BBW24 – Day 3 – Blockchain in Capital Markets: Transforming Financial Landscapes

I'll let the others introdu I'm Jeremy with chain view Capital we have a hedge fund and a VC I run the VC side of the business Drew uh co-founder and CEO of arch lending we're a wealth management and private banking like platform for people with alternative assets we focus on lending primarily against these assets Bitcoin and others included hi I'm Analise Osborne it looks like we get to know everyone by name here because we got a small crowd um I am chief business officer at Cadena which is a layer one proof of work blockchain that founded by two JP Morgan gentlemen back uh five years ago it's been live um I also have a book that just came out this summer called from hoodies to Suits innovating digital assets for traditional finance and I brought some but I left them in my car but I will leave some uh in there after the after the panel thank you awesome guys thank you for that um I guess let's start by talking about what are capital markets right I think you know some folks might know what what exactly uh that those words are and some folks may not but what are capital markets for each of you in your own business what what does that mean lending markets and you know Capital going into early stage startups it's the most relevant uh areas to to me yeah quite similar I mean like Capital markets is just the intersection of people with money and people seeking it um and so for us as a lender and a startup we raise Venture Capital but we also raise debt Capital um and so we talk to private credit funds and and and different debt Capital sources um to raise to then further lend out to our customers mine is more traditional I've always been focused on how do we upgrade Finance so I worked in traditional Finance for 15 years mainly in structured Finance but I have done kind of m&a and different uh different hats um so I've always been focused on how do we how can we make um institutional digital assets digital assets kind of in the regulated space how do we recreate bonds how do tokenized funds how do we create uh private Market assets that are more efficient um and and affected more broad spectrum of people than do today awesome um Analise let's start with you now in an Ideal World what are some of the best in your opinion in your experience use cases for tokenization in capital markets so I love fixed income I will I put that out there first um if you think about any bond or any transaction it's really it's really a legal documents an Excel spreadsheet talking about where the money goes and flows and that if it's an Excel spreadsheet it can be it can be um it can be put into a smart contract right it can be programmed and so that thought process of having fully automated bonds um to me is super exciting fully automated servicing so that is that is obviously something that is near and dear to my heart because I think that can be done we just need to upgrade the systems and the interoperability for that I also think that obviously the tokenization of funds is something that has taken off um there it's been proven to have a I think for anything to happen you have to either increase revenue or you have to decrease expenses and so uh if we look at if we look at loans that have been done Mike Kagney and figure have been able to highlight 150 basis points in savings um then if we turn to tokenization of funds Franklin Templeton uh believes that all funds will be tokenized because they have been it's so much more efficient and effective uh I also think it opens up the the investment since it's more efficient and it it's a lower cost to bring on new investors you don't have you can open up private Equity Funds to lower minimum buyin and that I think is really advantageous to kind of average average investors and average investors you have to kyc AML and you have to be accredited for certain issues I think that's a big step too but also my other one that I will say for my three is programmable money so I feel like um you know we'll talk about digital dollars we'll talk about stable coins I feel like I feel like a stable coin and and uh PayPal's offering of a stable coin to 436 million wallet holders that don't even realize there's blockchain behind it I think that's really going to push the markets for adoption yeah I think um one piece and we're working on it on our side is really tokenizing private credit and so here we've raised like a warehouse facility and we're in the process of tokenizing that so that other institutional investors can buy the debt and make it more transactable and so you go from a private one toone transaction to opening up the world of people that can now get access to this asset class yeah for me um I I'm really in the camp the you know New York London Singapore are pretty established uh efficient Capital Market you know hubs um certainly you know for us institutional adoption saving 50 bips 100 bips is significant but you need you know quite a bit of volume uh to you know incentivize adoption for me I'm more excited about emerging economies and you know onchain Finance brings uh transparency and Trust um and it makes a lot of you know projects and opportunities investable um compared to you know the latter uh you know traditional route so that that's what I I'm pretty focused on uh with regards tokenization awesome and um I guess anise you mentioned a few different use cases institutional use cases mostly where do you see the roadblocks let's just take uh fixed income right tokenizing fixed income um where are the biggest roadblocks is sort of mass adoption of that sure I kind of I kind of look at three roadblocks for Mass adoption as well one is education which to be honest which is why I wrote the book because I feel like not everyone understands the benefits of this technology uh which includes regulators and legislators um in the US I think that's a big hold up I think if we look specifically at um fixed income more is being done in Europe uh there's a lot of bonds that have been done in Europe um as tests there I think the second is regulation which is the reason it's been done in Europe is because mic is a little bit more open in regulation and