Into The Metaverse It's All Fun and Games William Idrissi Octopus Network; Chase Freo OP Games; Jo

you my name is my name is william madrici and i'm head of partnerships at octopus networks we build out robust app chains for our people on the shards of near protocol as well as i'm the founder of the near verse which is a explore to earn metaverse built on near protocol with human guilt sure how's it going um hi i'm kanan i'm the founder of stardust we're a software platform for games building in the metaverse easiest way to think about us is a rest api that is backed by the blockchain you pick up a sorting game the game developer tells us you've just acquired an nft in game and we go mint into your managed wallet on chain so we're kind of a full stack solution for games looking to manage between one to ten plus million uh monthly action players i'm joe from gamerdrive and gamerdrive is a metaverse as a service platform and we help organizations create really branded experiences and we're starting to integrate some web3 technologies and think about nfts in an interesting way and that's something that i can talk about further we're actually hosting the virtual component of east denver on our platform so if you have any team members or anyone at home who want to visit or check out the different sponsors they can do so at gamer drive at eastdenver.gamerdrive.com are we just supposed to keep speaking cool so uh our thesis on i'll just keep going on blockchain and games i think it's important to note a lot of people think nfts are really cool and so they should be in games we kind of go from the opposite angle games over time and as we've seen in the past few years are trending toward open economy and mmo so games like roblox rec career minecraft even older games like runescape world of warcraft eve online what blockchain does is it's not a requirement for an open economy but what it does is it globalizes and supercharges in open economy and it's where these games are headed and so you can have things like reits and games interoperability between them and blockchain is a core facilitator of that and nfts are just the unique digital asset value that you earn by spending time effort and putting skill into these games and that's kind of our thesis surrounding why games should be using blockchain it's not just a cool technology but it really takes your game to the next level and globalizes it makes it part of a broader economy yeah i absolutely agree um when it comes to games we really get to look at digital communities and being able to understand digital communities and how they can be connected with blockchain is very similar to trying to figure out how to connect with physical communities so i think that blockchain is i really believe that the internet has connected us all already yet we can't really trust each other immediately and i think that blockchain is going to allow us to form legitimate legitimate tribes in the form of video game guilds or dials or what have you um and i believe that that's going to be one of the more powerful things that blockchain has given us actually far more powerful than tokens and coins that we've uh that we're very excited about so far yeah um so i think that when it comes to different perspectives about the metaverse um there's certainly a lot of organizations and games coming out integrating blockchain in unique and interesting ways play to earn models etc but i think what's really important is also defining a better way for people to meet and connect online using these technologies and nfts as you guys many of you know they're they are they have certain properties that make um them especially useful in metaversus and i think that um when it comes to providing utility with these nfts in these type of metaverse environments and that is essential because web3 as much as how hype it is how excited we are and how much money is flowing through the system is ultimately how do we make people's lives better and how can we enable better connections online awesome play to earn next topic um so from that perspective i think you know we kind of see plato ernest umbrella and fit a lot of things into it that i think are distinct there are probably three distinct verticals that i see under play to earn the first as we know it today is probably the globalization of work in a digital domain which is why we see people in southeast asia playing these games it's just work time arbitrage as we take physical products to be made in china we're taking our game time and actually you know out choicing it to a kind of the third world in order to kind of consume it in the first the second is i don't think anyone would be playing for money in the us but rather they're playing to maybe have a stronger sense of ownership on what they're creating and that's kind of the urn component there so you create something unique in roblox let's say for example it's truly yours and that's your sense of earn and then i think the third component the third vertical is it's actually a new source of revenue for game developers where they can actually make revenue off people playing their game earning unique value within it and potentially even as something as simple as a secondary market royalty actually we get recurring revenue as a game developer and those are kind of the three verticals that i see within player arm yeah i love play to earn i think that um what we did is we created a new marketing concept i guess it's play to earn but we call it explore to earn where you're able to move one tile and then we have a contract that mints a new token and if you're moving on your land or public land you're able to get that but if you're moving on someone else's land then you have to share 50 50 with the owner of that land so what i really love about that is that it aligns interest with the land owners and me the game developer we both want to farm user attention right we both want to own amazing lands and have nft museums or concerts or all sorts of things that will help people be able to get more activity on the on their land and i believe that a lot of blockchain contracts are just that being able to align interest together is a very powerful medium so play to earn explore to earn all of these new gaming concepts i think are just going