Community Meetup September 2020: AMMs, vAMMs & Liquidity Mining with Perpetual Protocol

and yeah okay we are live so um welcome everyone uh this is the september community meetup of 2020. um we have been doing this for i think six months now uh online via zoom and so appreciate you guys um keep uh joining us even while it's not a normal meetup where we can see each other uh today we have a special guest from taiwan temple who's running perpetual protocol will be giving us a talk on um automated market makers and virtual automated market makers shortly uh and after that we'll have a discussion on liquidity mining and yield farming but before all that uh let me just do our normal monthly roundup uh so for this month uh some announcements uh there is a crypto malaysia meetup tomorrow at 5 30 pm uh at asia blockchain center i believe this is in pj so if people are interested i'll be sharing the link later and you can join separately there's a in itascan's monthly newsletter there's a win 10 in each prize for answering a quiz on yield farming so if you want to just make sure you've reviewed your you know what your farming is about you can take that quiz and you send a chance to win 10 dollars um let me see i have some comments here quickly um so yz money ask about uh wanting to know about liquidity mining on a perpetual contract um that's a good question we will um you can ask tempo that question afterwards during his q a session and johnson's asking for live on youtube uh no uh it's um on zoom only right now and i'm recording it i will be um uploading the recording on youtube afterwards cool so uh it's just some stuff that's happened uh last month on ethereum i didn't catch anything happening in the local news so i have no local news to share but as always there's a lot of things going on globally and first i don't really have to say this i think everybody already knows but we've seen a lot of yield farming things happen in august that's basically a lot of memes some projects literally only have memes and a copy smart contract code base some of you already know my opinions on yam itself and rebasement but you know that's for another discussion but it has shown like a powerful thing where a a project that doesn't have a real company that has only smart contracts can can raise i think at one point he had like more than 600 million dollars in their um locking up contracts so that's a very powerful um awful thing that ethereum has enabled then there was uh the sort of medalla test net incident or more like media test net crash so those who run validators you've seen that islam had this problem um and then because 65 percent of nodes were on them the whole uh system crashed so that's you can see it as both a good and a bad um it's bad because the system went down but it's good because that's the whole point of doing testnet and yeah if you don't already have a p2 validator please feel free to run it um i've had some uh requests by people to run a is2 validator how to meet up and yes if you're interested let me know in the in the chat um and and we can arrange one with everybody um christine's adding here vampire mining which i believe is related to sushi swap as one example um kind of like relying on someone else's liquidity but maybe you can uh add a link in a chat um later and johnson's saying 1.4 billion yeah that's that's already broken fast uh yams uh record let's hope they don't have a i think people have checked it let's not let's hope there's no block that locks people's uh contract uh people's stake inside that contract a third news item is sap one of the largest essentially enterprise software houses in the world wrote a very good sort of introduction to ethereum for enterprises and including a a live demo and it's on ethereum which a lot of people previously have only been using ethereum on sort of quorum or other permission versions uh we also have uh metamask announcing that they're changing their license so for most people like you and i probably don't have to worry about this but if you're running a project that's using uh better masks code base and you have more than 50 000 users and your commercial uh you would at that point have to enter into sort of financial discussions with us for those of you who haven't been spending all your time on yield farming there's actually there was actually a cool uh game using zero knowledge proofs on the robston testnet i think they had 140 000 transactions which would have completely broken midnight if it wasn't there but um it wasn't and it was pretty cool in a kind of 90s uh type of if you if your expectations is that of a 90s kind of game um yeah so so i don't know if anyone else played i played i think caleb did um yeah if you did play let me know uh what was your score i think i was 127. um so yeah not not one of the most impressive ones uh and i think the last news article i have is uh there's a supply gate uh some a lot of some bitcoiners were talking about how ethereum supply can't be audited uh and i mean you can look through the thread and a lot of i'm sure a lot of you have also read through the um the various twitter threads around this but i just thought to bring it up because it's cool to note that essentially it's a different culture between bitcoin and ethereum and how bitcoin is like put a lot of emphasis on being able to track the limited supply of bitcoin whereas ethereum ethereums are not as um have that much of a focus on it um it's it's also quite cool that within a few days a lot of people came up with independent scripts that were many were able to get pretty much the same supply independently so yeah so that's uh it on uh monthly roundup uh next uh temple will be introducing uh amms and vamms just a quick introduction temple before i give the floor to you so temple is the co-founder and ceo of perpetual protocol a decentralized perpetual contract protocol i was a novel a new type of automated market maker he's also done a few different um entrepreneurship ventures before uh decor an accounting s-a-a-s service that was backed by binance labs uh and also qb i hope i'm pronouncing that right with 10 million downloads a messaging app and a couple other apps as well and perpetual protocol is a decentralized perpetual contract trading protocol that allows up to 20 times leverage on long and short positions on basically any asset and uh temple will be talking a bit more about them as well in stock so yeah it's 8 15 tempo i give the floor to you yeah sure um can i show you my string let me okay let me try i need to i need to allow you okay all right okay yeah so hi everyone uh so uh this is yangon uh so some uh some people call me temple uh that's kind of like my network or internet media so uh i'm the co-founder of petro poco and uh we built uh kind of like the am for perpetual contract uh before we get i get to in get into professional contracts so i want to kind of like have an overview of all the aems and how it works and then try to work through like different kinds of contraptions and then go to like why we want to build a virtual am vm so before we start i mean like um so hold on so uh i think that uh okay skip so the first thing is that what is an am so automatic market maker um it's actually i think like in 2000 year 2000 there are several i mean in traditional financial market there are several organic market makers mostly used for production market so people are using this money makers like kind of like augustine based money maker to provide equity to position market buyers um but it doesn't really i mean have a lot of impact on the traditional financial market because i think they are private market i mean the financial market traditional financial market is more like private uh sectors so lots of private company control at different parts of the financial system so i think most of the money maker they want to have their own proprietary technology trying to get i mean in advance or i mean i get um get uh kind of like um in advance in advance of others or like um uh like uh trying to take advantage of every different thing so i