Digital Assets Lifecycle: Issuance, Trading, Settlement and Custody | European Blockchain Convention

[Music] thank you thank you very much and it is a great pleasure to be here with you guys and share all the insights that this distinguished panel is going to is going to share with us on the you know the Digital Life assets life cycle the issuance trading settlement and custody so the first thing I want to do is I I want to guys welcome you and if you can give us a sort intro what you do who you are and what do you work for which company you work for so Matias we start with you thanks Mariano so Matias H it's I managing partner with managing partner with Define um working in the blockchain space um since seven years supported in that role over 70 different projects from crypto projects custody of crypto assets like Bitcoin to building Deb Capital markets platforms for banks or our clients are really large Banks Market infrastructure providers asset managers and before that I worked in on classical banking projects in the Capital Market space very good thank you very much Matias Victor hi everyone uh so my name is Victor Busan I'm the CMO of tus um so tus for the one who doesn't know who doesn't know us we are a global fintech specialized in digital asset infrastructure uh we have two main activities so we on the infrastructure we offer the custody and the tokenization building block for banks and we have a second activity so we are also technology provider which is regulated so we operate an organized trading facility which is TDX uh which is a Marketplace to trade also tokiz Securities so infrastructure and financial services that's great thank you very much uh Victor ma for please hi everyone my name is Mana Kosh I'm the head of blockchain strategy at ironlight uh for those of you who don't know uh iron light is a a regulated platform for trading tokenized Securities um in a regulated compliant way we're based in New York Austin and very recently we opened an office in Abu Dhabi wonderful my name um I won't repeat everything that's already mentioned on the slide here I work for the German Stock Exchange which is uh which C is part of I'm responsible for the business development there for the commercialization of our security services if you like so we do issuance trading settlement custody um yeah primarily of these of uh real world Securities we digitize these we tokenize these Securities and this is why I'm sitting here on the panel with the colleagues to talk about exactly these things not about traditional Securities but how traditional Securities are really transitioning into that digital age um be they through digitization or tokenization that's great thank you very much D so guys before we move on to the life cycle and we will cover each of the components right the issuance trading settlement and custody I want to hear from you and you can you guys can sh AIT your vision your vision on blockchain and capital markets how do you see this happening what is your vision what is what is your thoughts right so maybe we start with you Matias yes so we we can look at the market infrastructure we have today so I would characterize it really as a vertical infrastructure with a chain of intermediaries chain of custody it's some sometimes called now if we move to a blockchain based system it shifts it's really I would say paradigm shift to a more horizontal open in infrastructure on that kind of infrastructure really a huge diverse um diverse number of different asset classes can live live from cryptocurrencies to traditional financial instruments to maybe nfts to organized um infrastructure maybe machines for corporate use cases so that's the first difference we have an infrastructure that allows for this that's not possible in the traditional infrastructure and the second um Point really is at least technically these assets are available immediately worldwide and different kinds of services can integrate and interact with these assets so for example think about a stock that's represented on this kind of open infrastructure suddenly this allows for example to be used in a def protocol as collateral or it could be used for an ESG data provider and provide auditable information it could be used for an asset manager to put into a fund and really these Integrations are only possible in this open infrastructure now look maybe um to give a example from a users perspective in the retail space you have your banking app you have your cash account you have your classical Securities and then on the other side there's the wallet world let's say metam mask or so that's the key to the web three now I think these two words will move closer together let's say you could call it the banking wallet where I really have the access to the web free where I have a holistic view over all my different assets and let's say with a swipe of finger I can pledge my Securities and use it for refinancing and get Euro liquidity back and and then I think there is really new user experience streamlined experience that's really only possible um in these kinds of infrastructures that's great Matias thank you very much there in perspectives there Victor from your perspective blockchain and capital Marquez how do you see your vision I will start with a simple Vision um the vision is the following it should be as easy um to buy and sell a private security as you are buying a book on the on Amazon so what's happening today is that when you look at the private Capital Market as opposed to the public listed Capital markets where the company which is where the comp company will be listed the infrastructure is already electronic when you look at the private Capital markets there are still a lot of inefficiencies and it's quite even cake lot of paper some even custodian might still be using fact so there is a lot of effort on digitization those block blockchain based act as a catalyst and a reason to drive change to transform it and to basically becoming digital in an incremental way because it won't happen and we see it all it takes time to adopt to drive change uh but the goal is really to make in the end the private