Jamie Pitts | Standards-Building In Ethereum-land

okay so we just do the recording and no video streaming right yeah okay so i hope it's all right if we do video recordings so we can post it on youtube channels later on um so welcome everybody um today is the type eight year meetup first event in this 2021 yeah um we did a lot of online events last year and i sort of like curated and coordinated most i mean not all like many of the online events um so if you're interested in speaking or if you're interested in hosting something like this um you can talk to me early on or people here um i like to thank a bitcoin community uh tim forway he says that the hackers face key holders and so he sort of like helped us and curated his space um we appreciate that um so today we're going to speak about a very interesting topic which is about eips and like how standards are formed um in ethereum state um and i'd like to introduce our speaker my first speaker today um jamie peace he is the um devops at interim foundation he's also like a very important core member of ethereum magician um so yeah thank you i'm happy to be here i came here about two months ago and um i love taipei it's just wonderful here um so um i think a lot of people um thinking about ethereum it's a lot of people don't understand how ethereum might be maintained or updated and and also any technology a lot of people look to a company they're thinking a technology is run by a company and so the company makes the decisions but in decentralized space like this in a space where it's a very open technology an open field it's a very different situation so this talk is to talk is to discuss standards building in ethereum um and we touch on some standards building in general these principles apply to any open source or open platform um which includes bitcoin and big points later but in these presentations so um i guess you could move it forward um i'm jamie pitts i work at the ethereum foundation and i also help with the ethereum magicians which is an open organization ethereum foundation is um i you could call it an r d organization that develops the ethereum platform but does not control it um despite rumors um which which are very common with all these platforms basically moving forward so i'll give you some resources to start with if you want to load these some of these on your phone or laptop take a picture of it these are the key websites that will lead you into this whole world of vips and standards building um so you can move it forward um so to start with um think about it generally what a technical standard is um the technical standards have been with us for hundreds of years it's just a very old concept and um it starts in industrial society um people need to coordinate for example the width of rail uh railroad rails is a really uh i guess a classic case of standards where they have to agree on what is what is the the standard width of the of a rail for a railroad system um and it really um it applies in in technology and and traditionally it's been corporate right like ibm will like reach out to their stakeholders and decide what the standard is and maybe there's some feedback but they basically set it down um there was a big rebellion against ibm um with for example the unix operating system which created like you know much more of an open standard and then also the internet itself starting with arpanet um that's a classic modern standards situation where you have stakeholders who come together in a very open non-corporate controlled situation and they move the internet standards forward um and so um and and a lot of times people don't understand what how that happens like what is the situation how do people coordinate on something so complicated as as all these um all the standards that create the modern internet and and cryptography standards and things like that um and so we'll go into that a little bit um but the the key is you you want to have a uniform the idea is a very well formatted definition that everyone can agree on and understand so that you can implement what the standard is so that's the big idea of technical standard and it of course the standard takes a lot of human interaction levels so there's a big social and political component to creating a standard and we sense it all the time you see in bitcoin and ethereum and many of these other platforms there's all these controversies a lot of the times the controversy is surrounding what will happen next on the platform who the stakeholders are who's going to lose who's going to win and then all the conspiracy theories that emerge from all of that situation um so yeah um and so the big question is are standards different in ethereum land and our standards different in the open networks the the decentralized networks um and so the challenge is right the the key challenge and it's very similar to challenge with standards like tcp um in internet related standards you basically have a situation where nobody's in charge you don't have a corporation um you might have some big players you know you have like an ethereum land you have consensus um you have uh you know basically geniuses out there like vitalik and and many other people who are um factors but no one's really in charge like people can can try to uh say their will they could say say something has a lot of weight but it's not like there's a masternode on all these things despite despite the rumors um and so another key thing and this this really applies to bitcoin too and it's a little