to kind of teach us about how digital communities want to connect with each other in general why can't we have explore to earn at east denver why can't we have different types of incentive alignments within our own companies and our own doubts right so i honestly think that having a simulation well which is the virtual world or metaverse however you want to call it where we can sort of see that and test it out uh will ultimately lead us to smarter contracts and different types of organization in the real world that we're going to benefit from yeah are some really good points made i think ultimately there's a common theme of enabling individuals to be empowered um to be able to not only make money but to make their own decisions um utilizing the blockchain and i think that's really something that's really important when it comes to the metaverse so i think another component that's really important that we're starting to see now is a lot of brands especially these you probably heard news around different fashion organizations starting to integrate interesting marketing and branding experiments inside the metaverse and i think that we're going to start to see the metaverse as another channel for marketers and organizations to directly connect with consumers and i that that in itself i think is really exciting um for whether um and whether a company is building a game with a play to earn model or whether it's for a connectivity software or some other based uh metaverse awesome um i guess you know i'd like to pose a question to my fellow panelists um you know what is your biggest uh you know thought on on interoperability of game items between games have you seen anything you guys like um and i guess you know where do you think it's going in future i'll take that um i would love to uh interoperability i think is why vitalik created ethereum right uh he didn't like that world of warcraft could shut down his digital items and it was a centralized uh thing so i believe that um that's going to be at the heart and core of it we believe in a multi-metaverse we believe in portals we believe in wallets that can track your digital assets throughout the metaverse as well as throughout web pages or web3 all of these different things we think gamers are absolutely going to want and i also want to be able to have a quest when it comes to interoperability i want people to have to visit other players games or other things because wag me you know like if you're an influencer online having a collab with another influencer is not detrimental it actually helps both of you so i think that the game developers and the game arenas are going to learn that lesson of collaboration and really want to have that interoperability throughout their games yeah some again i'll just add that interoperability enables nfts in particular to extend their value beyond the source platform into other platforms within the ecosystem and that um i think um speaking to all these nft projects that are popping up it's more than just a pfp it's more than just hype how can we enable individuals to own these nfts and actually utilize them in other platforms and applications and i think that's a trend that we're going to start seeing over the next few years thanks and i guess my my opinion on that is um and great points made is that the most interesting thing about transient ip is that it exists long past the game so if you look at games usually the ip is connected to the game if you can have a transient ip that exists in a broader world you can actually have a source of revenue as a game developer that's tied to the ip instead you know your game can shut down but the community is really built around ip not the game itself the game is just an experience for that intellectual property and that community um and so i guess you know kind of switching gears and looking at you mentioned about interoperability between games and the broader different chains uh vitalik's mentioned recently how he doesn't think bridges are the future necessarily and so how do you think in an ideal world information or data would go across jones well as a developer like as someone that builds products and things like that i'm sure you guys can agree that we have to be flexible with the techniques that we are trying to use but steadfast in the goals that we want to provide value with so as long as the goal is interoperability it could be an ic ibc bridge right like it could be a proof of burn right like it could be so many different ways um but i think we're going to find it because it's very important to us and i really think that right now we have more abilities than just creating the tech stack you know um we have the ability to create the economic stack and i would say that money is the api for humans right like you can call on them you can talk about the money you can't control an api from signals and json data but it does help to have it and i think that right now all of our developers have found out that we can help program money which helps program communities and i think that that's probably going to be the largest thing that we're looking at yeah um when it comes to [Music] metaversus and how they can integrate blockchain and a variety of different blockchains and the data that are stored within um within the blockchains i think that you know all i'll just say is that there's a lot of opportunity for these platforms and metaverses to utilize data user user data and other type of information not just to verify users on a platform without having to do a login for example you could have a basically a single login through and really any platform but also to migrate your rewards your history of utilizing these different platforms and then basically enabling a really rich data set for different organizations to create even more inspiring experiences and again like this type of data ultimately is owned by the individual and they get to choose what sort of data they want to be able to share with these platforms um and that's that's a really big theme that we're working on at gamer drive as well thanks and i guess my thoughts on interoperability is i'm not quite sure what the final phase will be but if you look at where blockchains are today i think they're very analogous to operating systems in the