Ethereum Swarm - Swarm Beta Event - Panel Swarm & Enterprise — unlocking fair data economy

um next up we're gonna have a little panel which is always fun because it's a lot of people hopefully not talking um um obviously it is like at the same time but they will be moderated by antonio gonzalo i hope i pronounced this correctly antonio is a tech entrepreneur and was working in telefonica i think that's the spanish telephone operator he was working in telefonica's r d department for 10 years he's running product management for emerging technologies and is now managing operations at swarm and he also runs the ethereum community in madrid and that's my favorite destination except for my home in antwerp so antonio i'm so happy to at least be a little bit in madrid by hearing you talk so please take it away with the panel thank you so much michelle well first of all i would like to thank church representative paper and kudos to all the contributors to make that a reality um so today's panel i will be to talk about with some brave visioners who are using already swarm to unlock a fair data economy businesses and applications in the application world you've just heard some beautiful talks about data uh and some amazing demos but the starting point to really make an impact visible is here in applications in real use cases and the application and making it reality in the real world and and this is a path that well we all have to walk through and and well so this is why we are creating this working group called enterprise uh swarm enterprise hub to collaborate and and push further together so this afternoon i'm delighted to present you a panel of of uh four participants to talk about all this i will uh introduce them in alphabetical order because it's always fair which is first of all we i'd like to introduce alexander partin which is the chief privacy council of midhub working on the project of building an ssi platform member of international association of privacy professionals and 15 years experience in legal profession alexander are you there yes i'm here hi hi colleagues hello uh we have as we have as well church athlean who just you just saw with the background in statistics enabling thread at economy on the data fund project since it's its inception he's also part of the research efforts in the swarm team church hello hi hello we have all as well danic factors on factory sun ceo and co-founder of at scale out creating a federated and decentralized machine learning system and recipient by the way of one of our first grants hello daniel hello good to be here nice to have you here and finally last but not least we have dixon sue uh who is a software engineer at fujitsu limited chief evangelist of personium which is the only open source personal data store platform in japan and currently he's leading the global my data movement with fujitsu hello dixon nice to have you here and thank you for the effort thank you guys it's already a bit late over there okay so first and foremost and so everybody has a here's a bit more of you i would like you to to ask each participant for a brief description of the project you're working on and how do you using swarm to help her achieve your objectives so um dixon since you're on the screen if you want to start for instance yes um yes you just announced that i work for petition and the personnel here it's the open source product that uh created by fujitsu and we're asking for people who can help us out and basically we provide the proof of concept for clinics and like financial background or advertising industry like huge industry in in in japan and also currently we are kind of working with vastu group in helsinki of project in in the cedar park singing project and we think that swamp because we don't want to create all the things uh reinvent the views so um with swamp they can like we can kind of achieve storage interoperability quickly so instead of doing our own stuff we can do storage and give all the things to swarm and then we can kind of concentrate on permission management on the pds and also i think it aligned with the my data operators uh ideas that uh it has to be interpretable with all different levels so um we we will kind of off shoulder our development to swarm so that it will take care of itself and then we kind of concentrate only on the part that we're good at like permissions and also building the infrastructure and everything else so thank you for inviting me sure thank you pleasure that's all thank you daniel if you want to keep on with the talk yeah sure so we are in machine learning and machine learning is really about learning from data so the problem we're working with is that most companies they cannot use the data they already have um mainly their privacy concerns um there are also regulatory constraints that we'll probably talk more about and there are so many practical issues like uh like just bandwidth or network access or many other things so we are developing a solution for federated learning and in federated learning what you do is you move the training or machine learning models to where the data is so you avoid collecting all data in one place and this solves what we usually call the data access challenge in ai and we're using this technology today in companies such as astrazeneca we're working with ge healthcare that is now called sativa and with swiss airlines as well and what we're working towards is really about enabling machine learning i would say in a web 3 world where compute and data is distributed so and the first problem where we are using swarm right now is to enable trust and collaboration in something we call federated learning alliances and that is how do you get different participants together to collaborate even if they don't maybe fully trust each other and so the the path that we're going towards right now sort of the least resistance is to use open source software so that everyone can audit code fully but then we're also using swarm-based audit trails so that everyone can fully follow the process of training one of these collaborative machine learning models so that there is a there's a really an audit trail or a track record of everything that happened even if everyone does not have full insight into the training process of these machine learning models um so that's sort of where we are right now and then we're moving towards like more and more decentralized system very interesting i got a question for you but i'll hopefully for that afterwards which is like not just one but that's all right uh so then alexander please if you want to uh speak about midhab and what what's its mission and how do you use swarm please uh yeah thank you so basically a same as swarm uh midha platform aims at bringing back to the person the real