it's it's not gray in the US a lot of the regulation is gray and you need to be black and white you need to know what you can work with otherwise institutions can't touch it uh and then the third is interoperability which takes a couple different hats one it's how an institution operates with a chain how are they have if we're going to get rid of intermediaries we still need to have those intermediaries generally from a regulatory perspective so like transfer agents and different and the like um but also the interoperability kind of be between chains is you know if I'm wearing my crypto hat it's between chains if I'm wearing my institutional hat it's from institutions a lot of the say for a bank for example each department has built on top of their teex stack and it's different than the other department within the same bank because a lot of that has to do with regulation and having to track like keep your records up to date and so people it's just easier to build and so that is more difficult when you have like people build like things are cobal in the very like lower levels and that like versus apis that you can plug into onchain so I feel like that's the third um in like problem with adoption have you seen any progress from say 5 years ago or however many years ago to today five years years ago um I not as much as I would have hoped right so I feel um for example we go back to 2018 which was six years ago now and the Aspen coin launched and the Aspen coin was a fractional the digital uh shares of a hotel in Aspen Colorado and it offered also utility benefits because one of the things that that this technology can also do is offer utility benefits like uh upgrades and champagne and all sorts of different things it could have monetary value could technically break away but um not as much has happened I think one of the problems is the buy side right I don't think there's we can create you know it's it's a balance we can create products but I don't know that people are there necessarily to buy them because I don't think the benefit has been brought out that the that like the cost benefit analysis of of having large institutions actually worry about custody them gotcha thank you drew in your world you mentioned you you guys raised a warehouse facility I presume that is that from um traditional trafi type of place or or a crypto uh focused or Collective of companies yeah so we had term sheets from both but uh we went with Galaxy who's more of a a crypto focused lender gotcha and and what I mean what if any roadblocks if you're imagining sort of an ideal scenario where Warehouse facilities could could be tokenized for example what sort of roadblocks exist in that yeah I I think you basically are mimicking a regular securitization and so a few things that come up like one is just on and off ramps I think like most people think they're solved but when you're moving like serious amounts of dollars um even we run into like hurdles of just limits at various companies you have transaction fees that are still quite High relative to what they ideally should be um and then the second piece is also accountability So In traditional Finance you have like a Moody's S&P you know rating agencies that then allow larger pockets of capital to invest in these sorts of bonds um but for us you know working with different types of companies that can help maybe verify balances on chain things of that sort um are still needed to unlock that sort of uh sort of feature if you will so more like service provider availability sounds like some technical uh improvements that kind of stuff yeah have you seen are there examples of folks that have done these sort of tokenization that come to mind yeah so I think like for both on the on and off ramps we've seen a company called conduit Financial sort of helping streamline you know uh that transfer between Fiat and and usdc or other stable coin pairings and then in terms of more of like functioning as the rating agency we've seen a company called accountable they're sort of working to ensure that you can have maybe proof of reserves and things of that sort on chain that other investors can look to before they make an investment gotcha thank I want can I add in that the rating agencies do want to be involved and so S&P and Moody's uh both have Department ments and they're always coming out with research because they want to they look at it as a growth area so I know they did things with stable coin and they have rated I know they rated compound previously as well so anyway Food For Thought on that yeah right thank you um Jeremy I know you you invest in equity and you guys raise Capital obviously what challenges you know and opportunities exist specifically in the equity uh space or VC space if you want to focus on that uh specific to blockchain crypto companies I really think it's you know exit opportunities um m&a is uh you know not been what a lot of folks or you know VC folks have have been raising capital on um in terms of you know banks in the US that have been purchasing crypto companies you know there there's probably only a handful at this point um and usually it's for regulatory purpose or adding on to a broader platform so until a lot of the you know larger Financial conglomerates uh you know speed up purchasing I don't think uh you know additional resources will you know continue to flow in what about specific to tokenization do you see any opportunities for tokenizing whether it's at the fund level or or other things uh related to equity uh in general yeah if you can get to economies a scale for example securitize working with black rock and some some of the large larger private Equity firms um you know saving the the you know 50 bips makes sense if you're doing large volumes um you know it it's come a long way there's a pretty big graveyard for tokenizing assets since uh you know 2018 um and it will you know certainly continue um but a a pretty slow pace in my opinion until you know other folks Beyond Black Rock get on board um you know it's going to more pilot programs than broad adoption gotcha okay and Le we talk briefly about uh programmable money stable coins right we have Circle obviously that's a a local company