Capital Market as efficient as a public Capital markets by digitizing meaning by tokenizing very very interesting perspectives Victor thank you for sharing and I like very much your I mean the point on efficiencies the opportunities and and the you know the example of Amazon right so I mean think about Amazon for Capital markets right so that's a great great example men from your perspective your vision yeah I think you guys both made great points um in short my vision is to tokenize everything I think that in the long term uh blockchain will be the default way to represent all Securities of any kinds and that's going to lead to an increase in efficiency transparency speed and liquidity and it's going to democratize access uh to traditionally exclusive asset classes like uh real estate or private Equity yeah that's great thank you very much aano you have you're coming clearly from a different perspective right so I'm very keen to hear from you as well what you think um yeah from my perspective being one of the older people probably here at the entire conference when we look back 25 years ago and we we had electronification of the stock exchanges I remember discussions with Floor Traders saying and what does that actually do to me I'll still exchange a a stock a bond with anyone here in the room and that's going to be it it's going to be slightly different the way I do it possibly less paper based but I'm not going to do more business what's in it for me right me as a youngster at the time I could trade a security on the German Stock Exchange once a day during a midday auction in a super opaque sort of process I had no idea what's going to come out at the end I got some shares at some price at someone probably front ran me on and that's it nowadays if we look at our normal stock trading activities and anyone here will be having stocks I hope in some way shape or form you know how it works it's instant it's fast you have high frequency trading you know exactly what the price is you can buy one share you can buy a fraction of a share whatever it is I think this is what we're going to be seeing with this sort of Technology it's not here today I think the panel before has articulated that quite well we're not here yet but I see and I'm not going to use Amazon I'm going to use Spotify I think we're going to see a spotif foration of our industry where instantaneous creation distribution modification information on assets any sort of assets stock or other will be available and possible for anyone us here in the in the room and I think that's that's not my vision I think that's a real scenario for our industry that's great thank you so much I mean guys we're hearing about Amazon as a Spotify Capital markets right but the reality is that you guys are highlighting a number of challenges that today Capital markets are facing we are all facing transparency you know the distribution Etc right so so that's that is great way to start soless let's now double click on our life cycle right what do we see today on digital assets and the life cycle so we're going to start with H with isans so maybe Victor I'm going to I'm going to call you and you guys share your thoughts but you Victor you have a lot of experience there so what do you think so I will start it will I will take the example of several um Persona or type of Target segment so issuers you will have you can have Banks you can have custodian you can have maybe asset managers you can have uh for example and I'm going to start with a simple example because it's it might be the most tangible for the audience withme so I'm a founder of a startup why should I tokenize or why should I isue basically digital token the from a Founder Journey you have points in your journey where you say okay maybe I have to fund raise to raise money so first use case is about primary Market issuance I can fund raise using tokenization amongst and with my community so basically I have a community of users and basically I will div diversify my shareholder basis by issuing tokens that would be use case number one number two will be secondary Market I want to unlock liquidity because basically maybe it's successful I have a high market cap and I want to give value to my shares so I will actually sell on the secondary marketpl and as basically it was mentioned with a 24-hour 7 trading maybe or maybe it would be different kind of trading schemes but uh that's another re reason to issue the secondary Market otherwise is also simplify the shareholder registry management because it takes time you can just transfer the ownership by the token so you have all those reasons that makes it a good reason for issuing then for banks it's same same kind of process what are the the reason to do that there will be it's again cost efficiency first and foremost so you need to perform tokenization at scale and issuance at scale um after we will get to challenges a bit later but yeah th those are several Dimensions to keep in mind but I think it's very important to really focus on the car business and do it with a good reason once you issue those tokens that's great great insights thank you very much Victor Matias from your perspective insights on the ISU part of the life cycle right yeah I I I think we should be clear about what I think we should be clear about what's actually happening currently in Europe and we see in different jurisdictions um that it becomes possible to issue digital Securities in decentralized crypto registers actually and um in Germany we have that kind of law since 2021 in Italy we see since 2023 these kinds of um represent ations are actually legally possible and what it really enables is a PE to peer-to-peer transfer of Securities on chain between participants of these registers so that plays also into what I think is um my vision of of DLT that kind of representation allows then the integration of these Securities in these different use cases and and the motivation really I think depends on you know your role in the financial services industry let's say an asset manager for example they are now thinking about issuing fund units on chain um to um elaborate or to