control over his or her personal data and in such a way that the person has a high quality and safe tool to provide the companies with the personal data on a temporary basis for different purposes the mid hub main concept i mean the user the user's control over the personal data and its secure processing actually became possible only with the development of blockchain smart contracts cryptography and in particular swarm as a secure and reliable decentralized storage of personal data you know build meetup on the basis of trust and transparency so the search code of for all our key platform applications will be actually open after the public data and it will be open for analysis and collaboration but at the same time the platform participants won't need to rely on trust only as the smart contracts will guarantee on our platform that all the processes work in accordance with rules one of the feature of midhub would be that the personal data which were uploaded to meet hub by the users will actually be verified by the special validators and this also should increase the level of trust to this data from the companies which obtain consent from the users for its processing and actually besides it's also to solve the kyc task for the companies and users in a fair secure and more efficient way you know as a lawyer and privacy council i should say that the platform famous swarm is developed with the privacy by design principle uh in mind meaning that we closely look on compliance with personal data rules and then particularly gdpr and we aim at building a decentralized global system of document management which is free from third-party inbox and is entrusted with blockchain technology and digital signatures thanks very cool and finally uh chert if you'd like to present this briefly what data found is and we do this the game of the goal of the project sure we're muted yes hi hello thank you so i think uh the data fund was already presented at uh previous uh events if i'm not mistaken so basically we're also all about uh privacy uh and uh enabling uh similar things as all the rest of the projects uh we also contributed uh with code to the uh society with the further projects and uh we are avid supporters of the initiative so yeah cool thank you so much okay so let's talk about let's talk about business um i'm sure you've already heard the sentence if you know well just michelle just started to talk with that if you're not paying you're the product being sold uh this is a problem of incentives again as we as we all know we have been selling our data our privacy basically our freedom very cheap arguably very cheap to a few companies and the paradigm has become so big that we actually consciously have to make efforts to avoid the interact so the question is are business models sustainable without our data being taken from us to put it another way how can a small app how can a small developer create a strategic advantage with advantage with data against behemoths such as google or facebook who wants to who wants us to to answer this how do our surroundings about business business models maybe i could just start with this so um there's an initiative of the european union uh actually the european has a european union has a data strategic strategy which was released the document was released at the beginning of this year and the data strategy is talking about data spaces so the european union imagines that this vertical data space will be established for example one of them will be a skills data space one of them will be a health data space and so on and uh in these data spaces data will will flow freely uh as is as is labor and materials flowing through the united european union you know the same principle would apply and anyone could i mean not anyone but companies could join and leverage the data in there uh to to bootstrap this equal opportunity for all companies so i think this is an idea that we have to uh that we have to embrace uh they have given us a hand and we have to enable this uh with swarm swarm is of course the perfect flat platform to do this uh i believe and um maybe i can now stop and give someone else an opportunity to talk thank you thanks thanks sir yes daniel yeah so i can jump in and i absolutely think that it's possible to find business models without having our data taken from us um so and it's in a way that's that's really how we approach this so what we are doing is we're enabling how you really monetize learnings of data not actually selling the data itself so that's kind of one path that's possible to take that's what we're doing but i also don't think that it's kind it's quite important to think that it's not viable to think that i i can create a small app or as a private person i will be able to monetize my data and like facebook or google they should give me a lot of money because for in those cases each for us individually there is not that much data for each of us so i think that what we might land in so where data maybe covers the infra infrastructure costs that's maybe where we are in some of these like mass market applications not maybe that we should uh think or or expect to be rich from like the the personal data that we're generating if we're not generating personal data in a small niche that has a really high potential value and then the question is how do we monetize or or also take part of that value without selling all of our data or selling all of ourselves that way so that's something to think about and yeah and my yesterday once small last thing and that also how is how do we get started so i don't think a small app developer should go out and start to try to compete with google like even if tick tock did that but what we should do is maybe find a niche where you don't have to go head to head at least not initially you have to find something else to start with and then you can maybe move on as you build a much more like bigger product or bigger user base and also and maybe generate larger potential base of learnings if it's not a dodger potential base of data so that's yeah that's our and interpretability is at the heart of all that i can imagine yeah absolutely interoperability and also infrastructure because if so the less infrastructure the less time and effort you have to spend on like rebuilding all the tooling again and again that's also like a huge driver for innovation if you just can focus on the sort of the value layer on top you don't have to build all the infrastructure layers so there's also yes you're shortening the development time and also the possibility to create new models absolutely that's always a pain actually this is the the beauty of the concept that the swarm has enabled the zero coast hosting that is a that is a this really breakthrough it's it's