think it's the okla monkey maker is not very successful in traditional market but in indeed five or in in blockchain actually i think um everyone knows that we are actually in a kind of like bull market right now i mean like d5 crazy gas spice is crazy personally i think there are two things i mean one thing is that finally we apply a coke model on the right place i mean we apply token model on the project like compound that's already doing well when you apply a token model on the project that already i mean they already have lots of uh token lock in the system they already have people like borrowing or that system you actually accelerate the everything accelerate the viral estimate the the the the linking uh i mean the actually all the things on compound and then the same as balancer so it actually got here so i think that uh applying the token model is the first thing the second thing is that [Music] we finally um i mean like we have finally has the way to do the for making monkey maker scout from unison so uh so go back to okay making money maker so the first thing is that so the first thing is an algorithm-based multimaker that provides creativity to the market the second thing is that once uh oh you always have a component that pulls the liquidity so you can become the provider to provide equity to the system and then you benefit from by providing equality so i think that's also a very important thing the first thing is that it's a counterparty to all the traders so traders can check with auto making market money maker without permission so i think that's also very important anytime i mean the until making money maker will give you a quote and then you will fulfill that quote so i think that's also very interesting and the first thing is that it's very predictable most of the community market makers they have a math i mean like a mathematical equation to trigger that uh although making market maker so it's actually if you understand how it works it's kind of like predictive so you can feel i mean like you can build programming on top of this and then and at the same time you feel i mean it's kind of like it's like um you can you understand how it works but if you do the same thing on the ogre book market or on like bmx you actually can i mean like because the liquidity i know there are lots of we created on backs but when things happen like in march actually everyone is just like pull their older out out of the book so actually you you you you don't know how much you quickly i mean i have on there you have to do lots of calculations so i think that's totally different so that's why i think uncle making multimaker has their own market and also it's more composable because it's actually very easy to predict yeah the last thing is that uh in most cases it's very easy to create a new market on the oklahoma market maker especially on uni swap actually that's actually the thing that triggers the whole growth i mean the growth i mean the d5 was like stuff from like two or three months ago okay so um let me go faster so here i just want to i mean tell the difference of or commit i mean like a poker with automatically maker or and the protocol without an auto making multimeter um i start working on crypto from like 2017 at the time um they are decentralized exchange so they are ether guilder people trading like coin on that uh it's actually shut down now um they are igacs their new one is more like formal one and people check uh coin on idex uh before you don't have to do kyc but right now they have to do kyc if you want to trade on likes it's actually very interesting but um like first i mean like uh on ethereum or on b5 people copy the idea from central exchange or from traditional finance so that's why we have i guess first but then uh people i mean like banker banker is a is ico project very big at that time and then banker launch is the first aam project but it's not really successful and the uni swap launch in 2017 i think 2018 kind of kind of like a time frame but it's not very successful at that time but after a while in tucson 2018 actually uni swap stopped picking up some momentum and then the same um but i think that's actually skate the same and then the same thing happened on landing dharma and compound they actually are the same i mean they they started around its same time domain is more like p2g model like traditional finance and compound is a poor model and actually dominant has already pivot to other things but compound actually stays and then they are very big right now so i think and if we look at that things so uma is another program actually um is doing pretty well right now but they pivot so they kind of pivot to an oracle solution but uh but uma is also doing the older book synthetic is kind of like poor model but different kinds of pool what i'm trying to say here is that the uh the decision the b5 starts from like traditional concept traditional ogre book concept but in the end actually aam is the one who who actually stays and then who actually goes a lot later um because i think because it's unchecked it's because um like i said it's more predictable and then uh they are i mean a large part of the traders are actually programmers so they actually do lots of assets to pull through i mean like a smart contract through like different kinds of programming interface so i think that's actually why it happened but i think it's very cool to see actually most of the portal protocols that that actually stay strong right now are am based so uh so like us we are doing the futures kind of a kind of am so we so we are kind of like here yeah we can talk about that later okay so um i want to go through like several like different amps so that people can get like kind of like know how he i mean how he evolved from the so let's start with uni swap so uni swap uh in 2018 before uni saw this banker it's a little bit different but it kind of like popularized the idea of a m but banker don't really have lots of success uni swap is the first one to make this concept really successful um i think they are like like they give like small not a really big difference but uh unisoft make it so we start with from unison so the concept of unicorn is very simple it has a constant part it uses a constant product formula so it has a formula here so x multiplied by y equal to k so um so which means that uh if you have two ports um like uh um x4 is die why poor if if so if i put something into the dipole i put something in the x cool and then i can take something from the white wall i mean the product is a constant so it's actually like a graph underneath so if we have more i mean die in the expo they are less if in the white pool it's very simple i mean uh so people can eat change using this formula i think this is a pretty very simple idea but uh it's really powerful because it's so it's simple it's easy to understand it can price to infinity means that uh you cannot buy out a single side of the pool i mean you'll make a home home many tokens you bring into x4 there is always something in the white pool so i think that's also interesting way to do this um you can become an equity provider to the union swap you just put into two tokens in the same i mean in the same uh ratio i mean like uh if there are like 10 dice one is here you can put in like uh 10 more dice and one more year here and then you become with equity provider this is also very powerful thing that people can i mean join the protocol and then become one of the provider and then you take a piece of the fees okay so that's unisof and then we enter curve that i think curve is um is is uh is very interesting because personally i think curves will be i mean it will be there for a long time but uh anyway but anyway curved launch in 2019 last year is actually not very long um so it's a special case for for uni-swap so feel really science is doing pretty well but uh because of the constant power curve um if you have i mean when you trade like stable coin to another skipper coin you actually have um i mean it's not really makes sense because they are slippage