How to Build Solid Infrastructure for Web3? | European Blockchain Convention 9

[Music] 3 2 1 all right good afternoon everybody I hope you had a nice lunch break and a good uh EBC so far uh my name is Benedict Fel I'm head of blockchain at bitcom Europe's largest digital Association and I'm very very thrilled and excited to have some uh esteemed experts with me um who can offer a diverse View and background on web 3 and how to build solid infrastructure for web 3 so um before we start I would say let's do a quick round of introduction who are you and why are you here today and let's start with demo and then we just go over to you Anan cool hi everybody good afternoon my name is uh Demetrius scotus everybody calls me Demo I'm the CEO of expand. network we are an uh single API for accessing and connecting you to all of defi so we're an outsourced SAS infrastructure provider uh hello everyone I'm Joe rundi I'm a uh co-founder of unit Network which is a par chain on polka dot Network um we the unit Network makes it very easy for everyone to tokenize everything in the world in a very decentralized way um so we're uh we're tokenizing real world assets and um making that Vision come to reality yeah hi everyone my name is KH vashishta I'm the co-founder in C of Z so we are you know focused at making web3 infrastructure really simple by automating you know how things are done at z u you know so you know from App chains to rollups to you know normal validator non- validator nodes we are automating everything underneath so yeah that's what we do so hello everyone H my name is Pat vario I'm the web three product manager at telica one of the largest Telos in the world and and we use web3 and other Innovation Technologies in order to aim or mission of connecting people and I'm the CEO of biocrypt and we are world's first hybrid Sharia compliant cryptocurrency exchange I've been in crypto industry since 2015 and I've seen a lot of inefficiencies in the system and that was one of the reasons for starting biocrypt all right so they say that crypto winter is for building and um I know that you all know of course what uh web 3 is about and what we are building for but maybe to start off um I I brought a number so in Germany we asked uh how many people know the term web 3 and 71% said they've heard of web 3 but I doubt that all of them can explain it so maybe for for the audience in front of the screen and here can anyone of you just briefly try to explain what web 3 is about before we dive into what infrastructure to build for web 3 yeah well I think that the what three I think the response to the Dilemma of centralization I like to see in a way that uh we 3 gives uh superpowers to the builders in two different ways I think the first one is the centralization so you can get create and and an app that cannot for instance shut down and on the other side I like to see what three is a technology that is uh iterating and innovating I mean it's like a Lego pieces that you that are composable for instance and you can get these Lego pieces from other project you can build on top and then you are you are innovating on top of the what you get from other projects so Innovation the decentralization so I think that are two main factors that we3 is allowing to the to the builders right uh to me you know web 3 is is the first technology which brought the term transparency ever I have heard before that you know transparency was never there we only heard about programs and softwares and Technologies and Frameworks doing jobs for us and we never question them but this is the first time you realize that oh there are more than to it than you know just running softwares building applications uh designing Frameworks designing Solutions across the globe doing different implementations there is a different angle to it so now we trying to Define that different angle with the web3 which is about you know transparency trust and how do you actually operate rather than just build so yeah you know web3 kind of you know is a new narrative bringing uh a new version of uh you know Solutions towards us and we just have to accept it uh in a in a gradual manner over the time all right so now we got a quick introduction on web 3 um let's dive right into it so how to build solid infrastructure for web 3 um and maybe can we start off by where are we at right now what is the infrastructure that we are working with right now that that you're building that you're creating um who wants who wants to start here so with unit Network um the big thing that we are focused on is the fact that there are very few real applications out there that consumers are using on blockchain and you know you look at openc maybe Unis swap um it's kind of embarrassing how many you know maybe 20,000 30,000 active users per day I mean it's out of 8 billion people in the world it's very tiny uh it's a it's just a it's a very it's not even a a sub niche of of the world economy it's a very small part so uh a a huge part of the infrastructure we're trying to build is is making it consumer facing uh having people be able to just log in see exact see a very important reason for them to use a web 3 application and uh um and have it add to their lives the same way people joined Facebook or or Instagram over the years or you know Tik Tok now the sort of network effect that can just draw people in um yes you can do marketing from a central place but also you know you need to have that virality take root um so under that you have to have the secure transparent all the things that people have been doing in blockchain to this point but to build on top of that um things that people want to use is really really important just to add on that I think that the world that we live in is extremely