What Are The Catalysts of the DeFi Renaissance | ETHSofia

[Music] okay uh hey everyone I'm I'm really happy to be here uh at this stage with uh such an amazing uh speakers from projects that I suppose uh most of you at least know them because they have done so much in the in the defi space so thank you all for being here uh before we Dive Into the Heart of the conversation um I I suppose as I said most of the people in the audience already know uh know your work know what and have used your projects uh but let's start with a simple exercise it would be cool if you can uh briefly introduce yourself but also uh tell a bit about your projects into in a way that even people that are new in the space will be able to understand so yeah who can who can start oh yeah there we go uh yeah so I'm Michael from from Oiler um I started the project back in 2020 with my co-founder Doug uh so what is oer it's a lending and borrowing protocol uh and in really simple terms uh what it allows people to do is to earn interest on on on their assets to make them productive so lenders deposit assets into the protocol and borrowers come and borrow from the protocol and pay an interest rate to the lenders and there's all sorts of different types of lending and borrowing all sorts of different types of credit markets and uh Oiler started back in 2021 with a certain opinionated model of what that should look like and uh just last uh just this year we reimagined the protocol to make it to abstract a lot of the functionality and essentially make it uh more of a meta protocol that allows you to um allows Builders and other developers um to come in and build on top of Oiler their own types of credit markets so you can build uh anything from simple lending and borrowing pairs to more monolithic RV style lending protocols or stable coins uncollateralized lending there's all sorts of possibilities so in the end ol V2 is like a developer toolkit or an infrastructure layer for credit markets hi I'm ESS uh I guess head of telegram chats at gearbox uh kind of strategy Biz there really um gearbox is for someone new to the space gearbox is kind of like a margin account where you can access both simple and complex strategies with leverage um for those of you know a bit more about Defi and stuff it's kind of like a leverage enabled smart wallet um and then there's also a lending side where you know people who use a leverage have to get get the money from somewhere so there's a there's lending pools um on the other side uh hi everyone my name is Grayson I'm a lead engineer at ziran um so zeran's mission is to make defi accessible to everyone whether you're first-time Trader or you're experienced Trader as of now we have three major consumer products first one it's a defi aggregator and buff tracker which allows users to manage assets across different chains second one it's a non- custodia waterall provider and also through a mobile um browser first interface which allows users to make transactions inside the app with different deps and recently we also launch a thir product which is a CK based L2 chain which support gasless transactions and which makes the entire defi game leveled and on the business size we also have our API product which allows users to curate onchain wallet data in a nice rest API manner so this is like the entire product sweet for Zan hey everyone I'm Andre I'm the head of defi for Lei Lei is a tax Bridge chain aggregator so think of it as a railway system cross chain cross border and you know within the same border so to make a parallel you could go if you want to go from Sophia to Varna or from Sofia to London we'll find you the best route like Skys scanner for uh onchain assets if you want to go from ethereum mainnet to arbitro from one coin to the other we'll find you the best path on top of that if you want to zap into certain pools or vaults or LP positions we will not only find you the best path but also facilitate the actual entry and zapping into the said smart contract so any token on any change to any token on any chain any token on any chain to any kind of action on chain okay thank you thank you all these were really good direct explanations of what your projects are doing uh but let's dive let's dive deeper um it's been four years since the uh popular defi summer of 2020 and and since then uh we've seen that the market cap in the space is around 10 times bigger the tvl is around 50 times bigger uh so we can say that in terms of numbers the space is quite different uh but throughout this time we can see that uh as as usually most users are mostly interested in high uh quite often also the meme coins and yeah what do you think about is uh would it would the space continue like this or would it mature uh would we see a shift towards more SU stainable stable native y uh and lower youth opportunities that bring more security and Longevity ESS can you can you start to that uh sure so I think like it's the wrong framing like the problem isn't high yields the problem is high risk right like what everybody wants is high yields and low risk and what we have is high yields and high risk um I think in terms of like the better risk adjusted yields I think those are coming but I don't think the current level of kind of call it speculation or risk-seeking behavior is going to go away like that's part and parcel of the industry I think what we need is more options for lower risk stuff as well like if you look at trafi it's not like it's