EBC22 | Crypto is Finding its Way into Traditional Multi-Asset Portfolios

okay so next session is crypto's finding its way its way into traditional multi-asset portfolios actually i think this title came from you or from edo so yeah thank you for for the idea so welcome back after lunch i hope you are feeling a bit better and please the stage is yours great yeah so now we have the very great so yeah welcome and thanks that you're all here um i think it's a really tough task to have the like the panel after lunch right i hope you hope you all had some great lunch um yeah so this is a panel which is about a crypto investing and also we talked about institutional crypto adoption and also one of the previous panels so we basically will also build on what was has been said there and to kind of set the scene i think currently three main developments are seen in the crypto space the first one is about retail investors like more and more investors go into the space we've seen numbers for the us in the biden's executive order with like 16 of all american adults investing into crypto and for the euro area according to ecb data like 10 and i think that's really a lot maybe when the blockchain convention started some people said it's still a nice topic right but i think also this event shows that it's not that niche anymore it's the first the second we also do in an institutionalist to see in an institutional context that it's get more and more tractions right so traditional payment service provider go into crypto buy startups offer services and the third and i think this is like kind of the negative it's like let's say crypto winter or in the morning we had the term crypto hurricane because it's something which maybe goes away earlier who knows we don't know but on the short term of course this seems to be kind of negative but we've also discussed previously in other panels that maybe this is positive you know on a long run at least so this is just important to set the scene but we go if we go directly into the topic i would like to basically get the stage to you so welcome maurice kelly georgie and leslie and yeah let's just start with a quick introductory round so maybe we start with you maurice first uh yes no problem thank you my name is maurice mchale i'm the ceo of huddle and huddle is an investment firm in cryptocurrency we offer retail investors family offices and institutions access to cryptocurrencies in a diversified portfolio i have a background in traditional finance and i saw the light somewhere in 2019 and we're based in the netherlands but we're also opening funds in spain luxembourg swiss at the moment hi guys i'm kelly peterson i'm on the institutional sales and trading team at coinbase institutional based in london covering the emea market uh looking after the spanish market the middle east and a variety of other client segments i started off my career in banking in new york uh moved to the uk with an investment bank moved into crypto in 2018 uh i was building a few different fintech crypto institutional focused startups um and one got bought by coinbase last year and is one of the fundamental premises of the coinbase prime brokerage platform for trading and analytics hi guys my name is george avenov i'm a vice president of risk strategy and trading operations at nexo i have a traditional financial institutions slash banking background going on 20 years but in addition to that i began uh i built my own mining rig in 2013 and got involved with crypto at about that time thanks hello i'm leslie i'm from view.com i'm at the half of bd um actually i'm not just providing service for selling or different sales activities but i also provide the new products new service you know in this in the company and actually i joined the industry for four years i mainly serve clients in also in asia so that we can have some more communications and just ask me if you want to know something in asia and i'll tell you thanks yeah thank you very much i think that's a very interesting lineup and yeah i have the pleasure to moderate the panel so i'm at jonas i'm currently chairman of the digital euro association and head of digital assets and currencies at itonic and now we have good have a very good introduction around so let's start with i think a very basic question i think you get these questions probably all day long let's say what are the reasons to invest in crypto or put differently which assets do crypto assets have that other assets maybe don't and this is a question to all of you um i can start i think it's um very important if you look at how the the world globalized over the last decades and if you can see that we're doing business all over the world via internet we also need something um that that does payments and other stuff on the internet so that's the basis if you look at the technology there's so much possible within cryptocurrencies and you can see that uh the need and the trustless the borderlessness and any other frictionless aspects of the crypto are really interesting and if you look at the broader perspective of a portfolio you look at the other assets it's getting more difficult so in the old days when i was in the traditional finance i always said cash is king um but yeah with 10 inflation uh at some point i think we're in in all the western countries between seven and double digits it's hard to have your your bank account look at it and see it sort of become less over the years so you need alternatives and if you look at the alternatives there aren't many at this point bonds is a no-go area because the interest rates are going up i think stocks are quite overpriced i don't know how many teslas we need to sell to get that price uh the price earnings level uh at some point but um