Fireside Chat with Anthony Sassano, The Daily Gwei, & Kartik Talwar, ETHGlobal I Pragma Sydney 2024

[Music] let's start with our very first fireside chat please welcome Anthony from the daily guay on stage hello yeah we test it's working GM oh I hate saying that actually so our chat is intentionally scheduled to be the first one because um as we were kind of planning about what we should talk about we realize that there's so many things that are in our heads that we kind of just know are happening because we've been in this space too long or we're just way too deep but not everybody may know all these things that are happening so we decided to make this a a recording of the daily guay and uh we'll just cover what's happening in the news and uh we'll kind of just list everything that's going in our head so we'll be jumping around a lot of topics but the goal here is to help all of you just flag a bunch of important themes that are going on and uh for whatever topics you're interested in you get to kind of deep uh dive in on your own and we'll kind of cover some of these specifics but mostly um keep things high level on just listing things as much as possible and I think the the most interesting thing and the most recurring thing in our space has just been largely scaling uh there's so much going on with scaling uh we've talked about how do we get more transactions per second how do we get gas prices low all that stuff has just been literally the only thing anybody has cared about in the eem ecosystem for The Last 5 Years and to me I feel like we've made a lot of progress so my kind of first question to you would be uh do you agree with that and uh and how do you think about what's happened in the world of l2s and scaling yeah so I would say that I completely agree with that and I've been calling the period since uh denune went live with blobs or EIP 4844 as people will know it as the Golden Age of ethereum scaling uh for so many years we had all these promises we had all this research had all this kind of Insider development on the layer 2os and we were making Grand promises about how they they'd be much cheaper than main net they'd be faster um but for a period of time you know they were live but they weren't very cheap um and then suddenly with denune going live they got a lot cheaper and I think the um the reduction in fees actually surprised the people working on the EIP 4844 or or blobs with how cheap things actually got and now the bottleneck in scaling is actually moved onto the layer twos themselves and so they're doing a lot of work you know you have Jesse poch from bass talking about how they're going to be scaling Bas up to one gigas per second if you've seen him talking about that on Twitter uh because now the layer one is no longer the bottleneck for these layer 2os so they've dropped the fees down but now the fees can go up based on delaya 2's own limit limitations but um the reason why I C the Golden Age of ethereum scalability generally is because uh from that point from denune over the next few years we're going to be seeing a lot more scaling be done at the layer 2 side uh but also upgrades coming to the layer one to further help the layer 2's scale as well so yeah I mean if anyone has been paying attention the last few years as I said like there's been a bit of kind of back and forth about like just how scalable these things are well now we see they can be very scalable but it's just required us to put the work in put the upgrades live on Main net and then for the teams to actually use them and for the users to get the benefit as well so I guess the thing that maybe most people will uh will immediately ask is okay we solve L1 scaling by introducing a lot of these layer twos but then now the layer twos are jammed and we got to like now do scalings on them and then we're getting to layer 3es uh is this like a a Turtles all the way down situation we keep adding a new layer and then scaling hearing limits or or do you think this is still a net progress and we just have to kind of understand why these bottlenecks exist um why should people still be excited about more lat to is going on in this space i i liken it to how the kind of normal web or the normal internet developed where there was a period of time where there was this kind of notion early on like basically maybe in the like the 70s and 80s where you know how much demand could they really be was like the question back then it's like oh we'll just do everything on one server you know it'll be fine we'll have main frames you know IBM was famous for this but then as the demand grew and grew and grew it blew everyone's expectations out out of the water and they're like okay well how do we scale this thing and the concept of modularity was introduced where we started uh scaling via different uh different means scaling via adding you know more servers not just having one server everyone has a you know their own personal computer where they could run the computer on they wouldn't have to just run it on a Mainframe somewhere else right so that was really obviously a huge unlock and that's allowed us to scale up the internet scale up the web I think the same thing is happening within the crypto space right now so the as you mentioned like they're always kind of talk about you know do we need layer threes now do we