i mean larger i mean but uh but you have this question that i trade die for usbc why do i have how why should i pay for the savage so curve actually tried to fix it because you know you know beforehand that i mean like this is only for the stable asset bracket basket so for example i have like four tokens die usbc usb and true usb because beforehand i know the tokens are in most cases their value is the same it's all one usb one us dollar so i can actually modify the the curve to something like blue line so the dot line is uni swap actually i kind of like design another line so you just i just try to modify the equation so it's actually free i mean like if if they are um i mean they are similar amounts of die token singapore and usbc token singapore i actually we will have a very very small seepage curve so it's make it very easy make people aware willing to exchange skateboard coins so curfew is doing pretty well i think they their total lock value is over a billion yeah so i think that they're doing pretty well and they can have like more than two assets in the pool so they have different sets of pools that you can choose and then you can you can also be becoming an equity provider you can share the fees one thing uh because uh the savage is very slow i mean like and also good design they actually charge you a very small fee so if you want to ch i mean like swap coin if you swap on curve um it's actually i mean if you swap on curve actually the slippage is less than if you swap on binance or other centrality change but the guest fee is so high so right now it's not a good thing yeah so that's curve um okay so just go through everything so and then uh we enter balancer so brother is another one that kind of like generalized the uni swap curve so balancer is actually uh you can actually have like two more than two assets and then you can customize the weights so what i mean by cost microwaves is that uh like uh like like the example i have here so i have died i have eat right so the weight of this too poor actually is the same is like 50 50 so you have on you saw the weight you have to set the weight i mean you cannot change your weight it's always 50 percent to 50 but on balancer you can change your weight why i want to do that actually it's uh there are several cases you you might want to do that the first one is that if you launch a new token actually the price fluctuates a lot so you might want to put the tokens on the uh on a small weight smaller weight why you want to do this is that then the token will fight fluctuates more but the impermanent loss will be less um i don't want to touch on impermanent laws right now but that's actually better if you do this for a new token uh but they are i mean like different things people are kind of like extreme experimented thing right now so uh but the second like different ways for the poor is one of the things and then they have like they can have like multiple assets like three assets so below below is actually a group a graph that uh see assets so it's that kind of three-dimensional i mean three-dimensional kind of like uh i know chart something but anyway i mean like uh it's uh it's a new thing it's a new one and uh it's very interesting that you can by customizing the ways actually you have different effect effect so i think balancer is very personally i like better server lots i think this is really interesting and then you can have more than two assets browser also have this like very interesting one that actually we are using so it co-balancer liquidity boost trapping pool because uh we talk about the weight you can save the weight so become a new pool that you can actually change the weight dynamically when you want or you can set the period of time like a week and then you want to change the die from 20 to 80 percent and then the weight of e from 80 to 20 it kind of like swap the weight um why i want to do this they are also different usage but one of the usage is that if you want to do a token cell this actually is very interesting way to do a token sale it's actually not doing a token if you want to launch a token it's a very interesting way why i'm saying that is because um so this here i have a chart so um it starts at like 126. so um this is actually from like our i mean i mean our document but uh uh i want to uh show why i want to show you that uh you can actually change your weight but when you change your weight if there is no one buying or buying or selling the asset so if i put in like the 10 die here and 100 easier if i just do this i don't change anything again i change your weight actually you will create a fat like the token price stack i mean i just like goes down like this every time you change your weight the pies change because price is actually the um the uh balancer is the firmware for that but um price is kind of like divide by the poor i mean the token value in the pool so if you have i mean if you don't have any buy and sell odors and then the price will actually go down within that period and then you can if you change your weight actually you change you change this curve so you you can have different curve this is interesting because the i mean uh if you want to do a token launch on unison the most problem we have is that there will be bots going on let's go first i mean going going in at the first block why do they want to do that is because for i mean because uh so like token polishes if they see the poor they in most cases they are not going to take the token out so everyone who took the token from that point will i mean their profits will always be positive so that's why people actually will rush in at the first block there are bots that actually watching all the unisop transactions and then for all the tokens it recognized you just have put if in that token in that pool so actually there are lots of bots going on in unishop right now but that i think that's actually very interesting for unisa but it actually is very bad for the project owner and also for the the people who want to get the token on unison because they are always be wrong so in this case actually you are not easily be found wrong because when the bots enter the first block he has i mean like he he must know that the price actually is going down if there is no one keep buying the tokens after actually he will lost i mean it will lost so for any residual boss it should not come in at the first spot because the price is going it's going down so it will it should go in in the pool a certain point of time that they think that um there will be buyers after to compensate the loss right and then it becomes the marketplace and then that's how we discover the price so it's more like by discovery so i think this is very interesting that's the things that you can you can do with balancer yeah so uh the last one is banker uh back into uh is very interesting uh it's another kind of am with a prize fee so they use trending oracle um it's actually a very uh very interesting way so we have i mean like so on uni swap um they are uh so on unisof uh suppose i uh so we have a pool of eve and guy so if it's like for 450 right now and die so for 450 die is equal to y e every time these price change the east goes up a little bit the arbitrage will come in and then they trade right so they take a little bit of profit so they move the price so buying this price goes up every charger comes in and then buys up a little bit on unit swap rp charger is kind of like kind of like mission it's not like the mechanism but the lobby charger helps uni swap to maintain the same price as other exchange so that's how every charger works but at the same time arbitrage has lots of profit because they they just move the tokens right so they can buy tokens at the lower price and then sell you a higher price everybody can compete in that game but it's how they earn the the profit but the profit actually come from the credit provider or the trader right so it's a zero-sum game so trader i'll be charger recruiting provider if rp charger takes out some profit then the trader lost or we couldn't