Liberate Data Week Hackathon - Day 6 - Open day

[Music] yes i know we could have come up with a shorter title but we wanted to make it very self-explanatory um on this saturday it's already the sixth day of the week uh so it's almost coming to an end as a week has seven days tomorrow we will be having presentations of the projects and of course a very interesting jury who will judge um the project those will be presented tomorrow i think around four o'clock in the afternoon that's central european time uh for today uh we have quite a full program which is surprising because this is called open day and we interpreted this the organization as a day off and suddenly in the last couple of days so many projects came forward and said like yes but we want to present um our projects we want to talk about stuff and so this open day has become a quite full program maybe even the fullest program of the entire week so to start with um we're gonna have a panel um if this would be a real life event we would be on stage sitting in very comfortable shares and you know talking about very interesting topics um this panel will be uh constanza and maria uh with gollum um kiki should be here anytime soon uh for storm city um grace dorelas is here she does um blockchain for goods and many other things we'll talk about that and the conversation topic we will be having is um about the cultural shifts in society meaning that we feel decentralization popping up everywhere and what this means um the fun thing is i think this is an all-women panel so i'm looking very forward to that of course um after that we have um a demo by dimitri um about that much then we'll hear from vizion one of our you know i think one of our favorite projects partners nicolas will present this um then we will have rogelio talk about uh ipld document signing with finance smartsheen cid i don't know what this but we're gonna learn all about that then uh will and lewis with grassroots economics are going to present um their basic income community currency and decentralized exchange then the future of online gaming this is going to be a fun one by petra from atelier ludensis i think i'm pronouncing this correctly it sounds french um and then eterna my inside vision eterna mirko is going to be talking about that very interesting as well upala the price of forgery and digital identity then we will be listening to a pre-recorded presentation decentralized storage integration and to end it all today the minerva wallet using swarm for backup in a mobile identity in crypto wallets by thomas all these projects that i've been mentioning like for the last minute i guess uh are grants recipients uh so this means they are getting a ground from the swarm uh association or foundation um to develop these wonderful um things uh i think yeah we'll see afterwards if you can still apply i'm not quite sure but this is like um the first the second and the third wave of ground speed it um and these are like selected projects that we will give the stage to so i would like to start now with our panel which i will be sort of moderating but i i will also be like participants so i don't know how to do that exactly but can i please ask um our panel uh to unmute and show yourself um on the video cameras so maria and grace and constanza and what else do we all have here like so many people just show yourself and you can also just unmute i i mean we're not the kind of people that are going to talk over each other right that was really cool grace by the way what did you just do [Music] i mean with your video what did i do what did i do yeah so first your video was like blurred oh you just cleaned it i thought you had like a spyware or like you know inspire protection thing on your webcam or something like that um so um maria so uh dashboard can you unlock maria's um camera or video please so um while we are all um getting ra there you are maria so while we are all excuse me um yes i i it might be i know it's a little bit chaotic but you know it's an open day so anything goes basically um and the so people might join us i can hear kiki walking into the apartment so she will be joining us in a couple of minutes um ah can i call you maria how should i address you mp maria mp is fine mp okay i'm just going to say ambiden costanza are you i can just say constanta whatever you want well okay but let me get creative i mean i'll just think of that and then great of course grace let's start with you can you please in like a minute maybe just uh present yourself and tell us who you are and what you do and uh why uh i think you're amazing grace please go ahead wow that's a tough one but um yeah can can you hear me is it okay yes yes can you hear me okay the connection is a little bit like unstable like getting heavy yes okay perfect perfect so i'm grace torellis i think so yes and i think i have a little bit of a delay as well so uh happy to be here thank you for inviting me i'd love to be on this panel i'm grace i humanity i'm a co-founder there blockchain for humanity is a foundation whose mission is really to see how we use this technology this amazing technology that surrounds us blockchain and crypto and everything that i that we actually are passionate about but for the use of social impact so making sure that we're using in a way that actually elevates humanity in a way that this technology should be sort of heading towards and it's actually to make our lives better right and it should be uh the way that we that we normally would want to implement this so we go after particular use cases have proven to have that such impact as i as i mentioned and as a foundation what we do is we support them so we identify we reward them we give them an award and then we work out with this uh projects very closely throughout the year and brizzy and i think that's why you think i'm so great not only that i only think you're great because you have been giving a tremendous contribution not only to swarm and the presentations but also to the blockchain space in general i mean in in the past when we could still travel and be together i've seen you interact and engage with you know a lot of the people i look up to very much like my personal heroes and i know you help them also in communicating and you know translating their brilliant ideas to something you know people like us can understand and so i that's the reason why i think you're truly amazing because you you have the ability to translate you know very technical things to human um human understanding so and b is it i think it's a bit weird for me to cmp but i'm getting used to it so it sounds really cool and b can you can you maybe do the same just like introduce yourself please yeah sure so mmp actually maria paula but it's too long i am argentinian and i work at golem right now i'm one of the advisors to the board and i also have berlin which is a non-profit from where we run uh ethereum testnet we do hackathons and a bunch of things more yes are you are you often in berlin i live here oh you live in berlin okay yeah yeah i live here that's i that's closer than i expected that's right you should definitely need that um okay constanza can you please introduce yourself yeah hi i'm costanza i'm italian i'm based in rome actually and i work with mp as a community manager for golem as well awesome thank you so much yeah and maybe quickly remind people what golem exactly is because you know sometimes this is like in a faraway memory yeah for sure so golem is um first of all it's an old uh ethereum project we actually call the story i have to interrupt immediately you call it old well it's from 2014 so okay we were born almost at the same time as ethereum and actually presented on a devcon zero so yeah it's it's old it's all that good and what we do is basically we provide a protocol for the exchange of digital resources and one of them can be idle computing power yes it's it's a i always love to go you know right from the start um so we are sort of awaiting kiki but you she might join any any moment and then we'll just you know do this for her all over again um so let's dive into the conversation like you know we together we sort of try to come up with like a topic or like you know how this is like a hanger where we could say like okay this is a topic and we can you know these are like things we can talk about um the i think the main thing we all kind of feel is that you know it's like you said mp like even from like 2014 2015 even if you don't look at the blockchain space and the decentralized space um in society a lot of things started to change i would i would argue that people now more than ever have their own beliefs are in their own bubbles not corona goals but i mean like intellectual cultural bubbles where they actually believe stuff that might not even be true or might be true um and um kiki is joining us and um so you know it would be interesting for us to just you know quickly have uh everyone's thoughts on how this is actually impacting society and the way we live together and you know work together and communicate together so um oh but before we do if that's okay please hold this thought kiki are you there you're muted hello hello welcome so this is kiki can you please like for 60 seconds introduce yourself yes hello i'm kiki um i've been in the whole blockchain space since i think 2017 something-ish and i've been working with swarm city in the beginning for a few years and uh like mostly on the organizational level so i've been working with a lot of um developers and other people and mostly it were men so it's always fun to see other women and michelle asked me to like just join you guys and i don't know if i can contribute on any thought or whatever so that's why i'm here so yes so the the main topic as we just discussed is the decentralization and what it means um you know for the entire society not only for our space so grace can you could do what are your thoughts on this well i i really like the sub ecosystem from the beginning right and this is where we actually understood what decentralization meant about it before this time but it wasn't uh until we were part of this ecosystem to really understand how autonomous and how power people can be at the end right that there hasn't there doesn't have to be a centralization per se in order to make things work and what it's uh giving me at least the last six years that i've been doing work in this particular space is that it really just makes you very autumn [Music] enforce you to make decisions but it has been a kind of a bubble because we we do understand this interpretation our environment much different than the people outside understand decentralization and one thing that that occurred to me when i was thinking about the topic itself the old coronavirus has given us a view you know beyond this ecosystem beyond the beyond our own world is the world a different view of what decentralization is and the power that it actually carries right because i was just part of a project not too long ago that a complete best way we have never met and there's a product coming out and we have never seen each other personally and i think that that's that's amazing you can actually have this uh sort of mode of collaboration this mode of making decisions and and communicating but also producing something important and it doesn't have to bring anyone into an office or into a centralized uh you know environment to be able to make the great decisions and to move forward so it had me very um i was the inspiration to keep going this and and came for decentralization because for me generally it's it's the way that i would go in any type of environment or okay grace um i'll interrupt here a little bit because your connection sometimes you're dropping out which is a shame because it's really interesting always to hear you talk um but maybe you know this will go but this will um be fixed automatically i guess um so um mp if i you can ask you like how how do you think about do you think like i and i and not that i want to be negative in any way but you know we always tend to talk about like the positive effects of decentralization and it's of course because you know we all gained um um a lot of value and i don't mean even monetary value but like value in collaboration and being being able like race set to work with anyone in the entire world to come up with things but what what do you see mp as the you know the negative effects of decentralization and then especially about like belief systems so with regards to belief system i don't think there's nothing wrong with the centralization i think that a multi sort of thoughts and opinions is actually good and but i do believe that there is a fundamental problem to you any decentralized in big infrastructure or societies and is the coordination problem uh you know when there is no central leader there are different cells of leaders or different cells of uh nodes or whatever you want to call it and then it takes a lot of effort to uh coordinate and and to make sure of course there's no bad actors of course there's different systems put in place be with them dowels or um technical mechanisms or you know even algorithms that are able to protect us from bad actors but a coordination is always a a really big pain point that i don't think that it's fully solved by by anything especially because even in dallas there is some certain risk with collusion and a and tampering and whatnot and so i think that there is a still work to be done yeah i would like to maybe uh go to kiki do you see any solutions that i think like the coordination problem is a very interesting one like like you know how are what are what are ideas around like working together in a very decentralized way and come and even like the dial but like it's true with them be said right like there is a big coordination problem like everybody is going in their own directions and it's just you know doing whatever they want basically so what is a way to to you know to make sure that something gets done in the end yeah well i think it's it's something that every organization has to figure out how to do that even if you're i mean if you're physically together or if you're not it's a matter of um i would say like um setting common goals but then again in a decentralized world when you like if you we often talk about it like the difference between decentralization as in the product is decentralized or decentralization do you have to work decentralized like it doesn't necessarily have to be both the same you know if you are making decentralized products or decentralized um yeah whatever tool or whatever you're making uh you can you can do that in a in a way that you just set goals and say like okay this is what we're gonna do we'll do it let's say we meet each other tomorrow or like in a week or whatever and this and this is gonna be done who's gonna do what and then it's not in that case it's not a really decentralized way of working you know it's not like everyone does whatever he or she wants and we'll see whatever comes from it or this and that so i think that that's one way to do it another way to do it is just like you know like let's let the thing flow and see whoever contributes to something more like open source development like but then you never know what you're gonna get because no one is actually leader or no one is steering something at a certain direction so i think there's different ways to do it and i'm not sure what which one is good or is the best or whatever so from all the experience i have in different kind of organizations i think it's like wherever i'm at right now is make sure that everyone feels happy what they're doing i think that's a good start you know like what you're doing you feel proud about it and you're happy about it and then the way you do it if you have a really hierarchical structure whatever or like boss but everyone's happy like okay that's fine um if you're okay with some product going away that you're not you know like you don't know at the beginning where it's gonna end at if that's how you what makes you happy like okay i'm fine with it then it's good too so i yeah for some i don't have um specific way like this is the best way to do it and i think every kind of organization has its flaws or it's trouble you know like there's always gonna be friction between people um like oh i thought we were gonna go that way and now it's gonna go that way but so it's always a matter of like okay coming together like who feels who's happy about things who's not like speaking up if you're not happy um enabling enabling people to speak up like you know like don't say like what you're saying is stupid just listen to everyone in an organization and then it doesn't really matter what kind of structure you have like as long as everyone say everyone can say what they think and yeah then i think it's it's it will go somewhere fun um can i absolutely sure yeah please go ahead yeah i feel that uh striving for happiness of an entire group is a very very nice goal but it's a a little bit abstract and really hard i i like i actually congratulate anyone that can achieve that and i would be super impressed i think that uh a simpler way to do it is uh boiling down what it means to each other each of us to work it together and then aligning incentives and aligning goals and that's you know that's you know of course it's not as good as happiness but it's a good start to make sure that everything's on track yeah i agree with you like the happiness factor it's like very abstract it's true but it's like in an organization you always have to set like what's most important right you know like is this going over this or so you kind of make a hierarchy in whatever you want in your group of people and i think just okay happiness is too abstract but if you say like people can i think the most important thing is if people don't feel good about something that they can tell someone or can can can throw it in the group because that like that way you can change things and then the happiness is you know like derived from that like not being able to steer something it com comes makes people feel um you know anxious or whatever so yeah michelle you were gonna yeah no so costanza you have been doing community management you know how you know what what so it i guess it's like quite challenging right to keep the community happy and end up but happy as you said it's almost like a very naive thing but let's define happiness as um people feeling the security and the ability that they can reach their goals and you know feel proud about that right at least that's what makes me feel happy but because have you felt like and he said it's like in the community almost like the emotionality is like in one stream like where people come together and and how do you manage this [Music] yeah i think that yeah like the way to and the challenge to keep people happy is to to keep people informed because being happy means being content where you are and being content where you are requires a lot of awareness about what are the challenges what is being done to make you content about where you are and and that requires putting in a lot of effort on the part on the side of the community manager and also on the side of people because you can be content if you don't have a full picture of where you are but having the food picture requires you to actually um put in a lot of efforts to understand everything that's happening around you you know like i think that is the main challenge um it's like on the personal side is finding and putting in the personal effort to yeah to being fully aware of what's happening and what are the challenges and yeah the the road map ahead and that of course is it doesn't come easy because then everyone um has their own personal life going on so um it requires a lot of education so i think there is a very human limits to that i'm not i don't know if you agree with that yeah so so if i hit it correctly you say basically that and a shared vision a very transparent shared vision like this is where we're going to is it's important for people to feel included um exactly in this so i would like to segue a little bit uh to the next topic if that's okay um the the idea is and it's it's a two-fold idea so i i think everybody can agree uh that we want to address or to have a very diverse kind of um people and let's call them users um for the technologies we are creating and not only like directly for you know a product like golem should be it's probably very abstract for most people but the things you can do on top of that are the things you can do on top of swarm um or on a blockchain these are things that people you know that will touch with normal people call them like users and so uh to me always a big sort of internal conflict is uh that i strongly believe in the idea that code is law and that if you have the ability to write code and to create products that you are very powerful and this is to me almost like a gun-like power because you decide where people are going to click and what will happen you know behind the scenes if they do that um but of course this is like a totally non-working um idea because if only people that have the ability to code and actually create these tools are in power of you know who's gonna use them and what they will be doing with the tools um then i don't know i i feel like we would go to a dystopian kind of future so i would like us to talk about um i don't know the answer by the way i seriously don't know the answer i've been thinking about this for years what can we do to make sure that the things we built in our ecosystem um you know are working for a very large uh number of people from a very diverse background and i would love to start with kiki because she has been very