BBW22 - Day 3 - Let's Meet the Creators

[Music] my name is JT as you know he just said I'm a host of JT invest in you I've been in the crypto space since about 2017 and I'm delighted to have this conversation we're joined today by Bennett Thompson the co-founder of block beam and uh Caleb wurston the CEO of world Haas uh block beam is an action-based learning platform and World Haas uses blockchain to make home ownership uh more accessible to the average person so delighted to have this conversation and welcome to the panel how you guys doing doing good thanks again thanks fantastic fantastic so I want to start off with just a little bit of background on our panel members here if we could start off with Caleb and just give a little bit of background on yourself and you know what world Haas does yeah yeah thanks thanks for the invite thank you to Ian and John and everyone involved for putting this on it's great to see Quincy Mass a Gateway City sort of reinvent itself as the economy changes and you know blockchain is a huge area of opportunity as Ben and I are are capitalizing on so you know really great to see see this happen uh World house we're we're making international home ownership effortless we've been around for about six months we're working with a couple Boston law firms to structure these International deals so anyone can go on our uh our applications actually launching in two weeks so picture Zillow but there's a buy button and a calendar so you can buy property anywhere in the world at the click of a button and we use nfts to represent ownership in the LLC which owns the property and the advantage there as it's totally us-based so our our members don't actually touch local regulations or tax implications and we've you know spent a lot of time with our lawyers to to structure this in a legally sound way uh and I I think lawyers are actually some of the big winners in in blockchain a lot of the firms in Boston have blockchain practices ropes and gray Nutters building out a practice O'Connor Law Sharon and login sounds like there's another firm that I'm not familiar with uh who which which has a blockchain practice so it's a huge area of opportunity and you know we're we're happy to participate fantastic and if I could post the same question to you Bennett that'd be awesome yeah um thanks again for Quincy for having this and it's nice to finally meet other people in the accelerator as well um so I'm building block beam it's a web 3 education and recruiting Network um we have our own boot camps um we host resume workshops recruiter amas um Career Fairs and we also refer students and entry-level talent to take our own business side boot camps or technical boot camps and we'll send people off to different recruiters or VCS that are looking to tap into the next generation of talent fantastic so onboarding in this space is one of the biggest uh issues I'd say that you know we're all trying to tackle and I know both of you here have a lot of experience working in startups in the industry uh if you could both just take the time of starting with you Bennett on sharing you know what your experiences have been uh working in startups in the industry and what would you say to aspiring entrepreneurs that are trying to enter the space whether it be to work for a startup or to start their own yeah um first things first like the time is now like you're never gonna have this opportunity again especially being a student I dropped out of Northeastern University um in January um so it would be a or I would be a junior right now um but I felt like school was always going to be there for me I can always kind of like go back to it if I need to it to be there um but I kind of just like jumped head first once I saw this problem I started the club the blockchain club at Northeastern University um and I just saw this huge gap between a ton of students who want to enter web 3 and a ton of companies that want to tap into the next generation of talent but there's no transparency between what students have done what kind of work experience they have or what kind of work product they've created um so I saw this huge gap that needed some kind of like connector or Bridge um so I decided to build block theme to really enhance the students learning style and into emerging Tech help students build their Network and then also create work product they can show to employers um so the best thing you can do as a student or as someone who kind of wants to jump in head first is build your network never be afraid to message anyone LinkedIn Twitter I'm always happy to talk or connect people and then also just like yeah like find mentorship no one's here I feel like any crypto or just traditionally it's hard to share ideas with other people especially if you think they're like groundbreaking um but no one I've never had an experience where someone's like oh that's a great idea I'm gonna steal it and go do it like everyone's sitting in this room probably has their main startup or their main company then like five other things on the side um everyone's just here to help and wants to see kind of like your ideas be pushed forward yeah I'd completely agree with that honestly one of the things that has fascinated me so much about this space is how accessible everybody really is I mean I started my YouTube channel about 14 months ago and I've had some fantastic guests on that I would have never expected to have on my show and all you have to do is ask sometimes a lot of these people are very very willing to share their knowledge share their experience so absolutely reach out on LinkedIn do whatever you