Money is Becoming Software and Corporate Treasury is Moving Onchain | EBC12

Welcome to our panel on how money is becoming software and corporate treasury is moving on-chain. My name is Sasha Duprat. I'm the head of tokenization at Danska Bank, and yes, I'm very happy to be here today. You know, when I was asked to be a moderator, they kindly let me choose the panel I wanted to moderate. Which I think is really nice, and I chose this panel, um, this time panel, um, this time , because I think the topic is very interesting and, um topic is very interesting and, um , also very relevant these days.

Another reason was the panel that is here with me today. I think we have a great mix of experts here. I'm very excited to moderate this panel, but before we begin, I want to give you a chance to introduce myself. Maybe let's just go from left to right and start with you, Mark. Greetings.

Yes. Hmm, hello everyone. My name is Mark Zalan. I am the CEO of Go Mining. We're, um, in the top 10 Bitcoin miners by commercial hashrate, um, um, in the world right now.

Um, and the reason I'm here is to talk about Go BTC Pay, our instant bitcoin confirmation protocol that we launched, uh, in May of this year. Thank you. Yes. Hi, I'm Jeff. I am part of the market development team at Tempo.

Uh, Tempo is a first-level blockchain that was, uh, incubated by Stripe and, uh, and Paradigm. And we, uh, aim to build a blockchain for real-world use cases. Uh, we work a lot with financial institutions and, yeah, yeah, corporations. Uh, we're very happy to share what we heard from them today. Hello everyone and thank you for inviting us.

I'm very happy to be here today. I'm Osan, and I'm leading our efforts to go to market for any stablecoins, payments, uh, for the emu market at Coinbase. Uh, in practice, what this means is that, uh, we help banks, Fintex payment service providers, and large corporations, uh, integrate our stablecoin infrastructure into their stack. Hello everyone. My name is Anel Gomez.

I am the Sales Director at MIA in Utilla. Until we provide enterprise-grade storage infrastructure for many fintechs, payment organizations, banks around the world, and so around the world, and so , certainly, that's a theme that we see, you know, the status quo for many financial institutions today. Very happy to be here. Thank you, guys. Glad to welcome you.

I am very happy. Um, let's get started. Um, you know, the topic of the panel is quite broad. We're talking about how money becomes software. What does this even mean?

Um, you know, on the one hand, it means we have new forms of money that are digital, that are online, it could be stablecoins, but it could also be tokenized deposits or even central bank money. And on the other hand bank money. And on the other hand , it means that, uh, money is becoming programmable, which means we can automate certain processes. But before we get too deep, I want to make sure everyone here has a common understanding of what we're talking about. Um, maybe Oan, could you give us a brief introduction to what electronic money is?

I mentioned some buzzwords like stablecoins and tokenized deposits. What is this? Yes, of course. Um, electronic money, tokenized deposits, stablecoins–these are just different ways to put traditional money, um, into a digital format. Um, and they can serve different, um, purposes.

But when you look at, for example, a tokenized deposit, it's just a digital representation of, um, commercial bank money, um, on a distributed ledger, for the most part they're, um, issued by regulated licensed banks, and they operate on, um, networks or blockchains that are, um, closed or permissioned, um, and on the other hand, you'd have stablecoins, and that's definitely a topic I'd like to delve into today delve into today . Um, they can be released by any technology company, um, or smart smart contract protocols, but they are more or much more open, so there is much more interoperability. Um more interoperability. Um , basically, if you have an internet connection, um, you can create a wallet and start, um, buying, um, stablecoins and moving those assets, um, using this blockchain. Hmm, I think it's blockchain.

Hmm, I think it's also extremely interesting extremely interesting to explore what you can do with it. You can access a decentralized application, and when you think about decentralized finance, for example, if you want to borrow, lend, trade assets on-chain, you can use stablecoins as collateral. But in collateral. But in any case, even if they serve different purposes, they have one, I would say have one, I would say , or have a common positive aspect, which is that they can move assets faster, settle assets faster, and in general, it's, you know, transfers, cross-payments - all of this will become more efficient, more cost- effective and more transparent. And that's what we're looking at at Coinbase to make sure we can improve the traditional financial system as it is today.

Sounds very cool. You've already mentioned a lot of interesting use cases, but maybe we can go back a bit and I also want to have stablecoins. So, what do I need to do? How can I get stable coins? Andril, maybe you have an idea of what exactly the basics I need to get a stable coin at all.

