DAOs Are Dead. Or Are They? | Cameron Browne - Darien Advisors, Zack Guzman - Trustless Media

M here good we're good mic test all right welcome to a panel at e 202 before we are here for Dows are dead are they I'm tus from lexow welcome happy to have you join us and happy to have a nice panel here please if you guys will from me to the left introduce yourselves and a little bit about your Dow history and if the Dows you're in are dead howdy I'm Hank holiday I'm the meta founder of a uh Collective called quum one we're a member owned and managed entrepreneurship Collective we incubate startups and do a lot of like service based entrepreneurship in emerging technical areas so web 3 blockchain AI um lots of other spots so we're very much not a dow uh but I I used to say we are uh like a Proto da but now I say we're more Dow adjacent um meaning that like I think we kind of operate with a lot of the principles of a DA I think by you know by the by the purest definition of a DA we're definitely definitely not one but um I I am definitely an advocate for the broader definition like the more expansive definition of dowo um and I think that the concepts behind Dows uh kind of software mediated engagement um Cooperative governance uh and kind of like internet scale uh I think those things have a lot of value to add far beyond kind kind of the the the web 3 space the blockchain space and so um so yeah I guess that's I don't Dows will never die but um but also I think there's there's a lot more value for the spirit and uh technology and and kind of principles behind Dows to add value far beyond that space so hello uh my name is Angelo alicio I'm one of the founders and uh kind of instigators of build Republic uh we're a global Cooper operative of startup cities uh in Dow speak I guess we're basically a a dow of dows uh because we are creating onchain digital twins of uh of uh of cities basically so Bill Denver is one of the Dows we have 58 cities on six continents and if uh Dows are dead that's very much news to me I think there's um uh uh you know for a long time I kind of view Dows uh even without the a is kind of turbocharge cooperatives uh and then now when you add in you know unique structures like the LCA which allows you to get risk Capital into the Cooperative uh the a for AI which is obviously extremely relevant right now which uh can even you know accelerate a lot of the objectives that you know Dows and you know more broadly I guess Cooperative philosophies are trying to achieve so yeah Dows are very much alive very much moving fast and and uh really exciting I would agree with that 100% And I guess that's why we're here yeah uh I'm Zach Usman the founder of trustless Media and coinage media we are a mix of Kickstarter meets patreon meets verifiable onchain Co ownership for media entities that creators can cone with their fans so coinage is one of the fastest growing web 3 media outlets and to your point I think it just use turbocharge we're essentially a dow Co-op that turbocharges the network effects that come from a Creator and their fans building together breaking down the wall in web 3 media to build whatever you want to build uh in the media space so that's quag that's trustless and I'm stoked to be up here with you guys my name is Cameron Brown uh I'm a Tax Advisor partner Daren advisers we do a lot of work with like navigating what is it Dow and then okay what's the internal the internal revenue Serv recognized so we I think we saw an era of like people taking a hammer seeing everything as nails but we we all have at the tax per side it's like partnership Corp Foundation no more so I'm excited to be here today and chat with you guys yeah well thank you very much and happy to have you here again I guess my first question on our Dow's dead is really are there Dows that are out there that are in some zombie or Proto form that are dying I mean if the question is really maybe over the bear if we lived through the bear and some Dows didn't if there are Dows that are in a zombie form are they recoverable is it worth recovering them you know uh well I guess I don't know why Dows get connotated with death like it's a kind of a strong connotation in traditional startups it's just like it failed and that's totally okay and we all know that startups fail and that's again that's what informs the information for whether it be the next startup or hey this idea or Market probably doesn't work so uh do Dows fail yes uh absolutely uh should they fail yes absolutely um these are New Primitives it it generates a ton of new insights about um about ways to build products which have never been done before so the rate of experimentation is directly correlated to the frequency of death or more um gently failure uh and I think we can all you know still learn from those absolutely so um I think it's just because sometimes the token's attached to it that you can look at it a coin market cap and be like oh well there's a price attached so I it's kind of a zombie so yeah I mean to your point Angelo I mean we see a lot of dows have specific purpose like Ventures investment communities social activy like those are having a h probability of succession compared like everything else just being a down like your deck doesn't need to be a down it's a COR yeah I just add to also cuz in startups like once a startup fails like the C cor shuts down it's hard enough to just find that data on the C Core in general even if it was alive where again since everything's on a public blockchain it's kind of they all look a lot of zombies out there yeah right in in the in the detritus of dows on chain you can find lots of lessons toorn I guess would be a good takeaway and we talk a lot about increasing the failure and iteration rate understanding the good and bad parts of Decay but in that in that realm as Dows are now evolving dying and coming up and dying and coming up what are the