not like there's you know in trafi you can also take loads of risk if you want to there are like zero day options there's like you know you can buy junk bonds for example these are all like high risk higher yield opportunities those continue those in defi will continue to exist it's just like how can we also have a separate offering for people who are a bit less risk-seeking um with ideally high yields and lower risk or if not like medium yields lower risk thank you not Andre can you yeah sure so remember like five years ago or six years ago when we didn't had any type of defi what kickstarted defi it was the lack of yield so yield with yield started everything and then we had those ginormous you know thousands per APR which were not sustainable at all so in on a long enough time frame the market will find an equilibrium and right now we're seeing with uh rwas with t bills on chain that the yield is not only going down but it's getting more and more sustainable because we can tap into the traditional yield but also within defi like Leverage looping like lending and borrowing you can still have sustainable yields of like I don't know like 12 to 15% without any risk assumptions that you have to take as a user or as a founder of a protocol um just adding to that I think generally the atmosphere is going to turn into more sustainable one but like slight adjustment is that sustainable doesn't mean that it has to be a low you but the the key point is like it has to be stable so I think over the past four years we learned a lot of mistakes from you know like ponics and these kind of schemes are not going to like make a long run and it's going to be like unsustainable maybe for a few months it's good for your API but it's not like for a few years so we've been seeing trends like companies doing Real Deal products where they introduce like Revenue share scheme or like Al as Andre mentioned like having real world assets that are backing up it's something that is gaining more tractions and then like also for um different kinds of like companies they kind of improve their uiu in general which educate a lot of people about how to you know take risk we're doing like a lot of advanced like maybe transaction simulation to teach people how to you know trade of caution this kind of thing so I think industry it's like transition in that atmosphere okay yeah so as an overview uh we don't want lower Ys we we want higher still high Ys but with that are like native secure um Andre you mentioned about real world assets so tokenizing rwa uh is also another growing Trend uh do you think that uh rwa further will be integrated within Defi and what what play do they have in in defi because they're with quite different Natures I mean they already are integrated in defi for I don't know two or 3 years you can see that for example in maker for many years that part of the yield is coming from rwa if if just the narrative is or wasn't there to be put out and you know in a storytelling way like other projects are doing right now which they're not Reinventing the will but because we have this you know unique talent in defi of coining new terms for things that existed for years and years in trfi and it's not per se bad but with rwas we already had them on chain right now you can just have better access in a more uh fashionable way sort to say so you can get you know t- bills you can get access to whatever other uh ponds from different states on chain which is good it's you know we're defa is ever expanding so besides the you know genomics that we have within Defi and mem coins now this helps and facilitates getting more institutions on chain which would seek those kind of safe yields I would say um I see I'd say with real world assets what we're seeing an emergence of is really onchain Finance rather than just like hardcore decentralized Finance there are when when it comes to real world assets often customizations that protocols need to to have built in that allow additional features that uh institutions require when trading these assets but Andre was saying that they're already here you can you can already use T bills as collateral inside lending protocols to borrow non-yielding assets and and carry and do you know carry trades and other things that uh people have loved to do in traditional Finance for a long time but it's um I think that the market is only going to keep growing because ultimately the rails of defi um the thing the technology we've developed is just so much more efficient the disintermediation lows the costs the composability is a massive Advantage you're not stuck in one sort of isolated corner of try where you have to you know get permissions and move it's just so so clunky and so slow to do anything in trafi and in defi it's just so quick to move between very different products at very very low cost so I think those markets are just going to continue to to to grow and overall when we're talking about yields before the yields in D5 were also often very reflexive depending on what was happening with the price of Bitcoin effectively you know as Bitcoin went up or or eth went up in in value uh the demand to collateralize those assets and borrow dollars when uh you know Rose and uh that increased the yields on uh on dollar based deposits for things like usdc but as soon as the the markets you know uh calmed down a little bit those those yields essentially started falling again and so we ended up having these really reflexive uh