have to do uh Caleb if I could post the same question to you if you could share your experiences working in startups and you know maybe a little bit of advice for those uh seeking to enter the space yeah I mean I would start uh by just using the analogy like a startup it's making a a snowball you know you're con you're pushing this ball of snow and there are different attributes that you have that will make that snowball grow faster uh and so I would recommend anyone that doesn't have startup or technology experience to get that experience and what I did I went to crunchbase I searched for companies in Boston that just raised the series a this was back a few years ago happened to be super pedestrian so I joined an employee 40 and left at 400 and that's a typical experience for somebody joining a company right after they raise a series a they have more money than they have people so I I would recommend that to students and anyone looking to get startup experience it's just super super accelerated you'll get promotions three times faster than your peers and that's going to help when you go to you know found a company make that snowball grow faster because people take you a bit more seriously you have you know the experience that you need to understand actually what you should be prioritizing and then you can draw on the network that you built at that company so that would be my recommendation fantastic and I don't know if it's just because of the weather and how cold it is but the snow analogy is uh is definitely on point for sure you know uh this this next one's gonna be a little bit more abstract but let's just talk about the tech a little bit so in in your mind Bennett what is blockchain and what makes it so you know revolutionary and uh and where do you see the space progressing over the next two three four five years um a lot of different ways for sure um I'll definitely take it into more like education route um because there's a lot of different directions we can go um first of all like digital ownership and then also like proof of transactions and being able to verify like where someone went to school what they've done like what's actually on their GitHub and micro badging or Soul bound tokens I think are going to be pretty cool to see enhance someone's kind of like work life balance in the next like a few years um especially like taking different courses online you finally have like you have this project that's like also backed by a token um online and then looking forward down the road it's also going to be interesting to see okay this wallet took discourse discourse discourse they're badged and now they work at this company this person took this this and this and they don't have a job so it's going to be able to you're going to create like a more transparent pathway for yourself into the industry all based on like okay these courses are actually successful and these courses are just like selling I don't know they're selling a bunch of junk or whatever it might be um and then something that I'm kind of excited for is looking at the other side of things so like what if there's a way for like career like employers to issue badges to people to show when people were getting hired um just to be able to show that kind of like end of the cycle rather than everything being upfront yeah it's a really interesting concept to uh basically have you know these identifiers in your wallet that can that can travel with you essentially and tell you you know which classes you've taken what uh education you have what experience you have and I'll hold within uh sort of a digital decentralized identity if you will that's a definitely a really interesting concept if I could pose the same question to you Caleb uh you know in in your mind what is blockchain and you know what excites you about it and the future of it you know projecting out two three four five years yeah so we're seeing you know blockchain ShakeOut right now as we enter this this winter period I think real estate is going to emerge as the primary use case for blockchain if you think about transacting real estate there are two two primary methods uh you know one is is to use your legal name and it's a a deed office that's this database that is the source of Truth for for that real estate transaction or you can use an LLC or Corporation and it's the Secretary of State's office and the state that you incorporate is the source of Truth blockchain is just a database that is a trustworthy source of Truth and so what what we're leveraging is we're leveraging ethereum over those other two sources of Truth to dramatically bring down transaction costs and that's also true for financing if anyone has anyone purchased real estate outside of their country of origin by chance in the audience yeah no one oh one person yeah it's super uncommon for people to buy real estate outside of their country because you have all these complexities and you also typically can't get financing blockchain solves both of those problems uh and you know we're not the only company that's realized this there are a lot of real estate firms on the investment side that are tokenizing assets abroad but you can form U.S companies that own assets abroad and transact those U.S companies and so so that that's the structure we're using it's really exciting because it opens up International mortgages and it opens up a secondary Market of frictionless real estate trading and you know the model that we've chosen is its actual usage so we're going after the digital Nomad or the vacationer that wants the two months in Paris or Costa Rica and they don't want to go