tap into new client groups New distribution channels direct distribution channels maybe Market infrastructure providers they want to offer a decentralized um alternative um a bank might want to um um enhance their origination business with these kinds of offerings um yeah maybe great thank you just add one I think when we look at the life cycle of a of a security issuance is probably the easiest one the entire conference is about tokenization which is basically issuance on chain so I think we're well beyond that space we've issued 200,000 of those 10 billion worth of securities digitized it's all it's all there I think everyone here and many in the audience will will share that view I think the the question is the um the question that we need to ask ourselves or or the clients is then to what end are you using the technology and issuing security Zone chain and there are certain aspect that are relevant for the issuer or his agent himself or herself right it is speed of issuance speed of creation of liquidity transparency reduction of risk Windows all of these things I think the bigger value will arise on on the investor side and has to still arise on the investor side because post issuance you created a token which represents absolutely not much on chain because you can't mobilize it sufficiently at least in the industry I work in right so this is for financial institutions fincial intermediaries not retail investors so for that audience issuing a bond on chain worth 100 million EUR and buying that Bond locks up Capital locks up uh balance sheet and Beyond that it doesn't do much for you yet okay and this is what we need to discuss as a Next Step you know life cycle processing and reuse mobilization these sorts of things that's great than thank you very much still I'm very interesting the investor impact or the investor benefits right so that's that's quite interesting all right guys I want to hear from you as well the next next stage on the life cycle which is the trading activity right so trading platforms Etc you I'm lucky to have this uh great experience from many of you guys so maybe we start start with you Victor and tell us tell us about how do you see emerging Trends and trading Etc I think that when it comes to trading I'm going to give some concrete examples because uh we are actually really tokenizing some either fund so in terms of asset class you will have Equity you will have depth you will have funds you will have Structured Products uh and then usually real estate will simply be a variation because it would be an SPV Incorporated with different vehicle and maybe it will be mostly debth or Equity um the first question that usually people ask is first on the what kind of trading scheme or liquidity scheme are you looking for auction auction based trading or continuous trading what does it mean auction based would be like liquidity events uh probably for liquid asset class like this private Equity or private depth it's not worth having 24hour 7 trading maybe just a auction based like every on a monthly basis on a quarterly on a yearly basis that could be something relevant to look at uh for funds can be different so every shuer will have different need um the second usually Dimension that we look at is also it's important to find a high quality issuer because from the high quality issuer so it's about building the supply and demand or the buying and the selling of the order book and what's important in the end is to find really instruments that will be reassuring for the investors especially as we are building the market so what takes time especially for trading is really to Source those right deals so that you don't um you don't hurt the potential Trust of the future users so it's very important to keep this in mind while basically building the building the pipeline after you have other consideration especially for trading of tokenized Securities which is Market making because you need actually to to populate the order book and to have liquid and some depth in the order book and here again it's about a new asset class and usually crypto market makers cannot use it because you might need a regulatory license to deal with Securities so you have some some of those Dimensions to take into account that's great thank you very much Victor M from your perspective any thoughts on trading on the training activity no I I agree with everything you said Victor um but going one step further than that I would like to highlight the the cold start problem that we have in in trading digital assets you know there the the markets are quite thin especially when these assets are initially issued uh sometimes uh both in crypto as well as in private markets uh we see that often times there's more venues than traders that are willing to uh trade the these assets um and TR in in public markets the the approach has been to use market makers you know to to make both sides of the market uh but of course they're they're expensive um often uh they're they're not willing to participate in private markets um and uh even even if they are uh specifically on on tokenized Securities uh we've spoken to uh multiple market makers who have a long list of requirements on the on on the smart contract composition on uh on on limitations on trades there's trade restrictions holding periods things like that all of which are impediments uh to Market making liquid markets on private Securities and so what we've looked at is having asset managers as alternative sources of liquidity uh We've brought relationships with uh Sovereign wealth funds with uh uh Pension funds who are the natural um holders of of a lot of these assets like credit uh real estate uh to step in to always be permanent liquidity sources for a lot of these uh private markets and we believe that that might be a more sustainable um Market structure which would eventually bring in liquidity and help mobilize the assets as as you said it's a question of uh accessibility and and liquidity and I think this is where we have a dilemma you're mentioning just the right things right we don't have a liquidity problem in bonds or equities you can trade