provide a loss i think that's the case so banker they actually figured out a way to kind of like prevent this how they do this is that they use the price fee so just like what we said in banker you actually can change your weight of the too poor so if the price goes up and then i change the weight of the pool and then because every time i change the weight the pie sweep sweet sweet right so if i can switch the price and then the rb charger don't have that profit you might still have some coffee but i shipped their profit to other i mean other uh stakeholders like you could provide or actually it's trick to the traders so trigger has that slippage so actually it's kind of like very interesting so it kind of dynamically change your weight of the poor um so i think that uh that's really interesting i think the drawback is that uh using a price fee is very i mean how to how do you get the right price fee is very hard i mean like um it's um the price mine i mean if you want to have a stable price fee then that i mean you have to school a lot of tokens and for those i don't tell token or new purchase token you cannot be leased a banker too so i think that's a drawback but otherwise i think this is really interesting okay so uh yeah i talked about like different uh a.

m i mean like wrestling that published they are still more more to come i think i mean this area is growing very fast but i do want to mention one thing is that um i mean i used to work in like financial i mean company i mean like a tourist company before so um if you want to be successful in financial intellectual finance i mean it's um it's um it's a it's uh there uh it's a manufactured thing but uh i mean like relationship i mean i mean a cell scale i mean like uh understanding of the financial products or how to create how to build a new financial instrument oh oh i mean are they they are all factors they are all important different roles have different like like needs but uh in d5 war actually i think the math and financial engineering is the pyramid i mean like um if you can figure out a way to i mean like so we talk about like uni swap curved balancer they just kind of like market fold the constant power curve to a new form that fits a better scenario if you can figure out something like this actually you have i mean like you can build a protocol by this just by figuring out a small a use case that you can have a spatial curve to fulfill that use case personally i think this is really powerful i'm not like math background but i think this is actually changed a lot of different things i mean from here it's more like soul-free thing or like math or financial engineering so i think if we are interested in here i mean definitely give it a try i think that's very interesting okay so um that's one dimension so i think i spent a lot of time talking about the new amps most of the am they try to change that curve uh either by like modify its shape or like introduce a multiple dynamicians or have a price speed to bank dynamically dynamically change the the curve that's uh different ways to do this but and then for us actually we are more using more different ways to do i mean to to change the virtual uh the aam so uh uh perpetual pro culture we are doing the decentralized perpetual contract on ethereum with virtual am so you can think of this is more like a big macs with uh uni swap so what we want to do is that we want to have leverage on am so it's a special case only for perpetual uh why you want to check perpetual is that because uh support some people want to trade perpetually because your fee is low but the most cases you want to have leverage and the second thing you want to show right so that's why people treat uh perpetual of fds and finance um bmat but ex but for uni swap or for like am we have right now i mean before perpetual protocol we cannot have leverage why because we put the token in the pool so if we want to do 10 apps how can we put 10 more tokens in the pool right so that's a simple question so what we try to solve is this so you can see us it's more like we can kind of enlarge a pool to a certain degree not now it can act but to a second degree so they are more i mean the actual token is here but we enlarge the pool so how we do this is that uh it's very actually very simple so uh this is a kind of like a full chart so we talk about like am so uh like this is this am it's more like uni swap so if you put something in x you can kick i mean some tokens from y so like uniform but why we call it virtual is that we don't put in real tokens we put in a number oh so how it works is like this so suppose there is a trader who who wants to get a 2x average with a 100 usbc which means you want to have like 200 usdc kind of like buying power so what we do is that we actually put a 100 usb in a volt and then we just put 200 in the white pool okay so it's actually very simple and um but uh why can we do this is that uh because this is a perpetual contract so if everyone is trading with our our i mean our system then um we will always have enough uh casual in the vote uh why that is because uh because we use a constant power curve and then there is a math property that is called passing dependence so like trigger arrows pull in like like 200 in the y and then suppose that uh they are like 10 000 in the y so it's like 10 200 right now and then triggered like bob between putting 200 here and then trigger ad is actually if she removed the uh she closed the position we took 200 out and then bob took 200 out actually i mean like um if everyone checking against the virtual a.m actually i mean the we always have enough casual in the pool to fulfill that so i think that's a the difference from like other schooling and how we can do this um so um so that's um it's only but there are uh there's your other questions like how can we make sure our price is the same as like uh python binance or other place so we have funding rate for that so that's um uh kind of like how it works for the purp yeah yeah i think that's actually all my size so yeah i don't know if anyone has like questions i can answer anything okay cool thanks temple i'm gonna allow people to unmute themselves um please don't abuse that power um and feel free to ask your questions if if not i can ask mine first so i saw somewhere that perpetual says that you have a mechanism to stop front running um can you elaborate on that a little bit more or is that what you were mentioning earlier with the balancer graph yeah this is how we how we uh how balanced it can start from running so he actually it actually i mean it's not like stuff from running it actually create kind of like it's it kind of create again for the bot so i mean like the boss has to think about like which is the right time for the boss to enter and then the boss become the token buyer it's actually kind of like a game theory you have to guess like when uh i mean like um if others are coming at the price like like um like 50 cents here and then you should join because actually that's that i mean the price of it goes up here and then actually you have better winging chains i think so in more like game theory yeah so but but does that apply only at the beginning of a sale or is it an ongoing mechanism you know even one year later it can help prevent front running um no it's only at the beginning yeah so there are different kinds of frontrunner i mean they are like general from wrongly each front runs everything right so that kind of front runner i think it has to be solved only steering itself but uh but for this i mean like if you want to put a token on uni swap i mean you will get found wrong i mean a hundred percent and then the phone runner earns i mean like bzx they did this the phone wrong the farmer on this front wrongness earns like 500k like uh within that second hour so that's actually a large number or or even more i don't remember but it's around there yeah so i think that um that's if we can prevent that i think that will be i mean much better for other for i mean compared to other things we also we also i mean like