early days of the internet you know you have linux better for some windows better for some and mac os better for others um in different flavors of each and different i think you could you know say those are forks if you will um of like red hat or something so i think that's kind of where it will end up building on something you said which is ownership of data and talking a little bit about the security behind that um people owning their data has different levels of security only your own private key it's not for everybody where do you see that ending up and then something else you mentioned about is you can choose which data you share to the application you're on but this is all public data and so it can be mined of course whether you allow the application to see it or not so very interested to get get your take on that and yours as well that's a great question um i don't really i don't know i don't know everything and i think ultimately it's up to the um i think generally individuals should have the power and that is something that is really important that we see with really a lot of these tools and organizations is about giving the power to the developers giving the power to the individuals to make decisions on how that data is used across different platforms and i think that is important with that said of course there is there has to be more information more tooling that makes people comfortable with sharing certain data and also for these nfts and this different projects that store data associated with an nft on the blockchain there there will be a given set of standards i believe that will arise that will enable all these other platforms and dapps and meta versus to utilize that data in useful ways but i do think that the opportunities are vast and it really depends it's like a question of like whether you should be anonymous on the metaverse platform or not and i think honestly i think that there's benefits to both uh its benefits to demonstrate that you are who you are you are say you are there's also benefits to being semi-anonymous and also benefits to being anonymous and these type of experiences are very diverse and really exciting so when i think of user data i think of their journey and experience online and i see the trend in web 3 where your journey and experience online now has immense economic value so if you had a journey in experience where you bought a ens domain then you would be able to get air drops and all of these things and i think that humans and other users are going to want their data to be valuable i think they're going to want to be known that they bought an nft before you did they're going to want to be known that they joined a certain area of the metaverse before others right and i think that uh third parties or even the the metaverse itself is going to reward people for their experience and for what they do online and i think that's a sharp difference um for from exploiting data and harvesting data that web 2 is doing and i'm not saying that that isn't going to occur in web 3 as well obviously you could the block chains most blockchains are public you can scrape a lot of the transactions and a lot of people are making a lot of money following different wallets which i think is like a pseudo anonymity right i'm anonymous but my wallet isn't my wallet has a history of owning certain things and people like some wallets are very famous uh so i think that that's really gonna be what we're gonna do with data is it's gonna be far more of a love um would be a far more complicated relationship than what we currently have uh where we're like oh no our data should be private and like no one should really know about it whereas now in web 3 we're going to be like wait a second does our data mean something to the community will other people respect it will they say oh wait this guy has a board ape and he bought it not a board app that he bought last week but he bought a board eight on the transaction the day they came out right like all of these things is your data points and i believe that like it's just going to shift a little bit towards proving to the community what your journey was and what your experience could be and and i think i agree very much with that which is that the history is very important and we don't really have that today it's in an immutable and transactional and a public record which is going to be very important and i think from the security side i think the where you put your data is going to be a choice by the user and i don't think necessarily one model is better than the other but i think the choice giving that to the users is really what this movement is all about and why i think you know applications that force you to download meta mask is is a step in the right direction where they want users to own their data but it's not really encapsulating of the average user that doesn't quite know how to do that and so providing them both options one that they may know one that they may not and can learn about is is very valuable so i have a question for uh the panel as here is what sort of uh design decisions or um ux have you experienced that are dif that's different in the metaverse um perhaps experiments that you guys are trying with design for end users compared to typical web 2 based platforms yeah so i've been working with metaversus well in the web 2. i helped comic-con with their metaverse when kovit first hit and i helped with the near panel talks in the metaverse um prior to that and we had no web3 things but i will say that the ux and ui and designing it was very different from how we usually design a normal website first off you don't really overload your users with paid promotions and logos as much as you would on a normal website or even a t-shirt or what have you right because you have 360 degrees of communication with your users and you can be able to create scenarios where your sponsors or the b2b connections that you have will be satisfied with their representation in the metaverse at the same time providing a very enjoyable design and experience for your users so i would say that the metaverse provides a whole lot more communication and with that comes a whole lot more design and thought through we're thinking through the color palettes we're thinking through