DAOFest – Zefram Lou, James Duncan & Suji Yan: "Chat Bot DAOs" - Mod: Eva Beylin and Eric Arsenault

are we ready to get started yeah I think the first thing we should do is go around and just give an introduction and then we can hop right in so my name is Eva Balin I currently work for the graph and I've worked on Moloch Dow and also been associated with the Dow sector for about a you know I'm James Duncan former EF Grant's now with the bridge too focused on UX and Dow ops soo-ji and thunder off that mission wonderful product called math Luke and probably heard my speech early this morning about how to use masks to hack hack on Facebook and I've been working the dow area like for like 1/2 year yeah hi I'm Jeff from Lu I work on betoken which is decentralized script or hydrophone I also work on fence axes sorry fantastic 12 which allows you to turn any disc or channel into a Dao my name is Eric I work at Dow stack mainly on Dow design so today we're gonna talk about bots and dowse and how that whole space and just explore some questions and we're gonna try to make it inclusive it's a fairly small group so if you guys have questions just shout it out could I can I just start and ask ok so I remind me what your name Sugie Sugie and what what was the project you said it was a Facebook mass book it's a mask on Facebook it replaced the word face we said mask you know and the logo of fascist from the enemy goes in the shell so it's a little bit mask and Oliver words from the court from JD Salinger yes sir what I would I would I pretend I was doing so I pretend I was like one of deaf-mute from The Catcher in the Rye last chapter yeah but I mean that's ER like personal interests of the like this this ideology and dowse the same it is supplying a browser and also a mobile app that everything you put Facebook Twitter for posts of what tweet will be encrypted into gibberish and then only our friends will see a private key or was your contact without the ID can lead me to decrypt that and early like early this year early this lunar year so which is last week Chinese New Year we partner with make it out to send red packet over Twitter and over Facebook so which means you can not only send encrypted gibberish including image we can also send crypto currency or whatever crypto currency or what is my contract over there and Facebook and also which had yeah actually that's a good point we should probably just make a quick intro sweet yeah cool because that was the first I've actually heard of him aspect so I would love to I did hear about the red packet thing with maker though so that's really cool so what I'm what a bridge but we're kind of like why we're here why we're focused or on the stage for Dow chats we have been really thinking hard about how to get people on board into web 2 for more than a year now we also have been extremely involved and and and engaged in the Dow community specifically meta cartel and the Moloch communities I've also have a lot of friends and like been deeply I don't know involved with a Genesis Dow as well as Aragon etc and so for from our perspective we've been thinking about how to bring the tech to existing platforms that have communities already exist like that that already active and so the first iteration and and and what we kind of think about here is Dow ops so rather than where DevOps you're able to spin up applications that are resistant to bandwidth constraints with Dow ops you're able to spin up dows into operating systems for dowse to reduce human coordination costs as well as friction for the users and the members of these dials to actually interact with them and so the first pilot project that we did was a signal Dow which is a Moloch contract in a telegram on Kovan and had some really like strong results about how that increases participation for the down members so I think the one really interesting thread between all of you is that you've each chosen a different web to social channel to combine dows or smart contracts with you with telegram Facebook and fantastic twelve did discord right so each of you could maybe talk about why you've prioritized that web to integration with Dow's versus just simply creating let's say a Dow social network already on aetherium yeah so the reason I've made contact is twelve integrate with discord is that I see a lot of crypto community is on disk word and I felt that that on a lot of existing dowels are not really integrated with a social layer like for instance Aragon like Aragon Dallas like they don't really have like on their native interfaces really know like socialization involved so this course seem like a reasonable choice like the other candidates for telegram and slack and telegram doesn't have channels slack is kind of trash so yeah discord is cool you know so that's why I started and I see yeah I think when dows are really no sorry a slightly other breath um when like I think a lot of like impasse now experiments a lot of what has gone wrong is that there is no deep integration like between the dowel like smart contract and the operations and you know what's actually going on between the people so fantastic twelve is kind of trying to bring those really close together and make them almost indistinguishable like for instance in fantastic 12 like to do anything in the Dow is just like a bot command and yeah I think that's pretty cool and then oh right so why why the social interfaces why that's specific oh the main thing is it's much easier to bring people to existing or bring tech to people on existing platforms and it is to bring people to new platforms so as much as we can reduce the amount of tech that they have to upload and install into their phone and also form the habit of going to that new interface and instead build the functionality into their existing interfaces I think that's that's really the goal and we yeah we started with telegram because