fast-paced never changing uh a lot of new protocols layer ones layer twos being announced it's extremely fragmented space and I think the the the job that some of us are doing is really trying to eliminate the complexity allow people to scale quickly get to the enduser applications that they need and connect people to the applications that they want to use and work with without having to integrate 100 different things uh independently and by the time you get that done it's all changed again and you've got to do it again so you've got to work with you know cool infrastructure SAS providers that are doing that work so you can scale quickly and focus on your end user and your customer okay so you're saying everybody's working on it but that implies that we are still lacking something to have this really solid infrastructure to build on or do you think we are already there is this like a a good status of of web 3 well I think a big part of it is that you know Bitcoin sort of just created this sort of from the in retrospect sort of a dumb I send this to this place and it's a decentralized way of moving a thing from here to there uh ethereum is just a on Lane Highway as well so one of the big infrastructure advancements is this concept of sharding or par of chains or you know the Avalanche and Cosmos and polka dot um you know ethereum 2.0 and a number of other chains are doing this sort of application based chains that use a secure um relay chain or a central layer uh that's a really big thing because it you know you can you can change uh you can change the blockchain you can you can upgrade things in a without having to Fork it a few years ago you had the the the Dow hack on ethereum and it was just a massive undertaking to to Fork the ethereum blockchain and you know it was a lot of controversy and vote and you know they say about democracy it's the worst system of government except for all the others well in um if you if you vote and you lose you don't get what you want uh with a forkless upgrade you can just you can kind of change the chain and um that's a really big thing because we need to be able to evolve in a more seamless way yeah and you know that's a fantastic Point uh about you know what is going to happen you know app chains and these you know new generation of chains but the interesting question is is how the next billion users will be on web 3 and infrastructure is the key to that so to bring in the next billion set of users on web 3 which are primarily doing web 2 today they're not doing web 3 so we need to focus upon how those 2.0 users will get to 3.0 and to facilitate that infrastructure requires you know a rethinking it cannot be done the way it was done before it requires rethinking about how do you bring security how do you bring compliance comfort and how do you bring scalability and address these things in a very generic framework and then let people come to web free over time it can happen overnight but you have to Define these three primary elements and then it will happen on its own and to add to that point is how to bring the next billion users we have to understand what actually consist of building a solid web 3 project and first we have to understand that uh the way web 3 ecosystem works we have to understand the node infrastructure we have to understand the selection of the right blockchain if your application is a def application you have to understand the complexity and security that involves the financial transactions and one of the main obstacles of bringing the next billion users into the web 3 is the Safety and Security and Trust okay so one of the ways to do that is uh to have a hybrid approach and hybrid approach basically means take the best features of centralization and decentralization and combine them into one platform cuz obviously Central is ation doesn't work it doesn't work 2022 was the perfect example why it doesn't work we had seen what happened with Celsius Voyager bab Finance everybody had seen what happened with FDX people entrusted their funds to a centralized platform and they lost it now we also have fully decentralized platforms but they are not efficient as well we have platforms such as Sushi swap Unis Swap and many other fully decentralized platforms but because they are fully decentralized there's no Central authority to vet any projects behind them that's why anybody literally anybody could have a project on a fully decentralized platform and that project could turn out to be a Honeypot rockpool or straight out scam and one of the examples is 2022 people had lost over $2 billion to to fully decentralized platforms so this is the problem people are losing money on centralized platforms people are also losing money to fully decentralized platforms and nobody's providing a solution and solution for the future crypto project is basically taking the hybrid approach any comments on this hybrid approach or uh go either way like very centralized or decentralized in that sense yeah as telica as you know is a a large Enterprise so we have more than 300 uh 300 million of customer right now and the way that we are approaching the the the the fact of how to bring web to mainstream users is that we what we are trying to do is Ping something that is unique almost unique that is a phone number with a decentralized identity okay and then we are exploring the way that you can give and a new way of transaction of usability because I mean a phone number number everyone has a phone number and this is the big project that we have not only telica it's also the the camera is cameraa all the Telos together that we are facing this this solution that can bring all a massive users to the to the ecosystem and one of the things that some sometimes is hard