the fauna the all of the different things where we never would really think about that with a normal app or a normal website yeah i think that's a great point and i think it all comes down to i guess i'll talk quickly about what stardust is doing um stardust is not i think your typical sdk like you may see with a sequence or evently or taurus some other sdks that allow people to build a social login on top of games which is what we allow game developers to do we're actually more of a managed wallet system so think of a back end similar to coinbase as applied on top of games giving users that given users that ability to earn or get nfts in game but yet not having to manage their private key or anything like that and the reason we opted for that is really comes down to games at scale especially on mobile are all cost per acquisition versus ltvs and so if you think every extra button typically that you'd click on an app is about 10 drop off you can imagine if you have five buttons right you have uh like 0.9 you know and -1 basically conversion rate to something that has no buttons um and so from that perspective i think it's important from ux perspective if you guys really want to onboard massive amounts of users you have to have the least amount of buttons possible while giving the user the highest security possible and that's why stardust has opted toward a model that really allows people a social login but still giving them the ability to off-board if they so choose yeah great great points made i would just say that the other perspective around ux design i think provides a huge opportunity for human psychology especially in 3d interfaces because how people interact in the 3d world actually sometimes you actually feel nervous you actually feel certain emotions as if you're attending a live event and i think that that provides a lot of opportunity and research on how to create better user experiences based on human psychology and how they move around what they're looking for how to give them the right and relevant content how to show them maybe the right branding you know advertisements within a metaverse environment um and i and i think this is a really exciting period where we can learn a lot about how humans can interact within a 3d environment so i first off i really love stardust and i think you guys made an amazing metaverse for eth denver um so i'd love to ask you guys what goes through your mind when um you're thinking of what you can provide to the gamer community or your user base um so i think the biggest thing when i started i've been doing stardust for about a little over four years now actually the first iteration of her website was late 2017.

um the biggest thing for me was how to give all of the users and the developers the benefits of blockchain with none of the cost and that's why i think finding a tech stack that is a rip and replace to what a game developer is using today just with a set of apis but also for players so that they gain all of the benefits of nfts and their interoperability and different defy concepts that we can put in game directly through a rest api endpoint that's extremely important and that's how i think the value accrual to be will be for users i think education is a very very expensive thing to do over time whether it's in user drop-off whether it's an ad dollar spend etc and so i think it's on us and something we've tried to do at stardust is allow developers to encapsulate 100 of the user base that they have now but while also teaching them about what the future is going to hold and hopefully over time maybe offboarding them into an economic model that is more decentralized than what they have today i would just say simply um when it comes to comparing like web 1 web 2 web 3 honestly there are so many definitions of what web 2 web 3 represents i've heard um it's uh basically you could read write own i've heard that many times owning within the web3 environment but i also think that it is more than that i also i think that web one was really about information right you have access to a lot of information online web 2 was really about connectivity but in a shallow level because we see a lot of social applications that popped up that focused a lot on likes a lot unfollows a lot on these these sort of metrics that give rise to enabling a influencer culture within within the world right now and i think web 3 provides a layer above that now how can we enable better connections between people how can we actually enable people from one region to another to develop a better bond a better experience with each other with with the brands associated within these metaverses and that's something that's a philosophy that we believe that in gamergybe and i think is an important aspect beyond ownership as it relates to the blockchain so i guess uh last question before we take questions from the audience so please so we don't sit up here awkwardly just ask you know think of some questions before we all go around one more time um you know love to ask to the panel what is something you guys think your product does best and what is something that you think is your product needs to maybe you know something that could improve upon what you're continually improving upon over the next you know 6-12 months there's really two key themes that we're really focused on number one how can we enable people to develop better connections with each other and with brands within a metaverse-like environment and this is a repeat of generally what i said before and that human connection is really important and i think there's going to be a lot of again a lot of research we have to do a lot of new ways to enable people to find others and connect with them in meaningful ways the second component that's really important for us is accessibility how can we enable as many people to access such experiences no matter where they are no matter know really what their situation is of course you would have to be connected to the internet but could we make an accessible solution that's as easy as google meet or really accessing any web to application how can you make that accessibility the same within the web3 application and i think that is a really important way to transcend this more of a culture that we have the subculture