it has a nice API for bot interactions to provide like buttons like that's that's literally pretty much the main thing it has buttons to select to hit commands yeah I mean I agree with the point then you know you can let people migrate it's super hard to let people migrate and I was a generalist cover politics and you know how tech technology change international relationship and politics in a vaccine 2015 and I did some starting about Microsoft in 90s and Windows is Windows Mac Mac Windows is an evil suffered back then and as I say this morning you know Microsoft and Bill Gates is the you know evoking that time like the market up or right now but I mean it's not Linux beat him app it's the Netscape Navigator if we remember it you know they have large lawsuit and DOJ v Microsoft because when you open a new word inside a closed word you guys should give them opportunity to quit and for the case of Microsoft you give the user opportunity to go to another alternative operating system inside the windows that is the browser and everyone can build an app which is what site back in night is using the browser technology and now I think the same thing happens to the apps happen to Tao so I guess well it will probably it will be like the same thing like me back in 90s so we don't we don't want to build another app for socio and another social network for some reason I guess even though we tried I mean I know someone is trying like see this and other great projects they're trying I guess even they they tried so hard the best outcome for them is still something very geeky something very cool like Linux maybe like something move on to Ubuntu can be a good you know similar layer like status casillases a layer on top of a Syrian so I guess that's the that's their job and since they're already doing their job we should do something to different like we should do the browser we should do the connector the bridge so I guess I pretty much agree with your point but why Facebook and Twitter we start with Facebook first because I guess Facebook one won't open up an API I know that this Court has API rocket chat as API and telegram has a perfect API and I guess these are all our lines Facebook they won't open up an API they are like suing companies you know doing sir party applications so I guess we start there and we prove that they can't shut us down then all developers we're gonna follow and if you want to trade off and want to do some centralized staff you can use API of telegram or Twitter of other social networks because they are like more friendly so we tried and for like spend like one more than one year on that and then we launched in to ride the force it's a good timing last year and in august i don't remember exact date in August actually Facebook found out I don't know why bad means effect after you find out and if you try to use messenger Instagram or Facebook app try to pose mass will calm it's a trap and you can post that URL so we don't care cuz we don't use the URL for a way to to just you know to spread a war we can you can we can encrypt a message into a picture into a mamey into a chip into a emoji stuff so I guess that's why we want to try it laptop hard because I know there are other people trying the api's work already yeah hello okay so so let's assume because it's true that that it's really hard to move people from what to to web 3 I think everybody that's kind of a common thread and assume that we're gonna bring web three tools to Facebook and Twitter and we're allowed gonna allow them to launch dows and we're gonna allow them to raise funds and use D 5 from web - what does that mean for like building a decentralized Facebook or a decentralized Twitter like is that achievable can we actually get there if we just move to those platforms um I think that's going to be incredibly difficult but well the hope is that it will happen someday yeah migrating someone from one social network to another is really difficult like we know that but if you look at like other like kind of newer web to social platforms you know tick-tock snapchat etc um they also started with like no existing connections with like the big social networks of the day so I think it's it's possible it's doable but I think for anyone who's trying to start this kind of new decentralized social network they really have to well provide utility to users beyond just being decentralized or autonomous or whatever like the user has to be able to feel the difference like they have to be able to like just and like if someone asks them why they switched to like a decentralized social platform they have to be able to give like an answer in one sentence and I don't think we have that kind of product yet yeah I guess it's um if you want to do how new Facebook descent rise is kind of impossible for the reason that you can't scale to the to the never know 2020 billion or you know two billion people on the same software and same platform but if you take Facebook or taking exact same web to as a back-end that's doable which which I mean what I mean it's like even don't consider ipfs they can handle two billion people as well you know just use them for temporary storage for them but what we do is every single post on Facebook and Twitter it's encrypted but still it still remains on Facebook but you have the cash you have to whatever I put in the peer-to-peer database and put to ipfs or whatever platform and you know BitTorrent or improve that even without the centralized servers they only have the tracker server that's a small server they already have you know two billion people on boarding in the early days of the internet right so I guess if you if you if you admit that you know they can never go away you just use them as a back-end as their interface then probably you can do that and for for for bootstrapping a new social network the large difference from right now in 2012/2013 that