hands-on in you know creating products um on the blockchain basically yeah the the whole thing about what you said people who are able to code they decide everything it was a mantra that i heard when like a few years ago from all the guys like if you know if you're not coding you don't have anything to say basically that's what they said um i strongly disagree because i think it's very um well from a certain point of view it's it's true right if you're like if you're coding you can decide whatever goes in it but i think it's not very smart to think that way it's like if you develop a car you want the car to be driven by women by men by this like a certain amount of disabled people you know like you're not gonna make a car that's for blind people but you know you're gonna include as many people as as possible i think it's the same for products you develop like for apps or whatever like digital tools um and the only thing to to to build something that's inclusive for like a lot of people you have to have people testing it or like using it or like you know you have to get feedback from the people itself it's impossible to get into the head of someone else like you cannot think about what like how like as a just say stupid division like men women as a man you cannot know how a woman would use a product not that every woman is the same and every man is the same okay but you know you have to ask women to use it you have to ask children to use it you have to ask old people to use you cannot get into the head of someone else so i think the best way to do that is like build small prototypes and get people using your things and so yeah so i totally agree with that but how are you gonna force in in a decentralized way how how are you gonna force like developers to do that because at the developers i know and oh god please don't get mad at me because i love them but they are basically just doing whatever they want most of the time and and i mean especially because this is a very research and development kind of space still it's not that you know most of them are not really getting paid to to come to do stuff and even if they are getting paid to do stuff in the end they sort of do what they feel is the correct thing to do so i'm going to grace and grace how can we influence you know i know you are extremely active in this in this topic so you know how can you influence people to actually build stuff that is you know for a lot of people and not just for the hacker so we we started in this environment uh dealing with applications and tools that were absolutely difficult to to deal with right like they were completely the opposite of user friendly and they were meant to be used by people that knew how to code and that you know had a certain level of uh of understanding of how this tools would work right behind the scenes so i think we have we have evolved to understand that it cannot stay within that small group of people that in order for any application or any tool or any product to be adopted we have to bring some user friendliness right so i think that this industry has already taken this uh this sort of validation very very very seriously and now we're looking at many type of applications out there that are very user-friendly that are really you know changing that whole mode of bulky you know black screen of tools into things that are really nice and and and you know easy to use and i know because i'm working as well with with projects that i'm doing these things and what happens is that no matter who is doing the code and no matter who is the person behind the coding the truth is in the in the in the customer's eyes right the truth is in the user it's that do you hear me so it doesn't matter how much you put in there a code that you think that's that's what it's going to be it actually needs to be validated by a market out there by people that are going to put it to use right and i think that that's where we are right now we are now focusing in moving away from those bulky tools into things that are actually more user user friendly for people to adopt and i think if if anything that we have discussed until now adoption is all we look for right in the end that's all what we're looking for adopting these tools adopting these protocols adopting these applications adopting is the word that we need to go for and define what does it take to be adopted you know how do we make sure that we check for other people that are not coders and i think that that we're doing a pretty good job i think that we have evolved quite a bit and i love to work with the guys and give them the reality check every now and then so i i only have to pick two or three users uh you know how they experienced it and how bad it was if it was bad and then you know the guys who are putting can get the truth away so it's a you have to show them and you have to put them in their face yeah i i definitely agree with uh your radical honest approach uh the things just you know just show people indeed like developers uh how basically crappy their tools are and how the user is completely lost in an interface and they they will do something else um and b do you see what do you see the same thing like in golem like people building on top of um of golem for instance you know do you see like an evolution in um you know how you call this like user friendliness i guess or like like an opening up to a larger group of people than like 2014 well actually for us we tried first to go on a use case basis thinking that we could achieve um like a larger adoption that way and then we realized that that was not how it worked we overlooked the user experience and we made a lot of assumptions on the profile of of how users and our user persona should be what do you mean by that okay sorry to interrupt right i really want to dive into that so you're saying what does this mean we made assumptions on yeah so we basically thought that we had a prosumer uh market and that that was uh confirmed by application developers by requesters and by providers and that the initial use cases should have gone to requesters and providers so requesters of computing power and providers of computing power and we would build the use case to validate our mvp the truth is that uh once we built this uh we we realized that there were a lot of uh of course u.s ux problems and technology had evolved as well because it takes a while to build a project and in the end our target group ended up not being what we expected and they and vice versa we ended up not being what our target grouping is and how did you so what does this mean right right you said to prosumers but what and what kind of target group did you end up with then so we wanted first to direct our efforts towards the market of a cgi animators beats uh you know small animators or big studios and a providers of computing power which could could have been everyone from you uh to a you know a large data center but then we realized that of course the technology was not really ready to go to market with only one monolithic use case and that we weren't a we weren't competitive as well with what was in the market so centralized clouds right so that's why uh yeah we just made the assumption that our product could work for all of these people there are a lot of people and right now we took a step back and we decided to focus on developers which would build a on our building right now because our our protocol is fully functional are building the applications that they want and they make their own assumptions and then you know the general audience will see a fully fledged application built on top of golem which they haven't they they don't have to see you know they don't have to know that the applications the decentralized if they don't want to you know if they want to do their research wonderful if they don't want to that's all right too you know they should just get an application which is as good as the regular applications that are in your phone in your computer or whatever and then and then use them so right now what we're working on preparing a protocol that's robust enough for all these developers to decide their own use cases and uh that in that way you know we're starting smaller because the the developer target group is more finite than a cgi you know animators data centers and all the big animated animation studios and all that i mentioned but at least uh you know we know that we're on the right track by serving the the developers finding out what they need and then you know when we're uh once the protocol is ready people will be able to build a as they build with aws so yeah we shrunk to broaden yeah exactly so you basically um you basically they took a step back and sort of you know we put yourself in a sort of lower position where other people can come in so constanza how did that impact your community like these people are coming um they're coming for a certain vision they are like rallying around a certain vision and then you know suddenly i guess you know more from the deaf team or like like sort of the marketing kind of angle they would say like no we have to take a step back and and you know do things in a different way like like how how do you communicate something like that and how do you manage a community to to get a new vision on that um i think that for now we are we have an amazing community and going back to what we said before most of them are very happy they're very informed and they follow everything that's happening with the technology but it's still very early users so the shift that just mentioned um i think it has yet to happen um i'm not sure if i'm maybe like can say something more about that sure so so what you know we inherited a legacy community that has been brewing since 2014 so when we onboarded costanza and a couple of people more into the community team they were lucky that they got the shiny new platform which has a vibrant community of amazing developers they're super qualified we do still have a token holder community which we appreciate a lot and they are very harsh with us with feedback which is you know the right way to give feedback but some there there is certain restraint on the fact that we decided to basically pivot and start building more for developers because of course the token holder community after four years wants uh you know the projects to sort of explode but the truth is that we would be dishonest to ourselves and to them if we developed a project that we know it's not viable or sustainable long term so you know the it's it's mixed the is too diverse yes that's like a really great segue because i this is not on our list of topics so i'm going to surprise you with this one um but i think it's a very very important topic to touch on which is i more and more i have a problem with this whole idea of tokenization and doing monetary stuff because at least for me um you know i wanted to be in this space and build things because and this is really true i really feel like this technology can change the world and can change how people interact with each other and i always thought like oh there's a direct organization and the old economics of it is just you know a way to to get there or to do things but the reality that i've seen in the last couple of years is that you know it's basically become a little bit like wall street but on steroids right because there is no limits in ups and downs in monetary wise there is no rules whatever you can be totally anonymous so it's it's basically one big no it's not one big but it's a lot of pump and dump and it's a lot of so my if you look at swarm for instance to take you to have this as an example so we as a project and it's also written in in the book of swarm um there's a strong belief that people will run notes and will help decentralization because they can make money with it and i strongly feel that if you look at the past you know of historical like revolutions and and changes in society this was never about money right i mean in the end i know it's about money but the thing is people believed in in a specific thing that needed to be changed and they did it because i know i would call it intrinsic modification where whereas i see with the whole tokenization and and you know the whole grab the money and run sort of culture um you know this is an external uh extrinsic motivation and so i really more and more think that there's like a big problem to this entire economic thing basically and um yeah i don't know the answer to that again but i really wonder if this is the way to go you know i believe that interior for instance it's like a hyper capitalistic system and while this might be good to build technological projects i don't know if um if you're talking about communities and people interacting with each other i don't know if this should be tokenized uh in the form of money so but it's it always will because as soon as you can trade the token there's money involved right so grace what do you think about that about what there was uh there was a lot there i'll try to summarize it so what i believe is okay if you want to build a bridge or a very big project it's a good thing that you incentivize this with money right you say like everybody can buy shares and and then we'll do 10 years of of um you know getting taxes for people that are crossing the bridge and it will be paid back and we have new infrastructure but what if you say like no we want people to interact with each other in an honest way in an open way and create stuff together you know like a better society i believe this shouldn't be incentivized with money or with tokens but with you know i don't know like good will and like i want to do this because i love my fellow man i mean not gendering but you know what i mean right my fellow citizens um so how can we solve this or is it just not solvable i know i know what to do this is a this is a very interesting uh remark because i mean i'm in the space for purpose driven right i i want i want businesses to be built around a purpose and i want to make sure that the purpose is actually clear for the entire organization and that it moved the organization forward all you know kind of harmonized into meeting those goals right and then be able to give something back so it is it is a wonderful idea but the reality is that it's it's not really feasible we have all kinds of uh of aspirations and intentions and we have to live with that and we have to make the best out of it so incentives are a way to start kind of finding certain behaviors and i think that's probably until today it's the best way to start aligning people towards the same goals so incentives be it uh monetary or in any other way they're still incentive the what we see today is there is a there's a there's a propensity to go into the uh into the speculation into the money into the into being able to get that i i don't find that as a as a bad um you know sort of way of of carrying out things i don't find it that that it that it takes away from a purpose or a value that you that you're trying to uh to embrace but it's all in the mentality right and i think there is a um there's a big um component there that if an organization is it's it's or its leaders are conscious leaders it kind of it brings that down to the very bottom you know to everyone in the organization so i think that the leadership has a lot to do with how people you know take things and how people go about doing or carrying on their their work or their activities so values and leadership and conscious leaderships are kind of like those two things are very uh profound in any type of organization and what we see coming out of the organization so an organization as such when it has that strong bearing will will project that very quickly uh to the to the outside world and the people that will come or that will interact with this organization will feel that they are part of the same so there's going to be a an acceptance of values and exchanges because you know we feel that we're similar and the people that are not are not going to be part of that but yeah they're going to be part of something else yeah i don't think that we can avoid that sure i i think that's but i i i would love i would love to totally agree with that but i think the reality is for instance and i want to hand it over to to mp or constanza um um like many people bought a specific token in an ico because they are expecting um they're not even like you know interested in what exactly the norms of values are of a project or what they are willing to change in society etc but they're just saying like oh yes this is the future of decentralized computing i'm gonna buy this token and they better make sure that i have like a thousand percent return on investment in four years um so um mp or constanza you sort of have this you have you started with like a very clear white paper that shifted from that and said like no we need to do a different approach did you feel like these token holders were did they have power over you or the team so not really uh token holders have a lot of power in what pertains to dictating the value of the token but the protocol and is almost completely decoupled right now um we have proven and it continues to be proof that actually a token value does not mean value of tech and that's a cool thing you know i do think that in order to be able to develop freely and without pressure we need to decouple the platform from uh from the token sorry but what does that mean decouple the platform from the top because because the value of the token does not mean that the that the platform is valued in the same way and at the and at the same time uh the the you know the token cannot dictate the fate of the platform the token serves as incentives and it can serve to you know be a utility within the platform but it should be decoupled unless it's you know a platform where you're voting with the token or you're staking to secure the network if that's not our case or our token is a medium of exchange that said uh i i think that there are there are a couple of things that are really interesting to note and for instance what's uh what's you know an intrinsic motivation doesn't mean that it's good or sustainable i think uh one of the uh one of the most interesting things to see is to actually learn about the open source project and the problems it has when a project or a software reaches maintain maintenance stage i actually heard a very interesting podcast with nadia ekbal from the london foundation and she was explaining the problem with a building software and later maintaining it software never is never completed software always needs to continue to be built and the job of the maintainer is very unrewarding it's very boring as well because it's nothing new you're not building something that people will notice and get excited about a software release a patch is not very exciting you know it's something that exists so uh what what she mentions is the problem with maintenance being so unrewarding from a monetary part from recogni and recognition which is something really important in the open source um scene so i do think that actually having a stake a beating token being a a really good pay or something other you know we can think of other thing matters a lot so that's why i think that you know sometimes it's not very easy to just have a really great idea and think it's great for the world because that idea needs to be maintained for sometimes decades uh i think the the oldest open source software is actually around 50 years old so it's very tough and someone has to do it you know someone has to build railroads as well and rail building regular roles is not exciting so that's why i think you know everything should be treated separately and in the end yeah by all means you know it has to be about incentives including money okay well thanks mp um so kiki to to go to you uh still i believe and be it's it's it's it's not a critique but i still believe that the longest during projects in history were has that don't have anything to do with money but with belief systems and with like storytelling and all that kind of stuff um so my i i mean it's naive but um i've been watching star trek um this movie star trek first contact it's called and basically what they say is you know they show you a world where humanity has gone beyond money and poverty and food and so my i really believe that it is so my ideal world would be that with that note and things like swarm people are just helping each other out to create a technological society where you know the basics are just there and we do it because we we want to take care of each other and not because you know i i am going to make a lot of money with it so um kiki you were like new doing doing like you know like shaking your head uh earlier when when i think grace or i was saying like so what was all that about well i was shaking my head as you know when it's about the influence of token holders i think like especially when you have token sales and that and there's just a vast majority of them that are just in there with no interest in the project whatsoever just the idea of okay new crypto projects might go up a lot might make a lot of money so i think we have to take into account that there's like a big part of them that don't really care about what you're making as long as you're legit right they just do a little research like are you frauds or not and that's just the way of how it is right now i think there's like the people getting attracted to the idea of making a lot of money okay as long as you can you know take advantage of that like getting a little bit of money to fund your projects i don't see any harm in that so that's why i think you don't have to be too worried about token holders steering your