through any of the complexity and they want to get that financed yeah that's really awesome I tend to agree that the two uh you know the two major hurdles if you will for blockchain adoption is making is education and uh real world utility real world assets on chain so I completely agree I think uh real estate is going to be a big factor in blockchain in the future and my background is actually also as a real estate agent so that is uh definitely you know definitely partial to that concept uh let's let's take it back a little bit and talk about the onboarding process again and uh discuss education because I know block beam is focused on educating uh you know the space educating people on blockchain uh do you feel that education is the biggest hurdle uh to entering this space because it is still intimidating for those that you know I talk to friends that aren't in crypto or blockchain and they look at it from the outside as if uh you know they just really don't understand what's going on so it's education the biggest hurdle and what do we have to do to onboard the next billion users yeah great question um definitely lots of different things to break down that question um first of all yeah education is a huge problem it really depends on like how risk adverse you are especially if you're entering crypto just to see it as an investment rather than okay I want to get into web 3 blockchain to start playing around with some of these applications um so what we're focusing on is like kind of merging the two um with you look at real world applications and you also look at blockchain and all of our boot camps everything is kind of like you're bringing in speakers you're bringing in CEOs you're bringing in people that are building these actual companies so you can explain to people like okay this is blockchain now these are the real world implications and what how blockchain is being used to solve them so I think that rather than blockchain being like this it's is definitely painful to like kind of come on and be on boarded every day you feel like oh wow I did not know that I feel like I'm just learning new things every day just because the ecosystem is huge um can like kind of conveying that back to the internet I don't really know how the internet works I don't think people need to know how blockchain works the next 10 years 20 years I think it'll just be an easy kind of like just plug-in like just logging onto the internet you're logging into your wallet and it kind of coexists um and I don't think you really need to know the underlying technology but I do think it is important to know kind of what applications are out there and how blockchain can enable those um kind of companies and then what was the second part just like onboarding the next yeah I mean what in your view how do how does the industry on board the next uh billion users yeah um communication like talking to your friends um talking to family um kind of like just sending them different articles sending them little thought posts anything to like Peak their interest bring in different perspectives opinions to the industry is going to be huge especially because right now it is very male white dominant of the finance sector kind of coming over to crypto so it's great to see different inclusion events um like people from different backgrounds coming in Sharing different opinions um and kind of like Bridging the Gap to make it a lot more inclusive in the space fantastic and I tend to agree with almost everything you just said there and if I could pose a similar question to you Caleb I know block beam is working on you know the education side of things where World house is more focused on the real world utility with real estate but in your view how can how do we merge the two you know bringing real world utility to the blockchain and education to help better onboard the next billion users like how do we accomplish that yeah I mean I think it's incumbent on the companies to make products that don't need a lot of explanation so if you think about the iPhone [Music] grandparents can use iPhones now because they're so simple and easy to use and I think one of the reasons why blockchain's got gotten so much sort of flack for being difficult to understand is a purposeful sort of mysteriousness on behalf of some of the protocols to essentially trick people I'll give a couple examples anchor protocol if you go on their website this is one of the defunct D5 projects you know you'll see in big flashy letters 20 apy and then there's a 20 Page white paper and so people going on anchor they're like okay I can you know deposit cash and I get 20 apy which is crazy and I have the option of reading this white paper which I would assume most people don't and so it gives the impression in that blockchain and D5 is really difficult to uh understand concept but in reality anchor protocol was illegitimate and a scam and and Terra Luna is a similar example the algorithm algorithmic stablecoin you know it's it's just an asset that has no real world backing and people were using it and it was it was backed by a sister coin and and you know if you were to read the white paper you would be left thinking it's difficult to understand but in my perhaps cynical view it was purposefully cynical to understand so that you wouldn't really tackle what was actually happening um and and so yeah I mean for for Real Estate we're lucky that we have a couple of big players that have stepped into the space to educate people uh Adam Newman and a16z recently announced a16z injuries and horwitz's largest ever investment uh and to flow and and they're tokenizing