bit different i mean internet is cr i mean it's utterly mission critical but the thing is when you have a system with so much value embedded in it the standard the process becomes very difficult because of of the stakes at play like you make a mistake and your network goes down you lose credibility um you can be attacked there's so many things that can go wrong um uh and obviously you know i mentioned it before there's controversy and uh the last one oh yeah and so like and that you know leads to a lot of consensus building and a lot of needs finding it takes a long time to arrive at what you want to do and then even longer time to make sure that once you have the standard what you want to do you need to test the hell out of that thing um you you need to deploy test nets um and i'm not sure in the bitcoin side about what the test net situation is but in ethereum um we're really careful to launch a test net with new the new upgrade the new features that are going to go into that and see what happens get people to to learn it to play with it um so those are the challenges and ultimately though there's a lot of opportunities here and um because it's an open system it really lends itself to people um getting involved and it's a very it's a great thing because you don't have to get hired by some company or something to get involved with with this amazing thing that you're interested in you you can start to learn it you can go online and learn these things and you can show up to meetings the online meetings you can show up to the forums um it's very open access and these are the main open institutions right now in ethereum land you have these these groups and in the background there's other institutions um like say in decentralized finance there's a lot of emerging i guess you call them companies or collectives there that are increasingly powerful there's minors so there's a lot of stakeholders there that are in the background and so it creates an opportunity for everybody to get involved like choose your poison like which group do you want to get involved with how do you want to you know how do you want to affect this who are who who do you get along with um so and it's being an open system anyone can propose any crazy thing and so um often you have like lead developers who work on for example the ethereum client and that those people will often propose big changes to the platform they'll write up a very long proposal and then people will talk about it for months and months and then at some point it becomes more of a formal standard um but anyone really can can come in and within probably a couple months even if they have no experience with blockchain if if they have the engineering talent and the ability to communicate and gather people together such a person could start to impact the platform very quickly um and um when you propose something let's say you're proposing let's say in ethereum's case there's the evm and there's instruction set for the evm you want to propose a new op code you want to propose some modification to it when you write that up um you're going to get a lot of good input unless you're a complete joker like if you just show up and you propose something silly but if you propose something real you're going to get somebody who who is a core part of it to comment and they might hate it um but and they might like it they're going to give you some really good feedback so that there's that's kind of an interesting thing um and ultimately like you want to bring value to the network and this is how the platform evolves and and um as i understand that bitcoin has quite a few innovations um you know every year too you see these innovations come in and ethereum like the rumor is that bitcoin doesn't doesn't move as fast as ethereum but it's not true like these platforms all are evolving and everyone want really wants to bring value to the platform even when it's they're causing controversy even when they're causing trouble um so to start with the proposal um this is a classic this is the classic um eip and it's it's actually the thing about this eip and we all know what erc 20 is it's like the tokens that cause the the ico mania and are currently critical to defy and all kinds of interesting things are coming out of this um was a proposal back in 2015 and there's two authors i don't even know if vitalik was the first one but i know that several people were at the time were proposing different ideas of how to run new kinds of tokens on ethereum platform and so this is what emerge came out of that that primordial soup of discussion and uh this is um if you want to see a classic aip this is a really good one to start with and eip describes all the different um contract calls that would that would enable tokens to exist um in in on the evm um and so i guess we'll go look at the proposal a little bit how a proposal works okay yeah so generally eips you hear the term eips or some people pronounce it eep and so it's like gif and jif some people pronounce it eve some people eip um it's this is the general description of of the standard that would improve ethereum and it could be the platform itself it could be something like related to smart contracts it could be related to wallets pretty much any crazy thing you can even just make a commentary like you can write an essay and submit it as an eip and that could just be a general like you know something that you want to say some opinion um and so the next one uh erc's um that's a type of vip that is really specific for