to understand is that the talking about the centralization the centralization is the large Enterprise are used to talk with centralized Services centralized companies because sometimes we we need an a face H with to home to to talk with no I mean and and sometimes and the the challenge that we are approaching is that uh the fragmentation of the protocols uh so that is really important for us and and in telephonic especially to have a trustworthy players H in order to achieve this kind of super big projects Deo you want to add that yeah no I think it's a smart approach I think you got to take the Best of Both Worlds the pendulum can't swing too far to centralize and too far to decentralize it's got to be the best of both and because you've got issues as we articulated with smart contracts vulnerabilities you've got issues with a single Authority in charge and not everybody plays nice in the sandbox so I think trying to come up with that best security model and user interface model that meets The Best of Both Worlds and somehow balances out as the right approach well maybe I'm the uh the decentralized you know guy in the group here but I I think that you know the goal of the whole of all of web 3 and blockchain is to build a free Society you know have effectively um nobody in nobody no regulator regulator in charge of regulating the market the market regulates itself uh yes we so we've had a bunch of rug PS we've had a bunch of you know on the centralized side we've had a bunch of you know uh frauds but the goal is to get to a um blockchains that are that solve for those problems on their own so you so you can't have rug PS you have transparent you know assets backing things up and however the solutions are I I think we're not to pitch our project but I think that we're that's what we're doing trying to do is effectively uh every token has its own backing you can see what's in there so it's very transparent but more transparency more decentralization more security you know in it all those things wrapped together is building the free society that and sort of disintermediate governments over time um which is I think the to me anyway the objective of of building an abundant free Society I I think look I think that that's extremely aspirational and I don't disagree I just think that there's a lot of problems we have to solve or try to figure out how to solve from the security part but also I think from the insurance part too as well because there's got to be some level of security if something does happen if if I did fat finger something or if I did make a mistake or someone did something inappropriately there's got to be that that that Insurance layer that kind of gives Comfort because I don't think you're going to get Mass adoption um if we don't have that layer of security and insurance that I have a remedy to solve a problem if something does happen I mean what you what you mentioned and I think the point that we also have to think about is the uh decentralized the name only issue so the doo issue so a lot of projects claiming we are very decentralized but because they are not fully transparent you don't know who has who has the stakes in there so how how could we approach this how could like a fully decentralized web 3 infrastructure work how can it avoid being being actually centralized while calling itself decentralized is that what you mean no how can be truly decentralized well I you know if you have sufficient noes I mean some people even say Bitcoin is not that decentralized I mean it's the most decentralized I think we have right and it's a matter of grade and degree and you know adjusting to changes it's just markets you know you know when when someone comes along with a quantum computer to be the bitcoin's algorithm or bitcoin's uh reward structure people come as entrepreneurs and change that it's just it's um you know they're much markets are very fluid if they're allowed to work and they're more and more fluid if they're as they're more and more fluid as it feeds on itself whereas the governments the old traditional structures which are not you know thousands of years old it's only about four or 500 years of the nation state being the governing principle of of human society you know uh governments are quite quite heavy-handed and and you know regulation doesn't mean government it means you know other people regulating each other through this um you know there's a problem I will solve it and get the rewards from doing it as a profit motive or is just I feel great about it which is a profit unto itself um incentive system that's just naturally there as a part of society or part of the da one might say yeah to confirm Joe's point the whole point of crypto Revolution is the desire for decentralization decentralization where users are in full control of their own funds in a safe and secure decentralized manner that's how everything started obviously the Banks Banks don't don't work people gave their funds to a bank and there's no guarantee they're going to get it back now to also support dima's point the full decentralization as of right now doesn't work it doesn't work to as I mentioned previously 2022 $2 billion lost to fully decentralized platforms so if you follow the history we can see that centralization doesn't work starting with the first cryptocurrency exchange Mount go where people lost millions and millions of dollars they entrusted their funds to a centralized platform and they lost it now couple of years later we switched to a fully decentralized model we are seeing that full decentral ization as of right now doesn't work so the best change is a gradual change change doesn't that that happens overnight doesn't work because obviously decentralization as of right now doesn't