parts of the Dow space that you see evolving fastest now I I think you know for media at least just the idea of aligning interests is kind of what is the constant piece of crypto to me I think you know Bitcoin was very good at aligning interests in finance and creating a you know a currency for all of our community members if you're in crypto probably came in through Bitcoin and you know I think the elements that have worked well for all the Dows that are really crushing it is just really nailing that aligned interest piece and figuring out the right way to make sure that you're building together in a way that the value capture is correct um and I feel like projects sometimes get that wrong because it's easy to overlook and just focus on you know what excites us the most or or what's the Flash EST thing but it's really the boring stuff I feel like that that is the key piece for Dows that that crush it Constitution Dow is a good example of just like I think I think a lot of people in the space saw that and it was Goofy because it's like hey let's buy the Constitution uh but it like showed you can raise funds form a community like overnight and have everyone be on board with a creative idea and you know they didn't win the Constitution but I think it showed a lot of people in the space what you can do if you align interest correctly yeah um I try on that one too I think the two big areas that that I'm I'm seeing a lot of progress in the Dow space is around governance and then investment um I think what what dowo Architects are doing with governance processes and with kind of software mediate mediated collaborative governance is really really impressive um and I think just this this concept of taking you know Game Theory and tokenomics and being able to like incorporate those into trust scores uh measures of impact measures of people's um skills and understanding uh and and to incorporate all of those into kind of like a dynamic governance game um I think that that's what for me is the most exciting uh because you know I think I see Dows as really continuing the tradition of co-ops um and trying to bring them into the Modern Age um so that co-ops can outperform and out compete economically traditional organizations um and I think one of the biggest areas of failures of traditional co-ops has been uh governance it's it's it's often times just it's slow it's bureaucratic I mean just saying the word Co-op you know like H it just it feels like sitting in an hourong meeting talking about nothing you know and so I think that governance aspect is is something where Dow's really have something to bring and then obviously on the other side is is investment I know in Quorum we're focused a lot about alternative structures of investment alternatives to to Cub tokens alternatives to equity focused around kind of fractionalizing future Revenue um but there's a lot of really cool things that we can do with how projects get funded and um I think in the beginning a lot of dows seem to me like just kind of copied and pasted the idea of stock and traditional Equity corporations it's like oh digital stock um I think that's certainly one way to one way to do it but I'm seeing a lot of uh uh folks in this space kind of thinking outside of the box and rethinking what it means to raise investment in a uh you know Network Centric way so I I want to Echo that by the way because I think that's the coolest piece about what we're all doing like that piece to me there's plenty of ways you can securitize or tokenize and do everything and just have a thing trade and number go up and that's cool but I feel like what Dows and and co-ops are really good at is again aligning interest in the way that you drive Network effect in the shared Mission like for us in as a media company in coinage we put out our first piece of content did like 2 million views it was the Terra collapse uh the interview with do Kuan and it blew up and we let people Min in nft to watch it for free but it basically let us find our community uh they came to us they Meed a free nft on eth and then from there we've slowly been raising the price because they basically let us build what we wanted to build as an outlet that had one piece of content so at that point it's like starting as a Netflix when you have one piece of content you can't really charge for that but if you create a network in a community that was really into that piece of content and then you grow we've seen the value of our community go up because now we have a larger audience we can charge more for sponsorships but you got to start somewhere you got to find your audience you got to find your community and then you build with them and I think that piece is lost in just if you sold stock it's not the same as finding a member who wants to contribute to the mission and make the mission better like that's the network effect that makes Dows and co-ops and communities I think really really interesting seconded I mean the value creation we see what we do like it's not just us it's our clients it's our vendors all inflating our price and our value and what we can do so the way to tokenize that reward mechanism like if you give me a great lead fantastic you should share in the rev the growth of our firm and overall ner if you're building a new client you save a client relationship with a staff like you deserve interest in that because you Su you know basically uh succeed and essentially increase the overall value I'm just going to kind of wrapid fire because I feel like there's so many just incredible attributes I mean scale right Spork Dow this is a dow right this whole event so if this is dead you know that's surprising to me but um was a $100 million in economic impact for the city of Denver anybody who's attended you know the you get the spork you stake the spork so just sheer scale the ability to scale in an organization of of this size quickly uh is