Adapting to Market Shifts: Digital Asset Fund Allocation, Then and Now | EBC10

[Music] all right well welcome guys I guess good afternoon at this point um and big shout out to the uh Hive mining we have a Canadian company few and fire Canadians that are out here so big shout out there uh today we're I get the pleasure with these four gentlemen of uh moderating the panel on digital asset fund allocation so uh an exciting subject for some very boring for others but we're going to make it more exciting uh so maybe just in uh in terms of a bit of an introduction here for everyone my name is Josh bbar one of the manag partners of bellock trading we're a market maker in a quantitative trading firm uh posted beside me starting with Mike I'll let you guys do a brief introduction yourself good afternoon I'm the CEO of Alo Quant we're a large um Quant trading firm globally based also Canadian but live in Dubai good afternoon everyone I'm a so I actually wear two hats so the first hat I wear is the very boring hat of being an allocator for a multif family office where I oversee our alternative assets and the very cool hat when it IT faces the other way is when I'm a portfolio manager for a blockchain fund where we are fun fund investors and maybe in the future in some of the panelists here today hi good afternoon U my name is nithan Sero the CEO of onchain index uh we are a financial platform uh for allocators uh to get access to crypto Assets in a safe compliant and secure Manner and we're based out of San Francisco hi everyone pleasure to be here my name is zgi I'm the founder of uh re7 capital and uh re is a defi hedge fund we provide liquidity on chain invest in tokens and run a bunch of Def infrastructure thanks gentlemen and uh maybe just to set the scene so in terms of the topics or what we really want to cover and talk about um is a lot of what's happened in terms of allocators where are people allocating what strategies are they allocating to um and how has this changed obviously the market substantially moved since a pre FX and I guess as uh a having an asset manager ourselves and working asset manager for the last 10 years uh definitely around the FTX scenario would be a significant Milestone and things have changed so just in terms of set the scene I think maybe to kick off to give it a state of affairs uh maybe i' look over look over to yourself on this to all of you guys starting with Fi um is just ignoring size generally speaking what strategies people allocating to uh where is this we know sometimes this is in Venture hedge fund uh so who is allocating first off and then also what are they allocating into I'll start with you have Genny and go to you n thanks George yeah we we speak to a lot of allocators whether these are institutions family offices or what have you and there been an interesting shift since the market crashed a couple of years ago where with a lot of air coming from you know public markets and private markets there is much less appetite for people to do Venture and private uh from at least nonprofessional allocators because they haven't seen any cash repayments they haven't seen any DPI and therefore they're starting to realize that crypto is finally mature enough where you can run uh a lot of liquid strategies Venture is not the only way to go there are people whose job is and will always be allocating to venture funds and they will continue to do so but when it comes to liquid people are realizing that liquid markets usually outperform private markets especially in crypto they also realize that at least some people do that now might be the right time within the crypto cycle to be going long and then beyond that um we don't do any trading on centralized exchanges there are a lot of very serious and smart people who who do it very very well uh we've always been focused on Defi and earning yield from within Defi and it's it's been a pretty interesting Journey because when we set it up almost four years ago no one really understood what that is and how it worked and now with you know many years of track record you can see that it's a nice kind of addition to a portfolio of liquid trading strategies with very kind of orthogonal risk But ultimately I think there's still a lot more education that needs to be done and a lot of people still don't understand the nuances and the differences of different crypto strategies thanks then where we see a lot of uh traction is uh in technology Executives uh that want uh a different allocation and exposure to equities and bonds so maybe a 1 to 3% on technology executive allocation and then with the interest rate Rising we see a lot of commercial real estate family officers liquidating their positions and those ticket sizes could be 100 million 200 million but they still want to be in alternate asset classes so what I'm seeing is too technology Executives and Real Estate Investors that are liquidating their current positions due to high interest rates so lower interest rates I see uh Adrien yourself as uh the bold man to come up and say you work as a family office allocator I think I saw 10 different sales guys in the background stand up including myself yeah I should have probably kept that to myself but another piece of information I I want to share sh with you is I think it's very geographical uh decided where we can see allocators come into the crypto space I see from a northern European