Cycles um and over time I think that's we're seeing an end to that is this like boom and bust sort of Cycles are slowly tapering out and that's because the yield from tradire is now flowing on chain uh and uh making things more sustainable in the long run so yeah I think it's a big growth sector and it it won't be boom and bust like previous Cycles you know people always look for that kind of narrative but I think it'll be slow steady growth as as more and more institutions uh decide to come on train um I think hello hello I think one of the important things to stress like just to reiterate what Michael said like composability is so important I think rwa is a great um um as long as they kind of don't break one of the core things about defi which is like everything can work together as like Lego pieces right um in so far as there projects that are like doing rwas and keeping everything composable not keeping it so that only like whitelisted addresses can use this thing um I I think I'm pretty bullish in so far as there are institutions that kind of want to come in and like do things totally on their terms like everybody's kyc everybody's wh listed um I think well not that I don't want them to do that but I'm not as bullish in those things yeah I guess just finally add a point is that so Al debr is nothing new we all agree that but it's just like I guess in these two years we're seeing a lot of tractions that are going to retail in institutional uses I think mostly because of expansion asset classes so like think about our B we first started with like maybe treasury bills and stocks and then now we have like real estate luxury goods and like whole different kind of asset types so I think it's like opening more doors for traditional like tradire users or like retail users which allows them to have utility Beyond just like maybe governance token speculations so like just um giving them more options to do that and then like at the end just like Mass adoption all goes back to retail and then bigger players so I guess like these kind of Trends it's like just more progression that we've seen in these two years rather than it's like a new trend okay thank thank you all for these uh perspectives on RW so let's shift to focus a bit on uh layer twos as you know this is another really uh interesting narrative new l2s are popping up almost every week uh I think that it was the previous week when we saw the uni chain uh by Unis swap uh so how important do you think is the interoperability across chains for the defis future and also like what are the risks of the fragmented ecosystem uh and how can we manage those those risks uh yeah Andre yeah I can start uh I mean for our business is great the more the better because we can always aggregate a new chain and go on a new chain and facilitate the realway for the users but there's this very famous post on Reddit by vitalic in which he debase cross chain a cross-chain future versus a multi-chain future and kind of the conclusion the conclusion was that we can't have a cross chain like a unified cross chain system ever because the incentives are not well aligned as long as the VCS will pump money in and you can raise more money for an L1 or an L2 evm or non evm you will get more and more dep chains and for all the cosmos Maxes like I'm I'm so sorry for them because their thesis is now becoming true in the EV landscape and they they tried to do this three four years ago within Cosmos even though they have a bunch of messages sent across chains still it wasn't really translated into either price for their tokens or for actual user base uh that would use uh their scaling Solutions or Cosmos chains so I don't think it's bad but incentives for now are not well aligned and I don't think way will ever have a true cross chain unified ecosystem it will be a multi-chain and what super chain is doing uh optimism Foundation is doing right now with the super chains is great but still it's it's still fragmented liquidity and every single scaling solution is trying to build their own ecosystem of chain of chains within that ecosystem and even though you can jump from one chain to the other in the same ecosystem if you want to go from arbitrum to optimism or to salana you still need Bridge so the liquidity is still very much fragmented which for the user I guess that in some way for the power user is great because they can always seek more yield and more opportunities but that's not how we on board the next billion users telegram has done has done a great uh job at that of having first the users and then uh deploying their chain not the not the other way around um I guess I would firstly say like I think all the l2s that gear has or will in the future deploy to are necessary infrastructure for ethereum scaling and all of the other l2s that we won't deploy to all scams um but like I think it's definitely it's a real problem like with gearbox for example ideally the ideal ux both from our perspective and from the user perspective is like you deposit your money in one place right and then wherever like that money should be lent out to it just goes there and we don't yet have the technology to be able to do this I don't know whether or not given L2 infrastructure whether or not it's even possible Right like there's like based rollups and all these things but um I think hopefully the ux like if if we're going to live in this world where there's like 100 l2s um and we want defi to well Define ethereum at least