pretty impressive uh accessibility to novel ways of you know just let's just take cash flows for example the ability to borrow against your assets permissionless to you know maybe pay a vendor a little bit uh or you know what however you got to optimize your cash flows you can do it I think a lot more efficiently cleanly effectively and I'd love you know perhaps even uh easier way or at least Le in a way that's kind of automated um all on chain um I don't even want to get into Ai and how that adds to it now but that's also impressive uh we did a um uh back to the kind of the um uh the scale piece we have a um uh we're a part of a um well I'll add one more attribute is incentive alignment so unlike kind of traditional you know I look at the the YC kind of model and you know it's obviously a a a source of Beacon of startup and inspiration and whatnot but but imagine if there was imagine if YC was structured in such a way where uh everybody the relationship wasn't between the startup and YC or at least the equity alignment wasn't between startup and YC but also that was there but then there was also shared across the entire startup portfolio and so what that starts to do is unlock these really interesting incentive alignment just first of all just ways of thinking that like oh if I you know if we do kind of a dow token swap with or treasury diversification with these three Dows those are going to compound Network effects back to ours and and theirs and it's very very much more positive some but it also takes a lot of unlearning and kind of relearning and appreciating these new ways of of compounding value together so that's like half my list I could keep going but I'm I'm going to stop yeah I mean very much and you know as I think of maybe taking the pulse of the Dow space how it's doing coming maybe out of the bear into the bull as a service provider of dows as a coordinator of dows what do you see as really speeding up the rate at which it returns because in my experience there's a lot of both experience from previous bows and iterations there's building through the bear and there's a lot of tooling and there's a lot of service now available what what parts of that are are driving the speed of the increase of dows maybe Cameron you want to start on service yeah I mean for sure I mean it's it just gets easier so the accounting we only seen so many LPs certain faults how you interact certain transactions so that has changed to a certain degree but also the softwares have caught up so when it comes to governance when it comes to allocating your treasuries when it comes to engaging with your cap table all these bu in web 3 fashion of Ben here and they accelerate that Innovation so just continue on a normal pace of $100 million a day doesn't hit like $100 million 5 years ago because there's so much more capability with that Mill yeah in terms of tooling I I just feel like you know this is my 30th Denver it's it's been cool to see like the way that the crypto Dow space has evolved in just a short amount of time right you got to get everything built properly and then you start to see the creative ways that people can use these tools tools and incentives and network effects alignment to actually create something that couldn't be done before and you know I'm just looking at things through a media lens but like the ability to co-own assets as a community is kind of insane to think about like we we built an amalgamation of my shitty New York City apartments and put it in the metaverse and our community members can see that piece of content and then own that virtual asset together and like I don't know that that's something that could not have existed before web 3 came around and you know I think the tools now have made it so much easier to do things like that that would have been impossible just literally like a year ago yeah and on that same note of things that could not have existed before that applies I feel like to all the previous three industrial revolutions we are now entering if not already in the fourth Industrial Revolution but the major difference is that everybody can own a piece right you can go download Manas today and literally own a piece of this crazy Tech Frontier that we're entering um and and from a from an ownership perspective web 3 is is enabling that you know pretty significant paradig shift which is which is cool to think about I'm curious what you guys think though I mean I think I mean I I interpreted kind of the under underpinning sort of um assertion of like this question are Dow's dead right um is the fact that we are a bit of a dow winner right like there was more Dows more Dows and then the the Dow formation seemed to fall off a cliff right and so in my mind that that's a signal that tells us something I mean certainly there's a crypto winner in general um so I mean maybe you think it's as simple as that but what do you got what do you think it tells us the fact that nobody's really starting dows right now I think it's cool because I don't know this space crypto is filled with dreamers imaginers uh people who can talk a pretty good game promise a lot of things and it's almost like I don't know I'm excited to to meet all the other Colorado co-ops Dow co-ops because we all are kind of in this to give real value back to the people who helped get us off the ground right and like you know figuring out how to do that legally how to do it right is cool but then you got to do it right you got to give the dividends back to your members you've got to figure out a way to who's active who's inactive you got to do all that and I think we're like coinage at least like we've been able to build you know for a media company it's not normal to get to that point to where you're in the green um but shout out to our team and our members for what we've been able to build because we're almost there and I think once people see like okay with this