um applications and so it might be like smart contract standards um it could it could be wallet-related standards and a core eip now these are the ones that this process is the one that you probably read about um on uh out there that might be causing controversies core eips are things that modify the ethereum platform in a way that would cause a hard fork so the block before the vip was triggered in clients you have one ethereum and the block after you have another ethereum and if there's clients that in and say say block 999 and block 1000 so block 999 half the clients have installed software that do not implement the core eip half of the clients do implement the core eip once it reaches a thousand the network will split as soon as a transaction comes forward that makes use of the new feature of a corey ip the network will split and so that's why they call forking um and there's a lot of people that want to actually rename that to upgrade um it sounds less extreme but it's the same thing um and so i guess we can go over getting a core how to get a core eip to ethereum mainnet um so there's one is the eip process which is the proposals and dealing with the social dynamics of improving that and getting feedback and the second part of the process is the network upgrade process now previously these two used to be a lot more intertwined and so to reduce the politics of it they started diverging like divorcing the process a little bit more um so the eip process it's the goal is quality um and um to enable people to get get the feedback um for the for the proposal and so the key place to do it is the magician's forum which is a discourse forum and basically when when people want to propose an eip um they might start there to get the feedback like this is what i want to do and then people just basically discuss it um and uh you want to find out who the stakeholders are so if your eip app is has to do with d5 you'll want to get some of those d5 groups to to get feedback or if your eip is core you definitely want to try to get some core developers to comment about the implications of what what that eip is so and the thing about the eip aspect is that um it doesn't it doesn't it leads to a lot of improvement and development of the standard but it doesn't mean the standards adopted there are some standards that take years and people have discussed these things for years um one one classic is progpow which is changing an algebra an important algorithm about mining and more more recently you have you have proposals that change the algorithm for gas pricing um those kinds of vips take years and sometimes it doesn't go anywhere it's like a law that congress the senate is discussing and they never pass it but it just it sits around because maybe it will happen um and so the network upgrade is a separate process and it's the core developers who get together and they decide which eips are selected and for an upgrade of ethereum for the network um and so the goal is is a healthy network that's evolving if people try to come up with all kinds of crazy ideas about what is the motive of poor devs the simplest way to put it is they care that the ethereum network is helping that it it's resilient it's secure it's doing its basic premise which is which is blocks containing transactions that move that that that keep accumulating the state they want a healthy network um and they develop the clients they're the ones who are actually the ones every week who do the testing and development of geth formerly parody um bezu like these kinds of clients they do that work they actually are co coding that stuff so they decide which eips go in there's a group called the ethereum cat herders who are um i guess you call them the operations they're like an operations group that makes the process more efficient as you can imagine that that's why they call themselves the cat herders because it was very it was probably more disorganized than it is now now it's it almost i wouldn't call it corporate but it it's it's just it's very much more organized um and then there's another group called the hardport coordinators who they're involved with the cat herders and the hardport coordinators schedule they um make sure that things are tested and they they communicate with the client developers and make sure that things are moving forward um and the core devs themselves the the key to it is um on youtube you can search for ethereum core devs calls and you can actually see this in action there i think there's at least a hundred um recorded meetings and they have them every two weeks uh it's very interesting process so um and so yeah that i've already described who those guys are um and the key the key thing about these calls is they're making a very important decision it's a very technical kind of decision they try to be as they try to be apolitical even though the decisions they make sometimes get political they ten they really try to avoid politics and you can tell and the key to it is finding consensus and in in a decentralized situation where you have a decentralized technology you don't have authority and that's the key you don't have some boss who could make the final decision people make the decision together and that it it does seem it does seem similar to the technical consensus that happens that actually moves the blockchain forward to produce blacks human but it's human consensus and they they evaluate all all of the all the needs of the stakeholders they consider their interest which is healthy network they