need layer fours so on and so forth but I think each kind of part of that stack of that modularity stack serves its own purpose for a certain set of users there's not going to be you know hundreds of of layer twos and hundreds of layer 3es that that kind of win the most market share there going to be a network Effect game like we see in web 2 where there's only a handful of of kind of websites that have the most traffic on them that just by nature of the law of network effects so I think the same thing is going to play out within the crypto space but I think because the market tends to get ahead of where the technology is people think that we're a lot further along than where we are which we're not we're definitely not we're still very early in the the technology roll out uh right now none of the layer twos could handle anywhere near what we would consider mainstream demand but there is a clear path to getting there at least from my point of view and from a lot people in the ecosystem that we now have a very clear path of how we're going to scale ethereum it may not be everyone's cup of tea maybe everyone wants to have just like one layer that they do everything on but within the ethereum ecosystem we definitely believe in modularity and we believe that's the the most sustainable way to scale this uh to the world we're definitely going to touch into modularity in a bit but the most kind of common question here would be yes uh if we kind of look at web 2 or even any physical Goods Services there there is a power lot that exists the top five or six brands or companies are the biggest kind of players in any space but we're still seeing hundreds of layer twos or at least the attempts of them kind of going live and the thing I'm curious about is uh understanding if you have a framework for how should people think about different applications choosing to become Layer Two so we're seeing very much application specific layer twos and then some people are saying we're just going to scale up and be in a separate Network because we're just getting too much traffic uh do you think they behave as two different categories or is it going to be power laws and application specific Roll-Ups or layer twos or is it all like hey Basse and optimism and arbitrum become the big ones and then they have 90% of all the activity but everybody else just kind of stays in in their small corners and they were still successful but just not aiming to get millions of transactions so the way I think about it is uh we currently have a Cambrian explosion happening within the the layer 2 space within the modular space but just like any other Cambrian explosion there is an evolution process that takes place and the weakest uh for lack of a better word Solutions will be the ones that kind of die off and the strongest will survive and go on to scale ethereum to the world um so if you take that lens and then you look at what's happening today we already see this where optimism has what they call the super chain where essentially it is the concept that you could build thousands of rollups using the op stuck and they could all be part of the same layer to as part of a super chain so you could have all of these different different rollups all these hundreds of thousands but they're still part of the same ecosystem uh and for those who maybe aren't aware bass is part of that super chain they are building on the op stack same with something like Zora a few other chains out there uh and then you even have these l3s that live on Bas like d gen chain uh that is using arbitrum technology funny enough as a l3on base so you can see that modularity playing out there where you can use different parts of the stackyard but this says nothing about who's going to succeed like I couldn't tell you today in 5 to 10 years which l2s are actually going to be the winners same thing for l1's exactly exactly so I mean the L1 I can give you but when yeah when it comes to the L2 it's definitely you know anyone's gang and people will look at Bas and say okay well they've got coin bases support you know we confident coinbase is going to be around for a while it's like yeah sure but anything can happen in in that maybe uh it becomes too hard for them to continue with Bas because of regulations for example like or or or law enforcement or something like that like anything can can happen here so I think the leaders today may not be the leaders of tomorrow and it doesn't take very long for for that to play out either do you think in that world we kind of see that coming and we sort of already self- select ourselves to like either stop using it or kind of slowly wind down because the the biggest question that leads to is well if we're going to even have 20 chains which is not crazy to assume that's still messy uh your assets can only be in one place at a time you have to still spend anywhere from money to brain power figuring out where things are and uh right now it's a very messy world how do we think about interoperability in that in that situation yes so there are a few different solutions when it comes to interoperability I mean I talked about the the super chain they have their own solution where essentially if you're part of the super chain you're interoperable with all the other chains that are part of it uh part of the super chain here but there is