work as well so the best approach is to take the best feature of centralization and decentralization and combine them into one platform and by doing that what we're going to do is basically we're going to give the users full control of their own funds in a safe and secure decentralized matter that's that's the most important thing so whatever happened to FTX could never happen again that's the most important thing but the second important thing is to make sure to support Dias point to make sure there's some level of centralization where if something goes wrong those people always have the remedy so maybe that's a good point right now to uh to address another issue because until now we've mostly talked about infrastructure in the sense of of technological Hardware of uh of programs however during the last years and especially we heard the talks about MAA here today um there has been worldwide efforts to create kind of a regulatory infrastructure for the whole system to avoid frauds to avoid uh decentralized and name only issues ETC so let's let's try the other way around can web 3 be built without regulation or further regulation so you know let's first maybe you know look at the version of decentralization then then then how do you regulate it properly I think both the things are important so so you know decentralization won't happen and is not it's just about focusing on technology that's the wrong approach if you keep thinking about which protocol has done what level of decentralization that's not going to solve this you have to think about how do you control the ownership ownership of the end user without controlling it that's the message we need to pass now regulations they will actually Define this so regulations are one version of governance but now the question is not how they are to be applied the question is where they have to be applied so are you going to apply them at the protocol level will you program it somewhere will you leave it to certain owners who would operate are certain certain you know specific operations on the chains or would you allow them to participate equally and yet govern so regulations are a framework which will have to fit in somewhere they may fit at the top level at the protocol level they may fit it you know at at a different level which can be you know an operating layer or they can fit at you know equivalent layer as as a user you know like you or me who would be operating and yet governing so this this regulation regulatory framework definition should come out in as well usually we talk about what should be the regulation but my point here is we should talk about how it is to be applied because if you if you pick up from the last point of decentralization and to the regulation the whole bridge is burnt the moment you apply regulation I mean from the decentralization perspective uh from Joe's Joe's perspective but the moment you make the regulation as a pillar under the bridge you're helping It Forward you're not burning it so that's that's you know how the regulations should be seen or a regulatory framework should come around okay yeah I think that I mean what three is uh is changing the Status Quo of many things I think and regulation sometimes is I mean is against this kind of decentralization that we are promoting uh but I think that uh I will talk about the the large Enterprise so and that can bring new new users to to this ecosystem and if we aim that we need to bring this kind of users so some regulation is needed no uh for instance uh in telica we are applying uh statements from Financial action task force who is an a company a Lobby that is creating from many years ago the first regulations before MAA so I mean it's something that large Enterprises are applying since I don't know a long time ago so I think that I mean regulation is needed if we want to push these corporate companies and these million of users into this ecosystem but that isn't that kind of the the thesis of the European Union or has been that good regulation that regulatory Clarity will attract crypto asset service providers in in the EU with ma but also then for the web 3 ecosystem so good regulation could be kind of the attractive part for for Europe right now I mean we see the unclarity in the US partly um which why a lot of the companies are coming to Europe right now or looking into the possibility so how do you how do you see that could web 3 regulation attract more businesses well look regulation is a tricky thing I think we all want mass adob mass adoption in this space and you're not going to get Mass adoption without a regulatory framework somehow someway now you could have overregulation which makes it extremely burdensome and that's why it's beneficial to see what's happening in Singapore and in Hong Kong and in Dubai and in some instances in the UK that there's an actual dialogue going on with the with the crypto community and the digital asset community and The Regulators to find out what might be fair and and useful that's not happening in the States today at all uh unfortunately because you can get overregulation there needs to be some aspect of Regulation and there needs to be a dialogue in order to come up with proper regulation because again they're going to take the view of how do I protect the individual consumer how do I protect prot the individual investor um does it get down to every smart contract has a regulatory framework and has a security framework and and if it doesn't follow that framework it doesn't comply with regulatory standards and it can't be implemented so it could go it could go overboard but that's why you have to have a dialogue to understand where is the best for the regulatory framework and how will it best for Mass adoption so