uh how how is how are stable coins participating in the capital markets economy if at all and where do you see uh potential improvements in the next you know year or two that they could focus on sure um I cashed a check a couple months ago took 5 days to clear right I feel like that right there if you're an institution and it takes 5 days which is not that long for an institution transferring money or cross border if I can transfer it immediately then I can put that money to work right away and I think that that is a huge kind of increasing the velocity of money and the opportunities for investment um not just from a personal perspective but from an Institutional perspective that's big if you look at all the money that is from spent on crossb transactions and I used to have this figure I don't remember what it is for last year um it's tremendous and and something like stable coin can help from the institutional perspective now institutions aren't really ready yet I think for stable coin especially if we're dealing in the US because there's questions about uh State there's a bill that's going out about stable coins and there's questions for regulation but I do think that there's big steps um I know that circle is also looking at other economies that have less stable uh currencies uh that they can put it into a stable coin there are we're doing a bunch of deals down in um South America and I think South America is much more crypto oriented parly because of the volatility of their currencies they can put it into a stable coin um I know Banks also are looking at stable coins JP Morgan has their own coin you might be familiar with JPM coin it is an internal stable coin to JP Morgan that they it's backed by depository receipt so it does not leave JP Morgan but JP Morgan clients don't even recognize that a stable coin's being used because they just look in their account uh JP Morgan has also changed with they saved $20 million last year which is kind of a drop in the bucket for the amount of money they've put into technology but it's also a fraction of what they're starting to do for their internal repo so they've been able to price um because this is all programmable they've been able to change repo lending from 24 hours down to the minute and so that is a lot of this cost savings has to do with that and that's when they were only doing about a billion dollars a day and now they're doing almost another zero on that so there's going to be a lot more savings going forward um so that's a different type of programmable money that you have internal there also uh another of other Banks I believe there's four Banks right now that are that have their internal stable coins so that's something to think about too I don't think banks there was a question of banks offering their own stable coins I don't externally I don't think that makes much sense because think about you know the beginning of money right Banks offered all these notes before there was a federal currency so I don't think that makes sense but I do think it would make sense tether nobody tether the instit itions can't use right because it's not regulated though it is the largest stable coin um so you have usdc but I do think there will be more competition for usdc do you feel that I'm sorry if I'm kind of repeating what you just said but do you feel that banks are the best issuers of stable coins or not I do not believe that I think banks um you know banks are in the process of like they're in money they're money movers they're Savers uh they're lenders that's really their business is holding money and lending it out I don't think they should be creating money um I do I just it doesn't seem to me like that makes sense um and that also goes back to the you know early currency I will also tell you that a lot of other Banks don't want to use JP Morgan coin because they're a competitor to JP Morgan and so I feel like there are other opportunities and even look at visa and MasterCard they're playing in the space I think they make a little like as payment companies and the whole rise of fintech has been so focused on payments for years uh I think PayPal makes a lot of sense I think like you know usdc people that are focused on this I think are a little bit more um I think there's more opportunities for them to be leaders look at look at different countries as well sorry look at China right you used to have now they're they're doing a cbdc which is a central bank digital currency but part of that is because you had WeChat and alipay that were two private companies that had a majority of the payments markets and China is a different economy than we are and there's more of a surveillance state so um I do think there's opportunities out outside of Facebook Libra if you remember that um to develop in the US gotcha I think there's two pros and cons to to Banks issuing stable coins and on one hand they could save a lot of money increase margins um the other hand you know their their margins are going to be suppressed if you know uh checking and savings accounts essentially converge right you have a lot of money market funds sweep accounts eventually all idle dollars should be yielding a return for retail institutional alike um that's going to eat away at you know how Banks make money um but on the other end instant settlement you know if they Implement that in the back end they can you know hold on to a lot of that idle cash and ideally get additional yield so it's it's going to be a uh interesting you know next 5 years uh you know how these Banks adopt and what they choose to to you you know push to the market Tru what about yourself how can stable coins play uh play a role in in sort of the the debt the asset back debt that you guys are building do they play a role now or could they play a role yeah I think for us it's really been more so about like speed of transactions and so when we see borrowers that want to borrow in stable coins they can complete a loan application and get funds within 20 minutes and that's unheard of you know in the traditional system where you're playing for a personal loan mortgage things of that sort and so I think the speed is really uh one key component the other is also um like