is real you can use an nft to to create membership and you can join a dow Co-op and you can start to make I got to be careful our lawyers are here uh you can start to win together um but I think it's going to take actually doing it to where it starts to click for people as like oh wait this actually lets me earn something that is real and not just speculate on number go up and then flip a token it's like no we're building real value on chain and I think once people see it and it's not just us I mean everyone up here on stage everyone at this conference like once it happens then we can say we did it and then everyone knows it's not just hype it's real let's make dividends sexy I love the word dividend it's like why are we not using that more rather than just okay I bought something I sold it it's over I'm done with this project it's like no we are building together and the dividend membership it's it's like we're here for the long term I me you put in a dollar get out a125 you have earned value yeah I think that's a key the key word you know building the thing earning the value that gets conflated and so you know to take off the rose-colored glasses for Dow's you know future uh liquidity can definitely be a curse and a bug right it's uh you know I think we is easy to see in the early Ico days it just like I was just like flood Capital like if if you compared that to uh remember doing analysis if you compared it to the average Siege stage start up during the time I think it was like something like four or 5x the amount of funding per like per progress versus like you know more traditional startup so there's still a lot of things to really learn from just the history of building companies and projects you know anything that has a token I mean even even um yeah I mean they're all still Siege stage startups they just have liquidity from day one so it sometimes it's it's actually better to intentionally maybe remove that barrier for a while and kind of uh um because it can really pollute and pervert the Pervert the project or at least the the uh upfront willingness to to build something of value you know even if you don't quite know what's out on the other side you have to kind of build that Faith Build That culture that hey what we're what we're creating is valuable and if we're right then we can kind of have the rewards from that but if we introduce this this mechanism too early then uh um you know a lot of times they'll fall apart so often that can kill projects I think I mean that that also gets at um at this idea of um conflating money with power uh and which is not uh some something that all Dows do but it's something that that many do and it seems like kind of the default way is essentially selling governance tokens right and so um which is the same as traditional Equity corporations of course um I think uh I I really get inspired by by Dows and I know this is like quorum's approach as well um of separating money from Power uh so that just because you put a bunch of money in doesn't necessarily mean that you have any more say in the governance it doesn't mean that you can't get involved build trust build a a track record of success um build up key specialized knowledge um that then grants you voice uh and and Authority in the governance process um of course you're encouraged to put in money and sort of build Authority the governance process but those don't have to be one and the same and Dows give us the the flexibility to be able to kind of Define whatever the heck we want right and so if we can separate those two it it can change the incentivization structures that that come around with like too much liquidity it's like well is liquidity really a problem kind of very large um is it a is much of a problem if all you have liquidity on is sort of trading shares of future revenue or tra trading shares of future benefit um but owning those doesn't necessarily give you um give you any ability to kind of push the project in a certain direction um so yeah I mean that makes me leads in to you know if it it's both the investment of time and the investment of money I'm in Dows that I've only invested time and others have invested money and I think you know seems to me my next question is that if you're looking at the investment space broadly and Retail investment is becoming gamified obviously centralized exchanges are very aggressive ly gamifying investment attention seeking attention capturing sticking with the theme of our Dow's dead is how do you compete for attention how do you gamify Dows how do you get participation without losing the soul of a dow yeah I think it's I mean you know dividend is a sexy word but it's not something that a lot of people in this scene are excited by it's sad because it's like I don't know I've always looked at it as like you're trying to sell a long-term Vision to someone who's a crack addict like there's a lot of people who want to flip on the day they want to be around maybe for like 30 minutes 5 minutes is like how long they're thinking and it's really hard I think to like sell a longer term Vision in a space that is focused on like number go up or Price or like flipping because they get distracted by that and so you do have to be careful otherwise the Dow will be dead if you mix that up because you want to share a road map and share a mission um but I think you know there's nothing wrong with that people even if you're an investor in a normal thing you want to see returns you want to see progress you want to see that what you were sold matches with what you're delivering um and you can get lost in that too if you get distracted and decentralized too much to where there is no Guiding Light but I think it's on like any Dow founder or project leader to say all right I hear you community and I hear everyone in this community and you got to get it right to where not one person can steer everything too much because then