standpoint we haven't seen any of the institutions come into this space yet uh I think in this market uh now that we have the black rocks and the blackstones and the Goldman coming out and speaking about blockchain and crypto as an asset class I think the The Narrative is is Shifting for a lot of ass managers over the world I think we're changing in from a career risk of putting blockchain into your portfolios to a career risk of not putting blockchain in crypto into your portfolios uh and I think that will we'll see that playing out through this cycle over the next coming years Mike do you want to comment sure so um we allocate to 20 plus Cal managers all Quant funds Central book multi manag model things are developing but it's still very capacity constrained and so I think um we're not where traditional finances but we are developing but our goal is to find the best Alpha teams and we search wide for that um I would say that in order to manage the risk you have to still be very active whether it be smas or um focusing on sort of finding um folks that have good track records do you think then uh Mike in terms of what would be the main catalyst like what really has to happen then for even more Capital to show up into the system you're obviously allocating to a lot of underline strategies um if that's going to be the case I'm sure your top fund wants to grow so what's going to be the main catalyst here that more people want to show up to the party I think it's a multifaceted answer um there's an element of The Regulators need to become comfortable and really the us we need to see what happens in election so if uh if Trump gets in as a game changer if Harris comes in what does that mean once we get sort of more regulatory Clarity that der risks some of the major allocators that traditionally be allocate so I think the um the space itself is evolving we're getting more institutional but we got a ways to go and the next round of capital will either be a trickle or there'll be an avalanche coming in the next sort of 3 to six months maybe n did you want to make a comment on that just from a different perspective of you're running a wealth platform did uh you want to make a few comments so you think that might change yeah sure I think uh the validation of the ETFs uh Bitcoin and E uh is a good starting point um so that's on the regulation side but at the same time more regulation in the US I so I agree with Mike has to come about but then on the technology side uh whether it's tokenization whether it's wallet infrastructure um and also multiactor Authentication so both are going in micro increments not in large increments as we see it but it's all going in the positive direction so if we're waiting still to see a lot more capital I think everyone would be happy with that uh more capital in the ecosystem uh of gu if you take stock then of where we are currently is this just the case as a manager is everybody just fighting over the same piece of pie is the P not growing is it a a pure Zero Sum scenario or is there still more Capital showing up we just just don't see it as frequently I think you know there might be a little bit of competition here and there but the world is so big and you know the the funds that we you know most of us run on as liquid funds within the space they're very very small comparing to what exists in the traditional world so when you're aiming to raise you know let's say 100 million right that's at global scale that's basically nothing you just need to get like two people to say yes and you're done um so we haven't really seen much competition the only way where you do get that is when you're talking to a fund of funds right so if someone is running a fund of funds their job is to allocate let's say 10 funds then obviously you want to be one out of those 10 and we like we recently got an allocation from a fund of funds and they told us that uh they interviewed no they looked at 700 funds they interviewed I know 50 and they gave money to seven right so there is competition within that but beyond that there is still a big big world the capital is coming is just coming you know slowly and in very humble increments but my prediction would be that um a lot of this capital is also very uh it chases performance so these people we had some investors who you know when FTX happened everyone was get very scared um they left then they saw the market do well they came back so they always it's very natural a lot of people leave at the bottom come back at the top so we're going to see a lot of that and I think the real challenge will be having the discipline to say no when uh you're getting bombarded with inflows at the top of the market the uh do you think of Guinea then is is there a certain point when uh that becomes very apparent to say hey okay like Bitcoin hits 100,000 whatever that that Milestone is is there a certain point where you think that as an FTX as a bit of a a downfall broadly for allocators or and broadly for the amount of capital coming in the system is there a a a milestone you're watching or you guys are looking for is it ethereum 10,000 is it Bitcoin 100,000 is is there well so given we're on liquid strategies our time Horizons are not five or 10 years like for some other people on the panel uh our time Horizon is probably a couple of years and within that you need to take a view of where you are in the crypto cycle and whether