real estate uh they have a bit of a different model and we can sort of go into that one-on-one if anyone wants to but yeah we're banking on some big players in this space to help educate folks and get people comfortable with the concept Picasso is is familiarizing people they have a billboard on the highway over here on this idea of easy fractional ownership uh so yeah that's our stance fantastic and you both brought up a fantastic point of and and I totally agree with the fact that I think Mass adoption happens in the space once the technology is in the background you know we all use iPhones as you mentioned and we don't understand how the apps work we just go to the App Store download an app and use it and I think it's going to be the same thing with the crypto space once once the blockchain industry reaches that point where the technology is in the background it's not what people have to understand because like like you said you don't have to understand the internet to use it you just use it I think that's when the space reaches Mass adoption and you brought up defy a little bit so I want to touch on that uh you know Bennett could you start us off with you know what is defy in your mind and was it just a fad of 2020 2021 or is it or is it something that uh we'll see uh you know build into something more fascinating in the future yeah so device stands for decentralized finance um so it basically enables peer-to-peer payments um it's like crypto ethereum and you can look at like unislav decentralized exchanges um I don't think it's a fad I think it was definitely like right now it's definitely a huge marketing push um of just all these random coins pumping and liquidity and then just rug pulling um so I think it'll definitely scare away a lot of people that were involved early I just wanted to make a ton of money um including myself definitely involved in a few uh rug pulls just uh tried to get rich quick little schemes um the longer term implications I think Caleb can talk a lot about like um with real estate I think that's like a huge Market we work with a bunch of different companies that are um fractionalizing real estate mostly in the US um and like tokenizing real estate which is super interesting um yeah I don't know I mean I'm not super deep in the defy space but I think it's that's fantastic it was a similar question to you since you started started us off with the conversation about anchor Terra Luna and so forth I mean what's your view on D5 as it stands today and do you think it was just a fad of 2020 2021 well I mean as Bennett mentioned there there's an immense amount of scams in the space so it's left a lot of bad tastes and mouths so I I try not to associate with D5 uh one area that I think will emerge uh and is super valuable and Defy is the international mortgage right now like I mentioned it's extremely difficult to finance International purchase of real estate and defy does offer a solution uh so you know that that's on our roadmap to let people get the loan on on the asset abroad uh so yeah I'm really excited about that and I mean I guess you could consider tokenizing real world assets as decentralized Finance because you're using ethereum rather than centralized databases like the deed office and Secretary of State's office to represent ownership and there are a bunch of companies tokenizing assets like art uh you know real estate cars and one of the I guess interesting trends that I've seen in this space is you have company sort of special purpose companies uh that will buy an asset and and get limited partners to buy assets like private Equity firms buying real estate or small companies that's pretty easy to tokenize so you're seeing a lot of of these sort of just traditional investment companies using coins because it's it's cheaper to transact ownership between limited partners um you know it adds liquidity uh in that secondary market so I think they're just you're going to see a lot of traditional investment companies shift to using tokens and then you can do interesting things on top of that you know you can also provide usage rights of the asset which is what we're doing and then you can provide loans again D5 loans against the asset because you can give the lending lending protocol that's you know managing folks capital a lien on the asset which enables the mortgage or or any sort of asset-backed loan you know that's awesome and you mentioned something that I'm not sure if it's going to be of interest to anybody else definitely of interest to me here uh the concept of an international mortgage via blockchain could you expand on that a little bit because I've actually you know not really considered this idea uh really at all so I'd love to learn more personally and I'm hoping some people in the audience would as well yeah I mean I I you know this is about a year out for us so I have a superficial understanding which I can share but essentially you know it's been difficult traditionally to get these International mortgages because you're playing between two jurisdictions you've got Bank of America in the U.S that knows who you are and can verify your credit score and you know has ways of of taking like a local asset but they don't have the same control in Costa Rica and the Costa Rican bank doesn't know who you are and you know their interest rates are much higher and you know in the case of a lot of Latin America countries there's it's more difficult just in general to get a loan so you're kind of stuck in this Purgatory between two jurisdictions which is why ninety percent of of real estate transactions at least in Latin America