into something that the majority of people would be able to use and find value with so what do we do best and what we would like to approve awesome so i think what we do best is our core mission we're focused on i hate the term starving artist and i honestly believe the web 3 revolution is going to include artists because we're able like i said earlier to set up the economic stack in our programs so what we did at the near verse is that we have artists built in every transaction and every economic stack that we have um every time that you buy land in the near verse 20 of it goes to an artist guild and um we also have a lot of defy tools because near protocol is really great at offering defy and we have an app chain from octopus networks but um with these tools instead of the user getting the apy every day we're able to do what's called creative staking where the artist gets the apy every day and she's able to come to your property and build out more pro more art on your land more buildings make it higher and you're able to see that growth happen on your um nft and at the end of the day the artist she gets paid she's involved in the economic stack you end up with a more valuable nft so it's not just on the goodness of your heart and that's what i think we do best it's really trying to think out tokenomics that include the users that may not have been included before because i don't think wag me necessarily means that like the top people or like every single person is going to make it what i really think it means is that the people who weren't going to make it in the old methodologies and the old web 2.0 will now have the greatest opportunity to make it of all time and we want to be able to allow for that something that we feel like we need to improve on is um more accessibility a lot of our metaverses require the users to download software a lot of our metaverses require users to own crypto all of these things are limiting our onboarding so what we're really trying to do and trying to figure out is how we can tap web 2.0 communities and bring them into web 3.0 because decentraland may have 10 000 monthly active users but anyone from the video game space will tell you that an investor won't even talk to you unless you have 10 to 15 000 monthly active users so um thank you so much that was a little louder than that come on all right thank you guys that was a an amazing amazing topic so now we're going to shift gears to the merging of defy and daos exit by the bar if you're exiting you guys can talk to each other if you want to talk to the gentleman um through the bar or through this right here through this door anybody want to talk to everyone ah what time is it 6 10. here we go i'm jose caballer again i'm your mc for the evening it is 6 10 and we're gonna be shifting gears to the merging of defy endows where has this union gone what are the pain points and how can we improve moderated by andrew thurman with matthias hirschman from reef and dane lund from alliance big hand of applause come on do it don't make me a platoon thanks guys i can tell the crowd is the same place i am i just want to go to bed i might lose my voice in real time here but we'll get through it um talking about the merger of defying dows it's been high key a spicy couple of weeks in dao land a lot of at least one successful governance attack maybe more depending on how you define governance attacks um it's it's an exciting time so we're gonna dive right in but uh two very smart people here to talk about it with us today uh let's go down the line uh introduce yourselves please so i'm dane lund i'm with alliance i'm our dow architect so i'm daos all day um so i'm very excited to talk about this topic hi i'm matthias kirschmann and i come from reef chain i'm a lead developer so i'm more off topic but i have an overview we'll we'll always take a layer one dev whenever we can get one though that's just fine by us um so getting right in it seems to me that the current state of dow tooling is really insufficient for the amount of value that dao is currently secure if you take you know d5 total tvl the market cap of governance tokens and the treasuries that these projects control you're you know in striking distance of a half trillion dollars uh nonetheless these are still incredibly rudimentary very simple hypothetically that makes them more robust but at times it's like a whole lot of value being secured by kind of like sticks and crayons sort of contracts um in your view am i right in that estimation like what is the current state of what you can do with a dow and is it sufficient to handle where we've gotten with d5 so i think we've come a long way from the dow right so if you think about governance for instance discourse is a huge improvement from having curators kind of elevate votes i think where we need more work is treasury management so one of the biggest things that i think about is like you know a lot of times the the keys the private keys have to be like managed by somebody there's not a lot of privacy there like there are new kind of tooling mechanisms that are being built with you know zk enablement they're allowing for privacy there but we're not quite there yet it's not deployed i think we need to think a lot about privacy um we definitely have to think about governance hacks so you know every time we think we've gotten an improvement when we have urine point 2.