Yes, of course. I mean, it all starts with your wallet or storage infrastructure. This is something like a basic requirement. Um, you know, these days there should be corporate standards for this wallet architecture. You can't expect a bank or corporation to write a 20- to write a 20- word opening phrase on a piece of paper, right?

So, um, most storage models today involve some form of, um, multi-party computing, or a way of distributing, um, and removing, um, unilateral risk from systems. Um, and depending on regulatory requirements, you might need, um, an HSM or hardware model to have the physical security aspect as well. Of course, we already live in an era of regulated digital asset transactions. Therefore, compliance is critically important. Typically, storage also performs some orchestration and communication with some other necessary elements.

So, you will need a service provider that meets KYT requirements. You will need liquidity provision or, you know, sufficient liquidity to make this transaction happen. So, I would say that this is a standard that we see everywhere. And then, depending on how complex you want to get, you can start talking about DeFi, about, uh, tokenization mechanisms, etc. Yes.

Yes. We will look at this in more detail. Do you want to add something? I just wanted to add I just wanted to add , uh, to your point. Uh , uh, to your point.

Uh , I, we don't want to, you know, scare people here in the room, in, you know, in general, in, uh you know, in general, in, uh , in the institutional, uh, industry. But basically, whether you have a new system, or a wallet solution for storage, or you can access liquidity, we've tried, I think, generally through our infrastructure, yours, ours at Coinbase, we're trying to replicate a lot of the things that happen in the institutional business, with offerings where you have roles and permissions to make sure that the whole system is robust, compliant, secure. And so when you're, uh, corporations, where you're large institutions, uh, it makes it very easy to get access to this system. Don't think this is something that could lead to an immediate loss of your assets or stablecoins. We're really building the infrastructure to make sure that you guys, and, uh, financial players, uh, in general, feel safe in this industry safe in this industry .

Yes, I like Yes, I like how you get into it right away . Uh, that's great. Uh, but we also need some form of DT network, right? To rephrase stablecoins, Jeff. Hmm, it doesn't really matter Hmm, it doesn't really matter which one you use, because I think most blockchains allow for stablecoin transfers.

I can send you stablecoins on many different blockchains. Hmm, does it even matter which one I use? Yes, I think it has. It's probably worth looking at how Tempo came about, and, uh, as you may have read, Stripe acquired a couple of crypto companies, Bridge, Prey, and others, and the feedback they got right away was that , uh, making payments on blockchain at scale is still a challenge. Someone generates an NFT, or a cascade of liquidations and Defys occurs, and your payments just wait and hang.

So, we started with Tempo like this: let's build a blockchain that, uh, makes payments fast and cheap, and, uh, and, and payments are, uh, first- class citizens. Uh, it doesn't matter what happens on the blockchain, the payments will go through, right? This is critically important. But over time, we started hearing that paying quickly and cheaply was probably hygiene. Now, uh, what financial institutions and corporations are asking us is how do we ensure privacy?

How do we ensure compliance, since it's still a payment that we're still covered under all the IML rules? How do we make sure we understand who we are dealing with? What tools, and that's what drives the agenda for fast pace. So, confidentiality is a very big issue. How do we ensure that we get the benefits of public blockchains with the liquidity of a developer ecosystem, but allow financial institutions to still process private payments?

An example of this is that we partner with a global payroll company. As you can imagine you can imagine , payroll is very confidential information. So, uh, this is the type of customer that comes, uh, to blockchain with privacy in mind. So, going back to your question, I would say that no, uh, I don't think it's a solved problem. We're still opening it up because, uh, corporations are raising, uh, challenges and questions that maybe didn't exist before.

Yes. Uh, we talked a lot about, uh, stablecoins, electronic money. I think, Mark, you want to add something. Er, because this doesn't just apply to stablecoins or electronic money in general. There are also very interesting crypto assets.

Uh, how do they fit into this system? Right. So our thesis is a little different when we think about money as software and when we think about the future of finance and where the future of payments is going. Uh, from our perspective, most of the specialized solutions, stablecoins, etc., are, uh, half-measures in terms of what the technology can offer.