projects as long as it's not like you know for like voting or anything if it's just they're just in there for the money and they get out once it goes down or up but aren't they voting in a way because if you do for instance a token sale and your whole capital is in your own token and you and you want to use that to build your product and suddenly the market decides like oh yeah this is not interesting anymore then the value of the token drops and aren't they sort of voting then on the future of your project i think in this in this whole space things have gone up and down and up and down again and we see it like with no um link to the the value of your project right like if the whole market goes up every project's token goes up as well if the market goes down every project the project's token goes down so it doesn't mean i think if you if you're smart enough you see it doesn't mean that the project all of a sudden have like gone totally wrong you know it's just the whole market going up and down so you have it's it's a reality in this space that like all the tokens go up and down together with the whole market so decoupled from the value or the whatever they're building so that's one thing if you know that people are not i think will not be too scared like oh my god the token has dropped so the project must have gone duly wrong or something so that's one thing and then the second thing is yeah don't totally depend on on the value of of your token but i guess if it's a it's if it has been a token sale you kind of got other tokens you know like you got ether or bitcoin for a token you know like so in that case you kind of have your little bit of uh starting money to get your project going and then it's just a matter of like maintaining or your funds like or you know keeping an eye on your funds and if the market goes down you know do some some smarts spreading or whatever you know that's i think these are all separate things you know you have the whole wall street kind of thingy with the tokens and then you have project with their money and then you have tokens in your project and these are all a little bit mixed in this space because you know you don't have any control over the markets going up and or down with your little project so gracie you you were raising a hand i think i don't know if you did it by accident or did you gonna respond to that yeah i no i i was just gonna say that we have created this monster i mean it's it's it's us doing this i mean we have created what we have today and there is a this speculation is not going to go anywhere and it's actually going to get worse because there's greed and there is the taste of that of that sort of satisfaction from making that you know 200 percent or 500 or a thousand percent in a matter of just a few days and be able to to gain benefits from that so i think that that's not going to go away but it doesn't mean that everyone is like that and you're saying michelle there is there is a community out there there is there are people out there who have different intentions right yeah i want to ask because we we have to sort of round it up um sorry i just wanted to say that no no no no no i'm i mean we could go on for for another hour i think but to to round it up i would like each one of you to ask and i know it's a bit maybe a silly girly question but i would like to ask all of you like what are you thinking what are the if we're talking about enormous values and like a value hierarchy what is your top number one value if you interact with someone let's say on an event and you just encounter someone someone is coming up to you and it starts starts to bla bla bla talk to you about your project or anything what is the value that you're looking for if you decide that you will continue the conversation with someone at night you know in a bar or something like that you know what i mean it's like it's like you know i know people have come up to me and they start talking about the token price of a project and i'm like yeah i mean ignore and you know i just just walked to to another place um i just started waving at dimitri putri for instance at the conference you know trying to get his attention but you know you know when i feel like um to me the most important thing is if someone comes up to me and starts talking about questioning what we are doing right it's like do you think this is a good thing we're doing and then i'm like okay now now we're gonna have an interesting conversation so um mp what is that for you like when do you decide like okay i'm gonna have a conversation with this person when i'm not busy um basically you know i i think that everything has a its space and its time sometimes a and uh you know from from the old world when we used to go to conferences i i finally found it very very hard to actually start confront a conversations because i am not good in small talking i can talk and run for hours and hours and hours about you know things that i believe on things that i like or general stuff but you know weather conversations are not my job so i think that conferences are great for people that are very outspoken and that are very extroverted for and but but the thing is that we work in a space where most of the people are introverted as myself so you know i think that uh people should be a little bit more aware of allow like thinking of if the person is a little bit reticent or something or is in a hurry you know and it's clearly going somewhere you can see when someone's going somewhere just you know say hello be kind smile and when a person wants to talk to you they will find you trust me you know we have so many social media you can tell people hey let's have a conversation later you know but you always need to be a little bit more empathetic and see body language uh before before doing that and the same for myself i have to you know i have to be better at body language and also listen to what i want to do or you know wait what i should do at the moment i i can't wait to practice that with you in real life at an event um i'm sure we will we will i will keep like meters of distance before i approach you um at a conference that's gonna be a lot of fun uh costanza what are what are the things that trigger you when do you say like okay i'm gonna have a conversation with this person or you're like nah i'm gonna get away from this i think something that is also a very self-critique because it is something i would like to be more and i always make the effort is to be open and welcoming of anyone with any point of views um even the opposite of mine i actually love it and i really like when someone is exactly the same and it's difficult because it requires you to take a step back and you know welcoming whatever comes to you um with anything but i think it gives rises to the most beautiful conversations i've ever had so yeah i think so a difference yeah so someone challenging you or coming with a different opinion is more important than someone echoing what you think right yes but doing that with in a very open way in a very open and welcoming and not judging way i've been to conference where i didn't know anything about the technologies and i had amazing people um explaining to me literally like the basics of the basics and i felt very welcome and made me want to keep talking with them for hours and hours and did it was the best yeah there's not a lot of sleep at the conferences indeed grace um you know same question to you like what kind of conversations do you enjoy the most so i like the conversations that take me to kind of the creative ones so being open being creative being innovative and i like the conversations to be not about a self person but you know bigger than that communities humanities you know kind of like and you can you can tell right away when a person is very much self-centered and uh you know the agenda is to get something for the benefit of that person versus a person that when you talk to they have an interest in something more broader than that right like they they want to be able to to talk and conceptualize and and discuss things that are good for many not just good for one and i think that's uh that what makes it uh very clear to me whether i want to talk to that person or not yes uh yes that's that's who you are grace it's like i love it um same for you if if we are not standing together next to each other at a conference and you know people approach you like what are the what are the kinds of things that trigger you you know into a conversation i'm not running away no i would um no i to begin with i totally agree with what has been said and especially you grace like people that are interested in in the like mankind and how can we evolve whatever that interests me always a lot and i always like to talk with people that are emotionally intelligent i like people that are like on the psychological level thinking of of things and not just into practical things i like to you know like philosophical philosophical way of thinking that's all that always interests me it triggers me and it makes a good conversation for me and um hopefully i can say something intelligent back not always i try my best yeah thank you so much so yeah we have to round it up here i want to thank you all from the bottom of my heart that you could and wanted to participate in this conversation um i think this might be um i think i think this is really interesting to see you know something else than a white male in his 40s talking about technology so i'm very happy we did this and could add this to the library data week um thank you all so very much i just have to like basically throw you out of this zoom call i mean at least you have to disable your camera and mute because we have to move on to the next speaker uh yeah thank you all it was an amazing conversation and i hope to see you all very soon and especially in real life at an event so bye everybody so yes we should have like a tune or a jingle to make this transition a little bit more um funky but we don't have that um so we're just gonna continue with the program um let me look this up so the next speaker is dimitri palchun i hope i'm pronouncing this correctly because um i'm not fluent in this kind of languages um dimitri is gonna talk dimitri are you there you are muted you can you can basically unmute um yeah yeah there you are so did did you hear the like the previous conversation yes yes but i was busy to prepare my presentation as well uh probably i haven't heard everything but one of my ears i was here no that's totally fine so um you're gonna talk about tablets i i suggest that we first listen to your um um talk a presentation and it would be lovely if i could ask you some questions afterwards yeah um i'll try it's a new big quite brief representation um doublet is about uh to insert some kind of augmentations into existing websites and because the existing websites probably doesn't like it although yeah we just don't ask for permission uh that's why everything every models animals from doublets are stored and small okay so i'm going to leave this i'm going to mute myself and and and shut up my video so you can do your thing yeah uh uh what i will do i will just uh show you the video because uh because i have now a lot of times though we have a small video uh for our hackathon uh presentation uh this hackathon presentation that's work in progress but it's currently working you will see what the doublet is and then i will see uh how we develop it uh it's uh you will give briefly understanding how easy to develop uh a doublet uh with a doublet platform so we are developing a platform but you are free to develop doubtless applications on this platform so i have to start to share my screen just a moment screen can i share can you hear me so although you see the youtube channel but it's it's a doublet attached on the channel and you'll see this upload to swamp the button it doesn't belongs to youtube it belongs it's it's augmentations with audition additionally uh it's a doublet and you can just select the quality and you can start upload it in uploading downloading and uploading to the swarm and it's available there becomes available and then it will be done later i hope you will be ready until sunday you will be able to attach it to twitter or to another to another parts in the web so once more what is what is it you have small augmentation which is a doublet [Music] you have small button or small augmentation which is additionally to initial website you have overlay where you have a place for better just come back you have place for uh more place for your workflow and essentially you can extend uh any website with your with your workflow so uh it's very easy to develop it so uh it's what you see here is essentially this is a doublet there's only 50 lines of code everything else is inside uh there is an example essentially everything else is inside our platform and oops so yes just started you start the development server and yeah it's running just once more i don't like the outlet but we will see then i open the twitter in the twitter i see this example too just to refresh it and it's a button it let's make a layout and it changes state as it's a it's a small doublet and as you see uh you can just uh i i would just drop the alert message i don't like it i make it good change it so and then i can reload once more and let's get reloaded it doesn't have a lot and it's yeah it's essentially i it's like it's hot deployment later when you're ready with it you can just go to developer and you can deploy it but i will deploy it right now it's a bit longer process so and we have we are able to connect wallets just go to example five so and then you can see see the example five you can switch it on adjust you can connect involve it it's connected you can send some rinkeby ethers uh it's not the huge thing but essentially what is a huge thing uh that the huge thing is that this doublet this extension is only 100 lines of code and it works quite seamlessly seamless and this button has it's a state machine so if your transactions go through wallet it changes the state and the button change changes the state as well it's very easy to to develop it so and why we need doubles uh the very last words we need doublets because uh there are two ways of thinking of it it's a quite crypto analytic way of thinking because every uh website where we see it's completely owned by the owner even this owner is decentralized and if this owner has full control over the user attention and can do everything with the user attention he can block this application owner can block user and do anything else it's a not initial way to think like um like it was proposed by internet because the initial way of thinking of internet was you have your own content you published it and then you can redirect to another location and so on uh but now uh you publish your content on uh third-party platforms and they own your content so we can change it but what we can change we can break the uh owners monopoly or the user attention so we can extend uh their application monopolistic monopoly monopolistic owned by application owner only extended by another functionality it's one way of thinking we're breaking owners monopoly over the user attention another way of thinking is that we are connecting we can inject business workflows into third-party websites without asking asking for permission and the world platform uh is completely decentralized uh as as the swamp is any models are stored uh in swarm and registries are in ethereum currently uh but we will see because of uh high transaction costs so that's what the tablet is probably that is thank you so much i'm i'm really impressed uh by your approach to things this is like really smart this is really really smart i think and um i look very much forward to going to that github link and and you know installing that extension for myself uh one question i had just to clarify um the these metamask transactions what exactly do they do now essentially yeah we we will enable a human hackathon application and um we need to uh store the mapping from youtube id uh to this rom id and we need the registry for that currently we can do register only in uh in smart contract because it's currently impossible to make concurrent writings from different users to uh fire or s it's uh it's a limitation uh that's why we need to use uh uh contract uh if it will be possible uh even without uh preserving an order but if it will be possible to store uh to write in one port from different users concurrently without preserving the order it's not blockchain for then we can just upload to swarm uh get get a link available for anyone and it's fine the limitation is that not anyone can upload to the board but only the owner but there are a lot of owners here who can upload and attach video to another tweets or another content the idea of this hackathon application is to store the content in swarm and reattach to another content to tweet to instagram and everything else that's that's that's really smart thank you for that one more question what does s keep uber then inherit and under the kryon connect what does that mean yes there is no master over you and there is no slave under you it's um it cut off all german law and it's a it's a ward uh what that the humboldt sonatas must say um when they become the night uh they must promise that they don't accept any god uh any power over them and they don't treat the other people who elected them as a slave i didn't know in german i didn't know german politicians were such anarchists but it's a lovely a lovely uh um expression i think that you have yeah yeah it's it's quite old i suppose it's not really live currently yeah i i i okay dimitri thank you so much for your presentation and talk um and we'll see each other tomorrow right because you're going to present this for the jury i suppose um i think they will be very happy with this entry thank you so much yeah thank you um so next up in our uh saturday uh program uh dimitri if you could stop screen sharing and maybe uh disable your camera um so next up in this saturday um open day for the for the liberate data hackathon week um we have uh nikolas uh it's really funny because we both speak a little bit of no nicolas speaks french i speak a little bit of french so it's always fun to practice this um so uh nicholas is working with vizion vision people and they are doing please keep listening they're doing radiology on swarm so nicolas please go ahead with your presentation uh i'll come back to you with some questions afterwards okay so hello everyone so some of you might might know uh might know us shall we screen so now you should be able to to see us to see to see the screen so we are vision we are a teleradiology platform later so we basically we have been using a swarm and gas for backhand since 2019 and we started to have a production which means working with a rare client continuously by the end of 2018 pretty much right before the kovid it uh in the world and we have participated is in the swarm launch event so the idea of this plantation is present how much progress we have made using a gas and swarm to do wardrobe which is a terror ideology so this is uh just to to show a bit of vision about what is the decentralized radiology decentralized health so basically we believe that we need a strong reliability on the system and data security we have seen it with covin and also before that a structure are attacked by mashups people some health system might go down because they are centralized and one of the idea of using this technology stack either to add more security uh beyond the processes as well as the interconnecting the client as here with what you call the patient and our client which are health center uh together on the process and also last thing is to add the transparency and auditability on what is happening with the patient data and with radiologist data and all the s related data so basically all the teleradiology work we have a health center which can be an hospital we can be at a radiology center which uh create all the imagery and all the patient data we have a study request we have uh all of the data related to the to the patient itself we we take the image and all this data will integrate some ai to help for the arduous to have a better analysis faster dialysis and a more secure diagnosis we then anonymize everything so the ai doesn't know anything about the patient except the images and there is no way for them to retrieve who belongs to who belongs the image we do this internally then the image and all the data including the report from the ai will go to the radiologist so the audiologist we have all the data necessary encrypted so we can see everything in a secure way you will do the treatment so analyze image write his report and then we'll send back the report and then we will manage to send back the report to the hospital and or to the person directly so basically what we are is a a platform we just transfer data from point to point making sure it is secure making making sure that only the right people had the right data at the right time and making sure that there is no change in the data at that saturn were not necessary the last thing we do is uh you want is to connect to integrate fully the patient in this experience allowing to uh to directly not only directly access all his data from the report but also manage his consent so if you if he doesn't want to if you want to stop the process in it when he will be able to do if you want to uh to do to start again we're gonna go to have a second advice we'll be able to directly have access to radiologists and the last thing we have implemented is a full ai solution for hospitals we want to have a very fast diagnosis on things like