you believe the crypto Cycles will continue to exist or whether they stop right so that's the first structural decision you have to make as a manager and then you know the the market op is never it's only obvious in highsight in rearview mirror but uh history always Rhymes and there is a myriad of different signals which don't you can never know whether you're at the top or not but you know if you're closer to the top of closer to the bottom you know next time if this conference next time is being held at the Palance and everyone has a personal driver with a Lamborghini probably it's a good time to start saying no just like when your taxi driver is trading Bitcoin that's what that's what I know I'm like okay well we see some issues maybe uh Adrian do you want to comment on that from the allocator perspective I think I think um I think since 2021 when we had the previous top we we've seen the market kind of slowdown for two reasons the VC money where the predominantly amount of money is actually allocated within our space they haven't really had that much DPI and it's also because of the macro picture where we've had very very low m&a activity and we have seen very very few IPOs over the last few years especially in Tech um so before allocators such as ourself get any DPI backed from such a new and nent asset class I think it'll be tough for us to argue that the amount of capital flow from the previous allocators will flow back into crypto or in blockchain where I see promising signs is from new entrance into the space and it's actually more so the larger players within the global finan SC that are now thinking about how to allocate to blockchain or crypto um and and I hope that uh they will start with a few basis points because 50 basis F uh 50 basis points from some of these largest institutions will be very very significant for our industry yeah one ticket of 100 million uh would make my job a lot easier too uh maybe to switch topics a bit uh focus more on product selection so more of you know what people are actually investing in as opposed to just the money flow maybe where you m is uh I guess from alpha versus beta products you guys see a lot of different managers a lot of underlying strategies um is it hedge hedge funds BC uh we know there's substantially more Capital flows into Venture versus liquid strategies from the the liquid strategy side why I guess why does it seemingly easier to allocate directly into a lot of these Venture products um as opposed to hedge funds and then when are they going to catch up and I guess I bucket that as a the hedge fund strategy rather than the rapper yeah I think the um the Venture is easy for people to get comfortable with and um traditionally it's the first entry point with liquid trading there's a lot of um infrastructure you need to build a lot of um compliance um if you're going to do it properly so we trade mid frequency which basically means nonh high frequency but it's intraday we trade on most of the major exchanges Perpetual swap spot and um we have 45 people internally I mentioned 20 plus managing externally so for us to manage that and we have to create a central trading desk have um lots of technologists risk management compliance and so it's a it's a very involved business to run um I think the pros of actually being a liquid fund is that you can um capture the moves whether it be up or down you're also able to um sort of respond in a in a quicker fashion to your LPS and so you know I think uh crypto Venture is more attractive than traditional Ventures 8 years crypto Venture is a little bit less with a liquid fund you have your know quarter quarterly Redemption cycles and so if you can find a strategy that you like is actually a very interesting part of your portfolio do you think then Mike uh would there be when you guys are looking specifically I guess to talk on that is when you're specifically looking at a lot of the underlying managers uh are you finding that the more niche capacity constrained uh are way more in demand they're filling up far faster that's a lot easier or is it still the larger strategies uh in hedge fund and liquid strategy specifically is still the larger that are attracting the line share Capital that's a good good question so we've actually seen in the last six months a lot of new money coming into the space there's a lot of large institutional players that are crypto native but have have um built um War chests they're allocating to this there is a capacity constraint so if if you look at Bitcoin there's a huge market value but the rest of the ecosystem the coin market caps is limited and so if you look at the the the nature of Quant trading you can sort of look at it in you know five or six different strategies and each one has capacity constraint and so um what we look to do is find the best managers optimize our allocation to that capacity and then create a mosaic of um different Alpha signals but it's not like traditional Finance where you can go in find a Quant fund to allocate a billion dollars that doesn't exist yet it's still we're still nent if you will so still definitely some of the smaller managers have been uh the more attractive maybe to Adrien did you want to add a bit on that uh from your perspective as like you're you're allocating a lot into especially Venture products or direct um do you maybe make a comment why you think um the liquid side just