consider all they have to consider so many things and then they have to arrive at a conclusion without voting like they don't vote and so it's a very strange it's a very strange thing when you listen to it i think often reporters don't understand how a decision was made because they think um hudson who's the who's the current facilitator they think hudson decided something but it it really what was happening was he was listening to the what people were saying and he was not he was seeing that there were no blocking objections he was seeing that people um have been reaching their own their their own personal belief and and solid thinking he could see that as a group the group's thinking had moved forward and close to a decision and he could see that that's consensus and that's a very it's a very special kind of skill to learn and for a group to have um i think consensus is probably one of the most interesting governance things of all of this whole field really um the process is open um with a caveat you have to get hudson to invite you to the call um so if you just want to show up in your new person and they might they might not let you on the call because you might be disruptive but if you have an eip and it's ready and some people are interested in it you're probably going to get on that call um and they're all posted to youtube so you can search for it um so individually how how would you work on an eip um so the eips are gonna get repo and i gave you the the link earlier and um it's interesting it's like this big pile of vips it's a bunch of files and you submit pull requests and so um it's a very open it's a very open system um you can clone a repo and get involved with it so if you if you have an idea obviously you probably should start with the magician's form or twitter um you could be on twitter complaining and i am solution come on solution and get feedback um magicians form might be a better place than twitter to do that as you get closer to actually wanting to be formal and write up the eip you would go to eip1 and eip1 is you could think of it like the constitution of the eyepiece and so it tells you what the what the flow is what the process is and recently the ethereum cat herders did a big reform reform effort and um what's funny funny thing about eip1 is it actually uh there's a history to it the previous iteration was actually bip eip is based on the bit format so um i think they even just copied the the repo um and copy the format of bip one um is there a bip one in from bitcoin land i i don't know um i suspect there is and even before bitcoin there was a python it was pip i think it was pip was it pip yeah yeah something like that and so there there's this weird history and so there's a lot of um crafty legislation or crafty code carrying over from those previous eras um and so the ethereum characters did a big like improvement process of eips um but they only did it for the core eip and so erc is actually kind of less organized and so there's a lot of opportunity erc is a big field there's wallet um there's d5 there's so many so many interesting things and it's not even close to as organized as the core eip process and i think that in the next couple of years erc's particularly d5 d5 related erc's wallet i think that's going to be a really important space um either the community is going to solve this or corporations are going to solve it for the community um because uh it's just there's too many moving parts these things have to be coordinated um so i guess so the um this is kind of boring but uh eips have a very a specific format and a lot of people forget to to write some of these sections still like write this amazing um uh amazing specification without really describing the rationale the reason the reason why you're doing this um so it's very important to follow the format um there's a group of people called eip editors that will keep bothering you until until you've you know got it in good good enough shape for it to be paid attention to to be taken seriously um are you one of those scientists no editors no no no i've avoided that it's hard work a little bit like dude okay um so yeah if you're ready to propose ready to to try something out go to the ethereum magicians.org and you'll see it's a forum and there's just tons of stuff going on um right now there's there's um there's some controversies there um so it's always fun to see what what the latest thing people might be having controversy about um other another thing that happened recently that was really cool was um flash loans which is like this very strange uh mechanism in d5 they proposed a standard for flash loans and basically okay i'm gonna try to describe it it's a mat it's such an interesting thing so basically a flash loan means that if basically you can you can borrow any amount of ether with without collateral to perform an operation as long as by the by the end of this transaction you have enough money to pay it back so let's say you see a security vulnerability in a smart contract system um so you see a security vulnerability and you say i need a billion dollars to attack this to make let's say a dollar profit so your goal is to make a dollar profit off of a billion dollar attack um just to make a point you just want to show that this thing is weak and all you want is a dollar out of it and so as long as at the end of that set transaction within that block as long as you have a billion dollars out to pay the loan back you're good now you have a dollar and you don't need