is stay from the tiptoe and snapchat is from what I know because my wife she's a lawyer you know tik-tok is now having lawsuit with a lot of social media especially we shot in China that the user part API is to login and we tried to suing them stealing user data it's not about which I really care about user data it's like okay use my social network to use the surf part AOL to logging and I want to see you I want to shut you down and I guess it would pretty much the same thing the only thing we can rely on right now for a new social network is either email or cell phone number or you know keep keep hair like the ID now all these three works well especially and now right now is more diverse word and I don't expect you know you can do that like in 2012-2013 so against the chance of starting a new complete new social network is also over but for the for the reason people want to use a new social network or different you know decentralized social network on top of Facebook is quite you know understandable when we do the make it out you know campaign about the Chinese New Year red packet I just got a friend in Middle East like hey guys just go to your Twitter and claim the red packet you're on a sanction list but you can now have the US dollar right so I mean that's a small use case and only a few people is affected by the sanction list but why I mean why I've considered it for many years why we chat and you know other social network have strong kyc they can do the red packet they can do the money transfer its major because of the law enforcement regulatory right and even for Facebook if they want to do something not even that decentralized something like liberace will have a huge problem so I guess they won't do that and I also see that you know Jetta is endorsing the tipping that's a tipping plug-in for the for Bitcoin like network so I guess even full payment on Twitter or even for the cross-border payment on Twitter and Facebook there's no way they can do it alone there has to be a third party purely centrist on top of that help them do it and for forming a dhow like what if I want to create a Facebook group and I'll add all my friends like foreigner friends in a group and we came out with a diode that have some stable coin look at this my contract and if you do something good we want to give you some you know compensate ordination in people in the Tao how do you do that without the disinterest layer so I guess if we solve the problem of the user experience people well use that I mean I guess another speaker smacked chin they already say that adult industry is also huge and also I want to point out that okay are those industry if you point some if you post something like an image like a jiff that you won't charge people on Twitter that is impossible right now but without help is possible I don't want to do that right now but I'm saying that if you open that new gate new word every developers you can just give up something interesting on top of the existing platform and for now I don't think they will stop us and I was thing I think they will be a large find afterwards after another five years I think that inventing a decentralized Facebook the main piece of that is allow like Facebook's a walled garden that's where it makes its money and the main thing I'd decentralized Facebook is having users be able to control their data and maybe probably profit from their own data or sivir or word from their own data the way that I think about that is it will take a long time because it's an educational process Facebook's moat is its network and people come to applications I mean they come to Facebook because of the network there's if there's billions of people on one application and one platform it's going to be really hard for to convince most of those people 98% of them to go to something else until all of their friends are also in that other thing the way that I think about a decentralized social network though and the thing that I think like what Dow ops will aspire to be is a focal point that provides a unique identity between the number of the different networks where you can log in to your Facebook Twitter telegram and have specific chat channels that then you can access the same account on the backend and with that account you can be connected to this specific dau community and and from there it's you know you could you could have these interfaces that provide access to that actually decentralized piece of the social application that you're that you're interested in utilizing so I want to switch gears a little and get out of the box of dows as organizations so and think about it more as any decentralized community and we actually have a few of these that exists today in web 2 that use some kind of token you know things like tik-tok twitch you can you know earn rewards with tokens and whatnot but how do you guys see dows or this decentralized governance movement as different than existing communities online the main thing for me is that it's just empowering communities so now they aren't only transferring data and memes and like chatting but now they're also able to coordinate around resources so it's giving resources to communities and empowering them now to be able to control those resources in a in a like leveraging the wisdom of the crowd essentially but it's it's really about digital resources from my perspective I guess as you say like red they also have their own like token like staff quit it and red is being famous for its anonymous and you know it's quite open social network but they have to keep living my so take they take investor money and that will force them to try to seek profit even though they probably don't you use a bad way I mean I guess what thou is like if you want to have some special functionality on Facebook and Twitter and something you know on the web straight up on web to platform like telegram you can just