stable coins have existed previously in a different sense like you can think of venmo as one as well you know it's a digital representation money in venmo is not earning a yield and so I think there's ways as um as you were alluding to to bring yield to those assets um so that people can you know mimic what a money market fund looks like and make more use of just actually using them or maybe having them sit idy and saving them if you will okay can I add one also you have automated margin calls right because you can program all your margin calls with with stable coin yeah that's right and so you can you know programmatically say okay I've given out a loan um at this point in time I'm going to do a margin call at this point in time there will be an Auto Liquidation um and all those rules can be nicely like coded in and you and and so the loan is denominated in a stable coin how does the repayment happen is that also in stable coin if they want yeah so so we we're flexible we can give out a loan in stablecoin we primarily use usdc or dollars Fiat and then the repayment can happen in in either one as well do you guys see challenges from you know sort of sovereign federal banks such as you know fed 24 I believe it's called or or fed now I'm sorry it's called which is like a you know an instant payment system which is supposed to kind of settle the same day if I'm I don't have all the facts on it but do you see challenges um um to to stable coins from that yeah I mean I think it's a general win for consumers right like you're speeding up uh the process like stable coins in and of itself as like a business I'm less concerned about but more so um what makes money move quicker what's more accessible transportable things of that sort and so I think actually pushes everyone in the right direction and as you start getting money markets on chain that starts putting pressure on stable coin issuers to maybe start offering some of the yield back um and whether they do it or not is another question but I think all these sorts of things are generally positive uh for ecosystem anyone else thoughts on this yeah I would agree I think Innovation pushes traditional Finance to you know up their game and re-evaluate a lot of the products that they have in the market um especially in terms of settlement speed Etc I will say that fed now is centralized currency which is fundamentally different than decentralized currency so um yes it is faster but I feel like it's not the same as you know transferring money to if I'm settling my accounts or if I'm managing accounts in different countries it's not the you know it's still the US dollar makes sense um in terms of compliance what are some of the biggest challenges that exist as far as tokenizing capital markets right we we have obviously we'll talk I want if we have enough time we have about six minutes left but want to talk about sort of the retail or the democratization of capital markets we have the institutional Capital markets but whether it's in any one of the two what what role where is compliance sit now where do you guys see potential issues today and and and solutions down the road I think the the biggest hurdle to get over is just the legal cost and admin costs that are associated with it still um we're able to yeah exactly if we're able to streamline the the cost of tokenizing assets uh you know it it would be moving much faster but current US regulations don't allow that hopefully someday we'll see yeah yeah I'd agree I'd say like we're more of a cleancut business in that we don't have a token um you know there's a standard sort of set of rules that apply to lenders where there's licenses that are known at the state level but even then there you still face challenges with just opening a bank account and various banks are still hesitant given you have crypto exposure even though it's held out Anchorage and FICO and other well-known institutions so I think there's a lot of work to be done on just making sure there's clarity about what types of businesses you fall under do you have a token are you under you know a different sort of regime or set of rules uh and making sure everyone understands how to appropriately follow these guidelines I have run a broker dealer on the digital asset space I'm very familiar with regulation I am now uh responsible for a blockchain which is not the same regulation but we do have a liquid token so as you mentioned um there's a little more uh I guess people are more critical with the token involved we are a proof of work blockchain um similar to bitcoin is a proof of work blockchain and we have done all of our token sales internationally we have not done any in the US it's actually very difficult to get our token in the United States but we are becoming we're working with more um not because we think that we're security we fully believe that we're a commodity but um it's just we were concerned what have our Founders work for the SEC prior and so we've always been working within regulation um so it's a little bit different from like I'm always I'm always reminding the team we're just the tech layer like we're not going to create Securities or aex or herex like people can create that on us only because we need to remind that we are a technology company and we are not a finance company isn't that amazing that a us-based company I believe you guys are us-based am I correct we are with with an X SEC employee cannot sell cannot raise capital in the US right because of Regulation we were concerned we honestly we always want to make sure that we are following the law we are very legit like legal Orient regulated oriented but um yes understandably so how about democratization like getting you know regular folks whether it's with in this country across the world into some of these uh offerings that are whether they're debt Equity or savings account things like that where where do you guys see that whole thing today and in the near future as relates to tokenization crypto really opens up capital markets to you know the global retail scale um similar how Robin Hood has opened up you know brokerage landscape to uh retail across the Us and other markets um being able to participate in in a you