also a lot of ongoing research very early research but very promising research about things like shared sequencing uh something called based sequencing um and there's uh a polygon is building something called the a layer which is aiming to have all the assets be part of just like this neutral layer and then you could be interoperable through that there are things like intense which is more in the meev world but can be used for interoperability where have a lot of um bridging protocols live that you know they're not perfect but they do what you need them to do because with optimistic rollups for people who don't know and uh base is built uh using optimistic wup technology so is uh the whole super chain ecosystem and arbitrum um if you wanted to withdraw natively it would take up to seven days or take actually seven days to to withdraw so obviously that is non-w workable for the vast majority of people so you can use these Bridges which have extra risk attached to them but they they do the job they let you get your funds a lot faster but the goal is to remove the need for these Bridges and remove the need for for this added risk and for things to become more interoperable but generally I I when I look at fragmentation I I see it play out everywhere it's not just with the l2s cuz for example if I'm on ethereum and I want to do something on another L1 I have to bridge to that L1 like I'm am fragmented from from that L1 uh and there are different ways to interoperate between l1s but the problems there arise from the fact that the l1s have their own security guarantees have their own you know block times have their own kind of intricacies which make it very hard to do safe and secure interoperability whereas if you're an L2 and you're settling down to ethereum L1 you're all settling on the same layer so you all have much easier and much safer interoperability uh and based on the solutions that I've just mentioned but others are also out there and coming online as time goes on so I do think that while it is an issue today it will definitely get solved and it is solved in a much cleaner way in an L2 World rather than just having like multiple l1s uh at least from my perspective oh definitely um because the goal here is to tell people about all the things that are happening let's maybe just do a oneliner on a bunch of things that we just talked about or you just named so let's look at different ways that people are solving this interoperability so what is agir what is shared sequencing and what is base sequencing yes I want to go too deep on each of these because they do get pretty deep but the Ager is uh something that polygon is building but um they are very clear about the fact that it is not a polygon product that it is something that they're building for the ecosystem that any layer 2 can tap into and can use so it's essentially the concept of having all of the assets live on this one it's technically not a layer but you know just for for I guess ease of of of discussing this um have it all exist on the AG layer so all of these assets are able to be interoperable with each other no matter what uh roll up or L2 that you're on as long as they're opted into the Ager so it definitely does need an opt in here and what that enables is basically that you won't have to take assets from arbitrum to base in order to do something on base You' be able to do something on base using the assets that you have on the AG layer uh and you able to use them on arbitrum as well so that's from a high level what the a layer is trying to do it does get a lot deeper than that and I encourage people to read about that um but that is basically what it does there and then uh shared sequencing and base sequencing definitely fall into each other they're kind of like I guess sister Concepts um but essentially it's the concept of uh right now each layer two or each rollup has what's called a sequencer which processes and ex and executes the transactions and orders the transactions um now they're all isolated from each other you know bass has its own sequencer arbitrum has its own sequencer so on and so forth so the concept of shared sequencing is as the name implies is to share the sequencing between different layers and that would also enable interoperability uh between the transactions and and and those sorts of things there and base sequencing is the same concept but instead of using a layer 2 sequencer you would use the layer one to do your sequencing so for example ethereum layer one validators would be able to sequence layer 2 transactions uh which is a is probably the newest the direction shift to where Layer Two transaction sequencing happens now and then it gets settled but here we're saying let's just make that the first yeah let's just in not enshrine it but let's like you know let's make it uh uh so that we can use you know I mean the ethereum validator set the operator set is is one of if not the most decentralized in the world uh so let's just tap into that you know instead of kind of spitting up all these new things we can already tap into something that we that we have and it also becomes more secure because you're not going from uh you know and it becomes more sensitive resistant as well because you're not relying on this new kind of network of sequences that you have to bootstrap you can just use