write about yourself and you form Dow and that Dow actually all the members they're kind of shareholders or they earn some reputation from that and if I do a third party you know functionality for Twitter like if I write a row third party tuner app I won't get anything from Twitter and won't even get donation from the open source community because they don't really care about that thing right and but I mean let's say master best time is to decentralized Twitter to the like software if you really wrote wrote a pretty good a client for master they were like have some large sink thank you and I guess the only thing they need probably is a towel but probably they don't I just held I just think the major difference is like the traditional in tech giants or in social apps once they take the investors money and they didn't figure out how to balance it they're they're being struggling about the the difference between users interest and their shareholders interest and and for for telegram already that you can just mute it down upon it they're open and they are they open to you that you do it and you were to shareholder affair down yeah for me the biggest Vantage of dowse compared to like say tick tock or stuff like that is it's inter to interoperate with other applications on the etherium networks specifically decentralized finance so if you just want to use dowels for like just a friend group or whatever I don't think that's going to be a very convincing use case I think the most of the convincing use case is to use dowels to form on completely online businesses and those businesses can you know interact with existing defy products you know they could trade on you know swap take loans from compound etc and those you can like it's impossible to do with like Reddit coin or whatever the other thing is that um it's like for the business environment for an economy to thrive you really need like a free environment where you know there's as little regulation as possible and if there and provides that like for a doubt like you can do whatever you want on the etherium network lee no one's gonna come and knock on your door and say hey don't do that with my dap you know so yeah I kind of foresee a future maybe in ten years maybe 15 years we're like there's going to be like hundreds maybe thousands of completely remote crypto native businesses running through dau frameworks and they're going to be do some wonderful things with defying for both of yous Everyman's siju I know that James you're working on BOTS with with a bridge but I'm not aware that you guys are working on BOTS what are your thoughts on bots in in the theorems base and to improve the user experience and James feel free to chime in as well but yeah so fantastic twelve is like the front end is basically at this court bot right yeah that answer your question um yeah for Fantastic twelve like the biggest I think UX challenge is just kind of how clunky it is because it's not like directly integrated with this Court itself so like for instance if you want to like submit a transaction you kind of have to click on the link that a bot gives you and it takes you out to a browser where you can connect to meta mask or formatic stuff like that and that's kind of clunky it kind of works the other thing for BOTS is like it's basically command line interface like you don't really want like normal users to learn to use command line interfaces right I guess the situation is better with lake telegram because you have actual buttons to use for disk or it's just command line last bit of a challenge and it kind of had to really explain well to users like how everything works and yeah yeah I guess we don't use but right now but it's doable and we have plans I'm doing that but I mean about is separate from the descent rights layer which means like you guys do but don't how Danny I said about definitely run on a server or you know some kind of database but you know it's just an account on Facebook on Twitter or maybe desk or telegram so well how we handle the user experience problem is we actually you know Twitter can have this third-party application and we tried we try to support one third party application called Twitter Oh Twi dr Android they are also kind of got some fans because they also support master within the same app then we also try to support either Twitter sir party application I guess not until Jack Dorsey announced the scene about the blue sky about this Android Twitter in in last year or we are the only ones doing that even though we don't really every sellout because I think that's very important because I think you know either Twitter will completely close out the API or they were probably open app like messed up or a middle you know in somewhere in the middle no matter what is situation you can use a pad for interface and you can use Sur party application for better user experience and you can integrate the meta mask or a serum wallet inside third party application that's that's how we did that on the mobile on the mobile phone now the Facebook one they don't have any API so we pretend it's a browser and we inject JavaScript code in for Twitter it's better so I guess for the part in the web stray in the web - it can be a good bridge but I guess I mean it really depends on the network and on the social network it's elf and I am itself to get better using user experience yeah because we have less trouble with Twitter these days after the announcement they're stopping dealing with the API hacking province Unicode you know some some tutors throughout the API they actually completely delete or ads now today is fine with that before the announcement I guess they're super pissed off when it does that so I guess there's a lot of things you can do especially you know try to try to we try to learn all the third party API is for all social networks yeah yeah I'm excited about viral Twitter BOTS