you're perverting the whole thing but I think it is important to you know show people you're making progress and if it's not number go up you've got to deliver some sort of metric that shows all right we're growing we're building this right yeah I don't think they're different like right like how do you stand out without losing your soul uh how do you attract it to I I think it for for me it's the same thing I think um I mean I'm I'm biased I guess but uh I think the strongest Dows are Dows with a really strong sense of shared purpose and shared identity right with a with a the clear Mission uh and the clarity of that shared identity that that is everything I mean that that that is and so there that then in turn creates a culture um which creates more shared identity which deepens the culture and ultimately uh like what we talk about at corm one a lot is work Joy this idea of like you know what what is it like to for us to be in that place where the the joy that we feel in our working lives is uh is Sparks and like like exist in that place more often and so I think if you could do that for people it's infection is it's viral it's magnetic and um your your members will be will help you stand out and um and kind of solves for everything else no 100% And it's something like obviously Good Financial Prudence leads to success you sp save a penny earn a penny Etc right but what you see when it comes to Dows it's it's culture like I've also built two remote accountancy firms with my partner what we have in common is an energy a community a familiarity we ask like hey how was your last weekend what'd you get up to but to have that commonality with some over the Internet it enables you to continue doing that remote asynchronous work if you don't care it's just you know upside why am I going to participate I'd say the answer to you know avoid um competing for tension is that you just don't uh you don't compete for attention you go back to the basics you know I was talking about y you see earlier but how things could be even cooler in this more Dow structure but their tagline is still pretty pretty simple build something people want build something for your customers find customers who are outside of these you know uh sphere of of of of uh you know where that competition for tension is and you want to um you know make something people want and then you Trojan Horse and you Dow pill the the people afterwards because if they're coming in for your product whatever you're building uh just out of either um they either want it or they want to be a part of it um then the kind of mechanisms of a dow only compound that value cuz it's like oh cool you're coming for what we're building for you whether you're in crypto or whatever you know we're making something of value for you that's great oh by the way did you know that we're going to also um stream dividends to you literally in real time on chain you know we have to like you got to set up this thing and might be a little take a little learning curve but that just compounds it immensely and then you're really solidifying that relationship that much further um but if it's the other way around then you will be stuck in that attention Arena basically yeah I may be reframing in our Dow dead in considering Dows as sometimes amorphous multi-level multivariable living organisms that are evolving what do you do within a dow or in a dow you're a member of to really get the proper fuel going to certain areas to make p parts of it evolve but also maintain the structure kind of the spine or the sole as you were saying what parts of that how do you how do you drive the energy and the flow that parts of the Dow need to suck up to both grow and to evolve I think I mean we talked about this earlier I think that's the secret sauce of like any doubt is that like you know a Founder has a vision if you start it depends on kind of how Dows or Whatever Gets spun up but the ideas that come in through the community members is kind of the reinvigorating piece and for us just personally at coinage like we've had ideas right so we're an outlet we've had members pitch guests we've had members book interviews that I would have never been able to get myself uh and I think you know the piece that makes it most exciting like we had the co-founder of Netflix find about about our project and he's like this is awesome you guys are revolutionizing media I don't understand what's going to happen with your model but the idea of aligning interests and giving the value back to you know your members is very exciting and so you know he's thrown ideas in too and it's like I would have never like building in the open just unlocks so many different possibilities and I think that's the cool piece about web 3 and Dows is that you just put an idea out there and you see who it attracts and then you feed off of whatever their ideas are and I think to the question of art Dow's dead like if you set it U right it can't be dead because you've created a community that has their own ideas and own kind of creative thoughts and they put them out there and if you get governance right the best one wins uh and I think that's that can't die just break it into three I think um kind of basically values leadership and like show don't tell right our moral code as people is something that we typically will act in our highest conviction about on things and so when you express whatever your values are for your organization up front this is what we did for build you know build values um uh the first thing I wrote in our white paper and I actually hadn't then after we kind of you know started doing the thing and getting busy building I hadn't appreciated it enough but we've actually had a lot of members come say like I actually joined and paid because of the values so now so that was just kind of um cool to see and then leadership you know remove the tech from all the equation a lot