um your regulation on can only be you know can only be done by someone that's in power right so you know Uber came along and disintermediated the tax mafias or or monopolies or you know lenses in different countries all at once I used to work at a a Libertarian law firm called The Institute for justice in the US and one of the things we litigated for was taxi drivers who couldn't get a license to practice the profession free of arbitrary government interference and we read that into the 14th Amendment the right to economic Liberty wasn't written there but we we shopped it around lost lost lost one one win one case and then try to you get to the Circuit Court it was very slow we did that for Barbers and taxi taxi drivers and Undertakers and different kinds of things and uh whole public rallies but that's because they had the power we had to we had to ask the court to give us the the power back you know give these entrepreneurs who just wanted to make a living the power back well Uber came and just okay if you have you have a car you need a ride that's it peer-to-peer and now the governments are trying to take that have been trying to take that back and various to various varying degrees of success in around the world but BNB you know it's all web 2 peer-to-peer but web 3 is peer-to-peer I mean crypto is peer-to-peer on steroids and web 3 is is you know son or very intertwined with crypto so if you if you peer-to-peer out the the ownership of things and ownership of yourself let's say you own yourself and you go public as yourself and you have shares of yourself and people own a steak and you you know only uh because you chose to share it with them and now it's publicly traded you know it's just it's a market that comes from the bottom up then there's no power to be to be uh to be doled out in a regulatory framework that is that can be then co-opted by an industry I mean you look you look in you know all over the world wherever there's regulation there's there's capture by the industry the people that are the biggest in that industry they capture that regulatory structure and they they use it to their own benefit it's just the nature of government it's the nature of Regulation so yeah maybe from getting from here to there it's it's this battle that governments are are are will fight back against you know the sort of you know web 3 Warriors that you know whatever the bottom up people that are trying to take take power um in the through this peer-to-peer structure but that ultimately that battle has to be lost by the by the structures that are centralized um and that's where we can sort of dissolve uh we're not there yet but I mean Bitcoin is a big jump forward ethereum is a big jump forward and all the things that are being built uh are attempts at steps forward some of a lot of a lot of failures I mean like you know you have 99% failure on the way to success but there's some successes and those things are the ones that stay and become become adopted by everybody so you know Bitcoin took a long time to to adoption I mean not a long time it's been what 14 15 years and but it's because it was solid you know it wasn't it's not that because it just got to get a bunch of users and then it fail it Flames out it's got solid infrastructure solid foundation people kind of came to it and found it so I think that's the way things will play out over time as well in web 3 generally Maybe bring question over you to py again uh because you you work for telica which is quite an established company you have to keep regulation and compliance maybe a little bit more in mind than a very small startup uh located out of out of Europe so what right now in your opinion is the biggest regulatory or compliance issue that web 3 is facing uh in in Europe for example yeah no I mean we are applying the MAA I mean for sure in know in all the the project that we are doing and one thing that we uh sometimes forget I mean what we are trying to do is with different Oracles we have a project for instance with chain link that we are trying to decentralize uh for instance the phone number verification and this is a an project that we are doing so what we what we are facing is to saving all the phone numbers so this is also data personal data and one thing that I mean we are facing and a situation that we are facing is gdpr for instance and sometimes uh we are really focused on MAA and all the regulation that uh that is now in Europe but for instance we are facing a lot of issues with uh how we are uh saving data in in this case with oracles uh with validator notes and we for instance it's something that we didn't expect and it's a big situation that we are now facing the gdpr here in Europe Europe so so maybe a leading question over to you Adnan um do you think that looking at the Pace in the crypto sector and the web 3 sector that regulation can ever keep up because you mentioned ideas of like uh we we don't need to focus on decentralization versus centralization hybrid is the way to go um creating creating new Frameworks and ideas which Regulators then have to keep up with um in a few years so do you think that will ever be the case that they can keep up with it or is it always the regulator running behind the Innovative pace of web 3 infrastructure well regulation in the crypto industry is a very sensitive issue we have to understand how the crypto started that's what we have to understand it wasn't supported by the governments it wasn't supported by the Banks all of those people who wanted to be free from the governments people who wanted who were screwed screwed up by the Banks they were firmly supporting crypto okay now after all this after we've seen that crypto is here to stay governments and Banks they want to join in