them super efficiently today on any traditional exchange where you have liquidity and accessibility issues is with alternative private markets these sorts of private Equity private Market secur assets sorry and that's something that we need to over come I don't have a solution for that but I think this is where the technology will allow us to at least increase that liquidity and accessibility to the less liquid and less access accessible asset classes that's great point I don't know Matias if you have any other thoughts here I I mean I mean when we're talking about trading um at at least in Europe we we shouldn't forget the pilot regime um and um which was um yeah maybe some of you don't know pilot regime basically allows to settle and trade MTF trade digital financial instruments and there are certain um exemptions that apply so for example um in these infrastructures um Mika regulated e-money token can be used as a settlement asset um retail investors can directly access the MTF so and um at the beginning there was um a lot of discussion around the pilot regime because there were two two major things really that kept Market participants from from from implementing in that regime because first of all it was it is volume restricted um dependent on the asset class and the second aspect is that it was perceived as a temporary thing and after 3 years it would need to be re-evaluated whether um the the regime will be prolonged and and now there was some exchange between Asma and the commission and actually it turned out they're really committed to the the um yeah indefinitely um prolonging basically the DT pilot regime um because they were really saying that um that would only stop with a specific legislative act to stop it and they don't have any plans or intent to you know stop it and that's why really I think the opportunity opens up to work with the pilot regime do MTF trading with settlement and then really the pieces I think come together you have settlement currency you have MTF trading you have um the representation onchain digital representation then this can become really efficient also um and uh maybe the the future of of capital markets in Europe that's great thank you very much Matias H guys let's move to the next one which is the settlement the clearance settlement and very keen to maybe we start with you to and and hear from you exactly from you know from your perspective how do you see that happening and and whether we we actually need it to happen because at this conference at least at the panels that I joined I didn't hear once the word or the words Atomic settlement not once did anyone refer to that as being a super important aspect and I wonder what why that is whether it is and I think that's the answer because people have understood it is just Atomic settlement the question whether you need clean ring in between we we'll see perhaps over time if we have massive markets where you have to start netting you know those transactions possibly but at the moment I think from a clearing and settlement perspective what can be evidenced on chain is actually super efficient seconds milliseconds the process will be will be conducted for me the the aspect of um what happens afterwards so the the sort of custody and again the mobility aspect is much more important but but perhaps we'll touch on that later that Atomic settlement process we we're evidencing all of us here right uh be it in the ECB trials on our blockchain platforms settling transferring assets from one wallet to another or getting it on chain not an issue today yeah you are we're talking about efficiencies here we are right so M do you agree with t on you know statement of the atomy settlement and do we really need settlement re on this on this environment what do you think yeah I think uh certainly in the long term I I would agree uh I do have some thoughts on it iic settlement but coming from my perspective in the US um let's you know if we if we restrict digital assets to private Securities um any kind of Securities trading uh is is a very very highly regulated uh activity you know we have the SEC we have finra guidelines from all of these people um we have tons of entities that are intermediaries in this in the settlement process we have everything from transfer agents uh to good control locations to qualified custodians they all have to work together to settle uh Securities be they private or public and um you know while the these intermediaries exist for customer protection which is obviously very important and uh you know um with with the uh March of techn with the development of Technology the role of these intermediaries uh has has to evolve um currently they are uh very wedded to the uh old technology and they need to evolve evolved to become more uh open and more Network oriented um for example uh um you know because of the existence of a lot of these intermediaries in the US we're seeing a lot of uh Walled Garden type of platforms uh come up especially for the trading of uh private Securities on the blockchain which means that you have to uh sign up for an account on on each of these platforms and you're restricted to trading only with other users of that platform this leads to fragmentation of liquidity this leads to low volumes this leads to all of the issues that we are seeing in private markets today uh what we think um that's that's pretty much an the anti-thesis of blockchain and crypto um and very much even unlike the public markets here which are forced to be interoperable uh by law um we think that the alternative is is an open ecosystem where uh it operates very similar to how uh a brokerage account exists today where you put your order at your at your normal brokerage that you've had relationships with over years um that brokerage uh routes the order to whichever uh platform gives you the best execution it gets executed and then you're able to log in to uh that that account and you're able to um uh to to see your tokens there's no blockchain involved it's the idea of account abstraction that the crypto World talks about a lot now the actual settlement uh I do agree that Atomic settlement