Evolving the ZK Stack in full alignment with Web3 Ethos

foreign [Applause] [Music] and also just wanted to say that we we encourage collaboration and I'm happy that Barry actually mentioned that between the ckvm roll-ups and now we leave Brendan and vitalik in this panel we bring in Hudson who's going to moderate the next panel your I I just wanted to give a a little parenthesis here that I wanted to thank the the Auditors that were in the previous panel and to also remind people that we have already published all the the audit results and we can we have them available in our repository so encouraging people to come and take a look at those uh audit results and this panel I think it's uh probably one of my favorite ones we're talking about evolving the CK stack but more on the ethos side the web 3 and and here I wish I could be part of this panel open source development decentralization all the stuff that we love and we keep here so Hudson I leave you with your panel thank you so much yes uh so hi everyone I'm Hudson um I work at polygon labs and generally I'm an ethereum rascal on Twitter uh today we have a great set of panelists um so many of them have already been introduced but I'll go through the people who haven't been introduced so the hollow we know that guy metallic has stopped working on his masternode to sneak into this call I will accept them uh we got David uh what's uh what's your story it's like a sentence or two well I'm one of the co-founders of polygons KVM and I am basically leading the project and product side for a long time so super excited about this launch absolutely awesome yeah hi uh I'm a lead of the polygon Milan project which is uh you know another ZK pops project with polygon wonderful Anna Anthony okay last but not least my name is Anthony I am also one of the co-founders of Oliver and in my case I'm more focused on the operations and and then it is heightened gotcha gotcha all right this could be a really good panel because I looked over the questions and I made tweaks to make this more interesting a little bit so uh let's get started with the first one so Mahalo earlier this year the polygon teams got together to align on a common product Vision uh that was just you know I saw the post on Twitter where it showed everybody sitting at a table uh would you like to share the vision of us with the the polygon ZK vision and uh where we are in the journey and where we're striving to go especially for the fact that you know when I talk to people about polygons sometimes they're like yeah polygons that thing with all the chains so let us know what's going on yeah thanks a lot cuts on it's a great one and very important one of course uh so when we announced our strong commitment to strategic bet if you will on ZK roughly a year and a half ago uh we we were very much aware of of uh the fact that this is a very not number one this is very early stage of this industry and number two we're trying to build something which is highly complex which is never built before and we didn't want to be opinionated uh from the beginning hence why we joined hints with all these great people and this is held until this very day free formal independent teams falling on zero polygon Hermes and polygon mind and Minden working under this wider polygon umbrella if you build we have never regretted this Choice actually the opposite like the the plurality differences in ideas in approaches in Technologies Primitives that these teams have been using and then have expertise in he has significantly significant can click contributed to the the the this Milestone that we are shifting today and it made polygons EK VM much more performant and enabled us to shift it years basically before it people expect it so this approach uh he has one negative side probably is that some people are confused in The Wider Community right like why does polyone has these three approaches what's going on here but realistically and practically this is one very strong very coherent team with just different expertises and different different uh approaches but the team she has been working very very strong uh together and it has been a pleasure really uh participating in the process that being said that the the vision of of polymer when it comes to ZK uh is to establish this infinitely scalable secure computational layer built on top of ethereum so there will be a multitude of chains there will be even application specific chains like supernets that are part of our product suit if you will uh um so uh the thing is this all chains are should be observed one day and should be uh tightly coupled seamlessly interconnected to form one single infinitely scalable secure computation layer on top of polygon and that is our region that CK and we're I think progressing pretty well uh on that part now we already delivered basically polymer ckvm we are working on other interesting Technologies to expand ethereum Beyond just uh scalability and we actually have the first formal uh uh uh proposal or implementation to interconnect all these changes that's something that we call the lxly bridge that should actually enable exactly what I mentioned turning These Chains into one single execution layer uh uh on top of ethereum so yeah hopefully this is skill absolutely great answer um so David uh this one is about open source so open source has always been a priority at polygon I've seen that the last few years has been an advisor and now an employee uh so um wouldn't you all share this EK EDM uh repos last July at HCC how is that an important step and where are we today with open source and just add a little bit of spiciness what's been the hardest part of that because I swear every time I get into a discussion about open source licenses there's like 30 to choose from so basically where have we been where are we now and uh why did we choose this kind what is it hard yeah yeah thanks well yes it's a very hot topic to be honest because uh that's you know this kind of tension between uh making this as a contribution and becoming uh you know some some project that's uh creating value for the whole community in fact ourselves as a project we have been benefiting a lot from other team cell Innovation and continue equations so we feel it's fair for us also to to provide this to the community in fact the discussion about licensing is the second topic which is uh doing this permissive license or video GPL because in the end we want to make sure that all these effort we did is useful for everyone