to continue being competitive with salana and other chains then this is something that needs to be solved and as a non-dev I would say like devs please do something um yeah my perspective on that I sort of disagree that it's it's going to be a problem like it looks like a problem right now because there's this this uh you know Cambrian explosion of like l2s popping off everywhere and they're all getting funded by VCS and so on but liquidity begets liquidity if you don't differentiate yourself as an L2 the liquidity won't stay with you for very long it will just leave and it will aggregate to places where it's used more efficiently so it's a it's a problem that will be solved Naturally by the free market the free market will solve this very quickly and prune away all these l2s that just aren't needed if your L2 doesn't do something unique um then uh it just won't survive I don't think and if liquidity fragments to to to a variety of different l2s in the future maybe there's space for 10 or 20 or something um I don't think that's a real problem in itself that's not fragmented liquidity as a as an issue that's fragmented liquidity because it's servicing real user need and that's that's a perfectly acceptable form of fragmented liquidity if I'm aggregating uh trying to sort of abstract all these differences away from all these chains I don't think that's often like helpful if I'm doing a swap I probably just want the cheapest possible price I can get on that Swap and maybe I don't care where where the swap is happening but if I'm depositing assets as collateral as a massive fund you know tens of millions or something I want it to go to a place where where it's the safest and all these different LT all come with very different properties in terms of their security features and so on so they they will differentiate and I think they will all find their own uh use cases and lots of them will will just die in in due course yeah so I would fer to separate the question into like general purpose L2 and also app chain L2 so I think for general purpose like Bas opum like interoperability is important because at the end it's about for users point of view it's about Capital efficiency and also unify experience so you don't want to spend like 30 bucks for just like breing from one chain to another so like really having those Innovations to optimize the roots and things like that it's like I guess from User it's really important and at the end like users don't care about like which chain you're trading from it's all like the aim is to go chain antic it doesn't mean like we have to unify to use only one chain but it's just like how do we make sure that our product is built in a way that it's delivering unified experience for users and about app chains I think I don't see as a fragmentation but it's more like diversification I think like at the end um so trains will innovate in a way that like for specific use case there's like a two gold chain to build on that for example like you're building game f maybe in m x is one of the options if you're building like privacy and there's like one chain for your use case on that so I think like this kind of ecosystem uh having like two go chain to build on which use case is something I see as a biggest Trend and also like we're still in a Evolution stage of this whole L2 phase I think they having more L2 is like boosting the kind of comp not really competition but collaboration between different players and just innovate more it's something I would um I would uh foresee okay and from your answers I got really interested and I think also it would be interesting for our audience if you don't mind sharing like as users yourself uh currently how many uh chains uh do you do you use you can just basically say a rough number uh or yeah if you want you can basically say these few chains that you're using uh I would say three so ethereum M base arbitrium and then occasionally experiment by going elsewhere but I don't don't really have time to be move moving chains very often so not not very many for me all right uh clearly not an air drop farmer over here like 10 maybe 10 plus basically yeah I mean you try to put a little bit on every hoping for an air drop you know I has free active chains for me so I use etherium base and also polygon I didn't hear any salana guys you're not doing this right I'm on salana yeah uh I guess that the the big ones like eum M at salana and and uh the L2 scaling Solutions but for us at Lei like we're aggregating we we have to aggregate all of them so it's like more than 20 H okay so we we do have some in the from the from the speakers okay so let's uh once again shift our Focus to another really critical topic uh Security in the in the defi space with defi uh exploits becoming more and more uh sophisticated uh what is the way to like balance security but also in Innovation uh because as you know uh in defy especially if you have a project that you constantly update you make changes on the Cod this can this can lead to some vulnerabilities uh but on the same time if you have a for example an immutable smart contracts then it's set in stone uh but you can't make any changes and if for example the market conditions change you you just need to deploy from from from the start uh so Michael I would like to start with you because Oiler has gone through a really impressive audit process with with the launch of uh Oiler V2 if I'm not mistaken something like 12 different audit