happens if we fully tokenize everything around it does that somehow contribute more to the large money spenders getting more pull around how this is done and i genuinely don't know and another thing i know just from the design side uh is we were thinking like we were able to uh the upside group was able to put together six grand to or six and a half thousand dollars to just fund some folks who couldn't make it out here because a lot of the folks building dsi projects are non-monetizing they're totally individually bootstrapped so we launched dsy.eth as just kind of a communal fund so that for the next four events where we try to do big uh desai conversations so that we can fund maybe 50 to 100 people who can't currently afford to get here we can fund them to get there and i don't see how we can like intelligently tokenize that model to just provide travel scholarships for the people building these products who are just bootstrapping it and don't have a way to pay for it and to be part of the conversation so i agree that i want to see corporates and very wealthy people whoever is the most privileged should be taking on this duty of trying to contribute the most and for me like that's where it's how do we lower the the difficulty with which it is for them to contribute uh and if individuals want to throw in a little bit just to add to the culture that's cool but i would like to see most of the money come in from like the 0.

01 percent of wealth holders yeah i think this is the thing with tokens as well which is like we have tokens doesn't mean after it has to replace everything and yeah i was just saying there's 60 seconds left so maybe closing thoughts uh why don't you start lauren closing thoughts on this particular topic um i mean it was just interesting like i think ideally too it's like wouldn't it be nice if wouldn't it be nice if people who had lots of money wanted to fund public goods but i i don't really know if that's really our reality i think people who want to fund public goods want to fund public goods and sometimes it's people who only have a little and sometimes these people who have a lot and like my my interest right now is like how can we create systems that are like everything that everybody wants and and i think like gamification of funding public goods is really really valuable and and even just like aligning this idea of like like if we tokenize non-profits and then people instead of donating and giving away they donate and they get a token and if that nonprofit does well then that token price can go up then it's like it's like we we align this idea of like i would like the token to go to the moon with like oh i actually care about my kids schooling system and it's like so it's like parents at the same time as like having like a comfortable living environment can also contribute to the school system i think it's just like i think it's like how do we bring all these things together and then also take advantage of the feedback mechanisms that we're creating endows with token weighted voting and and and just all the communication we're building it's like so it's like i'm like this is what we're working on it giveth it's really our long-term mission i'm like stoked about it and i feel like it's really really powerful yeah i would just say ditto support giveth get involved in some of the cool community stuff you've been running support other projects if you know if you can't get financially there's more than enough ways to get involved and contribute if you want to chat desai or smart contract research or anything along those lines come find me later um public goods are good we do a twitter space every week me and lani and um i think that the the win here is that what we're doing is better than where we came from and not to wait until we have like a perfect solution i'm big on done is better than perfect and i think that like every step along the way is there's something to learn and i think that the like literally figuring out what a public good is to us in ethereum and web 3 is the gift and so honestly not even to russia and to enjoy like what we're going through now thank you guys so much for this fantastic conversation [Applause]