kovid to be able to do some triage without having to wait for for radiologists for a human resource because uranus are very scarce so on those so oh we are doing this with uh the swarm and the gas technology so we have we have a one private network of what we call v engine which contain the values application and like swarm gas and or some front-end and other process so it's a multi-actor trust universe which is which means that all the hospital personnel trust with engine but only have to trust this and to trace the fact that we are a competent and a validist they will only interact with this uh with their own machine and we managed to transfer all the necessary data to the radiologist to some other process to make anatomic diagnosis easier but to have some tools i want to make the experience of the audiologist or the experience of the hospital much better and to the ai so all the logic is a handle using smart contract so everyone is a at rm address using uh who wants a smart contract on a private network we don't have a uh commoner or standard when the web one 2.0 technology except for small applications that are not linked to work or job which is transferring data and managing the right we have obviously a full encryption for everything as it is a sensitive data so we need to make sure that only the right person are seeing the right data and also at the right time which is very important and with this full decentralization we we have never lost actually one single uh data from a patient which which usually happened like one or two between 180 percent of the time of regular radiologists regular radiology platform and we never had this case where we lost a patient but we lost any data related to repression and last thing we have implemented is thanks to the blockchain and to the to the storage system we able to do a very advanced automation because integrating uh and connecting with the hospital system is kind of quite hard so and also sending image to ais can be very complex so we have built a lot of automation to do this smoothly so now over 60 although network work is basically where there were very big nodes that are full load and uh we put a lot of light node which don't would participate in the solar system inside lc center because they might have a connectivity issue internet problem so for us it's a strategy that works the best because all of these constraints and we are implementing successfully this network in all of this type of infrastructure so cloud network obviously was very easy private cloud for some of for some of our clients but we also have a physical machine inside of a health center which are also in a like in few layers of private network and vm inside the health center as well were also on different type of private network and the networking problem that network can be quite an issue for us but some query will be able to connect all these nodes so they can communicate smoothly exchanging the data so now we just do a bit recap of uh what have what we have done since the first uh event the first period which was the swarm all of us the launch event we have participated in this event we have shown quite a similar transition of how it works how we system work and now i think it's interesting to to show a bit of progress from this period so noting that it includes kovid and we had to to deal with a center of enclose or a lower lower volumes but still we have multiplied by around three of customers and it will explode later seven times more patients so we have no probably creating your system around 30 000 patients we have implemented our system for two hospitals during the crisis so they uh directly send a from our system their mesh to an ar that allows them for triage between patients that have a very bad case of the coronavirus and need to stay in the hospital and patient who have been in case or no case and and can go home csids to allow them to use better their resources because they they lack bad for everyone in the slide in a couple of months we say that 80 percent of a patient have to be treated within one hour and we are doing no is a 90s 96 percent of all patients are done within one hour which means that speed is very important uh because we don't manage vital emergency yet but we manage people who have to travel sometime one hour just to have access to a medical center and we have to to work as fast as we can because a lot of people need to uh to have uh their image they can come from very far and the the faster the better including the need a high quality result but uh speed is quite important and actually it's a very big example oh we can use this type of technology which has no slower than regular technology but with some tweaking we can still go very fast and for one company we have double the the size of the staff so voice is a big big achievement and i said we plug in four type of s data system so yeah we are dealing and making the link between very new and advanced uh technology so with a trip on our own web and we're connecting with a very low and very old standard of data but actually to do it and the blockchain system really allows us to uh to do it smoothly in fact because it creates an ecosystem where everyone has a common api so lastly just before we do a small and quicker demo about the system we show some other projects that we're planning to achieve in the following months so the first one is a fully decentralized diacon viewer so the dicom has the standard for magical images so imagine like that and uh always to build a diacon that will be host and read all the image from uh from swamp so basically you uploaded the app and you will be able to to read any images that you accept have access to or your own images so things are like this these are basically a quite advanced imaging tool because you have to be able to zoom in zoom out change the contrast and a lot of complex measures on the image the second one is a chat because we need to enable uh the capability of the the personnel inside the the hospital and the radiologist to discuss about a patient about some protocol about a problem about an emergency and using a chat would be much better the third one will be safe image healing machine which will be to use uh gas and swarm to uh do all the madness of all our machines so we guess we'll sensor order for updating some some package for updating some some applications for downloading some stuff and all the swap will be able to to be used to transfer all the config for for the machine if much never problem due to changing only a true action on one machine and the last one is a using a satellite connection because one of the main problem we have actually is the fact that the internet is not very good in france in a lot of places especially in places where we have our client which has place where belong to the what we call the void diagonal which is a place where people have very low access to internet very low access to uh to health and one of our job is not only to to save the health center and to bring the health to people who don't have access or a simple access to it and uh using this uh standard um internet provider and very efficient and we are planning to use some satellite connection directly for revenge for a machine to have a very really reliable connection uh for health center because it's very important not to forget that even in france we're supposed to have a very developed system but we have people who we need to drive one hour two hours three hours to get access to a radiology center and we lack a lot of radiologists and religious centers so the system recognition is a must because the telegraphy fix this problem of health success but the core problem is is internet so it is autumn contact me if you want to protect me to have maybe more info or for any reason and now i will do a very quick demo of our system that i recorded the friday so basically you can see on the left screen is the screen of a radiologist and the right screen this is the the screen of someone in the hospital who is creating a patient and you have to note that a lot of these actions that appear on the screen are fully automated because we receive the image from the else system and from this image we can create all the patients and retrieve some something that i directly send it to the audiologist and so there are two different machines or a test network and this is already all happening in real time in fact in just just to screen the recording at the same time so here we simply create the the patient of on the most of our system it's already created like this because it's triggered when we receive our image then we had only necessary as data so the quotation is a system to that tag the exam to describe what kind of exam it is if it is a radio of a hand or foot or mri or echography or whatever here we add the prescription that is created by the doctor [Music] which is important to note that we have this little line here which represents when a transaction is sent to the chain because we have a blockchain the transaction or the action they need some time to to complete and we try our best with our system to uh and so help us to to uh to hide this fact and have an active interface to make it a thing that is smooth so now we are clicking to send the patient to the hospital to the radiologist and when the patient descends which is right now it internally appears in his work list so now the radar list is able to see the patient so he's seeing a prescription the quotation and he have a you have a text field to write his reports so now i'm just to show all this smooth thing happen just put the center in the report ready mode so we'll able to see when the difference between when the gradually sends the report and when the the partner the hospital can i can see it so we simply write your list will do a job so for now you have to to download the all the images as a zip and read it in his own interface that's why we want to develop our own tool to redirect his image from the hydrogen stream now we will basically dictate his report or write it save it when you click on save it automatically upload it on swarm and when you click on send it sends the report so no the action that hasn't started yet but he is able to to to treat other patients basically they have other patients automatically open and while he is reading the exam for another patient this exam is going to the to the center so from that way it takes a bit of time but still haven't happened but for the large register point of view it's already done so for in his point of view is very fast and because this is an action that should succeed as it is a simple transaction version we don't need to worry about showing a failure if there's a failure it happened right back but from the largest point of view it happened instantly while in fact it needs to be integrated in the block and take a lot of time and then is instantly here so they can see the report the report usually we will send directly the report in the health center system and they will be able to to see it in their own data management system flawlessly so that that's all for me if you have another question let me start on the screen thank you so much um nicolas as always very interesting and i i do want to mention that you guys are actually running swarm in production right yes actually we are running certain production uh since uh late uh 2019 so no it's more than a year of some production the very first node was maybe if the first version the earth one so and we have started to use it in development way before so we've been using swarm for two years and one year in the in full production how do you deal with like breaking changes if i can ask like if there's like a new b client or a new version of a swarm client and you know things are still changing a lot in in the code so how do you deal with that so for now because we had a lot of work integrating a new client new new customer we haven't made the switch yet on the big client so we are still working with thousands of patients on the older swarm deprecated client which is still working so basically we are in the transitions we are creating a small private network to test everything to test the connectivity to test uh the encryption and policies of this feature and we uh probably going to switch to b uh in the following months and as soon as we switch to b we will make an announcement and send you a message uh to share it this actually month with you and also maybe to share your experience on our switching uh and always with christian beef and in the problem an issue like this okay thank you so much nicola um and i hope to see you later of course next up um so uh just a housekeeping message we are running 15 minutes late this is all my fault because i think we did we overdid the conversation at the start of this but can i please ask every next speaker to try to keep your talk within the amount of time that has been scheduled for you will you will have to wait for like another 15 minutes because the next up is ipld document signing with binance smart shane cid anchoring with xdv i have no idea what all these terms mean but i hope you i think that you can explain all that to us and if you're here please unmute and show yourself there you go um how do you do how do i pronounce your name rogelio rogelio okay awesome so okay i'll i'll try to uh remember that uh please go ahead give your presentation and may i ask you to just keep it 15 minutes that would be really cool thank you yeah can you also enable luis my my partner in the presentation sure i think jasper can do this so uh gasper do you know what's needed there [Music] oh you're both named rogelio yeah he used the other and my other email account sorry and uh louise the weather seems to be like beautiful where you are well can i ask where you are thank you yeah i'm in the beach right now in a family trip right now awesome in what country are you panama we're both oh okay you make me dream now i'm in a very very cold belgium and there's like still snow on all the roofs everything that's that seems so lovely i can't wait to fly again and to go there so anyway now you guys are enabled both of you you should be able to do screen sharing and you know anything you want to do um i'll come back maybe with some questions uh you know let's let's do this [Music] okay luis so uh we're going to show you uh like we started the last seven to eight days doing this kind of uh we don't know when we had a hackathon with the swan foundation we we still started this hackathon so because the song version one was stopped the actual application that we had is not demo-able so we needed to have something to show our customers that we were transitioning to some other new system and also we were required to have integration with blockchain um but at the end of the day the ethereum issue with the gas which is pretty expensive right now made me decide to use like uh because it's a hackathon try to use binance machine and so far we had a pretty stable integration with binance machine we also resolved the gas issue being that say we were able to focus there on the on the wallet uh feature which is we're also going to show you that the source code for that we have uh something that they call universal wallet so we are able to sign documents and do transactions in the blockchain so we also have this in the demo um and then we have ipld uh for now using ipfs but the ultimate idea is that i feel they can be integrated with swarm it's just that nobody has done the multihachi multi-codec for that yet um we are thinking about proposing a ground lighting in the future so we will be able to use the the storage style of swan with ipld which is for us is a huge plus because you you talking link linking graph uh [Music] and that allows you to do some kind of a pretty cool stuff with the id and documents so maybe we can show you some something that that we have lewis maybe you can show you some code or do a bit of a demo please maybe we can start with the finance smash integration we can show you the the call for that i think uh lewis is muted on that account still muted yeah i'm not that familiar with zoom sorry there you go um okay okay this is the the this is a scream that we use to sign documents right now uh we are in a uh anniversary intake to fully integrate in in mainnet um right now i'm using this demo for to upload uh documents into the ipld network which will work and in the future we're gonna switch to swarm but right now we are doing it uh with a finance margin integration and it works pretty if it works in a representative way which you can see you can log in with your wallet and yeah so it is login as you can see there you have your uh can you show the screen i'm supposed to be sharing it already let me see it said i insurance i'm sharing let me go ahead again i try to share it again yeah i'm definitely not familiar with so many can you see something on my screen it said it said it's sharing already can you see my share my screen right now um i don't see your screen no no we had the initial powerpoint presentation then you went off ah yeah i he didn't stop sharing but it doesn't do anything no worries just take your yo take your time let me take out the video maybe the bandwidth is messing up [Music] okay it's it's the uk louise it's it's uh it's a lot of fun actually to to hear the birds in the background and to pretend that i'm like near a beach in panama so i could listen to that for like another hour so yeah yeah it's very relaxing here maybe that's keeping me from throwing my computer away but well maybe there's like a geographical lock so you cannot share your screen while you're on holiday let's see let me see okay and try this again yeah this is awesome yeah perfect perfect perfect all right once you get this out of here all right okay this is it all right um okay i'm gonna refresh it again okay as you can see here i can uh unlock my wallet i previously set it up so so i can have balance in all so i can sign documents and also upload them right now um as you can see i just sign up and you can see i have a an address and also i have this decentralized id which it was set up when i created the wallet which identified me as uh as a carrier of the person that is going to upload the the file into the decentralized storage and we are using as i said before iple right now we're going to sort to switch everything to swarm and it is working as a as a as you can sign documents by uploading it here and in the end you're going to receive an ie and and cid which is stored in the blockchain so you can right now it as you can see it is estimating us so we we are we managed to create the contracts in in in and have everything working and properly but we are we need we still need to to work some things out to to to manage to to get the everything to work properly and when you accept the gas then and the file is uploaded and you receive a cid this id can be used to to retrieve the file in the future when we have all the documents uploaded uh listed in the in in in the web page so so you can it's also the users can can check that the files uh all have been signed and all the thing and all that that can share to other users and with no need to uh of any hardware and to sign the documents and and well we are dealing to to get this to work in our country so so we we have we we we were pretty careful to to acknowledge and to know all the laws needed for us to uh for for us to be able to sign the documents and and and it can be uh properly sustainable into into our into our laws and in in into our uh i said okay also to to answer gregor's question about ipld i build this like a uh agnostic linked data graph or data that uh structure for json ld documents so it's a kind of a merkle tree structure where you can store similar kind of structures having kind of a a format a schema or a data schema that is provided by the ipl this will happily architectural specification so say you want to um store link data like uh in git format you can use the git uh ipld connector or adapter there's also a bitcoin and ethereum um then you have the different kind of uh uh storage in this case right now there's only uh the ipfs store which handles the storage for this kind of a different kind of uh data structures but in theory and i asked in the in the forums in smartphones we could use swarm with ipld but that's not being proposed by anyone anyone yet there's no any open source and we're trying to to see if we can achieve that later in the future um but yeah that's pretty much what we have i think we already have 15 minutes um like i said we have the ipld vanessa mache and we we have a wallet maybe you can show the open source wallet that we have in mpm uh luis we intend to to do a lightweight version of the wallet to to do a standardizing universal wallet specification which we think is going to be the next feature of wallet technology um besides the signing that's still there um technology that we we focus entirely in our business which is wallet we have done several wallets for different kind of companies around the world um but yeah we we this is the version one of the product uh we also have a version two which uses an nft non-vulnerable token and the reason to use enough for your token is that we want to be able to have a kind of a marketplace you can think about something like a poor man social protocol kind of a feature um that would so this both product version one of mission two would allow us to to have uh all these different kind of data tokenization or data structures for different businesses here in panama so that's pretty much what we have um we are pretty much coding a lot lately and because you know swami's version 2 is about to release uh um of course with this used to work with