know token offering uh all you need is a phone you can be anywhere in the world with a internet connection so I think there's a a ton of capital that you know hasn't been tapped previously that's you know now accessible yeah I think that's right but then you know the flip side is also just making sure you're marketing these products correctly um you're uh seeing what you actually do and what you realize is actually a lot of retail capital is more mercenary and so you know sort of floating around and how do you actually build a sticky customer base and it all just comes down at the end of the day the product that you're offering and the sort of return profiles as well as um how well the audience knows like what they're investing in because some of these asset classes private Equity um you know esoteric debt is not well known and as a result you end up doing a lot more work just on marketing and and doing user education if you will on what do what these Investments are how they generate returns things of that sort so um I want to take it a light little bit different direction but first I would say I really think that Defi and trfi will merge um and I believe private credit is the first step for that I believe there's just the kyc AML element that needs to be brought in but I also want to point out look at the changing de demographics and the changing d Dynamic so you mentioned Robin Hood Robin Hood um I think 85% of them of the the accounts are under the age of 35 so if you look at Millennial and Jen Z who are actually will be receiving this great wealth transfer which is the change of um wealth going from the Baby Boomers really to Millennial and Jen Z who are half the population and they will have more than the half of the wealth they're they were born with a phone in their hand they were born with a supercomputer and everything is expected to be digital and so I believe that will help speed things along as will AI because you can Pro you can program and code faster um and I think the expectations both from a retail investor and from the companies like Millennials are starting to run the companies and so I think that's also we need to think ahead as opposed to the status quo about where where Finance is moving yeah awesome we have a couple minutes left here I don't know if we have any questions from the Lively audience hey John wh M live uh I'm really curious since we're talking about the transformation uh the whole financial landscape here do you think from the crypto uh like defi right now we can offer better terms for traditional uh like uh lending especially in Like Home Mortgage or a lot of credits right now I think fixed income within defi has a long way to go um just the volatility right now it's not on par with you know treasuring or or Bond markets um maybe eventually when we have you know a defi liore that a lot of financial products can build on top of uh but right now the the speed at which you know rates change and uh yields are bouncing around in defi uh I I think it's going to be some time before you know it reaches the same scale I would also for Home Loans we compete with Fanny and Freddy which are the government-backed entities that are actually guaranteeing loans and offer better rates so until Fanny and Freddy start accepting digital mortgages um it's going to be harder to compete on that rate and which is what people look for when they're looking for a home loan yeah and the last thing I'd add is I think we need two more pieces one is just size um the size of traditional lenders is still going to outpace what the amount of loans that happen in Defi and then the second is really with respect to long-term capital and that's why um as you alluded to the the rates on um some of these protocols just vary every single day and it becomes hard to maybe fix long-term expenses accordingly awesome well I think we're out of time thank you panel thank you audience oh sorry we have okay oh it says zero all right hello everyone great panel thank you very much my name's John clora and a a question I guess for Analise the Mike kagia figure mentioned recently that it's like multiple trillions of dollars of market cap to be disrupted when there are these tokenization of whether it's Home Loans first mortgages and everything else stocks and bonds so of course that could disrupt a lot of these larger institutions because they could generate Revenue in some of those areas but you talk about how there could be the benefits to doing that whether it's a stable coin where you're getting access to the capital sooner and you could reinvest so there's kind of the the tradeoff there can you talk about how institutions are thinking about this and why they're not making a decision to do this or or what the first movers are prioritizing that others are not so I think the way Finance is set up especially if we're dealing with the banks and public companies is if I'm a CEO quarterly I have to respond to my shareholders right and I think the cost of innovation is someone has to bear the cost of innovation and there's always risk associated with that maybe if it works and maybe it doesn't right and so um like Kagney created a huge program and since he had a pro like he had the program he was able to highlight the fact of how much he saved um so I think there's a lot of um people waiting on the sidelines I do think some of the first movers for tokenized funds for example like Franklin Templeton um you know if you look at Franklin Templeton they're a public company but they're more or less private because they're held by the Johnson family so you know there there's not a concern of being kicked out and so I feel like they're thinking it from a family office perspective right a generation of wealth perspective so more into Innovation that said if you look at what they've done they have gone on multiple chains and what they're also doing is not just offering to their current investors um the opportunity to buy these tokenized products they're offering it to the ecosystem of every chain they built on and so it's also thinking about how do we expand because the world is expanding how do we get more retail clients so I feel like they're very thoughtful in that sense