is not yet necessarily caught up in comparison uh and then as well if you want to take a meeting with myself and have Genny afterwards uh we're very open yeah I'll be happy to speak with you guys after the after the conference uh well you'll have to convince me after this panel I guess but uh so VC has been an easier Target for allocators because of the equity component within it from an allocation and from an LP perspective it's just a lot lot easier to explain why I'm investing in something if it has an equity component and we're still there where crypto has a narrative that it's very easy for allocators of big institutions to understand and before we get there I think we'll still have this I think you said it was 1 to 15 or someone else on the panel set it was one one to 15 where you have hedge funds getting one out of every $15 within this space it's crazy because in the public markets it's it's just not like that um but where I see a big opportunity is in the market is actually within the liquid stuff because the VC Market are fighting for the same um small produ projects all over the world and the largest institutions just simply can allocate $50 million to a preed uh fund because they will be the entire fund and that's just not good enough for them so there is a lot of opportunities within the liquid space especially in my mind uh outside of the top 50 because we are seeing a lot of managers in the liquid space attacking the same 50 tokens the top 50 market caps and I'm I'm wishing and I know a couple and I know a couple of participants in the in the conference today that are targeting these less than top 50 in market cap tokens because there's a lot of very cool projects that has been listed but forgotten about so think about it from this point of view a small cap manager within public equities can over time outperform the big indices and I think the same thing is very true for these markets um going forward in the next cycle because there's a lot of cool projects we can pick up for pennies on the dollar to be frank yeah and that's a fantastic segue into uh talking about some of the outside of the Z 50 uh some of the really interesting liquid opportunities maybe of gu to you is talk just a bit about defi like we know a lot of those projects there a handful that are within the top 50 they are much larger cap uh but it's really hard to ignore that it's grown at an absolutely parabolic rate um and a lot of the times the underlying projects um or underlying we'll call them yield generation ated strategies that are retail oriented uh is really just I guess I frame it as one really large hot ball of money that just keeps chasing around different Pockets um from your perspective how how does it look that uh when you're pitching as a defi oriented strategy if liquid is hard enough defi can be even more difficult um I guess how do you find institutions are looking at that space and then probably the more important part for br the audience is how how do you abstract away some of those complexities to make it a little bit more simple for them to understand because I would say for my experience at least talking to especially endowments and in the pension space they all have interest in learning a lot and they want to hear a lot more about it um but it's just new and a lot of people don't want to admit they don't understand something that's new yeah absolutely so firstly I completely Echo what Ed was saying that it's much much easier for someone to invest into a venture fund and um I found when it comes to allocators there are kind of you know two types of allocators some of them want to make money and some of them want to deploy money it took me a long time to understand the difference but some of these people their job is to deploy into a 10-year strategy which hopefully obus skates away the volatility and the mark to Market and then by the time the strategy actually materializes well they're probably gone and they're in some other firm so Venture does is not necessarily it's not better or worse but it's not safer just because it's not volatile on paper the reality is that it's much more volatile and when it comes to liquid you know I'm yet to meet you know more than a couple of venture funds that have actually outperformed public markets within crypto and want to say Public Adjustment BTC let alone anything that's been performed that's performed better when it comes to us investing in these you know liquid tokens and explaining that to like serious institutions it's actually very straightforward if they're willing to listen because basically any crypto project is simply startup now imagine you know how many startups are in the world a million a billion how many of them would you invest into if their Equity was tradeable on a stock exchange probably very few and you would expect that 99% of them should go out of business because that's the nature of being in a startup world so if you analyze these businesses from that LS then effectively all you're doing is you're becoming a series B series C you're basically growth Equity investor but coming in through a liquid instrument so you apply the same analysis you would to a small midstage company basically small capital a stock and you analyze it like you wouldn't analyze anything else because there is a million products in crypto most of them should have never existed because they make no sense they had