are all cash for for Americans and what D5 promises and there are startups that are focusing on D5 mortgages uh so it you know we're in very early days and we'll see how how it plays out and I'm sure lawyers will make a lot of money off of helping the entrepreneurs figure out how it works but the idea is you have folks anywhere in the world that probably own usdc maybe ethereum but let I'm more bullish on stable coins uh they get together they're organized by a lending protocol that specializes in credit modeling uh a particular sort of group and is familiar with a particular asset and there might be a partner company like World house that has worked with that lending protocol to train them on for inform them on exactly what it means to own this this asset and how the lien works you know what rights they have to this asset when they give one of our users a loan uh and because the the cryptocurrency is international it it wouldn't you know have a lot of the sort of regulations that are tied to a lender using US dollars at least in theory uh so you know that that's what the that sort of a high level of what's happening with International mortgages and companies that look to leverage them like us cool appreciate that answer uh now I want to take this next portion of the conversation just uh somewhere a little bit fun you know we've all heard about the metaverse we've heard of Facebook and meta entering the space and we've had a conversation off stage about how we're all a little iffy about the word metaverse but I want to talk about it anyway you know Bennett what's uh what's your view on the metaverse and is it something that's actually going to live up to the hype that's uh being built into it or do you think it's just that and just hype yeah I think we're a long way from that I think the pandemic definitely did just build the hype um and it I was never when I grew up I didn't really play video games I spent most of my time outside um so when I first got into like the Oculus and stuff like that I just sit there and just be like all right I got a headache now like I'm spinning around I have no idea where I am like I'm sweating my my ass off um for no reason um it is super interesting concept just like talk to people and like have like your fake body and your own character and you're sitting I was like playing blackjack or something when I first tried it so just sitting on this table with like random people um so I do think that's kind of an interesting concept and it's like you're kind of putting yourself in someone else's shoes in this in a way um but I do still value like in-person relationships and in Real Life Connections um I spent like more so after the pandemic um trying to get it back out like meeting people at conferences um going like having like coffee networking sessions um whatever that might be and then but also Zoom is also helpful um but I don't know I just like can't see myself going into a metaverse world checking in every day especially right now at just like terrible Graphics um and whenever Mark Zuckerberg posts I'm just like oh my goodness like what is this what is happening um I'm sure we've all seen the memes of those um but I think we're still a long way from that I think like Ready Player One definitely makes the metaverse seem pretty cool I don't know if you guys have seen like the movie or TV or book um I think we'll definitely get there one day but I don't foresee it being any time within the next like five years I'd say that's about right what do you think yeah I mean so the way that I think about it most valuable company in the world Apple they control the relationship between us and the internet so Venture capitalists and Facebook saw this reality and thought okay if we can be the intermediary between people and the internet maybe we can be the a valuable company and and So Meta made a hard pivot into the metaverse launched they acquired Oculus and you know published impressive sales figures but at the end of the day the internet's engaging and the metaverse today is not engaging people buy the Oculus use it five times and don't use it after that so you know in theory it it's great because it's like 3D internet but we just haven't seen the engagement and the sort of entertainment or utility that it would sort of validate these huge Investments yeah and the industry is still really early so I'd expect that to change over time but I completely agree I mean I own an Oculus and I've probably worn it five times like exactly I will say though one of the cool things about it is uh the ability to do like YouTube uh VR which is really interesting and I've kind of put myself into a couple concerts before which is kind of bizarre but you're absolutely right after a while it just hurts your head you know you can't you can't really do it for too long but moving on from that I want to you know because we only have about 10 minutes left in this panel I want to ask each of you you know where where do you see the most excitement in this space I mean obviously you're working on it like an education platform and you're working on a real estate platform so outside of those two things you know what is it in the blockchain space that you're seeing whether it's being created now just created or working on in the future like what is it that uh what's the next big thing all right let me start sure yeah I'm fascinated by a U.S backed stable coin uh the CEO of Mercado Libre which is like the Amazon of Latin America was at a conference in Boston and made the point that the country is most quickly adapt adopting crypto are the countries with the highest inflation Argentina has one of the highest adoptions of crypto which just blew my mind uh and it's interesting because if the U.