we can just provide this source code as you know something where a community can just innovate iterate develop and we will be very happy if the Innovations of other teams will be also available for for the future and for other contributions on other projects so for us it's uh the decision on license was to just provide the GPL as the the program JBL uh let's say the main components of the ckvm you will find them in the repositors today with a fellow GPL versus version 3 but there are other tooling like the all the explain these tools to create this Harry metization the pill all these languages are and an apprentices license so anyone can just you know use these tools to build anything with a different monocomic manual license and to the application they prefer more convenient even if it's for private uses so we want to uh you know do this contribution this is uh we feel very very proud and very happy to to finally finalize the project but the second one is to you know do this openness of the contribution we did so far and we'll continue working like that because as Jeffrey was saying this is only the beginning of the project so we'll continue in in the open and in this uh open source license contribution foreign Yeah well yeah I do this every time I do a presentation okay anyways uh thank you for that and uh hello vitalik the next question is to you um so like you mentioned earlier about stage one of kind of a roll-up strategy in your brain and uh to progressively kind of give up centralization control other mechanisms that might you know stop the progression of a roll-up from being as powerful as it could be in the hands of the users so is there anything that like a lot of the ecosystem is minimizing or overlooking when it comes to this process the transparency involved any hot takes that like everyone's gonna disagree with you on on how to do it um I mean I feel like everyone agrees in theory the bigger bottleneck is like in practice right like it feels to me like that everyone is on board with the idea that like well you know of course Roll-Ups should uh ultimately Asia and minnow have proof systems that have teeth then be secured by them and move away from uh they're relying on multi-six and all of this stuff but like in practice there are just our a lot of uh projects that claim to be very close to that but are actually much further away from that and some like there's different like degrees of I guess egregiousness of uh this sort of thing and there's that there's different degrees of like well-intentioned this versus um you know like actually never having the intention of decentralizing at all and me and I think these yeah the bigger thing is to kind of uh just that like standardized and sort of like lay down The rules a bit so that some uh projects don't really have as much of an opportunity to kind of Wiggle out and try to claim that they're like you know basically decentralized when they're actually not and that also make sure that you know the projects that have done a good job of that are are properly getting credit on that gotcha that makes a lot of sense uh so what you mean is like basically practice what you preach and if you're not doing that there should be pressure applied basically yeah yeah I think that's a good way to summarize like I yeah like I haven't really seen big divergences and uh what people preach I'm uh I'm only seeing the verses this and a lot of people practice gotcha interesting uh thank you for that uh all right so Brendan and bobbin uh y'all are both gonna take this uh we'll go with Brendan first and then bobbin uh can also add their thoughts or other takes uh so as we celebrate the launch of the ZK EDM on on polygon uh the polygon ZK team is uh asserting leadership in the space and with their open source ideals and uh you know safe execution how are your respective projects within polygon positioning for this and how are they embracing open source uh like and the ideal vision of decentralization overall the ecosystem where are we going uh yeah sure I I can start um so so my I work on the Zero team uh our we sort of have a dual mandate which is to um work on proof system or a date so we built placing two and Starkey um and Incorporated a lot of those uh optimizations and advancements in the ckvm um and then we're also working on ckvm stuff that we can maybe talk about in more detail in a couple weeks but um I think for us uh open source and decentralization is really important I I think that like one of the most rewarding things that we can uh contribute to the ethereum community to the crypto Community is uh or you know the concept of public goods that are um freely and you know like permissionlessly usable uh by everyone and so for us like it was really important to release our proving system optimizations under a really permissive license um and so I think that those decisions like can vary depending on whether uh we're talking about um you know like a a full productionized system like a ZK VM versus sort of like an underlying uh proving system library but um I mean for us like decentralization open source occur like both core values and um super important oh yeah bobbid yeah I would basically Echo the same thing I'm like a very big believer in open source in fact like a polygon project right now is uh you know Andre MIT license like where it was and their major license from day one and that is prime minister of days like different considerations for something that is more than productionized versus something that is being a bit more experimental uh and uh but I do think there is a great benefit like if you open it up to the community you get a lot of feedback you get people like looking through that code base and all that stuff so it's uh would like it's good on both ends in my opinion you uh let people use it but you also get benefit of people using it and finding bugs and fixing and you know contributing back to you so like uh I think like you know for me personally like working on their Mighty lessons like that's what I've been doing for the last I guess three years I don't think I almost anything that I'm or any other license um and in terms of like maiden specifically so as I mentioned it's another CK project picking uh the way we're thinking about is that uh one one of the nice things about L2 is that this is where you can innovate and we're trying to explore other desired approaches to the space I think thinking game is a super important and like The crucial piece to have but we also