companies have have created audits for for the project so can you uh can you mention uh like this is probably one of the most extensive and also expensive audit process that we have seen and given that experience how do you think the industry should address security uh Without Really stifling Innovation yeah I mean it's um we're working in a really nent industry right this is it's barely 5 years old and so we're still learning a lot about best practices and the best way to secure protocols over time things have been improving but it's always going to be an arms race you're always going to have as we make improvements the bad guys make improvements in their models we saw very what looks like a very sophisticated attack on on radiant yesterday um so yeah it is extremely challenging and everybody has to put security top of mind for absolutely every part of the process from building the protocol um for Oiler V2 it all started right at the beginning of the process we had people coming you know right from the architectural design of the code we had security minded people come in to help advise and say whether they thought the the initial designs were a good idea or not that started way before most of the code was even written really just you know high level proof of Concepts I think it's really important to write uh clear and simple code um keep things simple modularize everything a module is just a you know a very simple piece of code that does one thing extremely well that makes life much much easier for Auditors because they can focus on that one module and ask does that module work well you can then audit modules independently and in composition with one another and that was one of the processes that we we Ed with Oiler that's why it took so long is we had all the modules independently audited right at the their formation and then later once we built them all the modules together into a more complex product the the complex product itself was audited in the context of all the modules um there's all sorts of different approaches you can take to secure protocols it's not just about having Audits and having guys come in and like the code and and take them off all Auditors have different styles and different preferences um so it's important to use a different a variety of different Auditors um one of the emerging Trends I think that's been really successful has been audit competitions so we hosted the one of the largest ever audit competitions on Cantina for 1.25 million Bounty and what's great about those competitions is you know if you hiring open Zeppelin or one of these other leading firms you know you're going to get some great Engineers coming in but everybody has gaps in gaps in their knowledge everyone makes mistakes um with an audit competition you can you can recruit hundreds of different uh people from all different walks of life that come at things from very different backgrounds and uh I think that can close a lot of the gaps that are potentially left by traditional audits I think that's been a really successful model um other things that are really crucial have been uh developments in fuzz testing and formal verification uh you know formal verification this method where we can like literally prove that a certain piece of code does exactly what what um it's intended to do and first testing you can sort of blast blast protocols with Randomness and push through and see trying to explore edge cases that just weren't picked up by traditional audit so there's lots of Technology here that that we can use and I think we have to have every team has to employ this uh swiss cheese model where you um you you you'd literally do everything every different step and hope that any gaps that potentially left being W by by one process get picked up by another process uh yeah you just have to spend a lot of time and money on it and uh and that's how we That's How we'll build a better better future and that's how we'll innovate anyway you can't rush these things thank you yeah audit competitions are really getting more and more popular I I also know that there are a lot of bulgarians like participating in this audit competition so yeah it's really cool uh cool initiative uh Grayson I I'd love to hear also your take on that like how can we find the balance between uh security and Innovation yeah um so definitely like from developer side of you definitely do your smart contol aits like do your decentralized insurance I also feel that like because of like all these kind of scam and exploits actually kind of boosts us to think about security more and put like users security as a focus so like let's say using CN example when we build our new features we always think about how do we make users feel safe so for example we've been investing in our transaction simulation been integrating with like different empty spam Solutions like fishing alerts and things like that like recently we've been using block gate I think to just kind of flag users if they have made some sort of transaction that may be malicious we try to always like kind of make tokens in our verifi list and then suggest like what kind of um tokens that users shouldn't trade or maybe should trade with caution this kind of user experience like people really love our product because of that and also like we have been seeing a lot of Industry Trends about uh how people can do smart contract to like build blockchains in more secure way for example like maybe AI co-pilots that