uh trying to i mean trying all other things like mesa so mesa have this auction protocol that you can do the option and then everyone everyone will get the same price but personally i think mesa skill got front wrong so it's i mean like it's really hard to prevent that so i think balancer has a chance no one actually wants this before we are the first one sorry i don't really know it's just that in theory okay cool um so yz money actually asked uh earlier um so two questions essentially first one is um uh is there a difference for liquidity mining on a perpetual contract versus other platforms and secondly how much volumes are you expecting your platform to handle okay yeah those are good questions so i think the first one is um so our equity mining is very different from um from the recruiting mining people are doing right now um so people are doing um so they'll be quick in mind people are doing right now mostly for the ranking protocol or the exchange so either being the quick provider or be the lending provider so you put the token in the pool and then you earn new tokens so that's how it works but for us because we don't really have recruitment provider in our system so what we do is that if you trade on the platform we reward you on the uh we actually pay you the transaction fees so it's more like transition money so the fees actually more than the fee you pay but uh we we lock the token up to a year so you kind of like uh we're actually thinking changing it to like linear unlock so you have to got that token but you actually earn more token when you change 23 but uh it's not so you still have to pay for the fees at the beginning but i think that that's the way we want because for us the most important i mean stakeholder is trader so we need more traders we want people trade down here so i think that's uh something we want to provide so it's very different so it's actually you trade on the platform it's not like you lock token here okay and the second question is uh how much volume we can handle i think that's more a question of how much volume ethereum can handle right i think that's uh um for us i think we don't really have that department i think it's all on ethereum itself i mean the steering is like it is i mean it's it has more much more i mean like violence it can handle now so it's uh actually for us it's actually a very big problem right now because we actually are ready to launch our maintenance but the gas is so high so i i doubt people are going to check here so i think that's actually the main issue we have um otherwise i don't think um for this it i mean we don't have a cap on the opening trees that are good things so we don't really have a boundary on the system i think it's uh it's uh i mean ethereum has to fix something or we have to move to that too yeah i was just going to mention whether you have any you've had any discussions or thoughts about changing to earn layer 2 chain uh yeah actually we are working on that when you have we kind of have these charts but you know we compare everything uh i mean so i mean the problem of there too is that almost everything you see here is not a main net if that's a maintenance that's another trend so i mean there are only like a few we can we can use so that's i think that's a big problem yeah yeah okay uh there's some other questions here um so just now you mentioned uh on balanced cell there can be a change of weights uh is that done automatically or can any lp liquidity provider change it or what how does that work okay because that's a good question so balancer actually uh is they have different concepts of pools so they have share pools so people okay most of the pools are share pools so for sharepoint is that once someone created who create this they cannot modify this so they cannot cannot modify anything like the ways like uh like add a new asset they cannot do anything on the pool it's kind of like a re-only pool so that's a sharepoint they also have a private pool so for private pool actually you can update everything you can update fees you can add new assets you can do a lot of things but people cannot provide equity on the public pool so it kind of like uh protect the equity provider so people will now like accidentally join that pool and then got lost so the lbp is a new one so they actually create a new pool that's actually they can it's kind of like a private pool but you can add i mean you can have different people to become the recruiting provider but the rule is preset so you can set like if you want to have the the weight change and then you can you have to specify the start time the end time and then how you will change something like that ync start i mean you can actually update that but uh it's kind of like a precise thing so you have to be said that once you set the weight will now change automatically you have to have someone become the keeper kind of like update the weight i mean if you want or for every older you should go you should maybe update the weight first because you might get a better deal so that's how it works okay so um if i understand it right you can someone can still change the weight afterwards um is that person like voted on or no it's actually someone can update the weight but the weight actually is pretty fine so like uh so for example we have a poor with like 80 20 80 eat 20 die and then i want to have this like in a week change from 80 to 20 and then die 20 change from 20 to 80 and then i can set like so 80 to 20 in in seven days so once you set you actually start i mean you start the counting but the weight actually won't change unless you call a certain function called update so you have to update weight so a keeper must like constantly update weight so that's actually how it works yeah so the the people who update the weights cannot change that parameter it's just like help to kind of like rebalance the weight okay um and i think we're almost a lot of time but i i squeeze in like one or two last questions um and we try and uh keep it short i'll try and keep it short so um so when you mentioned the lbp uh sale just now uh it sounds a bit like the reverse dutch option uh i believe is what it's called that gnosis did uh where um the price like naturally drops over time but in their case he actually ended up with people like formoing and bought a lot at a you know at a much higher price than what they expected so is that something that might happen here as well um i think it's um i think this curve looks like a real reserved dutch option but i think mechanical wise is very different because you cannot buy out all the tokens and then the result uh the dodge auction actually when you clean the price goes down i mean when the price moves to like uh 50 cents it stays here but for balance you could push trapping poor it's um it's different if there is a big order here actually the price will go up i mean it's actually it's still a better support or it's still like a unison pool but with a constant selling pressure so it's more like the people i mean like there are people like selling like tokens at any given time so so the price actually there is a selling pressure on the tokens so i think that will be if you think about this and then that would be more i i mean more like the balance of lbp it's it's actually very different from the dodge option okay cool uh thanks okay so i think uh we want to give so um there was some questions from community members about how to participate in um perpetual protocol um token sale or liquidity mining so um uh temple we can spend like just a couple minutes to to uh explain a bit more how people can uh participate sure uh so i think there are two ways to if you are interested in getting our token so the first thing is that the token can be used for governance and also for scaling why you want to skate is that you can actually have skating rewards so we have this like rewards too so it's like in flashing so we will reward the speaker so that's the first thing the second thing is that you can get a piece of the transaction fees so the trader pays fees and then skater