S were to essentially uh like nominate and support a U.S backed stable coin that could dramatically increase the demand of the US dollar which for us would have deflationary effects for the home country would have inflationary effects but it could sort of take us one step further into being the global uh currency which just has such Monumental impacts because if if you're a an agent in a country that and you don't trust your government and you don't trust the currency you know you might want to switch all of your assets into into US dollars or a currency that's backed by the US dollar which is is just such a dramatic change from the way things are today and I think people don't talk about this but Bitcoin and ethereum and ownership of any currency by an American that's not a US dollar is inflationary because you're decreasing the demand on the US dollar so I wouldn't be surprised if we start to see a more antagonistic approach towards the non-us dollar-backed currencies in the US and more sympathetic approach to it stable coin yeah and you make a great point I also agree that I think the U.S dollar-backed stable coins will actually help uh you know support the Dollar's dominance on a global stage I want to get your opinion though because you mentioned UST before you bring up so you brought stable coins a couple times uh Caleb how do you feel about decentralized stable coins I obviously uh you know you gave your opinion on algorithmically backstable coins but there are a couple other versions whether it be over collateralized stable coins or so forth uh do you do you see any room for those in the future yeah I mean I think if you talk to experts in the space they'll just say stable cleanse are great it needs to be 100 or more collateralized and you need to have an independent third party auditing the books and that doesn't look it doesn't sound incredibly different from Bank regulations we require that their loans are collateralized to a certain percentage and we require that they get audits so I mean I think that's pretty reasonably the direction that we're moving fantastic and if we could bring that last question back to you Bennett uh you know what what do you see as like whether it be the most opportunity or the most exciting new application coming to blockchain aside from you know what we've talked about so far yeah something that really fascinates me is governance especially within Dallas um if you look at some of the main protocols like unit swap Susie Swap and you look at okay forever unit slab token I hold okay that's one vote in this protocol with what we can decide to do and you go look at okay who are the top voters oh five million the top five people all have 2.5 million plus votes sixth person who has the most unit swap votes is 800 or something like ridiculous that are people that are actually participating so even like even though we're saying okay decentralized decentralized decentralized everything is still very manipulated and very centralized um so I'm kind of excited for like the next kind of Protocols of upbringing to like kind of bring together people that aren't voting um because there's like 99 of people that own tokens are not actively pursuing governance it's like what can we be doing with those tokens is there some way to incentivize those people to come together um or delegate those tokens to other people for voting um or is there a way that we can kind of restrict um voting power from like the core team and then kind of like delegate different sectors um and I think the whole process of like governance is fascinating um especially if you look at like traditional voting um in the US they can't even get most people to show up to like elections and then we're trying to do that on the same kind of scale for crypto um but this time we're voting proposals every two days or every five days and there's a lot of things hap that are happening um so I think that that kind of area kind of fascinates me absolutely and you know blockchain voting you know on these applications and all these on these different programs is absolutely fascinating as you mentioned but to bring it more on a higher level I'm curious to get your thoughts on using blockchain in government to uh you know to provide more transparent voting or to allow people to be able to vote from their phone and know that it's actually being recorded in a proper manner do you think this is something that could be adopted in the future or what do you see the future of blockchain voting more broadly well that's tough and it kind of goes back to privacy and how secure these blockchains are going to be I'm originally from Ohio I think there's a company called Bodum based out of like Cleveland is running block like elections on the blockchain then they ended up getting hacked and like had like terrible repercussions for everyone that voted um so still not there yet um I do think it'd be kind of interesting just like break down barriers to voting um and then also just like it might get more people involved but I don't think we're there yet on like the Privacy or security side of being like okay this is going to be secure um and then also like the digital identity um the IDS um still coming to Market or very early within technology everything's kind of been this huge marketing push of oh we're building this next Generation technology here it is and when you actually read the white paper you actually read the documentation you're like okay where where are the things they're