makes you like detect Loop hose and smart contract and things like that so I think actually in some way because all these kind of Trends it's making us build things in a more secure manner um as a non-technical person I have want to add here I think like the nature of the nature of the exploits that we've been seeing has changed a bit right like defy summer is like a re-entrancy or like economic exploit like some like somebody listed a collateral and then like you know you like flash loan it and then take all the money out kind of thing and more recently it's been more like compromising multisig or compromising ux uh uis of projects so I think like in in that sense we already have seen some progress like we're not making the same mistakes we're making different mistakes like having two or only like three people like be able to do a transaction in multisig or something um but yeah I think like one thing to remember is like in defi we're all build building in public like if if your bank gets hacked like would you even know would they even know whereas like if you're in Defi and you get hacked like everybody knows you know what I mean so um I think over time we Harden we get better and um never forget that like everything that is happening in defi is like accessible to everybody whereas you know your your financial app your on your phone like you don't know what's happening there they they have to like tell you if if you got if they got hacked right um yeah so that's something to remember I mean you can never be too safe as a protocol and we actually wrote a big piece of research on Bridges with it's called the cross chain risk framework in which there is now the most secure Bridge risk is a spectrum so it really depends on where you fall in this risk Spectrum you have some advantages and I'm talking here about bridges but by doing it more centralized versus decentralized but you're giving away immutability for example so it really depends on how fast you want it to be how secure you want it to be uh how much human math you want to put in behind the actual logic or you just want to make it automated it really depends I guess but at the end of the day I think that for all of us builders in in defi security is the number one priority H thank you thank you all for the perspectives uh especially something that you and pleas mention that in defi everything is really uh visible so when when we when we have an exploit uh if you're on Twitter in like matter of 5 10 minutes uh after the start of the exploit uh already there are probably tens or hundreds of of tweets uh about this so this is something that really uh changes the perspective of also the the people that they they they see that there are uh new and new exploits but I also see that uh the the space is maturing the security is improving uh so we definitely can be uh optimistic about about this all um and yeah let's try something something fun to to keep the energy up uh let's try a rapid fire round so the rules are uh I will ask each of you a question and you have basically uh have to respond with one word on one phrase so keep it really short uh okay sounds good uh let's try um if you had to choose one core defi value that defi should never compromise on what would it be disintermediation uh composability trust thisness security all right all right different answers uh what one met or misconception about defi uh you'd like to debunk I think that it's lacking in transparency that's what people would say in like outside the industry go it's a bit Shady or lacking in transparency uh I think this idea that like Protocols are behold to the users like self- custody means self- responsibility so you also as users you also have responsibility for taking care of your own funds I think for me will be defi is antisocial that it's not a pony guys trust us okay uh what's one piece of tech or infrastructure you wish existed for defi but doesn't yet uh the ability to not do all the crap with metam mask and like you know blind signing and you know just like press use my fingerprint to make transactions yeah that'd be cool something like yeah truly consumer facing not in the way that like like not with me as a def5 power user consumer but like like my mom something like that yeah yeah I think like stronger narratives of the product you're trying to build not just like incent incentives or like things that that unified cross chain messages and the layer zero folks please don't come at me after this if you had to describe the future of tii once again with one word or a phrase uh what would it be the future Global Financial system up only up only inclusive bright um what's the best piece of advice you'd give to someone entering the defi space for the first time this could be cool for our audience yeah do a lot of research spend a lot before you build really get to know the basics well uh don't succumb to nihilism like we're what we're building is really cool like yeah yeah understand that it's like try losing some money and trade a situation I've seen so many success stories from people that didn't had anything to do with defi or crypto just because they were there so be curious always do your research and always stay in defi you will find success in some way shape or form uh okay lastly I wanted to ask you uh from this rapid fire session uh can you mention one defi project uh that it's of course not not your project but some other projects uh that you really like uh and yeah bonus point