it's the next thing aside from social networks and BOTS and even encrypted messages what do you guys think are the missing tools to actually proliferate dows either to web to organizations like a Facebook or just to get non crypto devs thinking about how they can use douse or like underlying mechanisms so what toolkits are missing at the at this moment the toolkit for the developers or for the users that want to create these like systems or maybe both okay the way that that we've been thinking about it is is so we have a a leg tool kit for developers that makes it really easy to kind of build applications and and general applications but specifically we've been building BOTS thus far we want to create flows that are standardized for anyone to kind of come in and interact with a dhow because there's only a couple sort of patterns that you need in order to communicate effectively with these misdoubt tech it's mainly push notifications for proposals links that you can quickly access the voting interface for those proposals and then like token permission chat rooms that's kind of the main pieces that I see as being necessary and so the platform that we are we are going to continue building out and creating is something that has these templatized flows that you can then insert api's and contract keys into the into the flow to create a unique system for your for your dau or your community in that way it's it's more interoperable and that that's kind of like the toolkit both for that dau admin and then if you want to get a little dirty or you can get underneath and like play with the actual like low code environment that we're building this in yeah I guess it's not really about but it's really about how to deal with this like the censorship with the store because you know even brave like they had like I guess I'm using right now and our prior has linked they claim they have a hundred million user they're using the Chrome extension store and crumb for now Google for now don't have any problem with scrotal people right but as we remembered and two months ago made a mess had the issue with the Google Play Store and I guess even people in the crypto who care about the autonomous who care about the you know the free software don't really use free chart that you don't don't really use the F join and there's no way on the iOS you know back in several years ago there's something called workflow it says that by that time it's third-party app ID as they emerge by app house so I guess there's no way to deal with it on the iOS I'm pretty worried that you know you can have a super good hack on the telegram app and then you can't agree or this year good bit part on it then telecom is fine with that you don't really care about it and all the fans of the crypto word is really liking it and the Apple Saint now because you're super super cool you know is using this is too good to be true and then I mean you've got both API and soon you know if I'm Amazon I care about telegram and neck ascent or under here sell digital in the books without using the Inca purchase which Apple takes 30% of the cat so I can I can predict this thing will be happen in probably five years so now I think they just don't care because the user experience is really sucks but we already did some experience that we have the we have about Amazon that help you to buy a book use our credit card and you pay me some died rock a child on telegram whatever and we just should actually buy the book and send it to your you know mailbox or send it to your telegram account and you can read a PDF or read the e-book there and that is this is not allowed based on the you know User Agreement and he OS for App Store for a chrome store for Google pay I guess once the user experience is better whether it's more user this is a huge problem yeah I guess so more people build involved more people building easy use but it's kind of jeopardized a serum worth the entry point between the traditional world and the cerium you know crypto ward yeah that's thing I'm worried about yeah um on the crypto developer side I don't think there's any important missing piece like like if it was like two years ago then you could say that we don't really have like dude developer tools for like debugging and stuff but today like we I think we have like really good tools for that like with sorry Riddler don't dad like that let's that's like a truffle replacement lets you like debug your smart contracts really easily there's also tenderly that lets you like debug your transactions to see what's wrong I think what's really missing or two things like one is for one is a really good on boarding flow for like just completely new users to the crypto world you know getting their first eath something like that we're we definitely made progress with tools like formatic Portas etc but i don't think they're good enough yet for just onboarding someone who just you know some random person off the street hey join my like sign up for fruit matically they'd be like why you know and that kind of goes to my second point like there is really no huge incentive for just a normal person to be on board akin to this crypto world like you know sure like we have decentralized finance which is you know a bunch of cool stuff you can like lend out your die to earn like pretty good interest but other than that like there's like because of how much friction still exists on in the boarding flows um for normal users they don't really see much of a point to on board and I think that's a huge problem all right who here is familiar with signal Dow or tried it okay pretty cool I had a question so I guess this is just an observation I've had from from using it how do you how are you going to deal with kind of the attention of people with BOTS because I find that you know just using signal no Dow I mean it kind of requires your attention and and like how do you deal