can earn the fees it's more likes and psychics how exactly it works so so that's uh that's the advantage of being a speaker yeah and how do you get the token there are two ways the first thing is that you can buy from the balancer pool so you can buy actually you can buy when the balancer lp lbp pool launch so we schedule the launch yes actually next monday don't but please don't buy it if you listen to this call don't buy it at the first few hours because you'll get wrecked i mean like uh if you are going in here i i i don't really think you understand why i'm talking you should i mean stay like maybe like i mean like check out chicken song like second day that's uh that's something i would suggest but um this is i think going through this personally i think the price will be lower because the design but it's just in theory it's just interior i mean like um it's always a risk for any tokens i mean like we you know we is is something we build we need skater for certain parts of the system that's because skater provides some kind of um kind of like um security to the system but uh uh but but but anyway if you want to get the tokens of one thing goku bandwidth you can always buy buy from like balancing like in a week in a month in a year so you should be there so you can you can pick up if you want so the second thing is that you can do that you could be mining between mining like i said when you put when your platform launched you can just trade you check here i mean we will rebate the our own token to you and then that i think that actually we have more token that we are going to i mean like um uh default to the trader at the beginning so i think that would be a good opportunity to get more token yeah so i think that's the two ways to get tokens so just to clarify um so liquidity mining it's uh both when you provide liquidity and trade or just one of the two trades oh system we don't need equity providers so no one equality yeah okay um so so if you provide liquidity on balancer for example there's no uh reward for doing that uh there will i mean like i but uh i think the reward will be like short period we just probably want to build up something quickly on that on balance that's it yeah it will be will not be like a long term thing makes sense uh john says asking uh we probably can get bal token for doing that do you know if if um users would get that get a balancer token because uh what i understand is you get the bal token for providing on some tools yes uh uh so uh so i think he's asking about the fella said the quick bootstrapping pool i'm like the lbp so for this actually only the perp i mean only the the poker itself we we are the provider because no one has perp okay right so i think we are the lp i actually never think about this i think we will get some like uh bl tokens but in the future i mean like we will so after this i mean if i figure period we will actually create another sharepool and then we put token on the sharepoint why you want to do that is because the sharepool i mean it's more like street so people have less concern about the conflict because on a private pool you have you you will have a new user that can control everything so sharepoint is is better so we'll have a sharepoint and at the time if at that time if you provide equity to that pool i think you will get the plo token okay and um another thing to clarify uh on the buying from the lbp um when you say you wait for a few hours that's assuming a rational market right because we know the crypto market's not necessarily rational and someone might buy in early expecting the price to go up by a lot higher um so that could happen as well yes that that could happen that could happen but um yeah so i would say this is more like than theory i i really don't have a good answer for this uh but um i think um but this is a curve i mean like this i mean so you can see that the price goes down at the beginning very fast so i don't really have any even if some people buy it here i don't think you can you used to like like you know go in the pool here because it go the price skill i mean the weight skill change even even if you got the token here it actually can go down from there so i just don't feel that it's a rational thing to do okay yeah i'll be interesting to see uh how it actually turns out yeah just for for learning stick um yeah so um thank you uh unless anyone has any final questions we're uh a bit overtime uh on on tempo's uh section um yeah if not uh thanks a lot temple for for sharing with us um no problem we're gonna be discussing uh sort of some liquidity mining and yield farming uh just open discussion uh so you're free to join um for that um but if you're not able to that's fine as well i'm going to share a google doc here so for those of you who've done this before you you'll be very familiar um i'm going to share the link into the zoom chat and then people can edit on there directly or please feel free to chip in with your voice as well um but yeah so um just to uh keep things off uh so that's liquidity mining um first of all uh just to give a very basic agenda to it uh we have about 20 minutes um so just to go over what it is and some pros and cons of doing that um so i'll just give my understanding of liquidity mining and people can can correct me for anything that's missing and if anyone wants to chip in as well again i think you can unmute yourself already and so now you should be able to admit yourself and yeah you can um add in your thoughts as well so my understanding of liquidity mining is i the way i explain it to my uh my non-crypto friend is if uh grab allowed people to get some grab shares whenever they are either a passenger or a driver um and immediately after the ride is over they can sort of sign in to their stock market booster malaysia account and immediately sell that shares off uh to a secondary market out there uh and um they can do that also for let's say if maybach were giving the bank shares um and you can even say if me bank were to to give shares you could lend out those shares to someone else to get a reward from say grab so you can cycle through those rewards as well oh yeah johnson has some notes on yield farming just open it johnson do you want to add to that introduction wow that's a new okay that's um [Music] i've been doing this for like a month plus i think it's quite interesting in this space about all these farming things but i just want to give like a precautions about all these things it's really really risky always do your own research and this article are just for educational purpose only and again it's really really really risky if you don't understand what you're doing trying to go ahead um yeah i think for you farming basically it's just gamifications layer on top of how you distribute your token um yeah i think i think in this article i i i i written out a few things that you should look out when you want to farm this stocking whatsoever um yeah i think this uh basically uh how can you scroll down with it so i have a few definitions and all those stuff uh towards like a few things that you can take a look um i think the best article i think so far i read uh about reading to really understand your farming is from the daily grade written by one the founder of token sets anthony so he shared about he shared about a type of yield farming and what kind of things that people have been um designing and building and all those stuff yeah so uh he classified newfoundland into three categories uh which is in my article i also share like three uh different kind of strategies i kind of categorizing them into all these different strategies and some of them are other strategy and towards the end there's like a way that because all this year farming is very risky and if you are you have only have small capital you shouldn't try all this thing because the guest fee gonna kill you um yeah i think that basically layouts uh if you've got time to stick a ring into all this thing i think this is mainly for my note size i i really didn't prepare much uh on my my m for this but i think this