if it's not really one of the most popular ones I year was my my one of my favorite first projects the ability to you know the a protocol that essentially optimizes your yield for you you never do that with a a bank account right you just stuck with a bank account and it's uh like even if you know you're getting a really crappy deal and they're treating you badly you just never leave and so uh imagine just having a you know a really a really nice protocol that would just optimize and and move you around into different places to to optimize your your experience and that's what year you know was back in 2020 that's what the promise was and I thought was really attracted me to defi back then so I've got to give a shout out to that uh liquidy I guess because they've been around for a while and they have such a strong commitment to like decentralization and all these things that what it's like what def is all about um there's a game five project called a GOI I think it's like uh some game for project by a and then just like mimicking your childhood games and then it's pretty fun too for first time like def uses to step into the world of defa I think what the folks from Jupiter are doing is great they ship good product they have product Market fit and whatever they ship the youth ERS love it from day one okay thank you these were overall really optimistic answers uh so it it makes me feel really bullish on on on defi but it makes sense often here in uh in the Bulgaria and around organizing the event we're are joking that we are all bullish and we are in Bulgaria so it it makes sense and uh yeah so lastly I wanted to uh for us to go to the topic of the of the panel discussion uh what do you think will lead to the defi Renaissance I mean would something lead to that are we waiting for something and if yes what would it be I mean uh should it be something like different market conditions are you waiting for some specific elections uh or is it is it something else what what do you think about this no I don't think we're waiting for anything I think people in the room next door hacking away right now are like slow steady progress building like day by day the only people that get sort of um if you speak to builders everybody's always Perma bullish like when you speak to the developers everyone's very excited about Defi and not in any kind of panic I think there's this Obsession in crypto partly driven by the you know the the Bitcoin cycle the fouryear cycle of Bitcoin where like we have to have a new narrative like there has to be a new narrative that takes us to the promised land and uh we don't need that we have already some great Tech it's constantly getting better the the UI the ux is is getting better all the time and I think we we just need to keep on building and uh we'll get there I think one thing that might lead to quote unquote defi Renaissance is if if ever we get like regulatory Clarity on being able to distribute divid like dividends uh to token holders then not only do some of these things become much more investable you also have like an entire new product like class of products that are like like defy derivatives on derivatives on top of like dividends basically right so you can think like oh if you hold like Unis swap token and you're getting fees okay now you can have a Pendle Market on the dividend that you might receive from Unis swap like there's like a whole class of product out there that doesn't exist yet and once this regulatory unlock happens if it happens I think we'll see a lot of cool stuff yeah I think for me as a builder it would be nice to see like people kind of drifting towards like a Tac driven product building process to a more product driven one which I mean is like again back to the point of having stronger narratives so what you're trying to build is that like let's say account abstraction as an example like we're not Building Products solely for account abstraction but for the merits of it like like a smart contract based account and then being able to do like automations maybe like for example like setting limit for your trading amounts and then without C phrases so I think these kind of like Technical Innovations allow us to have stronger narratives but at the end it's like how do we make use of these things and build products people love I think people really need to take a hot lesson on that not just like doing incentives anymore Maybe like trying to optimize a yield but it's like how do we actually have more use cases for users we're past the parabolic move of adoption I think it's in the two digits right now of how many people in the US hold crypto not have heard of crypto but actually hold crypto so we won't see you know a new Renaissance a new wave of adoption I think that we're like to make a parallel with the tech bubble we're right past the tech bubble in which companies like Amazon or Google they just stayed there and it was a very slow grind for the next 20 years and we're probably exactly at that point in which for the next 20 years it's going to be a very slow grind for defi but it's going to be there and uh legislation and regulation will adapt to that and will you know push uh crypto forward okay thank you all for the interesting insights and your perspectives I think that based on the what was said on the panel we can be really optimistic about the the def future uh so yeah thank you thank you for the our amazing panelists big round of applause for them [Music] oh