with that if there's like five six different dows is it scalable I think that's a really good question and because at scale you'd have a signal Dow a Moloch Dow add to been a cartel down whatever Dow is you're a part of and then you have this whole like telegram is already noisy and then you have bots that are on top of that spitting noise at you in another whole nother level of way and so I that's a really good question and the solution that I would definitely emerge as things continue developing for awhile I imagine it'll you just have to kind of like go through the noise and you have to know what to listen to whether it's your telegram or maybe your following so one thing you could do is we can push notifications through Twitter and then you could also follow that Twitter through your SMS and if you receive a notification that hey you're this proposal has happened through your SMS because it got pushed through Twitter that might be less noisy because I'm not I'm not getting spammed as much on on my phone my text message as I am on telegram for instance and so I mean finding those kinds of workarounds could be a solution to reducing that noise I'd love to switch gears a little and dive in more to the specific use cases you guys are focusing on with dows and maybe start with Zefram because yours is sort of the farthest removed from this group and so for anyone it doesn't know is Ephram is working on betoken fund just essentially a hedge fund ow and I'd love for you to talk more about that and how you've seen it grow or the community evolved versus other dowels like a meta cartel or Moloch that are much more community focused and most people actually know each other yeah so first a bit of introduction to betoken betoken is in a word of crypto hedge fund what's cool about is one it's open to anyone anyone could onboard as a fund manager and anyone could on board as an investor the other cool thing is that we use a meritocratic system to redistribute control over the fund across the manager so for instance if you're you perform really good in the past few months and you would really quickly accrue control over the betoken funds Treasury and you'll be able to use more money to invest in various crypto currencies and crypto derivatives and to compare the community building with say meta cartel and Moloch let me think I guess the thing I'd like to focus on is like a lot of the Dow's we now know of Medicare tomalak it's a lot of people who are in this room and we either know each other and we don't even necessarily need the dough but your use case is one where actually everyone's quite anonymous and they might not even be part of their own communities yeah so what we're seeing like we've spent a lot of effort on actually trying to build up this community both for our managers and for Investor investors we mainly use telegram to do that and what we're seeing is that our managers are really you know talking to each other about their experiences and you know just giving each other help and I think that the main reason for this is how the token is set up like in instead of something like this said social trader adapt where each where each person is their own managers their own fund and betoken you have all these different managers managing a single fund so that they have like a common purpose and that's kind of the Center for why they would want to wire community members we want to collaborate with each other and help each other yeah I would say that the total betoken community is fairly similar actually to Medicare town Mohawk communities like even though like they don't really know each other like you know you kind of know someone he liked some random guy who you've chatted with on telegram or Twitter you know I kind of know them by their like icon and like online name and I'm I don't think that um the anonymity part is really a hindering the community building and the questions about the dynamics between a community that knows its each other versus like an anonymous doubt that's just based online right I think it's interesting I don't know because I haven't experienced many Adana the style communities I'm actually really curious about how the original Dow kind of came and like condensed as a community like to what extend that Dow were a collective of individuals who knew each other face-to-face or online versus heard about it and bought into the token sale because that would have been a like more anonymous at least then like some of the smaller communities that they see today yeah and like do you think you need face-to-face interaction for these communities to thrive I think I don't know about face-to-face interaction but communication is is the key Dow's aren't a technical problem they're a human coordination problem and I do think that chat rooms and some sort of synchronous and asynchronous communication methods for these days too state their purpose etc is is critical yeah it kind of sounds like this idea of decentralized governance like our vision of uniting these world of strangers isn't the reality because to your point Zefram like when people join a community they do end up coming together somehow and so this like abstracted layer of smart contracts isn't going to keep people from coordinating on these other off chain platforms to actually make more like less anonymous communities basically yeah so we have like should we take some questions from the audience wait I want a quick one okay maybe in like two sentences or maybe three just keep it really short what do you imagine the future looks like like five years from now and in like BOTS and dows and communities Facebook um for me it's just crypto based community and businesses that that is the future this crypto businesses interacting with Defy interacting with each other and selling their products directly through crypto based platforms I think everyone can use the web 3 feature