collateral to do that so that's a flash loan and so recently that was there's a standard proposed and several smart contract systems are implementing it i believe ave is one of them so um there's all kinds of strange eips out there um so uh yeah don't be shy um this is this is a example of somebody who proposed um status codes for smart contracts and um yeah she uh this one's just mainly get a discussion going she already had the the erc ready um so she had already had gotten feedback this is more of like a follow-up post but um when new people come in they want to try something new we call it primordial soup that's just new ideas and let it swirl around and evolve um but her she's more prepared she's already got uh you know she's already got her eip ready um so i think i think this is the last one right let's see yeah okay here's the links again if you want to check the links and um i want to see if you had uh any questions about the process um what how much time do we have what time is that uh what do you have uh i've got a couple minutes i don't know yeah yeah yeah if you go um yeah definitely if are there any questions you have about the process or um any any insights from other blockchains okay so um what what that means is that um you could go into conversations about a current proposal and these conversations sometimes have dozens and dozens of of responses you may have some insight on that like you can study the proposal you can study the impact and you can enter the conversation and just say you need to modify the the proposal because if you don't like someone could lose money or some security some security issue here and so that's what i mean by help out is that um you know people can study the situation and contribute even if they're new you know it takes a little bit of time but yeah it's very open in that way by giving feedback exactly yeah it's critical because um there's a lot of vips and everybody's very busy um on the topic of sort of having instances on board with the ivs i think that's really interesting i'm wondering if you could talk about the mp1559 the one on the gas cages and i know that's sort of been posed for a while and maybe it will be fascinating like yeah and the context of people trying to consensus on it and maybe if it would move or win yeah that's a big one you know that's actually the a really hot issue right now and it's interesting because um you know i'm not i'm not too familiar with it but i do recall that um that this this eip um some modeling was required of it and some people asked that you modeled the impact of this change and it's a change of the of the algorithm that drives the gas gas cost and as you can imagine with ethereum with d5 summer gas costs skyrocketed gas costs are very sensitive issue for a lot of people um and additionally this eip is necessary for ethereum too and this is an area i'm not as familiar with why it's required for ethereum two but i believe it's i believe it's important but it's already finalized um they just happened yeah integrate no yeah they have not included it and there's actually going to be some controversy because so it's not violent um you know i'm not sure if the new the the term final is is a classification for eips and traditionally final meant that it's deployed if it's a corey ip but they've changed that i do know it's not implemented and deployed on the network all the clients have they've implemented it but they're not activating it and i think that decision is is going to be a very difficult decision because i believe there's objections from some minors who believe they will lose they will lose some revenue well but then i thought that once they have the football state then the miner is not the bank well yeah but that's a long time from now in the meantime i mean that could be several years before um mining is completely off is out for the platform um that's really uncertain actually but it you know it's clear that ethereum two would like ethereum one to be brought into into the beacon chain into the ethereum two um phase one um but how that works with miners i don't know because the core devs are the ones who decide what happens with ethereum one um so yeah this um this change the cip is actually a really good test for how it's going to go when it comes to how you deal with the miners and their stake in this when you go to to proof of stake and not proof of work um so it's really kind of a big litmus test um so is there a stage before you finalize yeah for example the what was that one final erc-20 yeah yeah before it become finalized what was that stage before that okay so um you know i can't answer that question because the cat herders have there's a new there's a new framework for it um but there are several classifications for it that mean that it's active um there's other classifications that means that it's inactive or dropped and so um erc20 what's interesting is it reached final but like who decided that this is very strange to me because it's an erc does the core devs make that final i don't know if that's appropriate because the quarterbacks talk about that talk about the court 55 by engine point i saw the circle around but i'm not sure if that's fine i like this actually yeah yeah yeah my my thinking about it is um core devs talk about core but there needs to be other groups that talk about these other kinds of standards so if it's a token standard maybe there needs to be a token group emerging that becomes the final the group that decides that this standard is