real estate is difficult so there's not another out there and if you see something that is technically advanced uh still early days and um yeah you're very interested in these perspectives of the youth which is our future um yeah that makes sense that um that it should be part of your portfolio how much uh we will discuss that later for sure i think i i can take maybe a little bit of like a different angle to it um [Music] paul tudor jones who a lot of you guys probably know of um put together a white paper uh back in 2020 in may and he he titled it the great monetary inflation and it basically looked at bitcoin as a proxy for other crypto assets um but how bitcoin compared to financial assets um and gold for example and um and basically he compared bitcoin you know as potentially a store value when it comes to an inflation hedge and i know this story has maybe changed a little bit in terms of inflation but he looked at it against four key kind of criteria areas and one was trustworthiness one was liquidity one was portability and one was purchasing power and he did kind of a bit of a methodology wrapped around that and while bitcoin um came in last amongst kind of this comparison to other assets it's really interesting i think because bitcoin um the market cap of bitcoin um is super super small like relative to gold or financial assets or other assets you might include in a portfolio so bitcoin actually is only the market cap is like 1 1200 i think versus like financial assets market cap generally or 160th of gold financial market cap in general um so i think you know when you look at that um it makes like a really interesting use case to say you know bitcoin or a proc bitcoin as a proxy for other uh crypto assets uh could potentially be looked at as a strong potential as part of a portfolio and even though maybe the inflation story has changed bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies um especially bitcoin has been a top performer i think through and through and we've seen you know compounded annual growth rates of you know over 200 percent i think it outperformed gold by 100x over the last 10 years so i think you know kind of coming at it from building on what you said from a different angle i think that's a really interesting kind of white paper to look at and to think about from a very serious um you know hedge fund player in the market so to me in addition to all the features of crypto that were mentioned that were compelling another feature is the fact that currently crypto markets trade 24 7 365 no weekends no national holidays and what have you true price and risk discovery in real time around the clock year round and that to me is compelling and yes the market is down uh crypto is part of the junior part of the credit stack the junior part of capital stack and it gets you know punished heavily during periods of volatility market volatility but in the grand scheme of things if you have a long-term view of the market and if you look at the credit crisis and what some of the high-yield you know ohio bonds and what the clos did subsequently if you have a longer term view of your portfolio and your investment strategy i would argue that you need to scale into crypto exactly the time when everyone else is selling okay um for actually i believe that most of people work for crypto or join crypto for a long time and you get the answer already why we we should portfolio in crypto right because the new and fancy right but for the newcomers i would think that um because um for traditional and he was talking about commodities stocks funds right and cryptos and other new things why don't you try something new right and you will put the portfolio into separate things and actually um uh more and more people join crypto and more people thinking about in in metaphors in in digital world we can divide the real reality and crypto in two world and we can do something with do some arbitrage between the real world and in your crypto why don't do so so i think um it is not to care about um yes or no but talking about how much you should put in crypto so that you can earn more things and on the other hand like change strategies we have to know what kind of chances that you could use and if you join crypto you'll get more chances so why not right so lots of different advantages and quite a bullishness i would say in this panel so about real-time payments 24 7 payments worldwide payments um and also the like potential inflation hedge maybe let's say another question we we often have right is the question okay i want to go into crypto but like in which one right and of course it's now important to say it's no investment advice or a standard disclaimer applies but how would you select suitable crypto like tokens you would invest in what like your categories let's say well obviously kelly has the on-ramp so but there's different ways to go into crypto i think everybody knows that here um most are just with a broker and an xj or an exchange which is your your first your your first bitcoin buy probably and from there on you look further and and as you said there's no investment advice but there are so many cryptos out there you need to do your research um that's the start but it's not only about selecting the right to reser the right coins due to the research but it's also how do you keep them safe how do you make sure you're doing the right stuff and how how do you make sure that you um keep tracking the markets and i'm not surprised if anything happens to a coin that you saw that did something else then it actually does um so there's multiple ways to get into crypto i think the first one is just by yourself if you go more professionally yeah you're looking for professional parties centralized