DVP settlement is uh is the is is the ideal uh but at least in the US for example the actual blocker is the is the cash leg of the settlement uh the banking system doesn't use blockchain yet and so how do you settle cash unless than the two days or the three days that it takes for a wire transfer or an a transfer to clear is one of our biggest issues uh there's talks about stable coins cbdcs all of these are in the future but eventually once both legs are on some sort of blockchain obviously then I think we can talk about DVP and yeah very good thank you very much MX so guys we're touching about the last piece last but not least because it's a really critical point you mentioned till right that this is a very important point on the life cycle of digital assets so maybe Victor we start with you and then tillo tell us about how do you see I mean you know the difference between you know the traditional and you know the new the new world right so what do you see there so I think that it's important to start to R dissociate what you call cryptocurrencies from tokenized Securities and the simple difference would be corporate actions and the ability to perform what you call Asset servicing which is really a dedicated business line in most of the banks now from a crypto Tech technologically how it works so when it comes to cryptocurrency bitcoin you just have to store so it's about securing the private key in and protecting it in a secure way ethereum you have also the logic of smart contract where you will be creating a deploying issuing new tokens new smart contract so here you have the logic of smart contract deployment and smart contract function call and this is important to keep in mind when it come to tokenization because actually those two the smart contract deployment and the smart contract function call is all about managing the life cycle of the asset so that and this is where basically usually most of the crypto companies were not at all paying attention to while uh and that's why usually you have such a big gap between the crypto World crypto guys or defi versus the traditional Finance world so traditional Finance when you took custody you have the notion of asset servicing included crypto when you took custody in the beginning you didn't have this what we built at tus is really a fully integrated platform when you have this custody and tokenization integrated so that you can perform all those asset servicing so in the case of equity I don't know processing dividend payment in an automated way or calling smart contract functions at a discretionary way or level uh for for depth it will be processing coupon payments Etc so that basically the value chain become fully digitized and automated so that would be one dimension and for me it's really the key Dimension that we difference the two world it is it is indeed I mention so T from your perspective thoughts on the cast to De of the perhaps just two thoughts on that that I would add to complement one is uh risk if you take the entire life cycle of a of any asset of a security asset the real risk and the claims are raised in the asset servicing space it's not on the trading side it's not on the settlement side it's on you missing a corporate event you failing on a corporate event at size so I think that's that's where every everyone whether it's be in the traditional world or in the modern blockchain world we need to absolutely pay attention that asset servicing is delivered at in quality and um at the low risk as a as a counters side of that of that coin that's thought number one the second one is I hate to be that party pooper but we absolutely must remember that while we safe keep any asset in a wallet on chain we need to make sure that there's some level of mobility of that asset liquidity is a second aspect but Mobility that I as you rightly pointed out that I can move an asset from one Island ecosystem to another Island ecosystem that I create that interoperability that I create that liquidity that starts developing on the back of that interoperability that's for me is is missing there's one sentence I love to repeat from uh someone from a company called the value exchange he said congratulations you now have a token and you've just created Deadwood and you've created Deadwood precisely because of that point so customizing is also important but we need to think about what do we do next with those assets can we lend them out can we use them collateral whatever other financing transaction repo or other and that has not yet it's starting to develop but it's not quite there yet and for me those two aspects are very important in that in that last stage of the of the life cycle of a security that's great thank you very much Ste so so guys we have been going through the whole thing right the issuance trading settlement and the cast to theps and as we were going through you guys have been sharing many of the benefits of the digital assets Space versus traditional I want to ask each of you to give us the confession of you know what is the challenge right so if you think about digital assets as a whole what is the main challenge that you see in your organization in the industry on the digital assets space so maybe we start with you Mias yeah I mean and I'm going to ask you maybe one minute each because I have the last question I want to challenge you with the last question one minute of the main challenge that you face okay so so maybe you would expect me to say something like technology regulation things like that um but I think actually what what we see often times with our clients um that want to drive internally you know the the digit asset projects is that they face internal hurdles for example you know it maybe that's typical innovator dilemma maybe the market is perceived to be too small they're working on small Innovation budgets they get um um maybe blocked by the compliance department so really it take that's the fights they have to fight and that's why sometime it takes so long and maybe sometimes for some Market participant in fields a bit slow um but uh I think in the background really a lot of this is already