ready because who decides right now like you know you can convince the editor to switch at the final because there's no one in charge of it um yeah i mean at that point wouldn't you want all the stakeholders like maybe the larger people projects that you can assist come together and exactly sign off on it yeah yeah exactly yeah i like web standards for like different and google and that's exactly it so is there like a end point like okay now we have the final votes so it's official yeah something like that yeah i think that should be that is the proper way to go and that's how it's done with corey ips yeah so they're uh kind of like a state or how how do you decide whether it's final okay so the it's the editors who change the status so there's a lego calendar um yeah that's now that's for core the cat hurt has maintained the calendar um yeah and yeah i hope i'm explaining that and did we um did did i answer the question about um eip159 yeah is it okay um that's going to be a very long process i think yeah yeah that's a slightly different question how do you when you're trying to come up it's a consensus how do the miners get a voice like who represents that i it is kind of funny because um i don't know if you've ever seen dune the movie but there's this point in doing a movie where the navigators show up to the emperor and they're like really powerful right and i feel like this is what happens with miners they don't they're not really like integrated with the core devs but they're a very powerful interest and when they're activated like they start they want to sometimes will send somebody but it's really hard to know does that person really represent the minor the mining guild is there even a mining guild um and i really feel as if there should be any kind of group like that should have some calls and should have an embassary or somebody who represents them to the cordes um and the same goes for these like like you're saying like there needs to be um some representation from from d5 from users even from wallet from wallet builders for changes like if they wanted i mean erc20 has a lot of problems and so there's new token standards to try to address those which one of those becomes the standard there needs to be a consensus among these stakeholders for that i think that will happen because it's crazy without without the without that kind of representation apparently it's like a lack of representations from different groups yeah that's what i'm saying yeah and the magicians was for a long time we were trying to facilitate that it's actually very difficult it needs to be emergent you can't just i mean maybe we're being a little bit pushy we're just like you guys different groups need to organize and it wasn't really happening and so you know it needs to come from the ground up there needs to be leadership what are some of the goals that israel religions wanted to achieve this year um well this year like we've we we were discussing it to focus on l2s um their ltu's is really important until ethereum two um gets into the phase one and phase two that could take time there could be lots of uh difficulties with such things in the near term l2 is the way that you can scale your application and the tricky thing is when you with d5 it's like when you use some some of the d5 things they really connect integrate well with each other all the different d5 systems that's the nature of the ethereum platform but when you have l2s will you be able to compose some of these amazing mechanisms when when the l2s are basically isolated so you need the l2s to be able to connect together so that if you do a complicated transaction the l2s can be um making sure that the transaction occurs and calling calling the the the other systems on on the other l2's um that needs standardization so that that's the kind of thing that works on the l2 solutions that the distance are looking closely all of them like there's yeah there's zero there's zk there's l twos that are zk related um there's l twos they're like optimism optimistic rollups yeah matic yeah which are there top tape channels the side chain doesn't talk to each other you need something yeah yeah something that brings things together you you have you have many different options you have plasmas you you have state channels you have these l2s that are roll up roll up l2 and so yeah those all those things need standards to be able to communicate and create the same experience that makes the deering platform work with this new cheaper faster solution um would it be possible what was it doing magicians look into anything like uh how to integrate something like flash loans like an atomic transaction throughout the l2s would that even possible talk about that it's a good one uh i i think i think will happen they will do that one one proposal was actually to create state channels between l2s and i'm not sure what whether you can do a flashlight within that scenario if that's secure or not um but i would i would really like to facilitate that kind of conversation because i think that that's where the actions at right now um yeah because yeah the l2 is the immediate practical way like if you've used zk sync or or um what is the loop ring go check out loop ring loop ring is like this much faster experience and it's the it's a quintessential l2 it shares security with the ethereum network it's kind of like lighting network yeah boy very much so yeah and and and that's and that's the power of lightning network right it is sharing bitcoins security um and