parties that will do it for you that holds your cryptos etc um and yeah one of the on-ramps i personally also use is coinbase so uh i think kelly could uh could explain why that this is a good idea yeah sure um i think yeah in terms of not giving investment advice we need to be really careful there um but i think a lot of people look at crypto as a starting point by looking at market cap you know you can really kind of consider maybe market cap as a proxy for the value that crypto you know that that crypto or that crypto um you know economy around it um has derived and the potential future of the value that it will accrue over time i think market cap though is maybe potentially super simplistic and i think we've seen that potentially blow up in terms of the 40 billion event we saw a few weeks back with the whole terra luna algorithmic stablecoin situation i think there's other ways to think about crypto in terms of thematic investments so you can look at metaverse or gaming or l1 or l2s you could overlay that with market cap you know you could think about a lot of different ways i think to access the outset class um i think in terms of maybe easier ways to kind of get into crypto we at coinbase we work with a lot of institutional partners and clients and they basically use coinbase prime brokerage where they can basically kind of get access to a one-stop shop between trade execution by getting access to multiple liquidity providers plus trade financing lending borrowing and custody staking the list goes on a lot of these institutions i think start as a phase one um you know looking at crypto basically as a speculative asset to trade to get you know to know to maybe make a quick profit off of and then as a phase two they really start thinking about okay how does this how is this asset class and potentially the blockchain as well going to disrupt our business model uh how are we gonna kind of diversify into new revenue streams um that's what we're starting to see today in terms of how clients and are thinking about accessing crypto and testing crypto obviously with the reprice as well in the market maybe there's a nice opportunity for some of these firms to come in and and play around um adding on that though i think if you don't want to directly invest in crypto we are seeing other ways that institutional investors might come into crypto they may get exposure through like an etf or an etp uh you don't have to then custody the crypto asset maybe you get exposure to a basket of assets of crypto companies um or blockchain based companies um you may buy gbtc or eth which is grayscale's trust you know that can be another interesting way to get exposure maybe you get exposure through a hedge fund maybe you buy um coinbase's you know stock share or you know a coin i guess is the the ticker or some other kind of um crypto public or blockchain kind of public companies to get some indirect exposure so i think there's a lot of different ways to kind of tap into the market depending on your risk appetite depending where you are in the stage of your journey and i'll approach this question from a slightly different you know angle from an institutional money allocation standpoint you need to look at an asset class that has the track record for you to backtest your thesis and your portfolio strategy right and so if we look at the inclusion potentially of a crypto asset as an alternative asset class to a traditional portfolio you have to basically have enough data to do your back testing and look at your you know risk return correlations so in that context you know all else being equal i'm not a bitcoin maxi per se but i would say really if you look at the track record we have maybe a theorem in bitcoin probably bitcoin with sufficient you know history here live market data and volume data to give you that level of comfort in terms of making your portfolio the allocation decisions uh as far as the others i think you know time will tell and we're certainly going through a cycle here where we're going to see who's swimming naked right everybody's using this these this saying these days but i think that will be one way to allocate into an up into a into a bitcoin allocation uh as an alternative asset class in terms of selecting the right vehicle this is my opportunity for a shameless plug uh maxwell rolled out about two months ago our prime brokerage tool which uses smart order routing and what that really does we're very proud of this capability we basically look across 20 different exchanges in the market to route large orders depending on the liquidity conditions at each one of these exchanges which is a tremendous advantage if you think about in a highly volatile market environment where liquidity is something that you that determines the execution efficiency of your order and so uh i'm i'm touting this because if you're an institutional investor that would like to get the most you know the optimal execution uh you know in a very difficult market potentially this is the way you want to go from my point of view i don't suggest to buy specific tokens or what i really suggest that we should buy with strategies and trade strategies how to hatch because in different market situations there will be different chances like in the blue market i i think holding bitcoin is of course a good good try right but in a bear market um i think we should do more option trading because like buy input it would be another insurance and to hold the price and this is what actually bit.com is offering uh because we have we have a provide different derivatives like perpetuals options trading and especially right now there are more and more trading strategies in in the markets and many trading teams um wherever they are located in