of the stuff is just a leadership challenge right um and since it is permissionless you have to you know tapping into that organic um initiative that that person has to want to express first um but at the end of the day like you can't nothing continues to move forward without you know those good leaders and then show don't tell so like I think thinking you know if you're founding a project or starting it thinking of yourself from day one as like I'm a contributor to this thing that I'm putting above myself um uh so by just like literally doing the work so you know building all this thing yourself you know doing all the things there's no task too big um and then you know this kind of goes hand inand with the leadership piece you'll start to see more folks kind of exemplify that same behavior which I think just then starts to feed into the culture so those are the three things we find the most important yeah yeah um I agree with all the stuff y all are bringing forward of course um I think the piece I would add would be professional empowerment and professional growth uh I think part of what what any sort of collective structure has to offer uh that can sort of beat traditional ORS and I think Dows are U are only more so and potentially exponentially more so on this front um is the ability to offer um and I'm I'm kind of focused more like work dows dows where people come together to do to do work together so that's my bias but at least within that that realm I think Dows when done right can offer the quickest path to Growing your career to to becoming uh more experienced as a professional uh and more powerful as a professional uh in a way that is non-transactional in a way that is community-driven in a way that is not holding you back like a traditional corporate structure um where all of your success seems very depend dependent on this sort of rigid rigid structure and so I I think Dows can really just lean into that and and make make sure if you can bring people in help them identify and get clear on their own professional goals and help them grow and Learn by doing stuff that maybe they're not qualified to do by um you know getting and notching successes under their belt uh that they wouldn't have been able to notch on their own or or at least not as quickly I mean first of all that's just freaking awesome I mean like like that's great you can you can feel really good about what you've done at the end of the day but second of all those people aren't going to be quiet right they're going to go bring in their friends and their colleagues um and and I know that because you know that's exactly what we've we've seen when you do right by people when you help them grow their careers um they will do right by the collective because why wouldn't they so absolutely the next question I have is really based on if there are doubts that are dead because maybe Gary gendler had his way or because state enforcement came along you know tornado cash not Dow but that's a way a dow can in theory die how do how do your communities and your Dows feel about that respond to that talk about it amongst each other where does it drive you to move either to run away and get ahead of that stay away from legal go off in greyland be more agile what less do you take and and what does your community feel I think we're probably all going to have a very similar answer on this one because I think it's probably the coolest piece about building Dows and why coinage and trustless are trying to build you know Colorado co-ops is because it's legal uh and we wanted to build in the US and the idea of getting that right to where you can actually promise things that aren't new right everyone knows REI everyone goes there they understand okay I get a dividend at the end of the year I'm contributing great like that is an incredibly important and Powerful shield in the world of crypto where projects are in their pants every day for exactly that question of could we you know could Gary knock on the door and could this happen you know uh and I think getting it right legally is is very important in crypto um and doing that obviously lets you kind of remove one worry from the plate um so that's I think we're all pretty similar in the idea of all right getting these these questions answered correctly you operate in a bunch of different jurisdictions so it's I don't know how you do it because there's a lot going on but I think getting that right from day one just you know lets you build for the long term the right way well something we see too like partnership law corporate law tax law these are things have been trusted for the past 30 40 years so if you go I mean if not more and the thing if you form yourself a 51 C3 a 501c4 alternative tax elections to a Cham that social purpose public good you know you don't have to be saving cancer Etc but like in the case of Unis swap Unis swap is a 501c4 foundation they have a social purpose decentralization they are accredited by the IRS they file 990s but that exists on Shore and in the case of you know other mechanisms you know an LCA can be tax a partnership it could be a Cooperative here in Colorado but you have existing 1120 C's and certain tax elections that are recognized tested approved and as long as the narrative the governance the bylaws how do you report to your stakeholders if that aligns with the irs's expect expect uh expecting you're within the bounds of the law which is fantastic yeah it's not the sexiest thing to say on on a panel about Dows and stuff but it's like I don't know co-ops have been around for a very long time and I we we talked to an accountant once and he's like oh I get it you're like you're making the co-op a 21st century thing and I that's the way I think about Dows and it's like not sexy but it's powerful absolutely um my legal representation is in the stand so please wave your hands uh if I'm saying anything but uh that's