I feel like black rock as well is finding opportunities with their they're finding opportunities to make money right look at Ando is more or less built off Biddle which is black rocks tokenized fund um so I do feel there are people Forward Thinking and the leaders and I will say black rock did not say I'm going to be a leader they were that was not the goal a lot of people want to be followers but now that you have the largest bank in the world by AUM and admittedly the bank beneath it is half its size another American bank before you hit a Chinese bank and then you know the largest asset manager in the world is tokenizing as well so I feel like people really need to start paying attention and figuring out how this works it's just one education getting your head around it and two it's hard to recogniz like it's hard to recognize how much money I'm going to save or make and so that's what I think the hold back is because I still get my bonus if I do what I'm supposed to do but if I add volatility in there and Innovation am I still going to hit those marks so I feel like you you're going to have more private companies come out and I do think you'll have companies be acquired um institutions acquire companies that have developed Innovative Tech or things that might put them out of the market I mean that float that's a Jeremy brought up the great point of there's a float right when the bank holds the money they're making money off of it and so they're going to have to find ways to make money off of what they used to make money off of but again we make money when interest rates are high and low right look at the 80s right there's there are opportunities and there's a lot of smart people out there to figure out how to um I'll also put out there the um genz 85% of a study done in the UK get their financial information from influencers think about the whole raia market right you have this whole generation that is going online to a totally different social media source and so I think you're going to have like and I think the more OPP the more bespoke opportunities out there the more you're going to need a financial adviser so how do you attract the the Gen Z which is a huge load of money so people just need to think about business lines and and how do they think forward and not just what they have today or you've got you know you've got Kodak and you've got AOL right you're not adapting to change I'd say from a more macro perspective too it's just you know spreads are being suppressed across the board of all Financial Services um so you know essentially they're becoming you know distribution warehouses with brand names um so they have to stay at the Forefront of new products uh to continue to make money you know in in the future um you saw it originally with payment rails in the early 2000 now there's you know five or six uh conglomerates that control most of the volume you saw the brokerage m&a over the last five years uh I think you know other areas of financial services are going to feel those same Market pressures and uh they they have to stay you know looking to the Future because they know their margins are are going to decrease can I add to that as well look at the largest data companies in the world number one is IBM that's their sole business within the top 10 you have Google and you have Amazon as just data companies it is neither of their core businesses and their web 2 companies but they have created something that uh you know that that competes on a sideline business that is huge and Global in scale I think similarly we will have web 2 companies that come out to rival the size and scale of some of these financial institutions hi my name is Carlos a question how much does consensus impact the capital markets so for example if something's proof of work I thinken is proof of work correct yeah so proof of work versus proofs of stake is that something that Financial financial institutions are really looking at for Capital markets or do they do they not really care how that's being done I would like to think that since proof of stake is technically more secure I'm sorry proof of work is technically more secure than proof of stake because proof of stake you're dealing with um you know whoever has the most money stake is able to um you know is is able to in essence make decision ISS um I will say talking to to institutions they say majority of the world now is proof of stake uh and a majority of the transactions oriented are that so I think that there's a real um that that people very much like proof of work uh and this is the feedback that I get a lot of it has to do with energy consumption they're concerned about what are my investors going to think with energy consumption but then we found a way to do it at lower energy consumption but we're also um you know we're really just coming we're really just coming out now and all the other competition has gone to proof of stake but um so I will say that institutions like proof of work better but they haven't yet built on proof of work because there hasn't had the opportunity after ethereum switched yeah I'd say uh at least from my um experience it's more so been look like this is more of an abstraction to us but what is the ease of use and then what are the economics or savings to me and that's been the key Focus area because the sort of underlying details are important in a sense but really the main driver and incentive for them to invest uh in in these like tokenization is really for the the return or or savings that they're getting and most of them have been trying it out to be honest like there haven't been I totally agree with what you're saying not everyone looks at the technology as deeply as a technologist would uh but they're testing what else is what else is out there I'm pretty excited about uh F Finance on pral work uh it's pretty early at the moment you know defi on bitcoin uh but it it it's coming um you know obviously proof of stake dominates the market at the moment bitcoin's already proven itself um people are starting to realize all right we can actually build on top of Bitcoin um it's going to be slow but it it'll happen all right thank you panel thank you guest thank you thank you