version one perfect table we need to keep our consumers uh with the latest and greatest of technology so thank you very much for your time swam foundation i don't know is there any questions uh from the audience so i think uh yeah gregor had this one wonderful question you already answered um because we are very limited in time and already like 15 minutes over time i would like to round it up uh if that's okay uh yeah i know you guys are i think in the in the b support group which has become sort of our hackathon uh group so you know i would invite everybody to have that have questions um to find rogelio and luis uh there can people find you there yeah yeah of course i'm going to be all day dedicated to this endeavor so thank you so much for your presentation and luis enjoy your time in panama thank you for having us it seemed lovely thank you thank you very much thank you so much uh next up um uh let me check next up we have uh oh really interesting will and lewis are only will i think um not sure yet we'll see if lewis makes it okay okay hey will um where are you from can i ask i know it's a privacy inflation question but yeah originally u.s california and then 13 years here in kenya now near near mombasa on the coast ah so the the luis uh is the lewis you're working with louise holbrook exactly yes amazing let's see lucky yeah okay if you see him send my warmest uh regards to him and give him a big hug um so we'll you are going to talk about basic income community currencies and currency and decentralized exchange grassroots economics i think that's wonderful because this panel before and this is like the topic i wanted to you know discuss a little bit about like how can we use tokens in a not wall street kind of way so i'm looking forward to your presentation um please go ahead can you see my screen here yes it looks wonderful okay so uh you know in uh when the british first came to kenya they imposed this hut tax um and they charged everyone shillings to live and you had to work for the british to get those shillings and and this was sort of like the mode of imperialism that sort of took over you know post sort of like you know proper colonization kind of uh techniques and um you know the the idea of a community going out and saying well you know we could actually create our own medium of exchange um it you know it's a tough concept to to to have because you don't have the piece of paper and you don't have the right stamps and you don't have the right you know printers and stuff so back in 2010 we started i came out to kenya and i i had a security printer that helped us and we just printed currencies for communities so we go into a village and say hey did you know you can just make your own and uh and sort of tapping into old kind of cultural techniques where you know pre you know uh pre-the you know pre-money in our pre sort of like script money in kenya there was a lot more sort of uh communal structures where you know everyone would help build a house and then everyone helps build the next house and all that kind of stuff so tapping into some of those older techniques and and sort of replacing debt uh was what we sort of started doing so instead of like you know what what happens kind of you know post-colonialism and in just in in today is that you know unless there's money the only other structure people go into is sort of informal debt systems and those tend to kind of rip apart communities so while as before there were certain systems of sort of like chores and rotations within villages and things like that it just became this sort of informal debt system and so uh the idea of a community going and saying well we can make our own currency um it just it made a lot of sense here well as you know where i where i had studied these systems in the us and europe it was more of a cultural fad you know like we're going to use a community currency because we're part of the like you know bohemian elite and and you know it wasn't there wasn't any sort of like you know like chronic crunch in a medium of exchange and so you know you've got the british sort of you know creating this currency system here and you've got the elite kenyans sort of taking it over and then you've got most of kenya without a medium of exchange for huge sections of the year and there's no sort of elastic uh you know price system or anything like that here you know where you would imagine like if capitalism worked well the price of tomatoes would change because of the lacking of a medium of exchange it just it doesn't happen so just you know like capitalism never really worked here in the first place and the monetary system never worked so anyways getting to the tech aspect of it um what we started doing in in 2018 was replacing the paper vouchers with a digital voucher um we used ussd as an interface so we have a server sitting there at a telecom that would connect people to a blockchain and we've actually you know we're on a third blockchain right now these site evm sidechains and essentially we work with communities to create their own contracts and this is all sort of you know what um in the works and changing a lot right now and lewis will talk a lot about that of how we're doing this but essentially the idea is that the community establishes a claim against their future production and they tokenize it and there's signatories and validators against that claim um and then these cl these these tokens that circulate locally within the community as well as outside they can also exchange to other villages and we're using liquidity pools to do that um and in general those liquidity pools are are all connecting these community tokens into a basic income token and so this this diagram kind of shows in a way so like there's a there's a contract actually in the past we were doing this a lot manually and so we're working on these contracts right now um and lucas might mention that a bit but there's essentially an issuance so as people join the network there's tokens minted you know a certain amount for each person a hundred tokens and they circulate there's a holding tax like a de mirage or a holding fee that goes back and then recirculates back into the community and so that's available to everyone in kenya and we've just just yesterday we had a group from a refugee camp just starting to use it we've got about 42 000 users and last year we had about 2.6 million shillings our million dollars worth of these tokens just moving around and these are just softly pegged to the national currency um and people are using them to replace how they would have a list of debts in the past right if you were a shop selling tomatoes you'd have five people that have a debt with you and you sit on those debts for a month so in this case they use this token which we call sarafu which just means currency um in instead of that debt system so they have a max level of sorafu they take so it's really communalizing the debt within the community and then you have these sub tokens these these uh community-based credit systems which are based on future production so very two very different systems where one is a community currency we would call these and versus this is a basic income and the way we're connecting the community currencies is through liquidity pools against this basic income um and so it's all super interesting uh stuff there's a huge amount of data um there's metadata that we're storing right now on postgres and we want to move that all into personal data stores so that we work a lot with red cross right now so that red cross can use that data and create impact claims like with unicef and the un and the users producing that data let's say it's environmental data or food security type data actually can get rewards and capacity building and so we we really need some type of system that gives some sort of sovereignty to the data of users for all kinds of metadata that they're producing related to their transaction data and in general we've got you know this is the basic modality is again like there's a community or an issuer creating a claim against goods and services and and projects that's also something that needs to be stored um on chain and there's a community generally this is like a physical contract that gets scanned and it's also signed by the chief and elders and that sort of thing um and there's tokens issued there's a very simple kind of voucher system uh this is kind of showing the liquidity pool so you have two different tokens here connected through liquidity pools through a network token and in our case that network token is a basic income scheme and that kind of gets us up to about today um i think lewis will take over a little bit more on this but just to say that all our users right now all of them 100 of them are using non-internet connected phones to connect to the system so we have a custodial wallet manager right now um something like you know in rural areas twenty percent and maybe in urban areas it's like sixty percent of our users have the access to internet and so we're trying to give them non-custodial systems this year and so a lot of this you know the stuff around decentralized data management is getting you know like it's gonna it's gonna be very very important this year that that happens um and so we start moving people off of the telecoms and on to you know self-custodial uh systems or non-custodial from our point of view um yeah i don't know louis can you actually talk i don't know can i actually talk yeah you can yay okay here right you may i i stop sharing i leave it here i think you cannot start screen share while the other participant is carrying yourself my share hold on soon puts a limit on sharing no surprises there yes right yeah so hello everybody long time no see uh yeah so i i won't be talking that much about like the implementation of the system itself i really wanted to speak more concretely about what we're planning on doing with swarm in the in the short and mid-term so b and grassroots economics ge yes stated um yeah so the first and and and so we're uh currently in the rewriting the whole system and deploying on a new chain class called bloxburg uh next weekend if if the gods stand us by uh blacksburg is a consortium blockchain a poa blockchain uh run by a selection of i think it's 20 somewhere between 20 and 30 universities all over the world and and it's a evm a byzantine blockchain i think so there's been a lot of effort getting the system ready for that of course and not really any time to look at the swarming ends of things but when it's out then over the next few weeks we'll be starting to bring this in so the first thing we want to do as uh will was also outlining is to put our metadata store on swarm or on on distributed storage metadata here meaning as will was saying our current system is 100 custodial we have all the private keys um so metadata in this sense means anything that's not on chain or not a critical piece of data for some internal component operation in the cluster however um even though uh even though the signer system for the customers or the users are in the cluster we also have a staff client software which we're using staff client software here meaning the software that the staff is using when doing phone support with the users are also monitoring activity on the network and this is being designed towards being a full dapp totally at goal being to totally untether it from the cluster itself and of course swarm will be an important part of that in terms of how we're storing metadata currently we're using a crdt scheme um we're basically signing every crdt update with a pgp key so that when you consume the graph of changes you check the key the key signing chain and only accept the update chain of all the keys match the keys that you trust we chose auto merge for the purpose it was kind of a short-sighted choice because our cluster services are in python and auto merge is only in javascript so we have to probably wind ourselves down a bit more low level on the crdt level for when we move this to swarm but uh that's all good fun um and of course using crdts has another advantage and that's um for up use for work in the field typically in the rural kenya and stuff bandwidth as a scarce resource and therefore it's a really uh really good possibility or a useful possibility to do local first up updates so that you can um so that you think when you get back on the network and collision free and everything we're our storage setup is already using um [Music] it's already keys the keyed would determine is the cash system so it's kind of is similar to the way swarm uh already up uh swarm already operates also with the single owner chunks so um we're really just talking about an adapter switching the back end um i think that swarm has a great value proposition itself just for the data teleportation layer without the incentives and everything else and basically since bandwidth is also an issue uh at say office in kenya it would be useful to have us to have a swarm node running there to sync the metadata with the cluster automatically and like and and they can access where where the data cannot be accessed directly from that node and in that sense um we're looking at doing a private swarm just between the few staff locations and the cluster in the first iteration um yes we have a few constraints on uh on our use of swarm first of all the ussd sessions they're very limited on time i think it's like one and a half minutes and if you don't complete whatever you want to do then it cancels and you have to start over again and also of course the staff has do live phone support so you don't want data retrieval times to to be too slow therefore we're a bit hesitant to jump into dive in with both feet at the same time so i've been thinking about a web 2.

625 approach basically which is some more of a muxer component um where we can fire parallel requests um to swarm to ipfs or to other agents but also to a series of web 2 mirrors as long as all of these instances use a similar hash key scheme to retrieve data we could do this with a small offset of a time offset so basically we try swarm first and then you know after 100 milliseconds we try the first web 2 mirror and whoever is the fastest wins but we could also embed a benchmarking system here so that even though uh for example the swarm retrieval would be slower we could still record the round um the the retrieval time for live use benchmarking that could be used later for for improvement purposes and stuff i'm thinking maybe it would be fun to write this in rust and put it into webassembly but let's um but uh yeah um if that's feasible that's cool we're also gonna need a hasher for python i was thinking maybe writing one in c because we're gonna need i'm gonna need a very small object file a hasher for different purposes so to write it in c and do you have python bindings and also um to gather with this we're going to going to need an archive service node basically that when all of the staff and the ussd component are doing metadata updates on swarm uh we also need one node that kind of keeps the feed of of all the metadata merges so we have like one or maybe several instances that are always online and and have the full have full graph um yes longer a bit longer term um where as will was saying looking at mix of custodial and sovereign services and there comes in the personal data store and to what degree would the sovereign wallet users uh take over the um uh the user data already and the methods in the metadata store that we implement in the custodial side we'd be moving to a public swarm of course um for all for all of that also um we are using we have a contract called an address declarator was basically as any address can describe any other address with an arbitrary number of 32 byte hashes and that's basically uh those behind those hashes could be descriptions of off chain non virtual token reserves like for example some sign document of i put 100 goats towards this uh towards this cic token it could be identification assets uh like it's kyc stuff uh unit swap token list structures and so on and so forth um all of this all of these contents assets obviously would be stored on a distributed storage or swarm um one other nice thing that would be nice uh one other thing that would be nice to have is we are going to need searchable uh so all the identities in our system is key like the the the identity global identifier is the ethereum address so if we want to resolve let's say a person's name to an ethereum address we need some sort of search uh indexing engine um i it would be a cool experiment to see if we could bring in something like a berkeley db or lmdb as web assembly into the browser and then use feeds to keep to update the indexes the name indexes and use swarm as a random access for these database drivers to uh to to resolve uh to resolve name searches um i think i talked more longer than i should uh just briefly a small wish list that we have from uh for swarm um if we're going to use to fry a semi-private form that is um that is um accessible from internet but we don't want the risk of anybody uh sabotaging or or or hijacking our address space it could be cool with the key level connectivity control for the node this can be done as a proxy as well but i don't know would be interesting to hear if you have thoughts like that for swarm itself it would be very useful if it there is a payless way of doing swarm that is if we could just uh remove the incentives totally for typically private swarm setups i don't think you really need the incentives token um uh efficient multi-key store but what did i mean oh yeah right so you have once so i have like a terabyte disk and how many processes do i have to fire up to serve um uh the store efficiently towards that so it would be cool if it possible to minimize the memory usage of each of those processes so that you don't fire up a full swarm for every like 20 or 30 gigabyte segments of the store um and of course it would be cool if a swarm is not is lean enough that it's feasible to run it on some shitty hardware in a village in rural kenya that's pretty much what i have i think so i might just add on the tail end there it's just that like there's a huge push with unicef and red cross and world food program and giz from germany that they to build sort of humanitarian infrastructure and and so data storage and you know private data stores and things like that like and even humanitarian blockchains where there's no you know like you know having red cross run 50 nodes is trivial like you know there and and they don't you know the cost of them running that node is 20 a month or something you know to run that computer or something you know it's and so we're we're running right now in bloxburg uh we're migrating to it which is just a university chain so i i think that space is going to get bigger and bigger and as long as there is like you know sort of to the moon for-profit kind of stuff going on it sort of scares off a lot of other folks so anyways i i'm excited about that space growing quite a lot in the next few years and just you know governments and and even humanitarian organizations like tapping into that that thanks guys so but petra can i can i ask you to just wait a second before sharing your screen and your video and etc um because i have uh some more questions um thank you uh for will and and lewis um maybe i don't know if this question is is for will r for lewis or both so in in the first panel discussion uh we were talking about you know i at least i had an opinion on i really sometimes don't like how the entire like incentivization and tokenization in it for instance with swarm it seems to be all about money and nuts about doing a good thing in the world so would what could we learn or could we apply some of the things you guys are learning if i if i understand correctly the entire economy and the liquidity pool is generating a basic income for you know the entire um you know for all the participants in this economy um could this be a model for for instance for node operators to have this like also on future productivity well i mean there's still you know like for liquidity pools for instance like a liquidity pool provider right you're just you're creating a contract that allows that is you know going to take a fee on volumes going back and forth for instance right so if the red cross is creating a liquidity pool without any fees well no one's that pool is going to get empty and no one's going to add back to it again so those are useful things where you do want some sort of market driven effect uh gas fees though on a blockchain again like what's the actual cost and what's the investment there and i think you know getting into real costs right if you're if your cost of running a a node is actually 20 a month well then why do you need gas fees more than that right like that's those are the kinds of questions like do you need these for profit you know uh sort of schemes to make you know like investors happy and things like that or do you just need public infrastructure and if it's just public infrastructure well we can run public infrastructure like it's not a big deal we can have public libraries they're not that expensive so i think you know if we can if we can come in and undercut that market as humanitarian organizations we'll just continue to do that and to hell with everyone else right like i and i'm really happy about that you know and with with red cross and unicef is to constantly tell them look you can do this yourself stop going to these for-profit like you can you can do it and and so i'm happy about that space and i think of course there is market-driven demand that can be healthy and good and we want to find those places but where it is