no value but there are enough that are investable that are basically profitable businesses with real cash flows with you know stock BuyBacks or token BuyBacks and other catalysts that actually make them work and uh fundamentals do matter in crypto because if you chart you know every investment has one or two key drivers that defines its performance so if you can uh identify that data and draw it out and you do a correlation with actual token usually it's very very strong so the fundamentals do exist it's just that they're so hidden underneath the noise that it's very hard to find them in our portfolio for as an example um it's a portfolio on average like 15 positions so it's very concentrated like very high conviction and 80% of the assets are below 500 million fully diluted valuation and they're not even listed on major exchanges so like that's how deep you have to go to find those businesses but that's the job because if I would be an allocator and I would ask someone well why would I pay 220 if I can buy the ETF and and chill right and this is when I used to work in the hedge fund that's what we were asked you know we can buy the ETF for your sector or your Market you know show us that you can outperform and that's that's the job and it's uncomfortable uh for crypto because you know historically you a lot of venture funds I know have been holding BTC which makes no sense but they charge it to20 and don't give it back to you unless they want to give it back to you and now it's time to go deep and actually generate some Alpha which is which is good because we're going to get more uh differentiation and self- selection great answer I guess the the follow-up question to that is how do you explain meme stocks to them that's actually even simpler um it's a good actually it's a good question you know Jokes Aside um and the reality is that I think there's one you know when I use the metaphor that these tokens are like small cap stocks there is one very important differentiating factor that in the real world if I see a small company that I think is undervalued I can buy up the stock I can vote myself in and maybe force liquidation of the factory you know sell everything down and that's kind of the Arbitrage of how you bring an undervalued asset towards the fair value um good luck trying to do that in crypto buying up tokens and finding those engineers and telling them to sell so you don't have that okay so then where is your return going to come from some of these things pay you dividends or do BuyBacks fine but that's also not really sufficient um and that means you're at the M of capital flows and when Capital flows come in and come out you know you need to take a view as to where the flows are going to go I think it's we're too early to say that you know a Goldman will go and buy some random token that's you know trading on some Dex on salana we're very far away from that it's mainly retail flow and then your job as a manager is to anticipate where that flow is going to go so we kind of call it the the attention economy and what is going to capture the attention of those types of investors and you try to capture that then you try to combine it with more or less some fundamental ends and then like in our portfolio we do a bit of both and historically that's worked pretty well so you do need to be cognizant as to what these memes represent some of them are scams obviously but quite a few of them have um turned into a tradable them theme with clear correlation to very specific Catalyst and you know it's a there is serious flow going through that um which if you treat it unemotionally is just a source of you hopefully generating some pnl detention economy I love it uh maybe to extend a little bit of a different theme on that nitt just from your side um you guys obviously allocate and manage through a bit more of a unique structure um one is I'm I'm sure a lot of the audience from the institutional side very familiar is on smas um smas is very uniquely and popular in crypto but also in private placements uh which is a structure traditional Finance is very used to but is used uh selectively from your perspective uh why do you find this is the case that private placements in the crypto perspective for Asset Management could be a more interesting use case yeah so we ended up with a private placement structure primarily that's what our lawyers told us but after that we realized that it has a lot of benefits uh so the lawyers were correct benefits being they're never correct then you can't as long as they keep me out of jail I'm happy uh but I think it has the customization capability uh from an individual's risk to time Horizon and when they want to get out or get in but not based on emotions the second element is it gives you access to early adopters to something that's very stable so you can customize any strategies from very liquid to long-term holds within the same structure and then finally private placements in traditional Finance have been around to validate Securities to get its snvs so just applying the same trafi compliance structure to something that is in question something that is going under regulations allows to say hey I'm following what traditional Finance follows and I'm applying daily quarterly navs with qualified investors it uh I would say definitely is is absolutely a growing area I know and traditional Finance least in the Canadian side