would be a very good uh summarize uh i've been reading like a lot of smart contracts on new contracts this is really crazy though every day there are more than five six new projects launching and you see them just copy each other yeah so um i have a question um a bit maybe slightly off-topic my understanding is there's essentially generally three types of um um sort of yield farms uh there's the y fee type where there's like an investment fund uh and then there's the the yam type just like a rebasement and there's like the sushi swap type where it's a amm and you like provide liquidity are there other types of yield farming out there uh those are the most popular one that get a lot of attention there are smaller one like uh instant device mining from uh amber fourth gazer uh uma also have like instant device uh farming for i forget what's the poorly i think there's this is in the article um i think mainly uh just we are talking down the hype uh it's classified as called what we call a flash farm it's not really sustainable it's just meant for you to normally farm for maybe a few days and then and then everything just kind of dies it's not really sustainable so these are more towards opportunities like if you willing to risk all your capital just to get a new token that there's no guarantee there's a value of it um yeah you can go ahead and do it so that's what happened in the flash farm kind of concepts so the second part of the uh um there are a lot of flash forms these days uh so the second one is more like uh incentivized so some of the lp because if being a liquidity provider on unit swap balancer is not really profitable and you expose yourself to the something called impermanently risk which a lot of people don't understand and i suggest you go and research about it if you want to do your me really study sorry about it i personally experienced it and i learned it the hard way okay i paid the tuition fee um so what what this the second method call incentivize liquidity pool is that some of the projects when they just first started they want to incentivize people to provide liquidity because if you they don't have this instead device program uh nobody want to expose to the internal memories and and put money into being a lp provider so these are the second way about sustainable incentives and the third way is more organic which is what we normally call sustainable farm uh this is more towards like you can take a look on who's the fyi they have a very creative list about what kind of tools that you can uh provide lp nobody people prefer like two sites of similar kind of token like uh s usd or dive then you reduce your your your risk from implementation because both of the docker are quite stable they won't have a very drastic move in the prices uh yeah i think also added a small part about hype and steve because that was like the long time ago there there's a mechanism on chain on that blockchain that you can literally land your land your token to other people but the token is locked on your own self and then you just delegate to that person and then that person can use that talking to vote on a post and incentivize others uh post so this was like a mechanism back in like three four years ago where i was like first exposure to something like own change delegating and then get money and it's quite interesting because that one uh during that time you can get like what 40 40 apy for maybe you can release it for maybe a few weeks and it's totally everything is done on change so uh you don't need to risk that your your token uh going to uh go wrong or someone steal your token um and you can just remove the token any point of time and the payment is done on a daily basis and the last part would be other kind of farming maybe based on leveraging or maybe like the the comp the com uh com talking farming a lot of people like to uh during the the start of the year farming there's a com talking farming strategies where you will leverage your borrowing with your contact and you just keep on borrow a lot of token yeah and then uh these are all these things about farming which is a lot of work to study a lot of ways if you're a lazy farmer just and you're a small farmer just use the last part of this too lazy to farm small volume on the safe gas course use automated market farmer sushi farm i was studying the code is very interesting it's done by an engineer from uma uh yvonne from wyoming finance and then there's others like token says api finance which is coming out soon yeah i think that's the tldr about your farming i think it's a very broad concept that covers a lot of different platforms so that's why it's very hard to summarize in like just 10 minutes so this is just a very quick view about how it works okay i think uh we're all gonna have to like uh read over um over the next few days or so just to go to the whole list um gw asks why each vault is it good or not um uh i i saw the yield is very high they think it's like 90 percent ui i'm not sure how it works i haven't really have time to take a look into it because they just departed through this uh i think yesterday or this morning yeah i actually i have a tweet i saw um about how it works i'm just gonna share in the chat um i haven't properly gone through it myself uh but it has like a nice infographic so if you go over it and you can feel free to share with us as well uh later um okay so we're about 10 minutes left yeah i'm gonna make sure we we at least cover some of the other points and to me it's very interesting also is to discuss like the pros and cons of liquidity mining um so i guess we can first start with the pros and um uh temple i guess you you you were um you should be able to share the pros as well but maybe for from an outsider who's not running uh a project that's doing it uh one way i can definitely describe is um i i've used to work for a a project that did an ico and one of the big problems that i think many people didn't anticipate was literally the price to list on an exchange and that could make take up like a huge chunk of any fundraise and with something like liquidity mining you create hype around your project and you can see like even with comp when they first did it they got suddenly they were listed by a lot of these um big exchanges where if they didn't have liquidity mining they probably would have found it a lot harder to list or a lot more expensive so that's one pro definitely that i can see for the project um yeah yeah um actually i agree i think that um it's just one way i mean like uh you're pretty mining definitely one way the other way of course is that your product is free i mean like uh it's well i mean like uh i mean well they will come and then people are using your product i think that's also one way i think that's uh that's the thing we want um i think that uh so we are not doing dirty quicking um okay i think the problem of get cookie mining is that um there are lots of projects they i mean all you think about of that project is equity mining i think if that's the case then it's probably not a good sign i mean like um you will fail i mean like it will fail probably sometimes i mean it's a usage so you are a user so you go to the project all you think about is that how much sushi i can get then i think it's really i mean the chance of that that project becomes successful it's really low but uh for why earn actually i like wiring i mean like uh we're actually not not really doing any quickie mining just kind of like token distribution to the curve pool at that time two weeks and then that's it but why aren't i people remember wire because it provides all different volts different strategy and then it's a robo advisor so i think that if i remember why owner is a robo advisor and then i think it's actually better so that's how i think but at the same time i also put monkey in sushi shop because because let me tell you this so because i read the tweet i mean like just a person account actually our investors account twitter account and then the description said do you want to do you want to be making money or do