okay so just couple of years ago to give you an example JP Morgan one of the biggest banks in the world they see Jamie Diamond they he openly stated that Bitcoin is fraud okay he's not the only one obviously other governments other other Banks they were firmly against Bitcoin they were firmly against crypto right now A couple of years later the picture is different JP Morgan they have their own trading desk they have blockchain pattern a lot of blockchain pattern in their name and on top of that they have their own cryptocurrency so that tells you everything obviously crypto is here to stay now since they are here they want to basically kick all of those little people down and take over the the thing is you know that's not going to work that's not going to work because obviously those people who supported Bitcoin and cryptocurrency in the beginning they are still here the only issue is the full decentralization doesn't work we've seen that it doesn't work so to make the regulation work we have to take the hybrid approach we have to understand at what level do we have to regulate do we have to regulate at the user level do we have to regulate at the platform level or do we have to find some kind of way in the middle to regulate so that's going to be a very very tricky and very complex way to to do so what is the way out of this I mean it it's complex no matter what but uh what what are some potential ways that that you maybe see us going forward and also us as an industry maturing enough to say like hey uh we provide Solutions and we don't say uh a confr confrontative approach towards the regulator but say we can provide XY z a solution hybrid solution whatever other solution um where where do where do we go from here to build a solid infrastructure and to create this web 3 that you that you mentioned at the beginning when as I mentioned earlier uh we've seen centralization doesn't work it doesn't work whatever happened to FTX is not going to stop it's it's not the first exchange or first centralized platform that misappropriated users funds it's not going to be the last it's going to keep happening full decentralization doesn't work as well we we have the issues with slippage we have the issues with trust a lot of people actually misusing those fully decentralized platforms and well those well-intentioned people who are trying to use those fully decentralized platform they get disappointed after they get scammed so the best approach is actually to take the hybrid approach take the best features of centralization and decentralization and combine them into one platform okay but other approaches because okay we we've heard the hybrid approach but uh what does the rest of the panel think is that full agreement on hybrid approaches the only one or do you have other solutions to to bring the space forward to also think about the the web 3 infrastructure in a broader sense can maybe so this this practically goes beyond you know hybrid we have to stop focusing upon you know hybrid as a keyword because if you look at how the governance or you know control is driven it is driven from top to bottom specifically in web 3 now top to bottom if you start consolidating you know the bottom it is individual user then a pack of users and then you know a lot many users but then at the top you have a network so hybrid approach means uh you know this this question is not about is it the only approach or there are many approaches the ultimate approach is about how do you let some people Define what they want and then design something or a solution around what they want and then take it to the top so it's like the early days of web3 I remember people used to say network of networks I think Joe would agree you know poka itself is a network of networks and you know parach chains are part of it nowaday we you know we we're trying to create rollups op stack ZK rollups four generation fifth generation chains are coming if you would focus on one thing they're trying to do is to create that small pack where governance can happen where regulations can be driven it's it's like if I if you ask me to control 1 million people here it's impossible how do I do that so regulations you cannot throw them in the air on that banner and say regulated is safe you got to actually design a model now how do you design a model so I'm not saying it's hybrid but I'm saying you have to start from bottom up which means you have to let people connect in the network and Define a smallish Network and then derive the small Network into a bigger one with certain definitions within the bounds of it and when you do so you are defining regulations into them and so this this regulation thing is is very complicated very sensitive that's all right at the same time it's overhyped you just have to think that you allow you're allowing certain people to decide what they want that is what is regulation and then some parties coming in and helping them achieve that that is regulation that's it we want regulation because you won't put a dime on something which you don't control you don't own let alone grow you won't get back so you want regulations that's for sure we want it too everybody wants it because risk is nobody risk is what nobody wants so you want regulations now you start from bottoms and you you define the set of rules between some people and then you let those people Define more rules on how they would want to communicate upwards I'll I'll try to you know Define it in a very technical way you know how ZK rollups are seen today they say that you can create your own smallish network of certain stakeholders maybe you know some some banks can come in some financial institutions come can come in maybe some other Enterprises come in they create their