implant and as far as i understand plasma is very similar to lightning network um these these are the way forward to scale in near term so yeah that's that's one thing we're interested in well the only thing that i travel you know playing with l2 right now is usually you need to deposit so either using bridge then then it takes time because yeah and but if you do a flashlight then you won't be able to do it in one transaction yeah the flashlight would have to originate in the l2 and so yeah i'm not it it's a really interesting scenario there yeah yeah the magic of flashlights across l2s do you have any suggestions for developers in taiwan want to participate um i think uh yeah i think there's a lot of opportunity i mean there's there's several startups in taipei and you know all of us and probably most of us or all of us are interested in blockchains you have to i think it's really up to the individual um i i think i don't see a lot of participation from taiwan in in this um and but i i would definitely encourage it um i don't think there's anything specific um but uh but yeah whatever you're interested in i think there's there's probably some eip that that needs some work that is in your expert area is that it um yeah yeah and so what he said is metallic still is just a lot of the details here or i've heard that he's kind of kind of like like i guess decentralized kind of control oh for sure yeah like um that's definitely something he's done and um you know he he would he likes the way the the current setup is for moving the protocol forward and he does not intervene and the ethereum foundation management or the operations of ethereum foundation does not definitely does not intervene in this he is engaged but as you can see if you go to eat research which is very similar to theory of magicians as a forum you'll see him there mostly and that's where he's doing most of his work like just pushing research proposals for it once in a while he will propose an eip um like one five five nine he's a co-author of that um so yeah he he's definitely engaged but he's not constantly doing things and in that distance it's important it let other people feel like they could just carry the load and get and move it for themselves how often do you host phone calls um sporadically but maybe more often yeah we should do it more often but it's sporadic yeah but yeah we should i think i was thinking of doing something more regular yeah a lot of times what we would do is we'd go to conferences and just like that yeah we'd go to defcon and things like that we'd get a room and we'd have some magicians discussions like we would i think i'll do well each cc where everyone got copied yeah unfortunately yeah so yeah ecc um but that was a good that was a good discussion um we talked about proc pal um but yeah usually all in person conferences it will try to be there and let see who needs to discuss something nothing this year yeah and that's why we did l2s just to do an online okay yeah discussion for that yeah um well we definitely would like more help um just to be able to have more regular calls i think that's that would be really great um but i think certainly going into the forums and and participating just getting involved with the ips is is um the i think the best a lot of people can do but if you have extra cycles we would definitely appreciate like if someone would help us uh organize online meetups and things like that i do have a question yeah i think kevin would started the salinity right he is the one that i think he may have authored the original he may have worked on the original language yeah and i heard that uh they're going to move into web assembly or okay so yeah the proposal is for wasm to be key to phase two to have contract smart contracts on during i don't know i don't know it's not for sure i don't think it's for sure some people might think it's for sure but i think evm has such a strong like uptake so much use usage so so many security tools for it i can't imagine it will be very easy to say hey let's just switch to wasm but why do you why does it need to move um i don't understand the permits personally i think was i think the idea was that wasn't might have more developer appeal you can also use other languages than solidity to compile to wasn't um but it there's so much tooling for solidity i i don't know i i what i what i like about phase two and ethereum two is that there might be wasm um uh execution engines there might be evm execution engines there might be roll-up execution engines so um or environments execution environments and so there's no there's no need to say it's only wasm basically um but i think wasm will probably have a pretty good blessing right amen my impression is that um yeah what wasn't was like promising a better efficiency certain computations but um the uh the there wasn't the current benchmark uh shows that uh some part of a computation uh idiom is better and some part of our translator so there's not another really different thing that wasn't like that it's just like 60 plus plus compared to uh other you know you don't know which one is better it's all dependent on the cases yeah and yeah they're still ongoing benchmarking research yeah that's definitely happening as a devops person at the foundation i can see that there's benchmarking happening i can confirm that it's costing money yeah thanks very much for your sharing and we'll take a break okay yeah thanks thank you guys um so i suggest we can take a break right now like 10 15 minutes