Uh, we believe that, uh, Bitcoin, as the original, uh, original cryptocurrency and the original, uh, economic vehicle that gave rise to blockchain technology and which has a lion's share of 55-60% of the market value of assets in the crypto system, will ultimately prevail, uh, among most of these, uh, half-measures and, uh, specialized solutions that, uh, you know, 99.9% of the time look like technical solutions in search of problems. Um, in our opinion, the value in terms of liquidity, the value in terms of longevity, the value in terms of neutrality that Bitcoin offers, as opposed to any specialized solution or any specialized, uh, stablecoin, which, you know, I-uh, I-uh, I like to argue with people who think that, you know, we need hundreds, thousands or tens of thousands of stablecoins like they exist now like they exist now . Um, obviously that's not what's going to be needed in the long run. In the long term, maybe one or two, uh, stablecoins might find use, but, uh, in our opinion but, uh, in our opinion , the advantage of the existing market, uh, is Bitcoin.

And if Bitcoin can, uh, move to the next stage of growth from a means of saving to a means of payment, that will unlock the next surge of growth in terms of value creation in the Bitcoin ecosystem, and that's what we're focused on. This is precisely our thesis regarding long-term growth. And that's why , um, we spent a lot of effort on research and development to figure out the part of Bitcoin that was about instant payments, which was missing for the last 15 or 18 years, I would say. Hmm, and, um, yes, that's basically the thesis. So when people say that Bitcoin is just digital gold and not suitable for payments, you will disagree.

Well, we think that problem is solved because the argument of "not suitable for payments" was, um, a strong, very strong argument because Bitcoin was not really suitable for instant payments. You couldn't use Bitcoin to buy a cup of coffee. Well, as you know, in May- know, in May- June of this year, as soon as our solution hit the market, this problem was solved. So, you know, Bitcoin exists as a means of payment. Hmm, it will take time for it to gain a foothold in the market.

We recognize this. It will take time to change people's mindset from a means of saving to a means of payment. But ultimately, we think that when all the chips are down...Hmm, it's also a big advantage for the incumbent to have Bitcoin win the payments argument. Yes.

I would like to, um, um, add something. Um, if you will, one of the biggest pain points when we talk about Bitcoin versus stablecoins when it comes to payments is volatility, and the reason why people don't use assets like Bitcoin today for their payments is because they don't want to properly manage that volatility, so that's one of the reasons why I think it's going to be very difficult for Bitcoin to have that, um, impact when it comes to, um, long-term payments, um, because that's exactly what, um, corporate treasurers or payment service providers want to avoid, and we've done a lot of testing like that over the years, um, we have this feature for, um, a lot of payment service providers where they can essentially accept or, um, offer merchants the ability to accept stablecoins during online checkout. This is gaining momentum now, and before they had the ability to do this with Bitcoin and other assets, and they didn't get any momentum because when you hold Bitcoin or any other type of cryptocurrency asset, you just want to, you know, speculate long-term, and make sure that you can, you know, get a return on your investment, and so you're not going to spend, um, your Bitcoin or, you know, digital, um, money, for example, on living expenses. So I just wanted to dig into that and also, um, highlight the fact that there is actually a big use case for stablecoins today. I think the volume of stablecoins will reach over $200 billion in 2025, and it is growing rapidly.

It's growing, I think, by 700% every year. So for the first time, and I've been in EOS in this ecosystem for the last eight years, for the first time I think stablecoins have actually found their, um, application. So you would say that this is an argument against Bitcoin as a means of payment because it is volatile. I mean, it's a lot less volatile now, right? But it is still a volatile asset.

That's right. I'm not saying I'm against this asset as a means of payment. I'm just saying that there's a reality of what's happening in the market, and when we, you know, talk to a lot of institutional, uh, investors, or, uh, you know, corporations and so on, uh, they don't want to hold, uh, those kinds of assets today, uh, and they would rather use stablecoins. This is my only opinion. Yes.

Yes. I think that's a great idea, and it's a very fair idea, and historically volatility has been, uh volatility has been, uh , a major factor in terms of the existence of, uh, Bitcoin. But I think if we step back a little bit and, uh, look at the, um, three- look at the, um, three- or five-year, um, horizon, volatility, the decline in volatility over the last 5 years has been, you know, gigantic. And there's no reason to think that this trend won't continue, that over the next 3-5 years, Bitcoin, due to the amount of capital coming in, due to, uh coming in, due to, uh , adoption, etc., won't continue to decline in terms of volatility, first of all .