will explore other you know State models that maybe better support privacy better support local crew generation and things like that so that is what uh we're exploring with my displayed awesome awesome uh great answer um I would also say like with this push for open source I might get to this a little later with people if we have extra time does the thought of collaboration comes to mind which is kind of the antithetical thought to how l2s are working nowadays but before we get into that I want to make sure that uh I get Anthony here because he there's a question on polygon ID a lot of people don't know about polygon ID I feel like just because it's been being worked on and a lot of the other you know there's like a ton of different ideas on ID so um what do you think about how polygon ID upholds the web3 ethos and the self-sovereignty ethos that a lot of the web Theory and ethereum projects share and um can you add more details on how this being is how this is being achieved uh in light of you know the work that you've done with polygon ID and I guess like a two sentence intro to polygon I do would be nice too okay thanks Hudson yes I mean Jordan myself we started our project with what was we we item three and then at the moment we saw that the north vehicle Vault we needed plus K and he's when when Jordan started without on Hermes and how to scale on top of the material then yes for us as we have seen in in Congress where where there is a well some problems with democracy called how important is to help self-solven identity and the ownership of your data and the type that that nobody can censure you and and you can be always on on this website and managing your keys then in our case what now today is the day of ckdm but would have a lot of hopes on polygon ID that's always next big project and we are we are very focused and we have a lot of hopes on that and now the idea is that it should be the the entry door would say to your event if you know that through that you can manage all your keys and when you are able to access any kind of tab or any kind of some any service that that you require but always ensuring this this are able to provide awesome thank you I I was gonna add or another question on that so is there plans or current designs for like a mobile interface or something that just really kills it on the user experience because that's like the number one thing I hear about when it comes to a lot of these like ID Solutions all in one wallets like things like that so there's already a fragmented ecosystem what is polygon ID going to do to make it very accessible to users and non-fragments it yeah clear I think you're totally right and and the polymer edit team is working very hard on the Shadows let's say in a rogue mode then uh now in July we will see a lot of a lot of new features and then also apparent of the year we should almost have the full start core or or the major part of the the new uh of the new improvements and yes this mobile aspect is something that we are working on and yes the idea is that in in the next month it should be announced awesome that's great to hear I'm definitely looking forward to it um Sovereign analy prepared questions so what I'm going to do is this we're all going to take some time uh to do some closing thoughts you can spin a couple minutes it could be whatever you want I'm not here to restrict you this is a free space uh so we'll go ahead and start with uh you know let's start with David well I have open floats but I would like to see that this solution of ckvm becomes you know the this the first solution for developers because they understand what's behind these uh trust model that the Italy was referring to know is in the end we were you know in targeting projects to extend the horizontal decision the security of ethereum uh it was not about centralizing again in Layer Two it needs to be clear path to our decentralization needs to be a clear strategy but we need to be transparent and verifiable is what we are trying to do with our modern not only open sourcing but also being transported in this all these aspects so users developers understand and and know what's uh what's the plan in our site what's the kind of network they are just betting on it's not only about equivalence or features or these kind of things about uh for me respecting the ethos of web3 in terms of decentralization and class model so next thing we will do is enable this Force transaction this Force watch because I at initially we have a single sequencer uh but surely after that we will have this uh Force batches then we will Target decentralization of proof generation and that will Target the synthesis of sequencing uh why we address this Improvement in security this bug bounties this maturity we want to we want to achieve but from the Inception we have these protocols and this ATS in mind so we are making technical decisions that enable us to decentralize and meet them awesome great great thoughts I'll go ahead and give my like 30 seconds of things I think that the tech stuff at polygon is amazing uh one thing that I personally want to kind of get out uh as a message this year and why one of the reasons why I joined polygon Labs is that you know a lot of the stuff we're building in L2 scalability privacy Stuff Etc is not a Sierra sum game as the founders of polygon said from the first week it launched there is no Silver Bullet to scaling and I think the future holds that there will be a lot of different solutions so a lot of the you know things we've seen both from polygon and other teams that kind of go back and forth with friendly debates and then getting more heated debates I think a lot of that's going to change this year so the polygon besides getting known for the most deepest most interesting and most well-built tech also has kind of a oh they're the nice ones they come in and help with you know another chain is having problems or you know going and being on stage with other chains and being more collaborative and other ways on panels maybe sharing research designs uh either way how it ends up does it really matter just that there isn't a new Vibe this year 2023 is like a new polygon Vibe and I really believe in that um next up we're going to have Antony well in my case I don't want also to repeat what what David was saying no but I remember that when Jordy came to us and one of why I left my previous work and I decided to join hitting his first idea also to to help getting banned you know in that case and how