something that is not really easy to grasp at the beginning but the idea of the you have an economic model for a developer where the infrastructure generates revenues not costs is something uh that we haven't seen yet actually i haven't seen yet so what do you think for developers for people who want to what what sort of opportunity did this does that open the zero ghost hosting and i'm asking for the four review maybe i will point i will start pointing maybe maybe dixon who are actually uh putting some especially special uh highlight on that for personium how do you how do you see the the sewer coast hosting uh opening opportunities i think uh basically it's um swarm help developer to do something without big investment in the first place right so everyone can have just a smaller swarm be not started and then afterwards they can build up whatever they have and also um it's kind of kind of connected to whatever the first question you asked to because um um initially we cannot just go in and then build swarm look for everyone um the government has to build the infrastructure first uh to promote the personal data store or personal data so that um tax money will be spent to provide the whole infrastructure first and then the citizen will start to using this kind of like idea of keeping the data on to personal data store and then try to reuse it with uh interesting service or interesting applications so with the zero cost hosting um like it helps the developer to to concentrate on building interesting um services just to make good use of the um of the data but without selling it to someone else so then the user will keep on using it because it's good and then it will spread out to have like um flow bully that everyone will be using um things like decentralized swarm not that's what i think awesome you know actually seeing the demos what you've seen this afternoon i cannot see why it's not going to happen i mean i i see that already and and it's on its path to happen it's it's awesome okay so let's talk now about regulation and i would like to ask the participants because we have we are we're lucky to have a global penny through a global panel truly a global panel we are from different parts of the world and regulation is different uh all around the globe uh as chart mentioned before the eu is making some some specific efforts with data spaces trying to gather all the gdpr all that all those all the regulation is european but from the from other or other u3 that come from different parts of the world how do you how regulation is treating data in russia in japan or anywhere in the u.s for instance well yeah i think i would start uh as a lawyer so basically you know my view is that the gdpr which is the european loan protection of the personal data is currently the most advanced uh and uh mostly it's because gdpr puts the person in the center of its interest the data subject and uh that's why actually like the project i'm working on the meetha project the swarm in the white paper we analyzed the gdpr um as the reference point of the law uh and also you know like coming back to the first question why the uh like behind us like google facebook can we actually fight and win over them i think yes because currently uh the people think that giving away the personal data is okay but actually the gdpr and most of the laws say is completely different thing the company should process the data only as far as a as it needs to be and it's just i mean the status quo the current status quo that companies simply skip this question so as soon as we implemented using a technology like swarm uh it will actually be the new reality and i'm looking forward to this dream protocol which the mid hub team was also collaborating on uh i think it should bring the trailer down awesome yeah that's true thank you thank you alexander uh jeff i think i've heard that japan is leading the field in this regulation on so-called information banking industry uh is a tradition how do you see it evolve um like basically in japan we don't have any heavy punishment um most of the time it's just a slap on the hand that like the company when they when they do something wrong they will be maybe out of business for a few weeks and then they can restart their business last time we have some company uh who's selling analyzed data about um job hunters and then they will show them if we show to the employers that this guy will be most likely to turn down your your your your offer so then um it will avoid the people of getting the offer from many employers um properly so but in the end the company just closed down for a few weeks and then it will start so um the thing would be like in japan we always copy the the laws from from europe and then u.s and when everything is almost ready then we launch our own uh law that customized into the japanese culture so and we basically with the information banking um initially it's kind of thing of serving the data and then and then and then telling the citizen that they can make money or whatever but now um it has been there for almost two years but uh we don't see any like big movement anymore so then this citizen has already forget about making money by selling that data so um recently there's been a kind of momentum that the municipal uh will create service to actually um improve the well-being of the citizens so they're kind of turning their solutions to the um the european way and also i heard that the guy who um not the guy the the organization who created the uh the certificate for the information banking they're trying to learn something from the monitor operators and then they're trying to um cooperate and then to produce some kind of better solutions and then learning from the um european gdpr and also my data so definitely um from from asia's point of view we always like try to learn things and then try to like do customizations so so right right now even though we're leading the the idea of business model of information banking but um still everything should be everything is still important from the europe and especially with the eu data strategy so that's from what i see thank you so much okay so unfortunately i think we have run out of time um so i would like to thank all your participants for for this brief talk it was was really insightful to hear you talk about how you uh implement swarm into your into your your products and let's go heads back to michelle thank you so much thank you thank you thanks well thank you thank you thank you for this international team and thank you antonio and i can't wait to see you in madrid when this whole fire resting is over um i'm sure we can have some really great tapas somewhere another el noviciado counter thank you so much um so he with this we can round up our enterprise um