the existing ethereum ones and also just the last comment here on this um igen layer plays into this too where essentially you can build a shared sequencing Network as an AVS on igen layer uh in order to to essentially bootstrap that so yeah there again because of the everything's modular now we get to pick and choose what we want to use and it becomes a really nice uh solution to all of these issues hopefully that's not too confusing uh because because it is to me and I've been in this space a while um well speaking of of uh agair let's talk about a really interesting topic and a very Hot Topic in this space and that's reaking so let's Maybe cover what reaking is it a sence and what it isn't which I think is equally important and maybe going into some of the ways we can think about how this affects everything in in our ecosystem so I think reaking is one of the most misunderstood Primitives Within the ethereum ecosystem today um because of the fact that we had Tera that blew up and everyone Likens it to Tera which is completely wrong but I will give a an explanation about what Igan layer is first and then dive into what it isn't as you said so essentially what it is is the concept of uh well reaking uh not just IG but reaking generally is the concept of taking an asset that has already been Stak such as eth and then reusing that to do something else right to secure an oracle Network to make a shared sequencer and secure that to secure layer twos using that so essentially you're reusing the economic security as we call it of of e stake for some other purpose so it's the concept of shared security as as Igan L likes to call it um now the reason why this is very uh cool and why people would want to use this is because traditionally spinning up a distributed and decentralized network of nodes is incredibly difficult it's incredibly difficult we've seen this with the different l1s out there they have a really hard time setting up a minor Network or just getting people to run notes it it you can keep it to decentralized it ends up being centralized exactly and ethereum is is unique in that it has or I mean not totally unique Bitcoin also has this culture to their credit of encouraging people at home to run nodes and not only run nodes but also uh stake from home as well and so because of that uh I think Ian leer saw that and we're like you know we have this cool reaking primitive let's tap into to this and let's get these um uh node operators to uh secure the abss as part of the Igan L ecosystem which has been obviously incredibly successful to this point they just went live um with their ABS system they've also Gone live with their token which is a bit of drama around we wer weren't touch on the token um so so there so there's that but I do want to uh talk about the really important Point as well of what igen layer or what reaking isn't so reaking isn't leverage it's not inherently leverage there is no leverage going on when you're reaking your eth that eth is backed up by eth in the uh deposit contract we call it or on the beacon chain it is staked there so not new eth isn't being created here there's no leverage being created here you're essentially just taking what you already have in an LST or an LRT token so you have like s or r or um you know ether version which is the the liquid reaking token uh you're taking these and uh you know you're doing other kind of uh other things with them so essentially there's no inherent leverage you can leverage these tokens of course but there's no inherent leverage in in reaking it is using the existing a compared to like a lending protocol like maker where you actually kind of creating a CDO and depositing and boring on behalf of it which behaves the same way for for an outsider but not the same mechanics yeah exactly and and I've seen people compare IG ler to to the 2008 financial crisis saying you know won't this all just blow up and it's like yeah sure if there's leverage but in IG layer or raking generally is not inherently leverag it's only when people start putting him into you know lending protocols so on and so forth that it becomes that and just the final thing I want to say here is when people make the comparison to Tera uh how Terror blew up was essentially that uh it had a death spiral it that's completely wrong because the way the terror mechanism worked is that in order to uh essentially make sure that the US stable coin didn't dpeg or didn't continue to deeg they would print more lunar tokens ethereum is not printing more eth to save igen layer or save reaking or save any protocol there is no mechanism to do that and there will never be a mechanism to do that hopefully I mean if there is you can say goodbye to me but uh essentially that's the the main difference there is that like there is no kind of risk there because there isn't that inherent leverage there isn't that printing of new eth to cover losses or anything like that it is one toone backed up by eth uh and you can see that on chain you don't have to believe me you go on chain you see it all it is one to one I think that's the important Point yes all right let's switch gears into slightly higher level but at the same time lower level on what we're talking about which is what's happening with ethereum protocol itself um a lot of people usually see the outcomes of all the