And secondly, I think you mentioned corporate treasuries, and I think, uh, that's a great idea, because if anyone knows how to manage currency volatility across currency pairs, it's corporate treasuries, so that's their bread and butter. And, and, uh, uh, exactly, uh, these are the people who know how to manage this every day how to manage this every day . Yes. Uh, you mentioned Treasury bonds. We will come back to this later.

Um, before that later. Um, before that , because we're already talking a lot about technology, and I think that very often at events like this, they only talk about technology. But, uh, I also want to talk about what exactly the problem we're trying to solve here is, right? Um, let's stick with payments for now. Um, maybe you can tell us something.

Is there a problem, is this just another trendy technology, or what problem are we trying to solve here? Yeah, you know, that's a great question. So, as I mentioned, this is not about stablecoins, I don't think it's, uh, you know, a buzzword. There are real use cases. Um, one of the biggest use cases today is cross-payment, right?

So when you're a company, uh, or a payment service provider, and you need to process payments from one country to another on behalf of a merchant or, uh, one of your customers, for the most part, if it's between certain corridors like Latin America or Asia and so on, it's going to take days, uh, to settle properly, and that's what we're trying to settle, uh, to resolve, uh, and to be fair, merchants, uh, or any companies that need to move, uh, money, uh, you know, across a border, uh, they don't really care about the technology behind it . They don't really care if, uh, their PSP uses stablecoins. They want their, uh, cash, digital cash, or stablecoins to move from point A to point B. Uh point A to point B. Uh , and, you know, as quickly as possible, uh, and, uh, you know, at a low, uh, cost low, uh, cost ; so the reason why Crossber payment companies are now getting involved in stablecoins is just to solve this specific problem.

They can simply offer slightly better solutions to their end users and vendors. And so what's going to happen in the market is that if you have one or two companies that offer these features, um, that are cheaper and faster, and you have other CrossBorder payment companies, banks or fintech banks or fintech companies that don't offer this today , then all these guys that implemented this technology faster and earlier are going to be the winners in the market, right? So you'll have a kind of competition between who can offer it, um, and, um, who can't, um. And so, yeah, I think, um, that's just, um, to do this, to do this much more efficiently much more efficiently , um, for all these, um, merchants and companies, to move money. Yes, maybe I could add, yes, I agree that CrossBorder agree that CrossBorder is absolutely the best use case, right?

Hmm, sometimes it's not even about the cost of transferring money, but about the ability to quickly move money around the clock, on weekends, and outside of business hours. Uh, that's exactly what drives adoption. Uh, and there are many forms of how corporations and financial institutions use stablecoins to make cross- make cross- payments using stablecoins. I think this is exactly the way they learn and begin to experience the benefits of digital money. Yes.

Right. Because once you get into stablecoins for moving money across borders, you find that you can also access digital assets, tokenized money market funds, much more efficiently much more efficiently than probably off-chain. So crowdsourcing is what brings companies to stablecoins, but I think once they get in, they get a taste and a benefit and start asking for more. Yes. Do you want to add something or what?

I think from a use case perspective, it's pretty clear. I mean, people have wanted to move economic value since trade emerged, probably tens of thousands of years ago. And the entire history of money and financial systems has been about trying to figure out how to do this faster, more efficiently, and more conveniently. So, the option to use it was always there. The question is, how do you solve it?

And how do you solve it in the most optimal way, balancing all the compromises. Hmm, and you know, again , not to get hung up on Bitcoin, but our thesis is that the stablecoin solutions stablecoin solutions , the specialized solutions that have emerged, will continue to inherit, um, they will take over some of the optimization from a technology perspective. So you can transfer bits quickly. But when you talk about stablecoins, all the economic problems, um, in terms of inflation and money printing and so on, will be inherited. So USDT has exactly the same problems as the US dollar.

Um, euro stablecoins will inherit the monetary policy of the European Central Bank. So, in terms of So, in terms of , can we use this today to move economic value economic value ? Yes. But is this good long-term preservation of economic value economic value ? I think it would be difficult for most people to say "yes" unequivocally.

So for us, as we look at where the evolution of payments and the evolution of money is going to go, it doesn't make sense to take these half steps in terms of half steps in terms of , you know, just transferring the same dollar or the same euro faster, but inheriting the same inflationary problems. For us, you know, Bitcoin has proven to be very resilient and deflationary throughout its lifetime. So why take half steps when you can take the full step and start moving to Bitcoin? And again , we don't think it's going to happen tomorrow. We don't think it will happen the day after tomorrow.