we very frequently love closed end funds in private placements you describe a nice derivative of that to go and flip to the other side of the obviously most familiar and today popular instrument um is maybe pointing over to you Mike is what's uh on the ETF side in terms of fund flows uh terms of product selection what uh the ETF side and specifically I'll thve that as the American ETF side I know they're uh very hesitant to admit the fact that uh both Europe and other jurisdictions have had exchange TR of products but we know that there's been a much larger wave of Interest around there um what impact do you think that necessarily had um Black Rock coming out with these products uh with your conversations with allocators um but also your conversations uh in terms of when you want to be allocating to managers yeah I think it's um it's been very supportive so Black Rock Enter space is um really been a game Cher um we've seen the eth ETF underperform but the Bitcoin ETF is still doing well and I think you know Black Rock follow that up with the tokenized money Market funds and so we're starting to see real institutional use cases you're seeing some large institutions follow suit but really you know having a a um Supernatural you know um major institution enter um crypto is um is given it legitimacy I think in many many people's minds and so it's going to take twice as long as we expect just because of Regulation and things move slow but we are on a path of more development this week we've seen options be uh approved as well so I think the um the positive impact is we're going to see the private banking Community start to offer this and then they're going to say well this is sort of boring we're not making money on this how can we make money how can we offer Structured Products how can we do Alternatives how we how can we actually um create a profitable ecosystem around crypto um so I think the next sort of three 3 to 10 years we will um normalize in terms of what what digital assets can offer do you think then in terms of uh even in your conversations in terms of flows do you think that's more coming from is that financial advisors is that when you say the private banking Community it's obviously their underlying clients uh is that family offices uh is there is there a theme in terms of when those conversations come up who you see they're deriving those mostly towards yeah look so we also have an asset management business I sit on both sides of the camp we we raise as well as deploy the first movers are the family offices and it tends to be the second generation family offices and so let's say that your your mother built a shoe factory and made a billion dollars and you know she's retiring and your your your daughter wants to run that family office she probably doesn't want to run the shoe factory she wants to go invest in Ai and digital assets and so there's a plethora of these types of um bws that are moving into space and want a you know uh 2 to 3% allocation and maybe it's Venture maybe it's liquid I think the private Bankers are are realized that and they're starting to D Market to it and and then I think you you can overlay that with the um the guess the Gen Z community that is trading on Robin Hood in the US and you bit Panda here and really want to get involved and I think it's a it's a that's great I think if your mom had a shoe factory that sold for a billion you might be on a beach having Mojitos so I'm going to assume that's hypothetical uh Adrien maybe really quickly did you want to comment more just from uh your side specifically on the family office hat um I'm assuming that after a lot of news had been made uh and a lot of uh hype has been built around that that your conversations may have been a bit easier um and then maybe with your uh blockchain fund hat on as well have you found raising from Institutional Investor simpler yeah so I just want to nail this point on the head I think if you are first generation or a second generation you are more prone to be sleeping on the the beach than you are allocating to crypto and that's that's just a fact so uh our families we we run around 10 families money in in Denmark um none of them want to allocate to blockchain so it's been our um job as as employees of these families to educate them enough so we can twist their arm to allocate to blockchain because it's it's just a technology that is growing at a rapid pace so within a portfolio context and everyone is is owning up to this point now it it really adds diversification and add adds and it can add some Alpha from a portfolio standpoint so so that is the reason as an allocator and as an employee of these families we are allocating to blockchain um has it been tough to raise money from outside of our families almost impossible um in the nordics um we are very conservative we come from a wealthy part of the of the of the world and I I say this because we're very conservative in where we put our money because we don't need to lose it as a as a region so the institutions that are actually allocating to new technologies they have to have a very huge incentive for them not to go into it or for them to actually go into a space like blockchain and they incentive is not to lose their jobs and I I say this with some cander because the the big Pension funds we have to realize that they're not principles they're employees of everybody else and they