within the current web the weathers Facebook Twitter diagram whatever I think that's definitely achievable in five years I'm imagining influencer nation-states I think that the line is actually going to blur I think like we have to use these words to define mechanisms because we're still building things and naturally we need nomenclature but I think that a Dow is just going to be some kind of decentralized voting feature of every single application like soo-ji like you mentioned like Excel spreadsheets if we could start making actual decisions directly from the Excel spreadsheet instead of sending the model through email to then do a conference call like that would solve so many problems so that's that's my vision ultimately for the Dow's do you want to take some questions yeah ya know I think that's super possible especially if like it I like it depends on how like the the risk involved with the vote if the vote is going to allocate a million dollars to something that's a pretty hefty decision and if you're a part of that decision then you should be really pretty well informed about it at the same time if you're voting on that with like three people then you should be extremely important about that if you're if you're with if you're voting on that with like ten thousand or a million people then it's it's sort of the wisdom of the crowd then and I don't know if you like was studying the RISM of the crowd because I was like a little skeptical that it's actually effective but if you if you get a jar of jellybeans and we asked everyone at eath Denver how many jellybeans are in this are in this jar the number will come to like a percent of accuracy it will be it will be it will be extremely accurate if you aggregate the average number of all the guesses while there will be extreme outliers on both ends so I think if you leverage those know the crowd for large organizations then quick voting on whatever risk profile could be okay another thing to that point that we didn't really touch much upon is the culture of a dowel and I think that culture plays a huge role in building these communities and I actually think that the the long successful communities that are gonna be staying around are the ones with strong culture because of that scaling problem you know if you scale a doubt to I mean even youth Denver right that this entire event is gonna be a dhow we're gonna be voting on it there's no culture so that's when you risk actually doing things that are bad is if there's no culture any other questions I would actually just I have a quick thought because I think even you see today that people who are involved in doubts are those go-get-'em proactive people but voting participation is still extremely low I guess next thing we're probably gonna do besides sending crypto over twitter is like - what was you create a Facebook group we check we're all to the Gugliotta my fave form format ow like we assign every people at the idea maybe it's not on Syria there's definitely a compatible key pair then use like emoji to vote whatever and that's that's doable I think that's super tidy so super easy to use but I mean ask the same as the previous question said I mean I guess if you come to like decision about million dollar found my better is more difficult to for entry but for now I mean the problem is there's enough wealth in the in the industry there's enough people who have a lot of money but there's nothing that real general public users like people who care about the daily life but don't care about the returns after like my money investment there's lack of these people I guess is super important to make it easy and lazy even though it won't be able to make large cessation but I mean there's not so many large decisions to make in your life yeah so I guess that's my answer yeah um I think you're gonna really like fantastic talk because it was built upon the assumption that like if you have Ladell with like a hundred or a thousand people like people are just not going to participate or vote so as the name suggests fantastic twelve kind of has this cap on the maximum member you can have endow which is full of course you can just that but like the whole system is designed around like just a small group of maybe friends to collaborate through a smart contract and I think when you just have a smaller group that you should be issue of low participation kind of would evaporate because you know you're kind of friends you have that you you would have this social layer to kind of well I guess it's just peer pressure but yeah like people are just gonna participate more in the smaller and smaller group I'd also add that you know the biggest doubt that we're all part of is the democratic process and making it easier to vote is definitely something we should be doing even outside of blockchains at the same time we don't want people voting that have no idea about what's going on and so in the context of dows about web three topics like managing a protocol we probably don't want to make it so easy that someone random can vote but as dowels become more proliferated in basic activities then obviously we want more people to participate so it's definitely more of a timing and a circumstance question and the other thing I'd add is that simplifying the number of actions that people take has been a step that we've seen in Dow stack so both at the social consensus culture level where you say hey we're only doing this and then you enforce it like you try I mean mehta cartel you basically can submit a grant proposal or a new application we've seen Dowson on downstack where it's basically completely open and it makes it way more complex to interact with because there's just too many nobody really knows what to do so like limiting the number of actions and then also you know doing that through social consensus or at the protocol level okay cool thank you this [Applause]