0 or whatever we run into a wall so that's that's actually good we we then iterate and get better but we certainly need better tooling and we see a proliferation of tooling you know development but but we need a lot more to continue to kind of react to the problems that we're finding yeah i mean these are the things that are very new and they're still in development and we're dealing with so big amounts that um when something happens it's really a big tragedy and things need to be developed over time and usually the best way is to go small and grow but here there's like so much attention and so much uh will to to engage other people that um i mean so much engagement with the funding and everything that when it happens it's just uh a mess yeah agreed uh well let's talk about a few examples of those messes uh last week um i can't remember the name of the protocol only six figures market cap but uh a delegate proposed a vote to transfer to themselves control of the token contract minted infinite tokens and tank the price that project's now dead uh a clear example of a governance attack um likewise over the past month or so uh justin sun has been um taking out massive loans for governance tokens of popular d5 protocols and um in ave successfully uh passed the proposal to for ave to have a deployment on tron and in maker dow and compound unsuccessfully attempted to have a stable coin that he's linked to um added as collateral uh whether or not justin sun's instances can be called a governance attack is kind of an interesting um question to get into to the extent that you know everybody's allowed to take out loans you know there's it was within the the rules of the system right but the question is then need to ask should it be permitted anyway i got a lot of [ __ ] from his pr person for calling it a governance attack so maybe it's not maybe it is uh but these things can happen and it seems like everybody's talking 2022 is going to be the year of the dow but so far it's shaping up to be the year of the dow as an attack vector that drains a whole lot of money um are we going to see more of that how quickly can the development of this tooling sort of outstrip um you know uh these systems as an attack vector so i think it's it's a great point and it's it's really an arms race so i think this really points out the importance of architecting governance so if we go to like malicious attacks there's there's there's an element of you know innovation with governor bravo for instance where there's kind of a cooling off period before the deployment of a successful vote but i actually think you could go to something like bifurcating um you know votes that deploy money to a specific token holder versus you know general deployments they're you know broadly governance um and and then if you had a separate timeline for instance it was longer um to have a self-interested kind of implementation if there was an emergency situation and you had an emergency you know committee like ave does like you know um you know a fair number of the developed d5 protocols do they can actually react faster i think the other thing is there's a huge problem with voter apathy and that's actually a governance issue because if you don't construct a system that that promotes people to actually participate you end up with a circumstance where there's like a discord proposal that gets elevated and somebody mints themselves tokens so that's really problematic i mean more broadly like you know we also have to think about standards and rules right so what is self-interested and if we we talk about the justin the you know the the i guess the tron um you know episode you know it's it's kind of uh it it's kind of a standards versus rules issue i mean he might have played by the rules of the game but if you had some standards that applied that described what a self-interested vote is so that you could pick up on it um and maybe rectify that would be a better situation but but it definitely points out needs for innovation on governance yeah these are the front fronts like dows are the forefronts of social evolution and um the stakes are high but it's basically the price of the evolution right it's unfortunate that these uh get so much attention and it's it's so much uh funding so when it gets wrong it's uh it hurts yeah um let's let's talk a little bit about that voter apathy point that you brought up um because voter apathy isn't just you know a sort of pr black eye for the industry it is in fact a security issue a lot of the most important votes pass with just a few dozen addresses voting one way or another and only a fraction of a governance token circulating supply and so it seems to me that in order to prevent governance attacks episodes you need to encourage more participation because that inherently strengthens the system so do we do that with you know bribes do we try and you know give cryptoeconomic incentives for people to participate or is this an issue where it's these are public goods and people should be getting off up off their ass and like trying to support them yeah so i think it's a great question and i think there are two things we got to think about one is defining participation so you could imagine that there are seasons of heavy participation by the entire dow and that might mean you know delegating some powers making sure you're sorting through who's doing a good job within a committee structure or not and then there's also the rewards issue i think you definitely want to incentivize voting um whatever function that the dao is supposed to serve actions that support that um that could be in a social dow actually doing things and building things that could be in a protocol deploying things but you want to have a system that selects for the people who are actually going to you know put in effort and actually increase the value of you know the pool by virtue of their efforts and i think that's a difficult thing i think that that the biggest part though is we don't define participation so then if you don't know what participation is you don't know how to participate you end up just you know either sitting on a stake and hoping that it goes well um or or moving on and and that leads to the circumstances you're talking about where five percent of people vote or you have you know um you know you have clustered votes where 95 of the people vote the same thing or the token holders these are problems that you definitely need to solve with incentives and clear messaging about what participation is i mean here is the great uh thing that it's very transparent and it rewards the actions and over time we're going to find out how to monit i mean how to measure the right actions and there's no much room for politics it's going to be just very efficient and i think it's going to be great right i like that uh if we can get rid of the social layer maybe that's a good thing i like that a lot um talk to me about actually architecting these systems though um it seems to me that daos face a similar trilemma that blockchains do you know you can only optimize for so many things uh perhaps the most famous example of this we've seen recently is with wonderland