own rollups and then they push some proof outside on top of ethereum you know the Legacy uh you know definitions of decentralized ization ethereums of the world and others so when you do so you allow somebody to come in and validate everything and decide if it is right or not without giving them the data which means regulations are good you can actually bring them in you do not have to shy away from that but again when I'm saying so I'm Falling Towards or leaning towards the hybrid model because this is the hybrid model I have my own network and ethereum is a very big Network I'm trying to let somebody come in regulate everything decide validate everything on ethereum which I've done on my network yet not allowing them to have all the data so I'm I'm giving them the right to change things for better for me and others but not giving them the data so all right then maybe let's let's continue a little bit uh away from the regulatory aspect of infrastructure again so what areas of web 3 infrastructure are you keeping an a close eye on at the moment where where's where's the hot stuff that's being built right now um what are you looking for in the future what's what's happening right now give us an insight into your very different perspectives maybe of uh what you keep track of at the moment Joe so uh what I noticed this morning is that nearly all of the the panels or the talks uh use the word tokenization or tokenizing things um which you know we start we started working on unit unit Network um you know the idea of it was maybe six or seven years ago and people would not yeah even people that were very high up at ethereum or you know polka dot like yeah you know there not going to be the bunch of token to every billions of tokens there's already 10,000 that's too many well it's sort of a it's it's a a tremendous shift I mean it's a really a sea a sea change in that sort of um Trend that the way way people are seeing things but they're still bored by it you know this morning I people are to they're talking about tokenizing things that are already digital you have stocks and bonds and real EST know reats you know Commodities and they're kind of just okay I guess we're doing this at our bank but what's the benefit of it maybe we get some operational efficiencies but it's not a it's not a dramatic change that they're even talking about really um on the other hand if you're tokenizing things that are IL liquid like a piece of real estate or a collectible car or you know um or a whiskey bottle or something people are doing those things with nfts okay I mean now you have this this token but it it says you own this thing but unless you go to a government or someone that holds that and they say yeah yeah this that means you own have the deed to this real estate it really doesn't have give you the real estate so it's this connection between digital things digital assets and real world assets that's the big bridge that I think needs to needs to be and is going to be um merged together in a very powerful way that will really Kickstart Mass adoption of crypto and blockchain uh by the regular person of the world as I mentioned earlier the biggest two applications are openc and Unis Swap and there's something like on the order of 20 to 30,000 you know users per per day and it's it's nothing so you know look at Facebook or apple or or Amazon um it's just it's not even on the same ballpark so that when you can bring yourself you know like your your your brand you people bring it to social media now they have an Instagram account or a Tik Tok account um and they try to get a bunch of followers and they're building their brand effectively they even that's the terminology people use when you can take that brand and have it be yours but also liquid like a like you go public like a stock or you know might one might say um that will be a really big uh Trend to follow and and you'll hear about it I think in the in the coming few years people because it'll just catch fire people have a reason to want to use blockchain applications so we got tokenization what other things are you keeping an eye on on your case for instance we are at the Forefront to create the first decentralized Telco Network in Mexico we have an approval concept for instance that the people can share the W the Wi-Fi and then if you have a SIM card or mov star in Mexico and the the the data the connection of the Wi-Fi is better than what mobar is providing so then you can change the the SIM card is changing the data automatically and then the person who is sharing the the Wi-Fi is receiving uh tokens in the case that we are doing a partnership with helium and this is a way that we are changing totally the the way that Telco is working and and here for instance uh regul I mean it's an example of how the regulation is important because for instance uh without MAA is not possible to to extend this kind of new TCO that we are doing because we cannot create a new economy from the scratch with this kind of telecommunications Network um and this is why we we are now uh creating this this new Delco in Mexico Brazil and now we are going to have the first proof of concept in in Europe as well I agree with uh both these guys and and Joe I I I definitely think the things that I'm looking at are real world assets and tokenization of real world assets um also seeing um how do you how do you uh Bridge um you know I think that's going to be a key thing from the from from monitoring that regulating that Trading and what's the regulatory landscape of those things um I think are going to be are going to be key and I think will drive the market I think the other positive things that we're keeping an eye on is what's really going to happen now with uh the ETF approvals