simply want to keep their jobs so why should they allocate to a asset CL class that have so much preconc uh risk so now with with with black rock as as you're alluding to this narrative is slowly changing we're changing this narrative around the pr preconc risk about blockchain and and crypto that's very good for our industry because now the employees of these big Pension funds and these big big institution have some risk of not allocating to one of the fastest growing growing Industries and and so it's this risk that we have to be aware of and and really push their buttoms from an allocation and a fundraising side in my opinion so I'm I'm thinking about making a slide of um of of these employees actually having career risk of not investing in our product but it might be a little bit far-fetched and a tough tough point to sell I can't wait for my next allocator meeting it's going to be uh by the way if you do not allocate to us you're going to get fired ex exactly that's my point Sorry n quickly before the last question do you want to go yeah I wanted to say uh something interesting is what we are seeing is that where we are raising capital is people are taking the RIS risk because their family offices are not taking the risk their family offices are not giving them the guidance so they're going out of that framework even for 3% or 5% of their net worth to say hey as long as you can provide me with navs whether it's quarterly weekly daily they don't mind losing that 3% as long as they don't have to have a tax implication upon its upside because it's only a small percentage of that risk they're taking so it's an interesting take which I didn't think about but it's good to hear your the strategies as well we'll uh we'll save taxes for a different panel I think we can spend an entire conference on that uh the last question that uh I'd want to go and ask all of you f g I'll start with you uh just to walk through I think this is a good thing to probably leave the audience with as well is a very common phrase I know we've all heard is the institutions are coming inss are coming uh if you've ever been on crypto Twitter it's pretty impossible to miss um but I guess to be candid it's obvious in in one sense they perhaps haven't um if that's the case like when will this change and uh just to get each of your perspectives that we know the Catalyst we talked on but when will it change is that next year is it six months is it six days so I think it depends on what you mean by institutions are coming right because there are companies like Fidelity offering custody Services there are companies like Black Rock tokenizing their their stuff on chain and many many others so they're using the technology which is actually what you're supposed to be doing with this technology they're just not investing into into what we want them to invest uh which is fine because as long as they're using it they'll be someone else you know that you know someone a startup that provides a service and is investable so I think we're very far away we actually we had some like European and UK Banks invest in our funds but that's definitely an exception and it's because there was probably a specific kind of champion within the firm who is just personally super excited about crypto and he wanted to do something uh beyond that they're being very very tactical you know they're seeding some of the funds they know but they're not really going Beyond because a career risk is something these people worry about very very much to your point too Adrian nitt did you want to make a comment on that yeah I think um uh if you take a long-term Horizon whether it's volatility whether it's regulation you will come out ahead so the question is what's your time Horizon and then Adrian and last but not least Mike luckily I have a 10-year Horizon here so I'm I'm very happy about that but um no I think the institutions to have get his point they are here they're they're using this technology they have the products for it so the real question is I guess when are the capital flows coming to this industry and and and just anecdotally with ibid Blackstone ey shares ETF it took seven weeks for that ETF to reach 10 billion in AUM the last standing Champion was St at Gold ETF in 2004 and it took took over a 100 weeks so we are seeing anecdotal evidence that that institutions or larger checks are coming to the space so I really think about this from a trickle down kind of economy framework where we're seeing a lot of money go into Bitcoin and later it will flow into VC and and and other other tokens that's great and then Mike yeah last but not least yeah I'm going to give a different answer so we're focused on the now so I'm going to invite anybody in the audience that runs a quantitative strategy and you have a track record hit me up on LinkedIn we're interested in meeting you as why I'm here and we want to support the here and now but thank you very much I'll uh I'll take your phone number telegram LinkedIn and your email that'd be great uh awesome well look that's all for today on this guys um I think it's a i wanted to just reach out and say thanks to all the panel I think it's an interesting subject that uh perhaps doesn't get enough air time but uh is the life blood of running all the institutional investors so uh please give a round of applause for all our panelists here thank you thank you so much Michael Adrian nit