uh danielle cestagali and michael patron uh convicted felon turns out that you know you can move very quickly you can raise a large treasury and you can um pursue very complex yield bearing strategies with that treasury uh as long as you're a multi-sig and you're effectively centralized so you know we know that certain structures work better for certain things but when we're talking about defy and the needs of you know a community-owned protocol what particular thing should you optimize for and which axes on the trilemma should you aim at yeah so if we're talking about defy i think that one of the virtues of d5 is you can actually decentralize fairly quickly if you want to decentralization is really important um you know for a variety of reasons legal um for for having you know a lack of um the ability to perform governance attacks by you know or 51 attacks uh but but i think you're right there is an optimization problem you could optimize for governance but that would probably require a lot more activity um so then that might compete with decentralization um i think that the things we need to think about right now though are security um and we need to think about you know the participation government governance element going from there we can secure our systems make sure they're functioning well and then start to optimize for other things so i think if you think about the trade-offs as static in time and they're one relative the other that's problematic but if you think about let's secure one two and then work on three i think you end up working through it better but but it is a matter of sequencing and recognizing the trade-offs yeah and over time we're gonna get like the perfect uh structures for particular things so um for now it's not very optimized for any particular thing it's more like a general or bigger chain changes um but over time we're gonna see like um very focused organization or like it's like blockchain you can't have the decentralization very fast block times i mean uh you have to pick one and here it's going to be the same right um let's let's pivot a little bit to talk about another potential weak point in defy daos i think you know after the publication of the sec's dow report um they said that had the dow not collapsed in 2016 uh they would have pursued um uh some kind of enforcement in 2017. it died on its own so they didn't have to but this is a regulatory body that's actually very familiar with dao structures and in particular with dao's managing treasuries it seems to me that daos aren't thinking hard enough about the kinds of legal liabilities that might come with a just an average joe token holder not even somebody who's contributing meaningfully to the protocol voting on a treasury distribution there might be legal liabilities there what kinds of things can we do with legal wrappers to insulate users and developers from these potential regulatory risks great question what i'd say is i want to separate out some of the securities parts because this is generally important from a legal perspective i think is you know as well so if you have a bunch of people in the united states doing something collectively and there's no title no form to it they're a general partnership each person has kind of plenary liability for whatever happens so if you have deep pockets you might find a plaintiff's firm that comes after you so you definitely i think you need to find a legal rapper of some sort now what a legal rapper is is a very tough question it could be that there's kind of a legal organization that kind of represents the actions and takes direction or it could be that the entire dow is subsumed in a legal structure but you know i think wyoming's done a fairly good job of putting out the dow llc it's problematic because it's also in the u.s regulatory kind of landscape but then you can also look to some other jurisdictions that are being very thoughtful about how to set up foundations for instance you can look to switzerland liechtenstein you know the cayman but but you definitely need to think about how the nexus of your dao structure on chain relates to the legal world because you know to date daos aren't nation states they may become them in the future but they are not powerful enough to have their own independent governance system they are still part of the legal system so it's really important to find your your legal rapper or representation i love the idea of adao having a standing military by the way let's let's get to that weird future let's [ __ ] go yeah i mean like these are very new things and probably when they grow up we're gonna need to change the laws as well and i mean hopefully they grow up enough so that we have less politics in our uh governments and in uh you know working of the government it's going to be one big dow that everyone can can you know uh contribute to yeah who was it uh somebody said uh you know it's weird we only changed the uh multi-sig for who has the nuclear codes every four years it's bizarre we we we got to rework that system guys um let's let's linger here a little bit more i you know you guys have both worked in um define dow development you know what's the mood in the office when it comes to these regulatory risks i'm curious to what degree you know the the regulatory ambiguity and you know uh this lending platform that got a 100 million dollar fine but also was apparently approved to uh move forward with its product there's it's it's such a mixed bag you know what's it like sort of working under this cloud and uh to what degree do teams when they're developing feel this palpable risk hanging over them yeah so at first it's it's something to be taken very seriously and it takes a lot of thought so i i think of dow building is something that's best done slowly methodically and very thoughtfully uh but i also think that that if we're thinking about the united states there needs to be some leadership probably on the legislative side difficult to do because of gridlock but we now do have some candidates that are more or less single-issue candidates i mean you look at matt west he's really pushing you know his pro-blockchain stance i think that there's a there's an issue with the integration of the regulatory bodies where there's not clear distribution of