you know not the right way but first of all very much in alignment with what was just said right here there's structures that allow you to do the things that you know Dow's promise um it's not lost on me that creating a DA for each City uh might get interesting down the line um but um at the same time you know the end of the day we're also entrepreneurs right we're we're Founders the founders job is to take a very surgical Precision look at risk and calculating that accordingly you know somewhere on the spectrum of playing it really safe and you know just doing all the things on all the way the other end you know look at Uber I think it was kind of strategically in their plan just get really aggressive build up a pretty sizable legal legal fund and then you know I'm not saying to do that I don't think I don't think I have that kind of risk profile myself but you know you can calculate a lot of these things and also you can build products in a way where you don't have to have um you know it can you can do a lot of kind of testnet um uh tactics right where you're doing things that aren't legally binding they're not actually going to have you know implications significant implications for the business um or your or your legal standing um until you see how things kind of play out right like okay we're waiting for this regulation to pass here before we actually do this so you can kind of you can kind of sometimes it pays to build patiently um to see how the market plays out and evaluates and the regulations evolve um so those are the three things I kind of think about yeah um yeah I think the thing I can think to add is I think a lot about ecosystem diversity um and and I think there's a lot of work to do to pull more people into the Dow the Dow ecosystem um certainly certainly uh contributors and folks like open to being a part of a dow um entrepreneurs who would consider you know get getting involved in like creating such a novel structure um uh and and particularly like you know the friction the amount of effort and learning it takes to sort of get over that hump to wrap your head around the space I think is a significant blocker um and then in particular investors I think you know as you know we we've explored the investment space around um some of these alternative structures you know the reality is that there's just two different worlds right there's investors who consider investing in these types of um uh you know organizations and there's investors that are a heart pass um and you know it's like 95% of all investors are like a hard pass and so I think um there's a lot of work to do to iron out some of these these gray areas um you know particularly around Securities Law to give more confidence to people um and it it you know I I think everybody understands that you know we're all on the Vanguard together trying to push this forward um and uh and in order for I think for this sort of collectivist approach to entrepreneurship um to Innovation to really take root we need to pull more people into this and uh and that's not going to happen while there's still a bunch of clouds hanging over you know even like some of the fundamental underpinnings of these these organizations yeah I mean I get a little bit of a a surprising theme here in in this in this era of crypto it seems like from Alexa legal perspective we were dealing so often with Dow who were going down and then finding legal and then finding structure but if you can drill down a little more on kind of what you've been saying like how you use structure to drive narrative and drive community and Define what actually you're building toward it seems relatively new to me yeah I mean I I don't know you want to go with structure because structure I mean no one probably knows it better than you do do it say even just the continuity of a DA like certain cases like a DA for a specific purpose or time is okay doesn't need to exist in perpetuity we don't need to have the same thing it's like pizza D like all they do they throw pizza parties that's their purpose they do it well they execute everyone's happy um but there's certain doubts that you know they have the initial Euphoria the vision gets clear you know unclear they don't know where the purpose is they don't know the right economic model they may brought in a you know Council in 3 years later and then they're sitting there in this weird morphis organization that isn't yet dead or alive but people still carry but begly begly sorry yeah I uh uh I mean there are certainly Dows that lose their way um and there are ones where if you don't set up the structures we've already talked about it can feel like homework to a lot of people um and no one wants that no one likes homework uh so structuring it and figuring that out is is pretty important but yeah I mean to your last question in terms of it sucks like I I'll just say it sucks that we're like thinking about like obviously there are scams so it's good that like people are thinking about how to do this legally and how to set it up right but I mean we've heard from Hester Pur she was speaking here like it sucks that there are entrepreneurs trying to do this legally and have to worry about am I going to go to jail all the time and that's not good for entrepreneurship and I think it's it's bad for the country but I understand why everyone wants to protect everybody but at some point it's it's kind of like you know we need more good Dows we need more good projects that show what we're all working on you can really start to unlock some of these effects and I'm just excited that I think that's where we are now there's more good than bad there's more fun than homework and that's exciting to me yeah on the structure front um I uh yeah one of our one of our collaborators um said this thing that has has stuck in my head which is that you know we've had centuries at this point to uh study the way that