efforts that have gone into scaling years down the road but these things have been working in the works for for years uh the the merge was a 5-year battle on just getting all those things finally at a point where everybody can mostly stop complaining about transaction fees mostly uh but there's a lot more in the works so I'm curious about what you think are some interesting things that are in the works right now that will be protocol upgrades in the future that make ethereum just more more powerful yeah so I I kind of bucket the things on the ethereum road map into to two different two different buckets here are there is the user facing and the non-user facing and if anyone has seen vitalic ethereum road map it's a flowchart that he put together with different phases like The Surge the Splurge you know the merge so on and so forth there are items in there that are both user facing and non nonuser facing I think when it comes to the ethereum L1 a lot of it is probably non-user facing where it's things like you know how do we make sure that meev doesn't destroy the protocol or how do we make the you know staking mechanism more secure so on and so forth so a lot of those upgrades are geared towards making the L1 chain more reliable and more robust not necessarily more scalable for the for the end user but then there are upgrades on on there that will make it more scalable for the end user and as I mentioned before we had EIP 4844 go live or blobs which is part of the wider sharding road map of of ethereum so uh essentially It's Not the Only Solution there are others coming uh there is data availability sampling um and data availability sharding or uh and a few others out there uh that I'm that I'm I'm forgetting right now but those all all fall into the same bucket of of user facing yeah Max CB is a funny one because there are some actually this might be a hybrid between the two buckets that sit in between where they are more uh you know non-user facing but they have user facing uh positive externalities so with uh Max CB just a quick summary here essentially I won't go too deep on this essentially what it wants to do is take a lot of load off the network um and by doing this we get to basically put more load on the network uh for other purposes so for example if we take load off the network with with this Max EB upgrade we essentially allow uh more load to be put on the network for layer 2 scalability for example so then it becomes user facing where essentially the users on the layer 2os will feel the cheaper fees because of it so yeah there is there is a hybrid bucket as well there which is um which which is really cool but this is why I said you know at the top of the talk that we're in this golden age of ethereum scalability because we have L1 road map items that are working on you know non-user facing stuff that are going to harden uh the protocol but then we've also got a lot that is working for the l2s which are the user facing layers uh which will improve it there not just with with fees but also with uh you know being able to uh essentially tap into different Primitives on L1 that you may not have been able to tap into before you know one of the things that went live with denune was that the two layers of ethereum the consensus layer and the execution layer the term layer has have been so so so layer one has two layers yeah yeah exactly like I knew I was going to maybe confuse people with that but U allowing them to communicate in a in in a better way allowing them to to basically um you know allowing sorry people to build things based on that communication that could FL up to l2s as well so yeah basically the the whole kind of road map is in service of hardening the protocol uh for everyone not just for the l2s but then also scaling the protocol for for the l2s and people will ask you know what about the L1 is that going to be scalable in the future it's never going to be as scalable as l2s that's just not the way ethereum has been architected but you know once a you know a lot of these upgrades uh materialize L1 will be more scalable but it's not going to be scalable to the point that it can service the world it's going to be scalable for the l2s for the big institutional players like Black Rock which we're going to get into in a sec so that that's kind of uh what's happening there um let's not spend too much time on this but kind of if if you read between the lines all this thing is getting us extremely ready for a world where you can have millions of users interact with millions of transactions at any given time and have an experience that doesn't really let them know that they're interacting with the blockchain um how far off do you think the consumer crypto world is and uh are you seeing something that you think is already on the verge of actually getting there and and anything kind of on the consumer side that you're excited about it it's always hard because within crypto things live or die quite quickly I think because of the financial incentives the monetary incentives there are certainly nonp speculative apps that have taken off recently I think one of the best examples is farcaster that has taken off recently I'm sure uh you know a few people in the audience are using farcaster but even with with farcaster as much as I love it it became quite speculative very