saying in the marketing they're not actually here yet they're not actually deployed it's still on the roadmap um but kind of like buying into that false hope all by the the pretty landing page definitely throws some people sideways yeah the concept of a decentralized digital identity identity is absolutely crucial for something like that to actually take place and I think there's another issue of uh the private ballot where you know these are public ledgers so you see everything all the transactions that happen although voting it should be A Private Matter nobody should be able to tell what's on these ballots so I agree I do think there's a lot of ways to go before uh we get to that point but I do think it's at least a nice idea to uh you know kind of investigate further do you have any thoughts to add to that Caleb yeah actually one of a super early blockchain company called votes was founded in Boston I think they were founded in 2014 and uh back in college I went out to Michigan with them to do the massive or the Michigan Democratic primary on their technology so I would be curious where they're at today but yeah we have a HomeTown company operating in this space but I I mean one issue that you still have is the on-ramp uh with with this because if you're you know let's say you're using a machine or you're using a paper paper ballot that's getting read you can still manipulate at that level before it hits the blockchain and this is a problem a lot of projects run into so I'd be curious I'm sure votes have spent years thinking about this but I'd be curious to get their take on that absolutely absolutely so we've got about three minutes left uh let's uh let's make this next question just uh just a fun question let's talk about uh web3 gaming that's a big industry in the blockchain space A lot of people are you know really excited about you know this this play to earn space or just blockchain gaming in general uh I'm curious and I'm Keen to get both your takes on the industry because I feel like it kind of aligns with the metaverse but at least it's more it's it's less theoretical there's already applications that are built today and I think they could improve uh but it's it's already happening so I'm curious what is your thought on blockchain based gaming don't take it sure yeah I mean this is another example where Okay so let's say World of Warcraft there's a super rare sword that you want verifiable ownership of that is the stakes are much lower than your house and so the added friction abusing blockchain uh to to underpin that game I just don't see it I know there's an insane amount of BC activity in in web 3 gaming and maybe you guys can challenge or like teach me why it's so malleable but I just I haven't really seen it yeah like I guess you can guarantee uh sort of a limit on on supply of things which in theory can cause speculation and value with like crypto kitties which is one of the early blockchain projects but I'm sure cryptokitties are not valuable as valuable today as I wear back then yeah no that's true I mean I can't imagine uh I can't imagine they are even close to the same values they were back then do you have any thoughts you want to add to that yeah I'm kind of in a similar boat um I mean they saw with the actually it was like kind of like another pump and dump um yeah I still feel like I mean I have a bunch of gaming friends they don't use any blockchain gaming company just because first of all like the games are like playing like 2 000 Minecraft or 2000 Roblox um it's like super old everything's like a block character um and then like the onboarding process is too hard they're like why did I do that when I just play Call of Duty or Modern Warfare or something they've already been playing for years and there's already hundreds of thousands of players and tournaments going on um I do think like the play to earn model is pretty interesting but then it also goes back to like most is gaming um crypto companies have been like they'll have like three months spurts of insane users and insane users nothing more than like a hundred thousand um but then just after that everyone just like on to the next whatever is going to make them the most money um so I don't think we're there yet I think that there's still like the problem onboarding the problem of what kind of values it's bringing um I know that a lot of people in like gaming will be like oh well fortnite whatever or whatever um Digi like um gaming coming out they can just delete the game it'll be all your data and all you like all your progress will just be a race forever um and it's kind of like the threat almost um but I'm still not sold on gaming and blockchain yet yeah I think it has a ways to come but I just you know maybe I'll do a little bit of pushback before we end I mean I there's a lot of people already in the gaming space that spend hundreds of dollars on new skins and things like that that are stuck in that game that they don't actually have like a claim of ownership too they can't you know take to another game made by the same production company or something like that so I actually want to give a little shout out because I see a couple people back there working uh from the Reach team and uh they're working on something called alloy to to do uh to really change the blockchain gaming space I just want to give them a shout out maybe people can go talk to them afterwards but that seems to about wrap up our time here today so I want to thank Caleb and Bennett for joining me on the stage today I want to thank Ian for putting on such a great conference and cubic for sponsoring it thanks