europe and in asia they also do different arbitrage so i would suggest that um for newcomer we should join um the market by buying funds first because professional things and uh it should be done by professionals right and we can buy uh choose products over there and especially when you choose any funds you will have to check several datas as mentioned like the nav and also drawdowns and all the also the aum that they are holdings and what strategy we have to make sure that don't be cheated because there's so many many fakers in the market so so we have to ask some for professional like all the guests here since then you can give some advice thanks yeah let's now also for the for some part of the discussion focus on like the impact of like the recent crash we have seen right and kelly you were also saying about or telling about this initial narrative we we have or i had about bitcoin for example being a version of digital gold so like an inflation hatch which is i personally still believe i still believe in the story but also the crash often people say yes is this narrative now over so it would be as you brought it up kelly be interested in you of you like do you think it's it's like maybe um not just there yet right because we just have like 15 years of track record or do you think it's just proven wrong of this narrative you know i think this kind of like brings me a little bit to the like allocation question i think um around like how much do you actually allocate um and you'll see why when i explain i think you know there's been there's tons of models out there and portfolio modeling tools that talk about like how much would you allocate and there's been a number of them that have been focused on on bitcoin uh for various reasons and um you know i think i think what i talk about next will kind of play into kind of answering your question um there's two companies out there that i've been looking at a bit more around how they've done their portfolio modeling one is bitwise it's just it's crypto asset manager and one is man group who i'm sure most of you know it's a very large hedge fund um bitwise actually put together a study that looks at allocating from like a traditional portfolio 70 30 split um looks at allocating one percent two and a half percent or five percent of of crypto to the portfolio and kind of what that looks like um over the course of you know a number of years and basically the sharp ratio increases by 2x um and i think that's that that says a lot and man group study actually is very much correlated to the same result it's actually a 2.3 um sharp ratio of course to your point there's max drawdown profiles etc but i think there's still a really strong case um with five percent of btc today um over the course of a 10-year time period or a longer term time period as a more passive investor to make that case whether to invest right now in btc or in ether others you know i i i can't i don't know um well that will be you know foreseen i guess but i do think it makes a a really strong case um despite just this inflation hedge i think actually looking at like the fundamentals the way the portfolios model modeled the quantitative modeling that they do i think it it does prove out not just from crypto native asset managers but also from the one of the largest hedge funds in the world so we have one to five one until five percent like in the room as a number as a fraction um which couldn't be bad to to have a portfolio in crypto like what would uh what what would the other set like similar spend so as you said i don't provide investment advice i'm not an investment manager or what have you so standard disclaimer here i would answer this way you if you're a portfolio manager and you have your thesis and your long-term view of your investment strategy you should not be picking tops and bottoms right you should not be timing the market and you know maybe you would think after the recent sell-off that this is a good entry point but maybe it is not my point is if you're scaling into a portfolio strategy you're looking at the long-term horizon and you should have the conviction to basically sustain your portfolio strategy including the volatility and pnl that comes in the interim periods crypto is very volatile i mean they've been periods where we've gone down 10 standard deviations looking back the last couple of months and certainly we've seen plenty of cases where crypto has swung right back with 10 standard deviation upsides and all i can say is going back to the credit crisis the portfolio managers that basically allocate and get allocated at the bottom of the cycle regardless of whether or not they picked the timing right we were very happy uh in the subsequent years yeah if you look at it from a correlation perspective as well when i started in 2019 people were telling you it's uncorrelated then it doesn't correlate with anything and then they're talking about bitcoin um and that shifted so it's it became a risk asset for institutions um you see parallels with nasdaq stocks but you never hear somebody talk about the correlation between high-yield bonds and tech stocks which is there as well obviously so it's just a risk perspective and i think you could see it in the end of 2019 when the first institutional adoption was talked about and there was that bull run uh 2020 then end of the quarter so april 2021 you saw a decline in the markets and i think a vast part of that was that just rebalancing so a lot of institutions went in and said okay one one two maybe maybe three percent in bitcoin bitcoin doubled in the or almost doubled in that period and so they just end of the quarters just rebalancing which okay is it this is now six percent of my portfolio it's too much i just need