just pure infrastructure like please let's not put toll roads into it like why why build into the future for that so that that's kind of my philosophy and honestly if if we had had to get vc to do all the stuff we're doing we it would have never happened ever you know so i i feel like we're blessed to be in this role of creating service industries and you know following from java you know like sun microsystems creating java like you know those are the types of organizations we want to emulate you know not these you know like greedy for-profit kind of vc driven stuff yeah well i couldn't agree more you yeah i couldn't agree more so as soon as this entire covet thing is done or i got vaccinated you will see me in kenya um you know discussing this with you and louise all night guys everyone come to the coast and louis you gotta bring lewis with you too oh he isn't there yet okay louise of course then but he's gotta come back again okay i will pick up lewis somewhere in germany and we will travel together to kenya i would love that yeah bring a vaccine i chickened out because of lack of vaccines there's no coveted kitty don't worry about it okay um yes okay lewis and will thank you so much for this very inspiring presentation and seriously i'm gonna check it out and we should definitely meet up this is really interesting also in the um yeah we'll talk about this later but this really is interesting also for fair data society and fair drive and how uh we are trying to approach the infrastructure to be you know commons are like you know to be at a utility driven by nonprofit organizations you know we should definitely have a very much longer conversation on this in the future so thank you thank you very much lewis um um next up you already saw a hint of her and next up is petra with loot got lu dances dances studios so is it should i pronounce it like french style yeah i think it's a bastardization of french and latin i'm trying to piss off as many people at the same time as possible basically well yes i think it sounds lovely though so um anyway petra um i know you had to wait you know for a long time like 30 minutes delay we have by now but it is because you know these all these projects are so inspiring so um go ahead do your thing and we'll see each other up here so um the title of the project is micro spark fate in the land and make believe which is a whole bunch of words um let me try and explain it i guess um the land of make-believe the world is dying your stories have the unique power to heal our shared reality by resolving the contradictions that are destroying it help us to teach the people in this world to create and we can save the world forever that's what i'm what i'm trying to do atlanta make believe is a live stream tabletop game with a unique world that fans help create using their own text images audio and video creations it's also the name of a famous painting uh created by giro het jaro hess back in 1930 which combined a whole bunch of hundreds of fairy tales uh jack the giant killer jack and jill on their hill mary quite contrary and all the fairies dancing in the moonlight um all in one massive huge really epic world map of all these fairy tales all together and so it's kind of like creating that sort of space um and then microscope fate or micro spark fate is a combination of three different role-playing systems uh fate is a very popular uh open gaming licensed uh [Music] uh scenario role-playing game uh role uh tabletop role-playing game that's based on uh playing through uh encounters mainly and dealing with the interactions between characters using characters and aspects and aspects of those encounters microscope is a world building game that uses a fractal process of expansion by placing periods inside of other periods inside and then putting events inside of the periods and then locations in the events and then seasons scenes inside of the over and over with layers to describe the flow of a history or a story and then spark into fake core is brilliant uh piece of adaptation which takes the spark role playing game which is very similar in terms of world building into the world of fake core um so i combine all of those rule sets into a sort of stack which allows the players to move from building the world up and then focusing down into the minutia of an individual question arising in a scene so a little bit more about what i do and who i'm where i'm coming from um i'm the cfo at the fantasy network and one of our principal properties is the gamers which is set in this crazy world called farther all which is also the subject of another series that we have called journey quest which is probably our best-selling series and we also have live games that we play at gen con and also on twitch in addition to that we've got a huge group of collaborative storytellers and creators working together in the network to crowdfund together to work together and share assets to hire each other to work on different projects and to you know sort of shepherd the community and grow it as we move through uh our creative process together and so this is also an ethic uh fan supported in in this process one of the things we discovered in uh i think 2014 i think we're the initial we've got eight seasons of masters of the metaverse um on twitch we were able to set up python bots to lead interactive interactions from the audience there we go um so audience members are able to purchase special buffs and uh interact with the audience uh using comments that are read by an automated voice live in the studio and we sort of pioneered this technology along with hyper rabbit go early in the middle of last decade sort of our highest uh prize uh is the ability to create a hack attack and um audience members are allowed to create a scenario for example on wednesday we had an epic rap battle from a masked magiker who appeared in the middle of the session and everybody did an epic rap battle and they weren't ready for a rap battle but it was epic uh so this is kind of the the way that the game is played on screen between the audience and um the players in the improv right so role play and these are some of the stories which we have this massive storyline set both in the real world with the characters of the gamers and in a fantasy world uh both of these are fantasy worlds really one is slightly more real than the other right um and the idea is to take all of these elements and tie them together into a single website so that we can see all of these characters and all of these events and periods uh from a common framework um we need both the time dimension and the spatial dimensions you know where events occur is just as important as when they occur and it turns out that we've actually got more uh dimensions than time and space when it comes to the dimensions of the story we actually have a few more pieces and so this website that i'm currently building allows users audience members to submit content to be displayed as part of the story or as part of the set or as part of the background in um the play and those items objects characters factions whole worlds are connected in a sort of uh i guess so i started out with the idea of google maps for greyhawk and i built that but now i think what i want to do is create a tesseract and invite the internet to jump into it and then see wherever it takes us so i'm inviting people to upload content to the website um uh once it's complete and uh use that to construct scenes for the players to play and submitting objects creates the potential for an nft to be minted which then can be combined with other objects as purchasables from within the python store that can then be fed back in live audience interactions through collection nfts in the erc 1155 standard in order to allow unique user ticketed experiences where different elements have been selected from different parts of the story to be combined into a new unique scene and the players have the ability to pull those items in from the website as well to drive their own narrative creative process so this is basically the idea and i'm still very much in the proof of concept stage i have not developed token contracts yet and the website uh renderer is not complete uh but i have several other people working on the project uh on a volunteer basis and uh several other players who are working on material yeah is there any questions yes petra this is amazing i just like the extreme diversity of projects and you know things that are being done on top of swarm are you know around swarm it's just amazing to see you know we go from grassroots economy in kenya to to basically fantasy game network is i think it's it's it's amazing what you're doing and also yeah i don't have to tell you we'll be preaching to the choir of course but so many of these ideas uh economic ideas even came from the game world right and so many technologies that that we now use today like in normal computers are always almost always coming from you know the demands uh for humans to play games is basically try fingers former to do technological interesting things um sorry i don't really have a question but i just just want to say like for instance um i i read somewhere i was like kind of researching this that um there's like some function in c or in goal line that does this the calculation of the square root for something right and and and this is coming from quake 3d so they needed to do like very fast calculations and then suddenly we have this you know function that then everybody can use even in totally different contexts so um yeah i think it's amazing what you're doing and i'm i'm really inspired by it and i hope to see so much more i think this is going to grow into a very large thing i think you're on to something here and and yeah yeah i mean a lot of solutions in ai are driven by semantic tagging models and so this is sort of a training process that can be used to attach to a machine learning uh machine learning fed data uh data store and um you know a lot of what we're focused on right now is like the source of truth and trying to figure out the world machine uh to go with the world computer but i think it was stafford beers who was talking about you know layers of simulation in which we have to build around that because the complexity is too much for humans to really understand so i'm exploring that from fiction because a lot of simulation is not the real world and how we deal with that culturally and how we approach that in the blockchain space uh in cultural spaces in decentralized cultural spaces uh i think uh games and the creative process in general can lead a lot to developing the kinds of drivers that we need to have to motivate people uh in positive ways yeah do you do you see what is your opinion on like there's there's so much to do now i think almost like worldwide but at least in like the western kind of world there's so much to do about uh people behaving based on different sort of realities right people believe having different belief systems literally believing different facts to be well it's not facts but you know people creating sort of facts and believing them so i mean if it isn't a game sorry we maybe haven't had to deal with um a lot of those facts very much recently i mean i mean up until recently uh the united states i don't know about the rest of the world but at least in the united states um the earlier part of this century was you know based on a lot of credit inflation dynamics and so we weren't living in a very realistic world and when people have to face up to realities all of a sudden they have to make decisions um and maybe they're not making very rational decisions clearly because they've been so far out of touch with reality for so long um it's a really interesting take on that so but as we adjust through that process i think once we take stock of the realities of the situation and we begin to move forward uh from our own unique perspectives hitting ground and bouncing back up um the way to seek reintegration and grow the the new culture that will be the piece of all of this uh is definitely in letting go of your old personality and who you think you are and where it fits in the world and taking maybe just for a moment and putting on a funny face so that you can interact with people in a fresh way that you're not prejudging because they're also wearing funny faces and then you you laugh and you have a joke and then after a while afterwards you realize once you've taken off the mess that you were just having fun with somebody you didn't agree with before but now you figured out how you can do that and that's an important step for sure yeah i'm definitely speaking to that it's that co-creative process and honestly this isn't designed to make a lot of money for actors or or hollywood or anything like that uh the crowdfunding cultures and fans supported community uh that i'm part of anyway but in in large part in independent media and film throughout the world because we are becoming a global network we really are realizing that this is everywhere you know um but people are not really in it for the money they're in it for the sense of self-expression for the artistic experience in the sense of connection that they get with their community in that process what this platform has allowed us to do without blockchain is to build up internal gdp uh across a micro community and i think that a lot of the other uh presenters especially the guys who just went before can speak to the benefits of the ability to reuse transactional currency within your own space and so this is really about building that kind of arcade environment where we have the tokens to put into our own machines to make us run around anyway i don't want to take up any more of anyone else's time but thank you very much i'm i'm so happy to be the host so i it's up to and to be able to decide you know i can just it's a very personal empowering position to be in because i can't just ask people you know if i'm really interested in something i can ask him to tell talk more about it so it's it's lovely petra as always i i loved your presentation and also the conversation we had and uh i hope to see you very soon uh where in what country are you if i can ask i'm here in turtle island uh yeah in the cascadia bioregion i have no idea what you're talking about but it's probably a cultural reference um okay here in the north of the land of the eagle and the condor my friend that's lovely i will meet you there soon if i can find a flight i hope so i have something that will be lovely okay petra thank you so much and and see you soon um uh yes uh next uh mirko i hope i pronounce your name correctly because you know i have been i've been miko da corte so i have been i've been interacting with you quite a lot on several chat channels and even on a centralized bastion such as linkedin um you're going to talk about ederna my insider yeah please go ahead and uh go ahead and also sergio is going to join you yeah i'm here with sergio because uh uh while uh i was uh busy with the hackathon he prepared the presentation oh that's nice i need someone like that okay go ahead i'm gonna kill myself my video bye thank you we can't hear you sergeant okay okay can you see can you see my screen yes perfect so nice to meet you everybody [Music] and thanks to this opportunity to present uh our project uh shortly we are developing a video platform in which uh there will be no external enforcement onto creators i mean enforcement due to advertisements that advertisement needs that may be translated into the needs of other advertisers which somehow do not want to be linked to any argument which may lead to some issue so definitely uh creator and uh developer are there let me say think tank of this project creators who know the limits imposed by to that creativity as a users which are very tired about eds and with a sufficient acknowledge which let grow in as the need or to be liberated from these uh eds bombing and from the privacy snatching so uh let's uh briefly take a look to the issue we are talking about uh as already introduced um it's normally difficult when not impossible to expose all personal opinion or let creativity explode in all kind of expression you know uh art maybe not politically correct and these may be not appreciated by uh by the advertiser advertiser loves uh arguments in which anybody has nothing to say in hindu position we can use the most known video platform youtube as an example of all issues that creators are encountering and you know how much cost optimization of eds campaign lead to extreme profiling of users and how often these let me say overflow to personal data snatching and privacy violation so we here well know that free does not mean unpaid and when you are not paying for something you are the product this is the the the real matter uh moreover despite of margins that all the video platforms current video platforms are having a lot of creators cannot leave just proposing their art in this platform and almost everybody tried to ask some support from users and uh uh the very big huge issue is that users do not really understand the backend of their of their display most of them maybe like to stay in ignorance but we want to help them in uh understand their own value so we are proposing an opersus open source project first of all we want to uh that everybody may verify in any time our job and also can help us so we want to to shift focus from the advertiser to the user everybody working in the night knows uh the value of a personal data uh some user also knows that that this secret that everyone knows this the secret of puccinell as we say in italy but in our vision the value of this data is not merely an economic value it's a value linked to to let me say the soul of the society to to our soul and our proposed our disease rata is uh to let people self-conscious of what sharing with uh they they are what they are sharing with the world um and uh we will never own housing digital users digital cells and we want that community to be in the center of the the the of the scene so we let the choose people also the the the possibility to choose our index of contents or to create his own index we will give the opportunity to um let them create their own index as their own gateway so user will be really free in uh in in creating create and use the platform and the the what many people ask it who's paying for this service because if adis is not paying good pays we want to use it we want to improve a pay-per-user system assets based on the bandwidth but the value you know that the bandwidth value is not high value is some cent for gigabyte and with these we shall be able to sustain both our project and moreover the creator tool so uh shortly this was uh this is antenna this was the presentation we are startup based on the 3.0 technologies and thank you i i've been very short because we're in late you sergio so um yeah thank you for keeping it short did you want to add something to that so yeah um in this hackathon i will i i'm still working on a tool that we will use uh in practice uh with ethernet because as sergio said we will have an index that for a security scope have to be moderate from illegal contents and this is a can be an issue when an environment is totally decentralized so our solution is to keep control on data but make it totally transparent and verifiable and with the tool that i'm developing we will be able to clone our database index on swarm network so these were totally verifiable and also application will be probably able to consume data directly on swarm without asking to our server and i think this is a a good compromise to to have a control of the data in the index so yes you have any questions yes um so yes i know where to find you i did but i would like to invite other people also to find mirko he is in our telegram b support group and also in the swarm orange lunch of course sergio i hope you are there too and otherwise you have to ask virgo to add you to these wonderful groups of like-minded sort of like-minded people i mean at least we have the same goal if i look at all the presentations of making sure that the user is in control of their data mirko as always thank you so much i only know buena sera i know it means good night i don't know how to say good afternoon thank you so much and i'll see you soon um so next up we have um upala or apollo i have no idea how to pronounce it to be honest um this is sometimes a problem right in our space you read these things or you just see a logo on a website somewhere and it's like how how should i pronounce this i will know in two seconds because here's peter from ubala digital identity peter please unmute yourself and tell me if i was pronouncing it right yeah hi michelle thank you uh yeah almost it's upala yeah it's in sanskrit that means an opal the precious stone i see that's probably the introduction for a presentation so i'll just mute myself and let you do your thing yeah thanks so yeah i'll show you my screen now so can you see it now yes your screen is very clear okay so uh greetings humans we are upala an identity as a service or simply your blockchain native alternative to state so the problem that we are solving so currently there is no reliable way to tell humans apart from bots on ethereum or any other blockchains neither there is on the traditional web and the fact that there are over 1 billion people without any id in the world we believe that all of these are parts of unique human problem so existing solutions out there which are also tried uh blockchain native or new to uh thanks to blockchain like uh bright id and uh idina and many others they assess the probability of personhood meaning that they give a percent of how how are they sure that this person is a unique