with Bitcoin and ethereum and then how far does it go post post those two particular protocols uh and then again it's just mostly the elimination and the fragmentation of this everchanging space and how do you make it easy for the end user to to to get to use this and and and get get to the the yield product that they want or the lending product that they want in order for them to properly earn in a secure way well in general I could tell you this all of those projects that were developing during the bear times during the times one of the one of the bigger biggest bare markets in the history of crypto all of those projects they were developing during that time when there is no funds all of those projects actually has a great potential all of them and some of those projects I could tell you this they are going to be the next Amazon next Microsoft next apple in the crypto industry and they're going to be obviously a few of them and one of the reasons for that is obviously it's it's very easy to work and develop during the bull markets it's easy to work when based on a simple white paper somebody some of the investors they they give you $10 million and based on that obviously you can work couple of years and once the money runs out there's no more passion no more passion that's why there's over 26,000 projects in the crypto space I could tell you this 99% of those projects will fail 99% of them and that's why all of those projects that survive this longest crypto winter they they are going to S succeed without any doubt all right so we we're nearing the end of our panel discussion we have five more minutes and uh adding to to what Anan just said so you said 99% are going to fail so uh imagine we will meet here at the EBC in 5 years so in 2028 um what infrastructure of web 3 will we talk about Adan and then let's uh do the full circle back to demo well as I stated previously without any doubt it's going to be a hybrid approach it's going to be a hybrid approach and this is the reason why we've seen centralization doesn't work we've also seen decentralization doesn't work so the most important thing is give the user the full control of their own funds in a safe and secure decentralized manner that is the most important thing so by giving them that they're not going to be whatever happened to FDX can never happen again but at the same time we have to find a way to give them a centralized trading experience and the best way to do that is to take the hybrid approach thank you tati yeah I think sometimes we I mean we need to to ask I mean what they want I mean the the end user if they want a fullish in I they want a fully decentralize if they want a hybrid I mean we have a million of customers that uh we need to understand what they really want and then to create new products with technology because we we we need to to understand that blockchain is technology so I think that a good balance between centralized decentralized and a good worldwide regulatory uh aspects that can provide uh some decentralized technology is the the way to go 5 years 5 years years EBC I believe 5 years later we'll have blockchain as an inherent part of our lives where you know everything is so obvious the next payment you're doing is blockchain enabled the next message you're sending is blockchain enabled the next communication you're having is blockchain enabled it'll become so obvious that you won't even talk about it I don't want to be here 5 years later talking about it do we talk about cloud computing anymore do we talk about how internet banking works anymore so I want to be here and not talking about about blockchain at all I wanted it to be so obvious to our lives that we live it don't talk about it I like that Vision that's good uh the network State I think is what's coming you know BAGI um some of you may have heard of him so the uh this concept of communities that are that are non uh physical non um Geographic we basically countries that don't need a physical space uh I think that that will take root I mean we have groups on on social media that are kind of people just join in and they can kind of talk there but when you when you have something in the middle that you can kind of grab on to this is yours and you all have a piece of it then you have an incentive to like join together with the people that are in that community that you've decided to be a part of not just the one you were born into um and that will be a really powerful um positive feedback loop for people to be able to to come out of poverty come out of uh the situations that were born into that may or may not have been very equal or or Fair um so yeah that's I think we'll be well on the way in five years to that reality not all the way but but pretty but making big Pro uh big strides yeah all these guys made great points I think it's uh hopefully we'll hear five years ago and no one knows whether we're accessing the Bitcoin Network or something that's buil on the ethereum network or the polka dot Network it's just going to work um you're just going to access uh what you need to do via some Biometrics your your phone number or or an email address and some two- Factor biometric authentication and you're going to move money you're going to pay for something you're going to buy something and you don't know if it's going to be on the Bitcoin blockchain or the ethereum blockchain or the polka dot pair of chains it's just going to be there and work and that's kind of what we're striving for all right so uh first of all thank you very much to the panelists I would say a big round of applause for our panelists and with that I say uh thank you uh hopefully see you not in 5 years but uh next year and uh with this uh I give over to our moderator again thank you