to sell a bit um and i think that's how they look at it just from the risk perspective risks or risk on you would see um that definitely the cryptocurrency we will go faster up than all the other assets if it drifts off like it's now um yeah we're in a what do you call bear market and bear markets and cryptos are difficult because what's a bear market an official bear market is a 20 decline well in crypto that's a week so we've we've go for bear to bull to bear the bull if we measure it like that but if you look at just the general um inflow from institutions and when are they buying whether they're selling it's it's they're interested they they definitely want to go in what the entry point is and what the accept percentage is we'll never know but they will set a percentage somewhere i think between one and five to begin with maybe later on when it's a more mature market it will up a bit but then the volatility will go down as well so i think uh it also to do with the risk for my point of view i think um it's not talking about how much allocation or what you think but on the other hand the how what what kind of wrist control or what kind of risk they can bear because um during business moments there's so many big well that crashed um the common factor that they have is they haven't done a very good risk control even though they're very good background they have many good team members in their companies and they really make a lot of money in the past few years but on the other hand they haven't done some very [Music] sophisticated risk control do that make them happy in a bad situation so far for i think whatever how much you you can do risk control is the first thing you have to bear in mind and on the other hand um the more risk you can you can get more um profits so in the balance you have to choose and or average person or you need institutions like the people in yeah then then just go and all in right and if if you you think it is just part of my portfolio then you can see about that so it is not depending on how risky it is but what kind of risk control you can do oh yeah i think i think that's really important right also the time horizon matters if it's like me or us investing or like people that like retire in two years and and allocate parts of their portfolio into crypto and you mentioned emory's again the the bear market and i would like just to to talk about this because i think that's the topic that we currently have and we also have it one is the logo here right now it's now it's time to to build in the spare market and for me the question would be what do you think how does this affect institutional investors because we have seen that um lots of institutional investors have gone into the crypto game there are still i guess a lot too a lot to come but what does it mean for them like do you think some of them will now like kind of stop their projects or say oh now it's like cheap so if i get my clients uh using bitcoin now it's a great time what would your guest be um they're definitely still very interested also most institutions represent clients behind them um so that means if the clients demands of us for a product they will definitely look into it and they also see there's a lot to gain on the profit side obviously with the volatility um the i think the the main blocker at this point is the waiting for the regulation um so where you see that uh for example in europe we're still i think two years away from a regulator regulatory perspective and if you want to regulate now in one european country then that's fine but if you go to the next european country you have to do it again and again and again so it's a bit bit awkward because we're saying we're one european union and then you don't have a regulatory perspective it's coming but it will take time i think the u.s is a bit faster i think it will be there within a year from now probably it will be be outlined and that means that the traditional institutions get more more handles to to be in a sort of trusted environment to invest and that's what they need and what was also mentioned in the last panel they need professional parties they need full servers they need to have risk models attached to it they have to have all the things they have in their other assets but it's not a question if it's more the question when and if you say is now if they're still interested now yes i don't think they look at at the market swings for interest they just look at it is the an asset i can sort of on a safe way put into my portfolio i i have to agree i probably don't have too much more to add i think the institutional demand that we have seen over the last year hasn't kind of um you know depreciated during kind of the last three to six months um i think we've continued to see all the clients we're currently working with completely committed to the asset class i think and also a lot of new clients coming in still i think it's relatively kept the pace with the last year for us i think a lot of institutional clients are committed long term to like a much broader crypto strategy or blockchain strategy or web3 strategy and i think they know given um they have a lot to learn and test from crypto as an asset um that you know the opportunities i think really lie ahead and i think a lot of financial or institutional investors also have been through various you know down cycles in tradify and you know i don't think they're looking at a nascent market that maybe has growing pains or you know challenges with regulation which will always be the case innovation is always going to proceed regulation people understand i think that dynamic and i don't think they're kind of faltering in their commitment to to the market overall and um that's yeah that's kind