person so we don't do that in impala and we have dollars instead of percent and we show how much it would cost to forge a person account instead of showing how much we are sure that it is a real human so let's see how price of forgery works the main building block on off kupala is a group group consists of users with their scores and a pool of money and the main incentive and the main feature of the group and of bala is that anyone in the system can run away with the money with their score with their assigned score they can run away at any time and we call it explosion they can explode so in our first group let's let's say this last person tries to to run away or not rise but runs away explodes so this person gets ten dollars the pull the group decreases and the number of users certainly in decreases in this group so this is the main incentive within group not to let untrusted members in another incentive of the group is to provide scores to the apps they can decide on any model of how they charge the apps but let's say for for simplicity they just charge a fee for proving that a certain user has a certain score so the groups this way have an incentive to get as many users as possible and they have they are incentivized to get as as reliable humans as possible to to have as little explosive explosions and as much as possible of approvals to the apps the apps in turn are looking for huge groups which are score providers to them and they are looking for reliable groups as well and users i are looking for the groups that can provide the highest scores to them for the lowest efforts needed to enter this group so a market similar to insurance emerges but instead of trading coverage for premium in insurance model in upala scores are traded for efforts needed to to pass an entry test to a certain group or in other words to reduce explosion risk so these efforts could be or actions decreasing explosion risk it could be a deposit it could be some reputation at stake if you are uh creating a group with your friends or it could be a com some kind of work that uh that increases the probability that you are a human an example is a captcha so when you are solving captures when you selecting those uh pictures with traffic lights or with bicycles uh this is kind of work that reduces your risk of explosion so this way groups are competing for users and they try to set as high scores as possible but they cannot set this course too high because they then increasing the risk of explosion so if they set the score too high they will have they will suffer too many explosion too many explosions and they have will have to decrease the score so and this way the score will balance at the price of acquiring such a score so uh and or in other words it is the same as the price of forgery but let's better have an example opala can wrap around any group basically it any group of people or even any entry test any identity system is incentivized to create an apollo group to wrap up protocol around them so imagine we can wrap we can say that we allow we create an impala group for github users with accounts of five years old and they get they all get five dollars from us and we believe this is safe and they will not explode they will well you their id more than five dollars or let's let's get to a more simple example let's say we want to create a group of people uh where we let people in based on sms verification and we say that we will give a one dollar score to every person who passes an sms verification okay that works fine we get let's say we have a thousand people they all have a score of one dollar but we want more because we want we want more fees from the apps so we try to increase our score to five dollars but uh so we increased to five dollars so we got a lot of new users coming in because they are tempted by these higher scores but at the same time we have a lot more explosions because it turns out that it costs just one dollar to forge an sms verification so some hacker find this finds this out this hacker manages to create a lot of accounts on based on sms verifications uh this hacker spends just one dollar for each account but uh he or she can take five dollar score and explode and at the end for every account have a return of four dollars so it cost one dollar to create five dollars as a revenue and you have this difference of four dollars so this hacker is earning and our group is losing money so uh we'll have to decrease our score back to three dollars uh probably we'll still have a lot of explosion and then back to one dollar and this way we'll find this uh by this by balancing our price and by iterating the price we can find uh an appropriate rate of explosion which are we are which we are okay with and we know that the price of forgery of sms verification is one dollar so this is dictated by the market so yeah this is uh this is why uh uh upala score represents price of forgery and in simple in simple uh in in similar logic we can assess other entry tests other entry methods like using other identity systems existing out there using github accounts or your maybe social network accounts like twitter and many others so all of them can be priced in terms of price of forgery another cool thing that you can do with upalla and with this simple building block which we provide is to create aggregators meaning that a user can be a member of several groups and another group will feel safe to give this user a very high score for in this in this case let's say it's thousand dollars and these groups feel safe because they believe that will this user passing all those tests with all the being a member of all those groups will not explode uh this user values uh their reputation to such an extent that we are safe to give this user a thousand dollars so and actually this price is unlimited and if we have a user which is a member of like hundreds of groups and we believe this user values uh his or her reputation a lot and we feel safe to give very very high score which could be uh a lot more than forgery price of a state id uh so you you can buy a forged us passport right or russian passport on on the shadow market and there is a cost to it and we can we don't first we don't know this price and this price is limited and in impala the forgery price is unlimited so this way kupala could be a better solution than a state id so that's for the future but for now we are starting with this blade runner [Music] aggregator which is a group invalid terms it's a polygroup which curates other groups aggregates scores from them and provides those scores to any the app interested so we assume that this group will be huge and trusted and many of the apps will connect to this group so i have this ethereum logo here but it doesn't matter which network uses uh this authentication so this uh the upala is blockchain agnostic and it should be cross chain and blockchain agnostic because this way we can have higher scores so uh yeah that's uh that's how it works we have strong incentive to avoid watts we have uh impala provides very reliable threshold to the apps as we as the apps 100 sure how much user well is their id works like insurance and provides fair identity pricing which is price of forgery if you are interested please uh join join us a community on discord or in telegram i'd be happy to discuss your thoughts and ideas we are just starting and a lot of things need to be decided so thank you speaker thank you so much for that presentation that looks very promising and um i look forward to hearing a lot more about that so thanks for that oh yeah okay so you i was just wanted to ask you like if people want to get in touch with you where can they find you but the entire screen is filled with a qr code and your so that's beautiful um thank you peter and i'll talk to you soon yes i'm basically waiting for you to start daring to continue the yeah the presentation basically thank you peter again um so we're still running a little bit late um but i think we the next um talk is actually a pre-recorded um presentation of fedn decentralized storage integration um morgan and salman so um i think uh cashbury can just start the video hi my name is salmantoor i'm associate professor at uppsala university and distributed infrastructure scientist at scale out and together with morgan technifold our cto we will present our solution for federated machine learning so let's start so as you know that right now in the world data is the most valuable resource but what is actually important or valuable when it comes to the data actually the thing starts when we started to find new insights based on our data and the way forward to build any new business model or find new strategies is basically based on those kind of new insights that we can find from the data and as you all know that when it comes to the finding new insights from the data predominantly what we will do is that we will use machine learning models traditionally how we do the machine learning it's basically we have different data sources from those data sources we collect all the data at a central location and once we have our data available we do machine learning model training and once the models are available then those models can be used for finding what is interesting in the data it worked quite well this whole architecture for quite some time but nowadays it's starting to become more difficult and the reason why everything started to become difficult is basically due to privacy and security reasons and also due to the regulations it is not very easy to collect all the data at a single place by the way it's not only the regulate regulations that that are in this picture there are often uh some use cases where the amount of data that is generated on the edge sides on these uh data source nodes that is quite big in in its own sense that you it is not possible to collect all the data at on a single place so both in terms of big data and the regulations it is it is starting to become more and more difficult to collect all the data on a single location so then the question is that okay if we cannot generate if we cannot collect all the data on a single place what are the other options how do we train our models how do we do machine learnings that can give us that can basically enable us to find interesting insights from the from uh from the available data so there is the the way forward is what right now scale out is working on and this solution is basically uh federated machine learning how what is federated machine learning frederick federated machine learning is a is a is a way that allows all the uh the data holders or the stakeholders in the in in in the system not to share their data but still uh built a jointly trained model that can help to find new insights as you can see in this picture and and basically feden is a platform that scale out system is developing uh with the same kind of concept so as you can see in this picture we have data sources and each data source have a computational unit attached to that that allows allows the local data owner to do a model training and then based on this architecture we can uh the the data data holders can jointly train the model without leaking any data in this system so they can still hold a complete autonomy on the data but there is a possibility to train these models it's a highly flexible and uh a platform that is based on this hierarchical approach inspired by the mapreduce kind of approach and together with this fed and architecture what you can see is that there is another part that is called stacking and if i guess you uh if you are familiar with the machine learning environments model training and building a new model is one part but then what you need to have is a model serving platform a platform that allows the the uh ml ops operations to work in a production pipeline so together with feden scale out system is also working on that part within this stack and but right now the focus based on federated machine learning is all about this this part this hierarchical architecture for distributed training in federated machine learning there are different areas that are extremely uh important to understand and they have different and there are contributions coming from different uh different fields for example as you know in a distributed environment whenever you want to share some information between nodes the overhead communication cost is one area that one has to deal with computer science comes into that however if you look at the machine learning models the training of those models that are on a local site and the aggregation of those models uh on on on combiners and reducer sites in the architecture those need to be mathematically correct as well so all these things are somewhat very important when it comes to the federated machine learning however while focusing on these areas our current focus is is another direction that is how to build trust in this distributed environment and from here onwards morgan will tell us our future directions yes so you can go to the next slide so this is where the swarm ground comes in which has enabled us actually to explore fully trustless federated learning where there is a need for like trustless compute and decentralized storage and the swarm grant has we've been able to create a project now that specifically aimed to develop the decentralized storage components next slide so our current platform looked like this like salmon showed you with a tailored solution for several different storage alternatives as you see in the picture where you have for example aws s3 menu or any other local storage model but this doesn't enable us to trace the validity of the machine learning contributions more than to the more to the um the nodes that are directly connected and we don't have any means to share data across the whole nodes for validation um and with swarm and this enables us that we can move all those models assets from inaccessible and non-verifiable local storage towards an accessible and decentralized means of sharing encrypted models to build machine learning models together by collaborating in a decentralized and trustless fashion so um so you can um you can change to this to the other picture yeah so in the this swarm version we uh are able to as i said we can move the models out to decentralized storage so any member in this type of collaboration can validate models without having direct access to that model's owner so important to notice here also that models uh consist of often a weight set so a partial uh model is like there are local models on the lowest level there are partial models on the combiner level and the only one who has a global model is the reducer level but then the global model can also be accessed through different types of additional smart contract methods and functionality which we will explore further in coming projects so for example one additional uh product we already looked at this storage check pointing the models the two ethereum smart contracts and we will share this solution in in incoming versions of the fedon platform um yeah and this enables modern provenance then in a whole other means than we can see with the traditional solutions where we don't have these possibilities next slide so where we are currently in the fedon release cycle is the latest release 0.1.4 and we are now developing 0.2 which is soon to be released and at the same time now we have picked up the work with the with this swarm project to to enable a solution on this decentralized storage for to be able to explore new use cases and do model collaborations in this decentralized settings so as we develop this feedback and engagement is very welcome and if there are any other projects out there that are interested in such a solution that we are building now for instance decentralized machine learning mobile collaborations please reach out to us so we can see if there is any collaboration or synergies next slide so that was all from us at scale of systems and if you have any inquiries or want to contact us you can you do that through the email and with that i think we can say thank you and goodbye yes thank you and goodbye this was a video so i can't do any follow-up calls um to these guys um but again a wonderful presentation um next up and i think i'm gonna double check this um but yes this is the last um it's been quite a long list but i found each and every one of these presentations very inspiring and it shows the growth of our ecosystem and you know it's i think it's really nice next up laptop collective that sounds good laptop collective with thomas thomas are you here yes i am okay thomas feel free to yes there you are thomas is it is it is it okay you had to wait basically for so long to do your presentation but you saw all the other presentations i guess yes waiting uh to go um can i just ask you off the bat like what did you think was like you know what will you remember like from things that you have seen this afternoon uh well i i tapped into the discussion you had uh early on uh that was interesting when you discussed about all the incentivation stuff and and and those things because uh yeah i was was recently commenting on on having a casino uh basically on ethereum um and um and yeah well just the previous presentation about federated machine learning uh that was very interesting because uh that could solve quite some problems what you usually have with gdpr and and and stuff so this is uh very interesting stuff what the guys are doing yeah it's also something i i i've heard sahur who is doing um fair os he has been talking a lot about that too that you know like he's trying to explain to me i'm saying trying because it's not on his side he's explaining it very well but i'm trying to understand i should say um that that he sees like these decentralized spots and starts just as a first solution the most the more important thing to them is like doing like calculations and doing stuff with the data that's there um so that's interesting so let's go to your talk it's called minerva wallets here in antwerp we have a radio station that's called minerva and as i if i am remembering correctly this is a goddess of some sort uh but you probably know more about that so i'll let you explain that and many more in your time okay thank you very much um yes minerva is the goddess uh goddess of many things of trade uh of law of wisdom and um and in our case god uh minerva is is a wallet uh it's actually a crypto and identity wallet um and uh and therefore let me see sharing so i'll show you my my screen here so basically um when you think of a crypto wallet usually you have these kind of typical coin wallets and uh we see that uh very differently we see that uh rather in a way to say well a wallet contains more than just just cash or coins uh of some sort and it also is not a bank where you interact with d4 applications you have a lot of identification in your wallet you have your various kind of cards which give you some some some benefits in purchasing something it needs id cards it's having your driver's license and and stuff like that you have a lot of things in your wallet and uh making that digital uh is actually quite a challenge so basically uh getting to that point where you are having a digital wallet um then you have a very different understanding uh what is what it is um but before i jump actually into the wallet i want to say a couple of words who we are and where to position the minerva wallet within the whole stack so that you can understand where we come from and where we are heading to um and uh the leptin collective uh i started with this one uh is a cooperative in austria in graz um and we found it 2017 uh basically going back to meet up uh kind of group um and we're focusing on solving climate issues um and uh started working on that very very intensively of a whole stack so basically we are uh working towards as you can see on the claim uh towards the cereal carbon society and and and therefore we are very much connected to the energy and mobility space which is kind of causing all the mess we currently have and uh if you are um not just thinking about the wallets and you're depending on everything else i think everybody is discussing about energy consumption especially the the less involved people they're reading something on the news that bitcoin is consuming a lot of energy and and that kind of stuff and of course uh that is relevant uh if you're building new systems they should not just kind of inflate our energy consumption and uh therefore we started off building the artist's blockchain so basically i give you just kind of the the whole stack here so um we consider like an ethereum blockchain we consider as layer 1 so there can be d5 there is a lot of kind of activity as you know now like causing congestion causing high transaction fees and everything um and artisans for us uh the blockchain layer uh above and and and more in the case of artists it's it's it's connected to uh mobility and energy um and minerva the wallets is actually giving you the access to those blockchain layers below so you're having identity and asset management whatever that kind of asset it might be it doesn't necessarily have to be a blockchain asset it could be a verifiable credential just as well and on top of that we're building uh sustainable uh applications in the energy and mobility space and uh you find more on on youtube i'm sorry i can't access it right now um can't get there um anyway so um this is basically the stack we are looking at so this is uh uh important in my opinion if you uh want to to understand where we are when i talk about the the minerva wallet right now um this is uh this is a mobile app so you can uh join and want if you want to download you can go to minerva.