quickly because there were like meme coins on there that you could mint in feed there were like nfts you could mint in feed and obviously when there's money there's people farming the money as well and setting up Bots and things like that so so when it comes to the overall consumer side I think there's going to be a delicate balance between recognizing what's a bot and recognizing what's a real human and we have a lot of solutions in the works to try and do that without doing kyc because obviously everyone will be like oh why don't we just do kyc it's like well I mean defeats the whole purpose of what we're building of course okay so how do we get around that and there are a lot of kind of onchain identity solutions that are being built and being experimented with you know git coin's been experimenting with them for a while now polygon's doing a bunch of work there as well I believe uh and you know there's others out there like BR ID and and and pup as well fits into this so when you look at that and look at the the the kind of approach we're taking from that lens that is still very early so from the consumer app side of things you can say oh my app has millions of users and it's like okay how many are real human users versus how many are Bots because the vast majority will be Bots and that's fine like the vast majority true for the same problem exists in web 2 too except just the ratios are slightly higher on this side yeah we what within also with web 2 when you're doing um Financial things you're kyed that's the and it's also permissioned where they can block your API access the people always compare web 3 to web two and say okay well why can't we be more as scalable as the NASDAQ it's like well guys the NASDAQ is a permission controlled system that has an API that they only allow access to people that they know it's not like uh crypto or web 3 where we have permissionless access for anyone in the world including North Korea as we've seen you know they love to hack the protocols um they can access this anytime anywhere they want globally and there's no way to stop them because there's no you know it's a permission system there's no one shutting them off I mean we've seen how there are issues with censorship because you can technically censor them but to get full censorship is is basically Impossible on on the ethereum network so from from that lens yeah I think when it falls to the consumer upside of things you have to have a way to balance what's a real user versus what is Bots and I know that protocols like to say they're real users because it pumps up the metrics web 2 does this too you know I'm sure that you know Facebook and Instagram and all that they all do this uh but we can see it on chain they can hide it from us we can see this on chain it just gets expensive at a point where you can try your best but it'll cost you yeah and but then that also introduces the issue of the fact that the cost is a lot to a regular user but the cost to an me bot is not because they're like okay well even if it cost me $100 to that do this transaction if I make a couple dollars of profit it's worth my time to do this because I'll do this hundreds of times a day sort of thing so there is a delicate balance there that is unique to web 3 I think because of the financial side of things um so I guess before we wrap up let's kind of switch perspectives from what we know on the the developer side and the protocol side to what everybody else sees about what's happening in crypto uh there's a lot of themes are getting crypto and just and just ethereum even more and more mainstream and we kind of have been seeing a lot of that in the news recently so there's there's talks about I mean stripe recently integrated crypto payments back so you can do that at checkouts or you'll be able to very soon uh we have kind of the ETF stuff going on uh we're seeing that happen in multiple countries and we're seeing obviously people try different sort of payments as as a regular thing um is that cool is that good or is that just we knew it was going to happen so I'm glad that they're just trying it how do you feel about the confidence in in this ecosystem from all those participants giving crypto a shot again I think from the outside looking in like a non- Crypton native just like a regular person looking into crypto traditionally all you've seen is the real speculative kind of gross side I guess you could call it because typically these people only pay attention to crypto at the end of a bull market or like the tail end of a bull market where you know in 2021 we had nfts going nuts and everyone's like why are these things like everyone outside of equ is like why are these things worth hundreds of thousands of dollars there was a point where nfts were the default profiles for Instagram as a product that has a billion users and I don't think I've seen that after yes yeah exactly so there there was yeah a lot of of mania around it due to the monetary incentives right um but then we also have this weird thing going on right now where we're getting a lot of institutional adoption generally you mentioned the ETFs you know study May 23rd we'll see what happens with the ETF in the US but uh you mentioned the other countries like Hong Kong Australia recently announced that they're going to be doing a Bitcoin ETF soon not sure