of what we're seeing on the desk at coinbase not much to add on this one other to maybe basically say that in a bear market and it ties to what i previously said the in the risk of regime the all the capital all investors basically uh fly to safety right so uh in terms of the appetite across the board for uh the junior part of the capital stack stocks you know high old bonds crypto all those asset classes have seen tremendous volatility in the last couple of weeks and months what have you but ultimately i'd like to think that smart money actually sees the long-term value proposition blockchain is here to stay just looking at how many people are here and all the businesses and the companies that are building you know everything around crypto and blockchain is really actually exciting so i think with a long-term view i would like to think that uh you know this is the time you want to scale when if you have an appetite opportunistically to invest in a you know on an alternative asset class you want to get into crypto now at times like like these that would have actually been the great closing word but we still have time so we obviously don't close and maybe one yeah one additional question to you leslie or do you want to comment on uh maybe let me continue the questions first all right because um why you think about institutions um actually they they will invest in either prime markets or secondary markets for prime markets actually uh quite a lot of projects valuation is dropping down and even um the valuation for serious b or c is lower a so it's a very good timing for them for them to go shopping right now so actually quite a lot of prime investors they're waiting for this moment so actually they're coming okay for secondary markets like different training teams or training firms actually um the train strategy has to be changed um there's no one um no one unique train strategy can survive in or in bamboo right so during this moment actually they are still working hard and and um improving their strategies and see it what's going on and what um can we trade next so actually we should slogan in bear market we build so for either prime markets or secondary markets we all coming in and doing something new so i think it's not a bad moment but on the other hand it's preparation for the next buu market great yeah so thank you very much i think we have ten more minutes which is good and we also got like five minutes uh on top like in the beginning so now we would use this ten minutes also to give the stage to you guys so we haven't had a lot of questions or haven't had enough time this morning for questions so now you have the opportunity to ask some questions to the panelists so maybe we have a mic for the audience we could um pass and i'm not seeing anybody so maybe a person could go around and pick the people with questions we can't see you so if you have a question just shout out somebody in the middle up halfway up thank you for the presentation so i'm ali kasab chairman of centurion regulated crypto exchange in estonia my question is a little bit straightforward how do you protect your investors from the kind of uh crash that happens against luna for example which is something that everybody is asking how come a big fund like luna which has a 40 billion dollar market cap could still uh go to zero in let's say a protected market uh and supported mike by so many big investors and institutions like microstrategy grayscale elon musk etc what have you done for i mean to to protect your investors in this situation it's it's kind of three questions in one but uh i will start with the first one um so so luna an algorithmic stablecoin i think that was just presented as a stable coil which it wasn't um there was on the last panel as well if you did your research you think an 80 to 20 yield is not sustainable um you know there's there's there is a is a fast risk on it on the on the collateral in this case it's a it's an algorithm and somebody sort of breached the algorithm and said okay this is not working i'm going against it and and they broke it um why did it it went up to 40 billion dollars it's probably most of the people that invested in it didn't understand which product they were invested so there was a stable coin panel already it was explained very well um i think it wasn't a disabled card it's just marketed as a stable coin and people didn't do their research so so that's one yes well maybe i can um uh add on because actually it is not talking about how we like our institutions can protect the users but on the other hand for the traders they have to know for every trading they have to hatch their positions instead of just holding because if it's holding then why you have to put all the eggs in one basket right so we should also allocate all our assets even tokens in order to diversify our risk so it's not about a platform but all that on the other hand he's talking about your risk control so this is i think um this is my suggestion so to add to this answer actually uh so the nut in a nutshell the answer is you have to manage your liquidity very carefully at the top of the pull cycle in order to anticipate the bear cycle so uh you know you want to have a balance sheet that is basically uh you know that can react and you're protected from a risk management standpoint if certain liquidations begin right in for next so for example our loans our algorithm the loan to values algorithmically you know controlled and maintained much like a margin basically loan on an exchange so we're very very uh good at managing that risk risk management is critical being able to manage your liquidity by not over levering when it's easy to do so at the top of the cycle is another way to ensure that you don't get