But given the speed given the speed at which Bitcoin has developed , I think it has exceeded all expectations. Therefore, we do not think that this is a 10- not think that this is a 10- year term. We think it's probably a three-year term, maybe 5 years. Hmm. Yes, you all made some very valid points here.

Um valid points here. Um , I like the approach that technology ultimately doesn't matter, right? Hmm, maybe even the asset doesn't matter the asset doesn't matter . Ultimately, it's about transferring value from point A to point B. And these days, that can be more complicated than most people think, right?

Because with Because with correspondent banks and money going through five going through five , six different places before it arrives, it can be very complicated. And you said there are different forms of doing this now with stablecoins. And I think one of the most common ones is stablecoin sandwiches, which means we both have a regular cash account. Only for the transfer we use a stablecoin, but as a result we receive cash in our account, but we skip, for example, some intermediaries, right? Um, I would like to ask you all, Anel, maybe you have a strong opinion on this.

Do you think it will always be like this, that we use a “ we use a “ sandwich” with stablecoins stablecoins , or is this just the first step to make it easier for corporations? Yeah, just to tie in with what, um, you mentioned earlier. This is certainly the status quo today for most organizations. They simply use stablecoins and digital assets as a means to an end. I don't think they considered the long-term implications of the stablecoin sandwich being inherently still tied to the traditional financial system.

And that still means it can be optimized even more, right? You still have to wait a few days for your settlement or your off-ramp transaction to hit your account, right? So we're definitely working with a lot of fintech a lot of fintech companies in Utila that are currently optimizing this flow. But some of the trends that we're seeing, especially here in Europe with financial institutions, is that eventually people will hold Treasury digital assets and Treasury stablecoins on their balance sheets, right ? So the settlements, at the end of the day, will be made on a localized stablecoin somewhere in another country.

So the last part of the leg might stop being fiat, but the asset will be, you know, an asset with end- customer value, but everything will stay on- chain, which really optimizes the full flow. Yeah, and yeah, I just wanted to add to that, and it's a great point where you, you know, say that basically, yeah, there's this infrastructure around stablecoins around stablecoins , and that's great, and we're making significant progress in the speed of that part of the blockchain. When it comes to the fiat part of the inflow and outflow, you have fiat money, you need to convert it into stablecoins. Uh, and then when you have stablecoins, you need to account for that in fiat currencies and then withdraw that fiat money from those two fiat pairs. It's super, super, at the moment it's not very good in terms of experience.

So we need to be very honest with each other about the current state of affairs. We are trying to figure something out. We have n't reached our goal yet. And I think once we can, um, have all these connections and all these integrations with, um, local currencies, if you can, for example, do, um, I don't know, directly convert USDC to local, um, currency, if you have a player that can do that tomorrow in 50, 100 countries, that player is going to be a big, um, big winner, um, in the market. So I think you're at UTLA, the same, um, on our side at Coinbase.

We're trying to, you know, work hard on these, um, features. Um, but yeah, it's not perfect yet yeah, it's not perfect yet , so we need to be aware of that. If I may, I absolutely do not think that a stablecoin sandwich is the ultimate goal. If you look at some of the payments, you know that stablecoins don't make sense at all, if you convert twice, you lose the entire fund that stablecoins bring in, but probably financial institutions and banks have to play their part so that we actually leave a percentage of stablecoins behind, because if you think about corporations, probably yes, there are companies like Utila and others that help corporations manage the treasury of stablecoins. But these are very unique cases, aren't they?

Most corporations expect the bank to help them anyway, right? And either abstract away from stablecoins entirely, or help your banks manage a stablecoin treasury, right? And, and this is what we hear. Yes, we've played around with stablecoins enough. This is great.

Let's do something do something real. And, and, and I think that's what's happening now. It will probably take some time for corporations to turn to bankers and say, “ say, “ Help us manage the treasury of stablecoins.” We trust you, you do a lot of, um, good work for us good work for us , but we need stable coins.” And I think that will be about the point where we finally start using stablecoins.

So you won't see corporate treasurers managing their own wallets and keys anytime soon, and no, we'd like them to , right? But as a former banker, I think I've talked to enough corporate treasurers to understand that they're probably going to be the last to implement, and yes, there are some people who are experimental, and sometimes the pain is so brutal, isn't it? Especially in emerging markets , they have to do this. Uh, but, uh, I think in more developed countries they'll probably wait until the banks can support it. And to get back to your questions to me, I see payments as the first stage, you need to get to stablecoins through settlement streams.