on the E ETF front but I'm sure that will follow shortly after uh well hopefully um but you know it's it's becoming apparent that the institutions the bigger players the tradire players as you mentioned stripe as well they're very interested in crypto still Black Rock just put their own you know tokenized fund on ethereum Main net on L1 ethereum not a private chain not some test net on Main net with real kind of money on the line there real capital on the line so there's a lot of real institutional adoption happening but the reason why it's weird is because then you have the Regulators in the US being very anti- crypto I mean I don't have to go into the details we all know but it kind of becomes this thing of okay well if the biggest trafi players in the world like black Brock and stri which manages like8 trillion doll or something of of assets for the rest of the world exactly if they're embracing crypto and thinking this is the future and Larry think the CEO of black rock is going on mainstream media and saying tokenization is the future and then you have the other side whereas the regulat being like we need to stamp this thing out it's it it just creates this very weird perception I think for the mainstream audience where they're like you know is this thing real is it not like why is Black Rock involved with this if Gary gendler hates ethereum sort of thing so I I I think that the it's shifted from people being grossed out by crypto to maybe being curious but confused now and that's no fault of our own I I don't think uh we can't control what The Regulators do we can't control what what the politics are there uh but I've always been about you know follow the money follow the developers as well follow the building and the building and the developers and the money is all still on chain is the future so from that perspective from that lens I think that uh the regulatory political side of things will get worked out eventually either people will move where they're based B you know based on the the Hostile environments that they're in in the US for example or eventually The Regulators will just keep losing in the court and keep getting forced into doing things and it it'll it'll be fine eventually so there's there's a fight don't get me wrong there is a war there is a fight especially on the Privacy side and a and a continuous constant fight exactly and and and we're going to have a talk about private not not us but there will be a talk about privac next one coming up uh but that is definitely something that I don't know if people have been paying attention to has been really under the microscope Lately from the Department of Justice in the US they're coming down hard on on privacy because there as narage from coin Center put it their warrantless surveillance regime wasn't built for a world where they didn't control the intermediaries they don't control the intermediaries on on chain and they're really I don't know if they they're scared of it but they're really concerned because the state is all about control and they're losing it with the Privacy so I'll let the the next panel talk about that uh but that is a fight that we're going to have for sure I think that was a really awesome summary of all the themes that we know will become super relevant in the next 6 to 12 months and uh we kind of covered what's happening from the consumer side to the protocol side to just the effect of that for if you're a developer or a or a person just interacting with crypto and uh hopefully you all found that super super insightful um I personally did and and I learned a bunch of new things too so before we kind of end this uh discussion uh my last question to you is overall would you say you're bullish on ethereum well I work up bullish today if that's any indication but yes very bullish on ethereum very bullish on everything happening within the ecosystem everything we talked about and didn't talk about um but also before we end I just want to say a big thank you for bringing eth Global to Australia we're often the Forgotten Nation uh in crypto maybe not as forgotten is New Zealand shout out to the kiwis but we are definitely you know on the other side of the world uh but we have a lot of representation here a lot of protocols here a lot of projects here you know just to name a few immutable uh we have Rocka pool we have uh Sigma Prime developers of the lighthouse clients uh swell there there are so many that are in Australia and that are born out of Australia I think we're batting above our average for sure uh but abely yeah yeah um so thank you once again for bringing e Global to Australia uh we when we were well thank [Applause] you when we were looking at where we should go next it was very obvious that like hey why is nobody doing events in Australia it's been five years since the last big one I think it was edcon was the last one I personally can remember and uh and I feel like that is Injustice like we've see so many people participate in our online events we see so many austr come to all the other events that we do and uh well we wouldn't be at Global if you don't show up everywhere else so uh I'm super happy that we're here and I can't wait for the next one to be even bigger than this so Anthony thank you so much for joining me here and uh hope you all enjoyed this discussion [Applause]