digital leave it sneak you have you can can join mineover.digital or go to minerva.digital and um and download the apk and install it uh on your mobile or even if you want to share with with you the experience you can can do it while firebase and here you can already see so it's it's very important to have a kind of a understanding how to handle the data within the wallet and right now we are um we are uh storing the the data from the wallet in an encrypted form on our server and uh and with swarm we are heading towards having the decentralized version of storing that kind of data so uh basically what you do in minerva you're having full control over your keys you're having one seat phrase and basically uh encrypted the whole kind of metadata you have in there in the wallet and i will show you shortly how it how it looks like all the metadata within the wallet is actually uh stored currently on our server uh well of course we can't read anything so you have to retrieve it but the the the point is we also don't like that kind of solution so much that actually we are taking care about the data and uh swarm will uh will help to kind of decentralize that part as well when you recreate or um when you are um um reviving your your wallet on another device or something so um we actually already kind of played around with some ideas how it could look like in the wallet so it could be either something where you are fully integrated uh in a way that you're creating within the wallet you're creating an account uh the most simple version would be just switching on and off basically storing the data on swarm uh it could be also kind of done in a way that we we actually create an account within uh within the wallet so basically you're saying my name my password and and you're storing it you're creating a fiat drop account uh or uh and of course basically uh you we have to have a fallback version so if you're kind of disconnecting the wallet from from from swarm uh via fair drop it would be basically disconnecting uh the account and storing everything on the device again uh and making sure that once let's say if you're destroying your device that you still have a backup somewhere uh where you can do the recovery action with your seat phase later on so um i will stop this sharing and i will give you a short presentation just a second i need to switch to the other screen so here we are so now you should see another screen just a second something i think went wrong do you see this um that's a screen can you please yes yes okay good good good good i was just not sure if you see the correct screen um so here you see my my my my mobile um basically you have um if i'm starting the mineral wallet you have you have the option of identities uh you have um accounts uh you have services you have activity and you have settings and uh as you can see right now uh there is of course no option for for uh storing it uh in a decentralized way that could be similar to that switch what we uh use for main networks um and uh or it is this kind of flow i just just showed to you so uh to give you a little bit of a of a demonstration as well um if i uh take my identities i can import a credential um from a demo uh we created for for a customer as you can see and basically i have here a qr code and if i i'm scanning that qr code it actually asks me uh for some data so it in that case it asks me for my identity i'm providing that and uh now i kind of need to switch to another screen because i think i cannot turn that off and i need more space on the screen so good so here i'm importing now a credential so basically i have now a club card of this automotive club uh within within my my wallet and uh basically if i touch it i will get this club card uh i can provide the same credential as i have uh just kind of scanned within the wallet and uh that credential is of course it's it's added to uh to my identity which i choose and also here i can basically do the same so i can provide an a cryptographically uh secured way of of a club card within my wallet and i can provide it to anybody who is kind of who needs that the same thing you basically can do um if you're uh or when you're looking at it on the crypto side so you could you could have some tokens you could have some coins and so on and so on so basically what i'm trying to say here is all that information that you have uh this account number one on the artist blockchain you have the account number two on the extract chain and you have those tokens uh this kind of meta information what you actually have is kind of stored uh as data as basically a verifiable credential is stored as data and all that data is then in this encrypted form lying around so it should be ideally uh on swarm and uh and then when you are recovering it you are getting back all your data uh within the wallets as you you expected that's basically it and um of course happy for any kind of question thank you so very much for that wonderful presentation yes i have a question but it's maybe it's not really unrelated but i mean not literally to your project i was just wondering i saw lovely kids passing by and so i was wondering i i together with my partner we have five kids between the age of 12 and 17. i hope i'm i'm not mistaken here um and so we we really try to you know explain what we do and and and you know what we are working on et cetera do you do that too or are your kids like way too too small for that no no no my daughter is 14 and my my boys is 12. uh he is more into games and and and vr games and and stuff like that so basically over here they're usually usually playing um all kinds of stuff and uh yeah too much all time um part of it i'm explaining usually when we are out for running uh i'm i'm telling her basically what i'm doing in the crypto stuff and then what what my day was and and and those kind of things yeah i think it's it's just i'm sort of proud that i'm a parent that has a job where the kids are actually interested in in you know what i do instead of i think it says a lot right if a new generation is interested and and they're heroes are you like what is this all about you know like tokens and stuff um yeah i felt like it's probably the best way to change the world right is by raising your kids and tell them all about decentralization and crypto etc are maybe i'm totally mistaken and we are creating monsters well i would not say so so i think i think um there is this kind of misconception of how money comes into the world and uh basically the banker which tells uh the next customer that he can't give him uh uh his money because he just landed it out to somebody and uh i usually say well it's the same what we're doing in crypto we're just making money as spankers do so it's like no real difference do they get in trouble in school then if they give their opinion in some uh no not that i know of so far so far not yeah we sometimes have that with like our oldest son sometimes he goes back to school and he's like wait a minute this is this is not true it's not this is not how economics work and then it comes always like my teacher said that it works like this we're like yes that's what they believe but it's not true so anyway um thomas um yeah maybe sorry for the chit chat but anyway i always like to see people with children in this space um because you know it is i think it's a wonderful thing um thank you thomas i will be seeing you in the near future i'm quite sure and um yeah thank you for like finishing this day with your presentation thank you very much for having me uh before we uh before we go out um i can't i just can't can't say goodbye without um having seen my good friend gregor today because you know we have we haven't been seeing each other in this entire event and gregor are you ah here he is i'm so happy to see your face because i know you know why i'm always so happy to see your face in this kind of events because you have this big grin or a big smile that's a combination of i don't know i would call it like a rebellious happiness like yeah you you know that these things are going to change the world and that's why you're smiling like that and and i like to see that because i i do the same right i'm always so so excited about this so can i go how did you spend the afternoon i mean what what did you like and you would give me some feedback yeah well you know you know me well you you you got it uh spot on you know it's like every demo for me it's like uh it's just empowering it's just great to see you know like how um how new projects are emerging how basically uh that it goes into the direction that we like to see also with swarm you know that uh into building a better world into building better alternatives that empower the individual at the center you know so so it's a really good to see this and i actually can't wait to see progress and all this and uh the other thing it's what we also need to stress is there's actually quite a lot more projects building on top of swarm that didn't showcase today true right how many did you know this by heart probably like how many grant recipients do we have in total i didn't calculate exactly i would say i would say 31 51 we're in the first round uh and we are just closing uh the third round so there's still a possibility to apply and after that once we process the third round uh of course we will then announce a new round it's uh we see it uh we see this as the beginning of the journey of how how we work together uh also with uh projects and it's uh also in this regard it's also for us a learning process so uh we're very much thankful also to all the projects who are showing trust in us by building on form you know yeah yeah it's it's even more than that right like like seeing to me it's always so joyous to see people i yeah i don't know these people you know i have no idea who they are where they are coming from but then they start talking i'm like huh you're like thinking like me right you're like you believe the same things and you want to see the same changes i i want to see in the world and you know it's i find this a very moving experience right just to see because this time it's very specific i mean if i walk into like an event like an ethereum defcon you know it's it's become like a very broad broad space of ideas and and and goals for people to do and i feel like in swarm it's a very i don't know it's like a narrow goal we're still having you know because we that's just who we are the more people that come in they come with their own ideas and they expand like you know the intellectual range of things we we are working on but this now this community to me is just like yeah i have no words to describe it to be honest it's just like it's so exciting it's and you know it's also it's um i'm fascinated by the diversity of the projects by the spectrum you know like uh the twisty uh and at the same time what i liked also today uh how it also started with the discussion and the talk you know and you raising also the concerns about tokenization it's uh there's relatively little talk about this uh right now within within our community it's like more looks like uh how we got together because of some kind of a shared ethos which we try to articulate essentially through the fedex society principles and it's about yes i would say even like freedom uh digital freedom is at the forefront it's uh how do we create these new tools and solutions for empowerment i i think i sorry to interrupt you but it's so important because if you look at ethereum d5 all that stuff a lot of the time it is about financial freedom and i don't mean that you have so much money that you become free from the system and what i mean literally is like you are free to send your money anywhere or do whatever you want with it without a third party involved but to me um your personal data actually makes up who you are right i i you know it's not only i i used to say like the sum of your transactions that you do on a blockchain this is like your identity it was like i think how uh mata feels you know post it like that but i think this is not completely true of course there is true to it but the the more complete truth is that you know storing the the fruits of your creation of the the stuff that you have been doing not the transactions with other people even but you know stuff that you did you know by just taking a walk you collect miles on a digital app you know like the step counter and storing that in a place um you know all this data coming together that's to me your identity right and and and being able to show selectively to the world these parts these pieces of data you know in that way you can reveal your identity so in a way i would say that swarm um you know is even is is also or is even more important for identity management or control over over how you present yourself than a blockchain um that's why i'm i'm kind of you know interested now in in the whole idea of tokenization and if it's if it is you know is it really that good of an idea um you know we also saw i know you have an opinion on this we also saw um will speaking about maybe infrastructure should be something universities do right and other non-profit initiatives and institutions do what what is your take on that i i really like the build stock uh and um you know i think this is this is the power of the economics to actually uh look at uh look at existing systems with skepticism re-envision them see like how do we how do we fix them um well uh well i like defy a lot i like what's happening there you know my concern there is that uh you know we use like this wording like the wall street guys because on the wall street guys know exactly how that derivative uh works that is i don't know linked to that and so forth you know but now therefore takes this complexity even one step further like okay so i have like this token this governance to this liquidity pool that does this and connects with i don't know what in how many flash loans kind of things you know so and this is again coming back you know like to these ethos to the principles it's like in all this happening and all these noise we need values we need these clear goals to uh to keep our focus to keep us on our course so what the you know what the wheel was also talking about and the basic income um and uh if what you're uh saying about identity i think in a way all this comes together because uh identity like you said it's like a multi-dimensional approach depending on which context i use like what kind of identity yes it could be just my transactions in some context and some others would be maybe my rapist on github or something else i don't know uh so uh and at the same time using crypto economics and thinking about data and i think identity data is identity will become a lot stronger the more ingrained we are in the digital world the more of our life is happening in the digital realm the more this is linked then to identity and to the economy and here maybe you know it's like maybe even data this is one of my dreams i don't know how to do it but maybe we can realize that uh we can create such data economy that creates a universal basic income so it would be the first bottom-up currency where uh the currency was created from the bottom and then we don't have like these strong hierarchies you know so yeah well at least at least the cool thing is with web 2.

0 um you know the economy has been proven or it has been proven that creating data is a very valuable thing right and and so it is a matter of time i think um for someone or something to figure out how to how to do a basic income based on the data you generate i mean it is i love it because it basically is a very philosophical thing it means that if you exist you're you are valuable right if you are a person existing on earth this means you're valuable and i mean yeah it's like you know i think uh we are very far from that it's uh if i there's like one this approaches the so-called adjacent possible you know so it's not this is not now yet i would say the next thing to innovation but here we come exactly back to sworn first we need our self-sovereign data first we need to have like agency over our data before we can even start thinking about implementing solutions that unlock freedom and value so and yeah we just need to push forward you know it's like we're just starting now and be patient because you know i i i literally had to figure out how to stay calm and and relaxed because you know i see all these possibilities and sometimes it's really hard to just be patient and wait you know the tiniest detail that has to be developed before we can move forward with something um did you hear my star trek reference in the in the in the panel conversation yes yes i was very touched by it and of course you know that uh i resonate completely with the reputation economy so there's even a book written about this i never managed to read it but yes a scholar like an economist analyzed how it could work so yeah because the even like didn't star trek even go beyond reputation based um i was always wondering kiki and i had this discussion discussion after watching um you know this movie right like first contact and it's like who gets to decide in that in that kind of futuristic society who gets to decide whether you are going to starfleet academy or not right and then and then if you become a captain of a of a ship or not like like how does that is there any literature literature on that in the star trek uh i think no it's okay i'm not an expert but there's vaguely there are vague hints at it but i would say it's a basically a mediterranean system so how well you do and how virtuous you are that that i guess translates into some kind of probably informal or any uh kind of reputation system i mean the thing you know it's like the interesting thing so star trek really suggested a lot of things the the authors in general the sci-fi authors but they didn't suggest decentralization and tokenization yet i i hope that that that activism and and you know like um principles combined with tokenization doesn't lead us to a dystopian world you know i would love to see a star trek utopia don't get me wrong i'm just like literally touching wood um that we are doing it the right way and going in the right direction it would be such a nightmare if we unleash like a facebook you know 3.0 let's say that you know that that where people become basically slaves to a token um so that's sometimes what keeps me up at night at least yes it's a good thing that it keeps us up at night and that we speak about it because only in this way and to share experiences and engaging also as many people as possible we can minimize or try to avoid these things we cannot never know everything and be sure you know uh about everything but we can do our best let's do our best that's probably a good way to end today's uh presentations we're all doing i think our very best and and i love seeing this i think i'm just suggesting something here just throwing it in the group i think our next meetup could be in kenya uh if if corona is over i would love to go with the whole swarm team to kenya and to check out what lewis and will are doing there because i think it's a great real real world example um gregor uh looking at tomorrow the last day of the liberate data week and hackathon um yeah by 4 p.m that's like central european time everybody should stop working and you know get your hands away from the keyboard and send in uh the things because are we doing this publicly if we're doing doing like the jury you know stuff is this going to be publicly or are we are we just asking us i would imagine yes the demos should be public and that we all uh watch them and uh we take it from there that's gonna be really fun um so tomorrow at four i think we we come back live to do that and by eight in the evening um we will have our closing ceremony gregor i suppose that we are gonna continue our conversation there um so i want to thank you all for this long afternoon thank you gregor and uh i really enjoyed it like every talk you've seen this afternoon will be cut up and will be posted to youtube and to swarm i hope um but we'll see about that and also you can see the entire live stream again on twitter because it was streamed there um from antwerp belgium i beat you good night and i'll see you all tomorrow to do some jury and deliberating stuff thank you all and bye-bye