authority there's certainly jockeying for it but it's really a legislative problem somebody needs to clarify you know what is in charge of regulating each aspect i would advocate that you might even want a self-regulatory organization of people who actually understand what's going on on dfi who who are serious about promoting things like non-fraudulent behavior and making sure that people aren't just you know creating windfalls for themselves so it's got to come from the industry too otherwise what you're going to see and we see this a lot people thrive offshore there are a lot of you know if you think of countries like singapore they're really putting forward pro crypto uh policy and they're going to reap the rewards so i i also see it as somewhat of an economic existential problem for jurisdictions that aren't aren't thinking about how to promote this yeah this field is moving very fast and the the jurisdictions are not following up they're like staying behind so probably those countries that are that can adapt very quickly will get the benefits and will will grow in the future even more or have a bigger share of the market got it um finally i want to talk with the about the costs associated with dows in addition to being rudimentary contracts they're often kind of very expensive and you know they're huge security uh trade-offs associated with using snapshot or signal voting you know is the solution we just go to more efficient l-ones that manage treasuries somehow on ethereum like how do we architect away the problem and the barrier to you know interacting with these systems uh from a gas cost perspective yeah i think this is a great question because it brings together a lot of what we were talking about it's both it's inhibiting better tooling um and it's inhibiting better governance so you know if you think about deploying on ethereum even if you thought okay you know our token holders can afford you know the gas cost of exchange what you don't think about is okay well what if you wanted to have a sub dao or a working committee that had a tokenized stream and its own multi-sig well all of a sudden you're actually talking about very costly governance and so there are some people are thinking very thoughtfully about the integration between the l1 as your you know base layer than l2s for you know specific governance actions i tend to think that's our best solution right now and then there are people who are moving to you know less expensive l1s that is difficult though because then you you end up with situations where you might not attract enough people to like think about governance very thoughtfully you might not be getting you know the best devs i i think though that that there are a lot of devs that are thinking very seriously about this and it's it's something that the governance thinkers and the developers have to coordinate on very closely yeah we have like um a project defy project on the ethereum first and the fees are so high that uh only like the big ones can afford those transactions and that's why we started the layer one loafy block chain so it really solves the problem and solves the problem for defy and for this dows because it's much easier and it's more publicly accessible so you can anyone can do even small transactions or with small funds so it opens up the field for new new possibilities right awesome um well that's all i had for our panelists uh let's take a second though um show the crowd what are you guys working on in d5 endows uh how are you guys pushing this space forward yeah so uh you know at alliance we we really run a premier accelerator focused on all of web3 um very enthusiastic about what's going on with our cohorts we're on cohort number seven we have some that are putting together really interesting you know launching platforms for for daos we've got super dao which i'm very excited about then we have others who are building very bespoke um integrations you know things like uh the cardiff for daos and and so i'm very optimistic about it but at alliance we're really founder focused um in in all of web3 and i think we're just seeing amazing and brilliant things coming out of our our cohorts so as a reef chain we have our grants program and we're super excited like i was watching the talks around here and it's very nice to see the like charity projects and uh environment projects and it's amazing and we would like to participate in that and support those so it's great stuff to come awesome so yeah check out alliance and check out the reef chain grants program uh any questions from the crowd is good question uh it seems like you know who is the responsible party for making sure that there's uh sane legislation coming down the pipe yeah i think um you know defy has actually been doing pretty well on this front um the genesis of the blockchain association out of a uniswap grant uh the grant itself was somewhat controversial but you know that's a sign that you know these organizations are really pushing forward then you have um you know candidates like matt west who's being supported now by decentralized political action committees hotel pac for instance um it seems like that infrastructure for um successfully lobbying is starting to come together i'm curious you know what are your guys's view on how we're doing on uh telling the boomers what we're about so i i definitely think like putting putting aside like the moral who should like if if we don't do it nobody's going to do it and we're the most incentivized too so i i think at every point that we have the opportunity to uh engage in a like respectful and and very thoughtful manner on what regulations work we should you know there are there are a lot of great organizations i work with you know global dca i think they're great um every every chance that you know one of us has to speak to a legislator talk about the specifics if they'll give us the time that's great otherwise i think we need to write a lot about it and we need to find a platform and and we do have good candidates we need a lot more um so i think it's it's participation participation participation i don't have experience okay um well i think that's it then we really appreciate your time and thanks to the planos for joining us big hand of applause awesome gentlemen thank you