happening Market perception but it's gradually changing right on on the client side you know okay very interesting thank you Victor main challenge I'm going to put myself in the shoes in the in the shoes of a bank usually because we we are well placed to we placed to comment usually when you tokenize an asset or when you want to get into digital Securities technologically you think so one there is which blockchain should I use is it a permission blockchain is it a public blockchain so question number one then question number two which kind of smart contract should I use is it you have this template open source you have another one so I don't know ERC 3643 ERC 1,400 CMT you have several but the reality is which one question mark so here and I will put this is I think the main challenge you have the regulatory but you have also the standardization and once you will have Global guidelines instead of just local guidelines or Regional guidelines where people actually might be using the same technology or know this is the right thing to use it will be easier our job as a technology provider is to abstract the complexity so that basically the client can focus on the use cases um but this standardization is still creating a lot of friction point it's a great Point uh Victor standardization as the main challenge that we are all facing man from your perspective main challenge yeah I'll I'll steal uh a point from you m uh I do think from the US perspective regulatory uncertainty is something that we uh still uh are faced with every day um the current SEC guidelines allow us to settle tokenized Securities on the blockchain but only in parallel with the traditional uh settlement system and so you know right now there's still a lot of debate about what the best way to do tokenized settlement is and Clarity on that matter I think uh would would really set us on a rocket ship trajectory yeah definitely regulation is is a big theme right a big challenge for all of us in the US particularly as well T Big Challenge I'll say I'll say you usability and USP usability because precisely what you just mentioned we're still talking about the tech and unfortunately we need to do you know what's behind chat GPT or do you know what's behind Spotify in terms of tech no you don't and it doesn't matter because it's usable it delivers value to you immediately and that's why usability and USP is important usability I've just mentioned on the USP P side at a at a wholesale institutional grade level the banks that we speak to still struggle with the USP of DLT right they want to reap the benefits of digitization efficiency cost effects speed all of these things but why need to jump into a new tech stack and that's something that they're struggling with and the the colleague from uh the spartum group mentioned it we need to take the banks along and we need to convince them and explain to them why this is also good for them and that's what we're struggling with usability USB that's a great another great point on the challenge right usability and USB excellent so guys we have two more minutes and I want to wrap up with something special today for the audience tell us a secret tell us a secret that we don't know tell us a secret of something that is going on in the industry in your in your organization something that we don't know come on we start with you Mia yeah so so we we are working with a lot of um banking clients we we are working with a lot of banking clients in in Germany and and we have a good view on the market there and um it might be perceived um that not so much is happening but my um projection is that really we will see all the large German banks um to have a crypto offerings for either institutional or retail clients in the next one to two years years they are now building their digited infrastructure at the basis for to do further use cases to build tokenization on top Securities on top and they are building this key management and basic infrastructure now starting with crypto where the business case currently is and then moving on that's great thank you very much for the secret a lot of things going on in Germany right so Victor tell us a secret it won't be a secret it's more a thought uh for being in the digital set space I think it's like fast is slow and slow is fast people usually overestimate the speed of change or underestimate it uh the the digital asset space has always moved in boom and burst cycle so I think that when it accelerates and I think it's quite soon uh it's always going Beyond imagination and same uh when you think it's going to be revolution it's becoming slower so we are at this phase where I believe it might re accelerate again all right very good thank you very much V tell us a secret please I don't know if it's so much a secret as kind of a reiteration of our vision but we're we're working to make the blockchain ubiquitous so that you don't have to care about your wallet or login or care about your private Keys you will log in the same way as as as you have always and the blockchain will be there to just in the back end kind of doing the work for you it'll be like your smartphone you won't have to think about it well that's uh that's that's a good one D tell us a secret please everyone's been talking about DT and blockchain really taking off going through the roof in the next 24 months in in two years it'll be it'll be will be there I think it's not going to take another 15 months it will not take another 15 months for it to really take off in the institutional space we can expect that many more traditional players will be massively not only investing because they already have using blockchain technology to tokenize assets move them on chain create business opportunities following the custody point that I've made earlier so it's not going to take another 24 months it's not going to even take 18 months all right get get you know keep an eye on the on the traditional business side is is rocketing now right so guys we're out of time thank you so much for your time I think these guys deserve a round of applause thank you for this fantastic panel Matias Victor man and Ando thank