Um, but yeah, one way to solve all the problems with stablecoins is to also hold those stablecoins in your balance, for example. And you have ways to, um, you know, use that capital. And everything will be much more efficient, even corporate treasuries will be able to invest, um, for example, their funds for example, their funds without constantly returning to fiat currencies. So there are many options today when you have stablecoin balances. You can start generating revenue if you, you know, move to blockchain.

You may generate certain rewards depending on your jurisdiction. This is not something that is allowed under Mika's law, but, you know, in many other countries this is something you can do. And also today you can invest in tokenized money market funds, and I just wanted to use this to, you know, highlight one cool example or cool use case that we're working on with Coinbase and Coinbase payments. Um, this actually enables investors, institutional investors, and corporate treasure holders to subscribe and redeem assets in tokenized money market funds directly using stablecoins, and they can do so today. This is through a company, we have a European champion called Spyco, so today any investors in Europe can invest directly in this US regulated stablecoin fund, and we provide the infrastructure behind it.

Yes, it's not mature enough yet, but there is significant progress but there is significant progress , and it's not just an experiment. I disagree with this . We see that certain flows are starting to occur regarding these products. Yes. Look at what's happening in retail, right?

A year ago, everyone was saying, "Why would I use stablecoins to pay contractors?" They have to pay all these fees. Now you see that the deal is paying off all over the world. Contractors hold stablecoins, invest them, and earn interest through designated markets and money market funds. Uh, they spent money on cryptocurrency with stablecoins.

They really don't need to ever drop any money, do they? So, it's already in retail. Uh, yeah, at some point it's going to reach corporations, right? They will benefit from everything that stablecoins offer stablecoins offer , and not even from stablecoins, just on-chain in general, and retail was faster there, but it will definitely reach corporations, yes, Mark, I understand what you want to add. I'm just being mindful of the time, because I know we want to move on to a future, um, promising topic, but let me quickly offer a slightly different perspective.

Another way to think about the stablecoin sandwich is, uh, as a great example of, uh, how, how, you know, promising, futuristic technology is being tried to, um, retrofit back into, um, very bad financial processes. And, you know, only a banker would think that, uh, double conversion double conversion , where the bank, where the bank fees for conversion, is something valuable. Um, you know, if you take a step back and think about it, it's actually a mockery of the potential that blockchain technology offers, doing, you know, these multiple conversions back and conversions back and forth. And I don't think anyone who is engaged in any meaningful economic activity activity will ever take this discussion seriously, except that it's a good start, right? This is a good start.

It's, well, a good start, but it's also indicative of these little half-measures and half-steps, and the banking industry and regulators trying to take this, uh, this technology with great potential, and muffle it and, uh, slow it down so that it fits into existing business models. But I think that if blockchain technology and Bitcoin, as original as it is, have offered us any, uh, evidence over the last 18 years, it's that all of these attempts will be futile and much faster than we think, in years, not decades. All these, um, extraneous, value additions to bank profits and net income will fade into the background, and, um, you know, as cliché as it sounds, technology will burst out. We move on to the second part of today's panel today's panel . You've already mentioned some points, like the Treasury, right?

Hmm, very important, because at first you said that we have stablecoins on our balance sheet . This sounds a bit like just idle liquidity, but of course that's not the goal, is it? And, um, Oan, you mentioned some things you mentioned some things that we can already do with stablecoins stablecoins that we can invest in. Hmm, you said that wasn't enough. Hmm, maybe a question for all of you.

Hmm, what can we do now? Is this enough? And what else do we need if that's not enough, right? What does the future look like? Is it no longer necessary to reduce the volume of activities?

Will all this be done in electronic money? Will it be stablecoins, or central bank money, or something else? I would say we're not there yet. As you know, everyone in the discussion has already mentioned, I think there is definitely a lot more utility for stablecoins today, allowing corporate treasuries to hold these assets on their balance sheets. But there is still no clear regulation worldwide.

There are some regions, such as Europe, where this is allowing central banks and institutions to start taking this more seriously. But if you look at markets like Brazil, a country with significant stablecoin adoption. A quick change in regulation, and now, you know, everyone's a bit at the starting point, right? So, it all starts with regulation. You know, other use cases that we're seeing are not just stablecoins, but also tokenization of other real assets or different financial instruments, which is becoming a big trend.