hierarchies work uh that hierarch hierarchical or organizations work um we have you know management science and um or design theory that that that really with like these long um you know track records um and and really great tools for for studying and planning out hierarchical organization design um but uh decentralized human organizational structures are comparatively incredibly new particularly ones operating at the kind of uh like speed and um and scale um that that we see DA's doing and so uh I I I think there's a like a missing science uh you know that that is evolving right now and we're all kind of figuring it out together but I think uh you know corum's approach is uh to start from the humble place of look we don't know how to structure this um like like we've got ideas um and so you know we're a company that grows and then grow other companies and then hosts other companies and you know tries to get them to spin out when it's appropriate and and so I get we look at each one of those companies each one of those virtual companies as an opportunity to to test out a new structure um and one of the things I'm looking forward to is like more Dows more people in this space sharing best practices sharing more details about exactly what their organization model is how do they uh handle money you know like what what is what are their you know incentivization commission structures what's their do they have an HR policy you know like all of those you know how do they handle leadership right all of those pieces I think are um incredibly important um and uh and also incredibly different so yeah I think more collaboration amongst STS would be would be helpful on that front yeah well I guess maybe largely take it that Dows Aren't Dead maybe Dows were hibernating for the winter a little bit but I certainly get the impression that you were all building through the winter as iow was and manyi were um and I see a lot in the kind of building up different Dows in cities Model A lot of green shoots of smaller Dows start up is that where the growth is now or is it in actually taking Dows that are generally around for a bit been putting their structure together now getting their tooling together and streamlining or is the growth in just widespread absolute seating everywhere I think that's that's a good question cuz have there been huge Acquisitions in the Dow space yet like someone swooping in and just being like I want to buy buy that up cuz like I don't think so no hasn't happened too much I mean you see like various like Venture investment Dows that will invest or take ownership or control of like certain token Stakes but not the same kind of like spack you know private Equity Group type of scooping up various DS I think most of probably because they haven't set up the structure right so they wouldn't even know like what that looks like what am I buying an LLC like yeah what are we buying but I think you know if now that we're in this chapter where people have set things up right what that looks like I think it's really interesting is like okay and we've seen it with some nft projects like someone swoops in pudy penguin's a good example and they see value and they want to unlock it so they swoop in and run it I I do think it is kind of interesting to think about what happens in the next five years when potentially some of these Dows could get scooped up like that I mean like I I find this more often than n now we have like technos Redwood they're doing a token valuation they're signing value before was like yeah you just want 10% stake sweet deal so it's people a little more businessyoutube I think we definitely need more m&a activity kind of in the space for sure um we need really good examples of successful mergers of successful Acquisitions um but I also think there's a broad space uh for alternatives to traditional m&a that are only possible because of dows uh one of our members our and partners um uh awesome guy David Thompson he has a group called calance um that is is doing a lot of work around kind of shared IP ownership or like creating kind of semi- merged kind of Partnerships that allow um you know benefits in different parts of these uh partnership networks to you know for the economic benefits of those to propagate through uh a network in a way that again would just not be possible in a traditional organization so no I I think we'll see a lot of m&a activity consolidation but also decentralization like why is the unisa foundation have control over their gr making program their benefits as well as the overall Dex and Dex code like those should be multiple organizations within one through some sort of shared governance mechanism but they're fundamentally different activities but each Dow holder has the same vote and what's the you know percent fee on this LP and also do we fund these Builders e Denver very very disproportionate things well I think that's just about wrapping us up any final thoughts any quick words we've just got a couple minutes left yeah real quick I would just say coinage media is where where we live coin. media if you want to con a web3 outlet with us it's exciting co-founder of Netflix everyone else and shout out to our community for for making us what we are you want to get Board of Taxation come check us out of Darian advisers build cities so if you want to talk about startup Society startup cities Network States Dows uh build cities. Network check us out Twitter at build cities and um yeah this is great thank you yeah hey if you if you want to uh do some Consulting in and around the the uh you know AI blockchain space or start a startup with some other fun Folks at a supportive atmosphere come check out Corum 1 and I guess I'll say if you have legal questions Le sty is around we're available we are very public facing so anytime you come in happy to point anybody anywhere you go oh very good awesome yeah thank you thanks guys