you want peop to be right so i i kind of like understand kind of understand this he's a very famous trader so i kind of understand that not everything has to be right i mean like something like that yeah um and i think you touched on one good point also for the um like potential sort of investor um and i don't necessarily agree with this hundred percent but there is a a sense of having a fair launch where um you know if you do uh completely liquidity mining from the start uh no vc has a like a advantage over you no person technically speaking uh who has like better connections or you know geographically is in a better place uh get to kind of like front run you uh on a on a sale so that's one pro as well so even if you're a nobody um there is an element of guest prices where you know if you're not a person who's who's uh rich enough or crazy enough to spend higher gas prices then you don't get to necessarily benefit from from the liquidity mining um actually i i don't really agree on this personally i don't agree so actually i don't i'm kind of a hundred percent don't disagree why is that because all this including mining are queers oh i mean like you think they are not vc no they are yeah vc's they are miners lots of chinese miners they just put oh all they can into because i mean the fees they don't care about the fees why because actually they are miners they take package their own transaction right so they don't care about this and then they just put everything there i mean like those are people how do you tell a bc and uh and well to me that's the same i mean that's rich people i mean the whole like equity mining is rich people scam why because the richer get the most tokens right i i personally don't think this is a fake game i mean i don't have people talking about philanthropy i don't it's not fair at all i mean like if we have a quiz like everybody taking the quiz and then i think that's fair about that but i mean like in some way but anyway i don't i don't i don't really think this is fair yeah their job is very popular i guess there is one element of like if you don't have a connection like you know if you're a silicon valley or or shanghai kind of investor then if it's a kind of a vc race or even an ico with a pre or pre-sale then you might be able to get in because you know people whereas if it's uh liquidity mining um let's say both sides are rich but if you don't know anyone you can still um are able to come in so it's fairer for the rich people not necessarily fairer for the not rich people maybe okay i agree with i agree with you all this yeah yeah okay uh then okay we have about okay okay only three minutes left um we can go over the cons um so if anybody has any sort of thing you want to share on on the cons of of liquidity mining um um feel free to to give in the sort of three minutes that we have uh so i can give one uh and it's the kind of very obvious one it's causing all these gas prices uh to go up and um so i read recently there was um someone wrote that there are front running and back running bots they are causing pretty much like 10 of the whole um taking up 10 of the whole um of gas or gold chain uh and it's not necessarily just liquidity mining but liquidity mining gives them a lot more incentive to to spam the network and yeah that's that's not good for everybody else um temple as someone who sorry sorry i think the cons many are just exposed or risky a lot of them are unaudited code so you have to put your state you know like maybe a few thousand a few million on board and then do you trust the code have you read the code yeah and then it just you maybe just spent like five minutes to do a div check is it good enough have you really read through have you really checked where the owner key which owner key is it pointing to and there are a lot of contract maybe they're like five six contracts they point to each other and you're going to scratch your head and then like the rebates from yen it also gets a vulnerability that causes it to uh what they call inflationary create like a law yeah yeah i think that there's a lot of things that people don't care right now but soon when there are a lot more cases of scams i think people are aware about importance about a code being audited right now i think everyone just want to put in all your mistakes because they are following like oh if i don't go in uh i'll be late i can't get the token yeah i actually think that if and this is kind of a very bad thought but if only that yam bug resulted in in all the stake being locked away then maybe people would be a lot more scared to essentially gamble but yeah that would have been like 600 million of people's money and yeah that's not a really nice thing to happen uh yeah and then what sushi swap did also quite interesting they launch it and then they say oh we're gonna take apart the funds and then we pay for an audit so it's like launch first order later well i mean you can also argue that as a pro because if you were like assuming you were a project that didn't have much funds uh you could bootstrap yourself to afford um an audit where before that you might not have the funds to to pay for it um but i think it can be argued both ways i was going to ask temple as someone who is doing liquidity mining do you have any cons that that you personally would like to share um no i think we touch base everything i mean yeah be careful don't get wrecked i think that's it those like so they are like a kimchi today or like something i forget you just i mean like i think there are lots of scams also in the article i also share like a few rap cases so do take note when you read all these right cases because you always see the good side of things like all those liquidity api seven figures apy yeah it's like you've never seen before but it's not sustainable maybe it only lasts for two hours and then it's gone it's even faster pace than even i like all these things it's getting faster and faster because seriously even like yeah maybe like two three days uh wi-fi maybe took like two weeks and now we're talking about maybe two hours but i was driving back home and then there's a new farm coming out i was like oh okay i can't miss out i was just told by a professional yield farmer earlier today that he hasn't slept more than two hours for the last two days so yes you can't sleep that's a very risk and i think i i assume everybody here knows this but a good thing to also share is that never send tokens to a token address i think there was recently i think [Music] yes so yeah please don't do that because no one can save you um but yeah okay thanks uh uh thanks guys for for the discussion we are a bit over the time i do wanna make sure people can uh go off um on time so that next time you might wanna join us again um so yeah uh thanks again uh temple for sharing your time um this is recorded so if you feel like you missed certain part or you didn't understand temple you can watch it later and then uh tempo do you mind sharing a link to your telegram group so that if anyone wants to ask any further questions uh they can ask yeah you can put it in the chat window um and yeah so ekl we do have a telegram group so all the links that was mentioned earlier in the monthly roundup and um any perpetual protocol related links i will share in the telegram group as well um so yeah temples check the link there so please join that group if you are if you have more questions to ask and yeah so thanks everybody uh again uh tomorrow 5 30 pm there is a crypto malaysia meetup at asia blockchain center uh so if you're free uh feel free to join is hosted by aaron king who is a vice president i think of access malaysia um and there's a lot of other people who'll be there as well in the local space so yeah um if nothing else thanks everybody for joining uh remember uh 7th september i think is the uh when lvp starts but wait a few hours uh if you don't want to pay for a high price or if you don't trust in the rationality of the market then go in a bit earlier thank you for having me yeah yeah thanks thanks a lot tempo see you guys bye