Um, and at the same time, you know Um, and at the same time, you know , and part of the topic that we're looking at, and I don't want to get too far ahead of myself, but, uh far ahead of myself, but, uh , a big part of the benefits of blockchain is the ability to use, you know, smart you know, smart contracts and, you know, policy mechanisms like, you know, what MPC technology provides, which allows you to also remove a lot of human control from a lot of these operations that are still done manually in a lot of organizations. You know, if you need to approve something, you still need a lot of manual labor. Um, and being able to abstract away from the blockchain layer brings the added, you know, utility of removing a lot of the operational costs from institutions. Yes, that reminds me of something you said. It's not about making money move faster.

The point is to keep the money moving , right? This is, after all, the goal. This is what the life cycle of money should look like. Um, that's right. Invest in investing in money market funds for an hour or four, yeah, uh, when you're moving liquidity around the world, but I agree, you know, I'd be interested if I talked about agency payments and programmability, we're not there yet, so we're still at the stage where we're solving problems like something that was broken and never broken and never really fixed, like payments, but what does that look like in the future, do I have to move stablecoins all the time, or how is that going to be done in the future, if you look a few years ahead, um, is all of that going to be automated?

How can you even automate something like this? There is a lot going on in AIC payments. Yes, these are still small volumes, right? So we're, uh, co-authoring a machine payments protocol. Coinbase created X42.

Uh, yeah created X42. Uh, yeah , so what's promising here, huh ? that agents, corporations, and financial institutions investing in AI will eventually encounter stablecoins and digital assets because these two phenomena were made for each other, right? We are definitely not there. Yes.

But, but the amount of experimentation that's going on there is just incredible, you know, and something good is going to come out of it, right? And we're not just talking about developers, you know, experimenting with these protocols. We are talking about large corporations. We're talking about giants experimenting with agency payments, right? And I think that, um, just talking about the pace and how quickly things are changing, agency payments are going to increase that pace, you know, exponentially because, um, you mentioned that money wants to move 24/7.

Um, and agents will carry out transactions. Do you know if the entire economic history of humans is just about humans figuring out how humans figuring out how , you know, payment flows are like water. They look for ways to get around obstacles, and people do. Uh, institutions do it, and certainly agents who seek to conduct economic activity 24 hours a day, 7 days a week at the speed of, you know, millions of payments per second, per minute, whatever, will do it much faster. They will disrupt existing payment flows.

You know, the stablecoin sandwich will disappear like this ridiculous anachronism, because no agent will choose it, and just billions and hundreds of billions of dollars of economic activity will very quickly shift into completely new payment flows. And so, again, you know, why we're so excited about the future of Bitcoin and why we think that the Bitcoin payment solution is Bitcoin payment solution is most likely to win, or at least have an advantage over existing operators, is because when agents consider how they choose payment protocols and payment flows, they're going to look for a few clearly identifiable characteristics: such as liquidity, neutrality, transaction finality, and among all of these factors, Bitcoin is the largest platform that meets all of these requirements. So, um, we think you know that Aentics payment solutions , Aentics, it's, um, a Bitcoin game where you can win or lose, and that's actually one of the reasons why we've put so much effort into R &D again to develop BTC pay, which is an instant Bitcoin payment and probably won't go away from multiple assets, so so bitcoin, stablecoins , tokenized deposits, you know, we're working on a use case for GC bank tokenized deposits in the case of agent payments, right? So there will probably be several forms and really exciting things built, built, built in addition to this. I can see we could talk about this for hours.

This is a very interesting topic, but I see here a sign that we are nearing the end. Hmm, I don't know. Can we allow questions from the audience, maybe we're going a little out of the ordinary? It was a great conversation, Shasha and the guys, it was amazing. I think we've gone a little off the beaten path , but maybe we'll clap our hands and maybe give one final comment from each panelist, if you like.

Yes. Yes. Hmm, yeah, I think it was a great conversation. I also want to point out that we were all around each other all day, right? So if you have a question and haven't had a chance to ask it, just come to us.

Uh, I think we're all excited to talk about this, and, uh, I wish we could continue a little later with a little more on AI and automation, but, uh, it was a great panel it was a great panel . I want to thank you all for being here, and I'm sure we'll continue the conversation later. So thank you all. Let's give them a pat on the back. Let's give them a pat on the back.

Thank you very much.