we could create a better world with the centralization being sent on Central Services does it stand all this kind of quality so then I feel that this is another step in that direction okay we are not yet there obviously I'm not really so late and there is a long journey it's still bad but today we we are closing a cycle of three years almost when when everything started when we already came up with the first really an idea and and I'm really proud of of of what we have done knowing that it's we are not yet at the end of okay not then for me today's exciting is a day to enjoy and and yes it's it's when they were writing where when I stepped closer to this to this idea that with having a better world governmental Society uh I think we what I think we are in the right direction excellent words uh bobbin yeah I would say um I actually like your idea absent about like uh uh this uh uh because we're in this web three space like we're all in this together we need to collaborate with each other this is like an I think we we want to lead uh by example in this as much as possible and where we are uh you know collaborating like how Tech can be used in other places and things like that I think uh all of the web three space benefits from it and in my mind like this is a very important thing to achieve on strike forward so like this is like we want to build this uh and scale and provide privacy and all of that stuff but we also want to presumed in web three episodes like collaboration and frugality and all that stuff so like this is for me this is like a very important thing and I hope we can achieve it awesome uh vitalik what about you no I mean I'm just like happy to see as he gay VMS becoming real you know like I'm happy to see yeah like ethereum the way or two scaling becoming like fully real and not just something that's kind of theoretical and there's these back doors that you're not supposed to talk about uh but so you know it's uh it's a it's a big Improvement and uh I think uh over the next six to 12 months um you know we're probably going to see yet even more big improvements on the horizon as uh both other leaders start uh step up and get to uh stage one and that you know polygon Zone implementation continues to improve over time and at the same time we get that Eid 4844 greatly increasing the amounts of data space on chain and uh Roll-Ups hopefully yeah moving quickly to take advantage of that um so I'm you know excited to see all of those all of those things happen and excited to like really get to the points where we can start to call a scaling assault problem for ethereum wonderful uh Brendan uh yeah I I don't have too much that I I would just say that the thing that I'm really struck by right now is just how far we've come and like metallic was saying like this was all theoretical like three years ago no one thought that this would be possible and uh you know two years ago it was the narrative was like oh like we'll never have General computations EK Roll-Ups and then it was oh like maybe we could get to evm compatibility but like never evm equivalence um and it's funny because when we joined polygon and and we we talked with Jordy about building an evm equivalent ckvm we were sort of like well like you know good luck with that like I mean we're not so sure um and so I I would just say like full credit to to Jordy and the team this is like an amazing astonishing accomplishment um and yeah I think it just like opens up this huge space of possibility for what we can do in crypto and I think the next year is going to be like incredibly exciting completely agree and last but not least Mahalo I think we got like exactly a minute and a half left go go for it thank you Hudson so much I will abuse the opportunity to say two things instead of one number one AI completely want to Echo what you just said in that idea for polygon 2023 which is more open more helpful towards even other projects including competitors because as we all said we're in this all in this together uh um we have been shuts down building and really passionate about what we do and we tend sometimes to you know be a little bit self-focused or a little bit closer than we should be right but that's only because your heads down building and sometimes maybe we get even a little bit defensive maybe even on Twitter or whatever because when you're passionate and you're really trying to do something the right way and then there are some doubts about that then you tend to get sometimes a little bit defensive but we should completely hopefully change that in this year and really full fully promote this ethos of collaboration and openness and being supported to to other projects uh um as much as possible as well that's one thing and the second thing I would just like to zoom uh out just for a second then maybe revisit why are we doing all this is just a bunch of nerds you know just trying to see some cool Tech and why are we doing all this and just to to Anthony's point that he mentioned um for and for me personally uh uh this incredible idea of establishing This Global Network of value is is absolutely mind-blowing so with with the internet we have been able in these past decades to establish this Global Network of information and democratize access to information right the knowledge so uh 20 years ago it was impossible to imagine that today uh anyone with the mobile phone and internet access can attend an MIT course learn to code you know improve themselves and all of that but many of these people don't set the opportunity to to monetize now that legend or those skills or their talents and that's why we need this Global Network of value basically we need this Global permissionless uh um economy that we're trying to build and this human according nation and it I'm sure it can I strongly believe is all the people here that it can transform really trust our society in very profound uh uh and positive ways so I'm very very happy that today we share just one step closer to that that grand idea so yeah that's excellent words so thank you so much we are right on time uh so I'm gonna see if Grace wanted to come back in for anything closing or if we just say so long oh you're muted Grace do the same thing yes so excited I forget to mute so uh thank you so much this panel was exactly what I expected I am so happy that we have emphasizes the importance of the ethos that we live by in web 3 and more importantly how we do how do we embrace them in polygon so thank you so much for sharing that