into trouble yeah the other part you mentioned was a microstrategy i think that's a whole different story because he just turned his um his company into a bitcoin etf um and i think that's that's a risk you that that's very obvious i mean you either they take a position or not but that just goes along with the bitcoin price yeah let's go for another question just just i wanted to add something i mean nexo uh freezed withdrawal at a certain time after the collapse of luna or in the past recession i don't think we actually did and if if you are uh what happened i mean i saw a lot of uh exchanges or financial institution freezing withdrawal we'll talk about decentralized finance and at the same time luna was a decentralized stable token uh with a huge collateral on uh bitcoins and we we found that this is i mean this is uh something like very sad for the crypto community and blockchain what happened to to luna i mean or other uh financial institutions so we saw babel finance celsius etc and we can name it so the the question is we are talking here about the future of finance what we can do to protect the future of finance and investors from this kind of manipulation this is a big question because you are part of the leaders and innovators in this field so i i think there is a big question mark to ask ourself here after i mean i we we saw the crypto moving from 2017 and going through a lot of volatility but a certain time if you look at the investors who are coming into this field we should avoid them this kind of big volatility that can make them just disgusted from this field specifically to your comment about nexo the crypto market is still in its nation stages right we're very small compared to a 40 trillion dollar equity market compared to 140 trillion dollar bond market and capital inflows and outflows make our asset class very volatile but that's a that's an opportunity if you're a day trader it's a good thing and a bad thing right and that's that's a separate question specifically about redemptions and withdrawals next to what no time has suspended any of any of these things our competitors might have done that but i can tell you for a fact that we did not with specifically with regards to luna in the event that the market had a dislocation or an event where price discovery might have been uh hampered we might have put a pause on these redemptions specifically with regards to luna but that is in the interest of protecting our account holders we have over three million account holders we have to worry about okay so let's come to our last question yeah it's working all right so yeah my question is about uh or more like a thing i just wanted to know about like how do you guys see like the structured products what we call in uh d5 like defy option vaults like dovs uh how do you see those products evolving through like different sorts of markets like how leslie was mentioning you know you need to just maintain your uh risk it doesn't matter what what sort of a market is it so i just want to know like uh could you uh like come like numbers that you're looking at in terms of like uh traditional finance coming into those uh yeah crypto products through structured products exactly yeah thank you yeah so maybe to leslie maybe you can respond quickly because we just have one minute i don't know actually i know quite a lot of big names he's coming he's already in in the marquez i don't mention the name right here but i can tell you that really quite lots of big names already coming it come and for device options or or every c5 options i think it's it's all talking about hedging and for every structural product you have to do the hedging and or after price what because you know um in the markets bitcoin is coming from money machines and they need to hatch with buy options uh in order to lock up their profits so option trade is really really good products and for them and for other holders uh because especially because it's a symbol of our industry they also want to hold right so so my thing is whatever is uh the product is underlying is talking about the file c5 i don't care about it i'm just talking about um how they they hatch and whatever is it perpetual futures to spots or options and um to to to spot also also fine but it's um it's not that easy so so we have to work with some professional teams and a good platform of course like without comma and in order to do the other settlements yeah i wanted to just add lastly to that um i'm not a structured product specialist but at coinbase we um recently have created a team called crs it's called coinbase risk strategies and this is exactly what they're looking at so it's still in the infancy um but we're spending a lot of time with clients that are a little bit more crypto savvy and a bit more open to kind of structuring products with us and we're working on various ways to create structured notes um or give them access to various defy you know lending strategies for example or running you know different models on the basis trade to give them exposure to risk and we're doing that in a way where we'll take a percentage of that risk and you know they'll take on a higher percentage of that risk and probably more of the downside risk than we will but it's very much kind of early stage and we're structuring it based on kind of a very high touch white glove approach one to one with the client right now and we're getting those learnings with kind of friends and family larger institutions to be able to continue to build on exactly what you asked great yeah so thank you very much maurice kelly georgie and leslie for these great insights really thank you very much also thank you for your great question that was the panel and yeah enjoy the next one [Applause]