'What's Next for NFTs' - Linda Xie, Jesse Walden, & Marguerite de Courcelle

so we talked about what the value of entities is and uh what i really want to do is transition into how do we think about what is entities uh as a from a really lower level side of it there are there's ways to think about it from what's possible in the realm of uh nfts um and just in general like how do we think about the definition of what they are in this common interpretations of this thing so i want to talk with linda jesse and marguerite about what it means for entities after this and without further ado let's welcome all three of them to chad so thank you so much for joining us uh this might be a slightly tough act to follow after tubador just talking about making history in the last few weeks um but what gets me a lot more excited is is uh three of you get to see what's happening at the very surface level in this ecosystem whether that's from the founders side whether it's from the creativity side or from the investor side and i think this is a really great mix of perspectives that we have here so what i want to do is start us off by just having each of you introduce yourself um and we can start with linda which tell us about who you are and what you do and how you get into the space hi i'm linda i started a crypto fund called scalar capital we invest in all kinds of different things in crypto i previously was at coinbase did a bunch of different roles there and what got me really interested in nfts in particular i came in through the gaming side since i just play a lot of video games myself and i often buy like skins or just video game items and when i stop playing them like all my items are just trapped in this game and like i can't do anything with them anymore going forward so i just have like a ton of hearthstone cars that i just like never see again so i'm i'm just really excited the idea of having nfts just in on the gaming side just be able to like move these in-game assets very freely and so that's kind of how i came into that world and then it's been awesome to see it just flourish into so many interesting things yeah high level description of me amazing margaret bb you'd like to tell us about beyond just freaking blockade hi guys um i've been a creative technologist in this space since like 2013. my entry into this world was through like mining script coins with my gaming gpus so um and from there just started to fall down the rabbit hole of how can we be creative with the blockchain and blockchain technology um started out doing crypto puzzles and um multimedia experiences across the internet and using different pieces of blockchain technology as experiences for people that led to me founding blockade games in early like january 2018 where we focus on nfts as being um a tool for the gaming experience um and so that's kind of where we've been focusing and when we talk about what are all the potential use cases of nfts that's something that we think deeply about amazing um hi i'm i'm jesse i'm the founder of variant which is a investment firm and i i first got started in the space as a as a founder in 2014 um project was called media chain and i think a lot of the ideas around nfts are ideas that we were sort of exploring back then about seven years too early but our goal was to like build what we described as a universal media library where all the world's images video songs game assets etc could all be discoverable in a public ledger in the same way you know bitcoin is is discoverable and attributable to its owner so got into the space through that and have been you know really really excited to see um all these ideas coming to fruition now excellent so um i was hoping that you would bring up media chain so i didn't have to ask specifically but um it's interesting because you pointed out the timing thing and and i think what's been interesting is that we've finally gone to the place where the infrastructure side is getting more and more ready so that people don't have to worry about what's happening behind the scenes and they only have to think about does this click with me as an idea or as a concept and then we've seen an explosion of that in the past two months uh for lack of a better uh condensation of that or but uh what i kind of really want to get into is um there are obviously a few ways to think about what entities are and i think that public perception when entities um are or can be slightly different because it's not as uh as updated on what we think i guess where the space is moving forward so maybe a broad question when i asked and this is for anybody here is how do you think about just creativity in the digital world like do we need to change what the definition of art is right now nfts are sort of analogous to just thinking about digital paintings but that's not that's not it so what changes when we look at digital art oh okay i can take a sab so i mean yeah i think like well i think what you're referring to is like there's this like sort of classical notion of what you know what is or isn't art which is which is also like a funny def like thing to define because i think the art world itself is always trying to wrestle with this and always trying to push the boundaries but when you when like nfts start to call themselves art the art world is somehow a lot of people in our world are somehow trying to argue that no that's that's impossible like that can't be that stuff can't be art um so like the art world's always wrestled with this like deschamps um you know famous urinal was like a statement about what can and can't be art and and we're always pushing the bounds of that and i think um i think that that you know certainly nfts are um are making the internet and internet culture into collectible culture and and then i think it's like in the what is art is really just in the eye of the beholder it's like i don't think it can be defined um universally yeah i completely agree with that and then um at the same time like i think the stuff that's exciting happening crypto is the idea of um groups of people from all over the world can form these organizations and collectively create art together it doesn't have to be a single artist um they can collectively own art as well together so um that part really excites me and um it just the idea of like programmable art just is is really fascinating to me and i think that that's a design space that is going to be explored a lot within the next year or so um and so it just feels like more collaborative and dynamic but i feel like you can't really define what art is because it's whatever people value it themselves i so i have to agree with the program like programmable art because i think um one thing so as a fine artist myself you know i have a fine art degree i was a gallery director and curator prior to really going into the blockchain space um but i really have like it's okay if you're just experimenting and you're a digital artist and you want to maybe make your first nfts but i think the conversation then beyond that is you really need to start thinking about how is this nft experience bringing value to your art and if you can't really participate in that conversation then i i think you're going to have a hard time keeping up with what is going to be considered valuable nft art because these people like i think we saw pack said recently he's um going to be on a sotheby's auction he's does a really good job about bridging generative art or what's possible with nfts and blurring the line between the two so that the experience is is deeper than just uploading a file and you know pushing a button so um it allows it opens up an opportunity for artists and especially digital artists to show a whole new level of genius that should be a part of the conversation that's uh i absolutely agree and i know it was it was less about let's kind of question or it was more of a philosophical kind of scenes added and that is actually true of what it is in the eye of the older and uh yeah like it's one of those things where we're getting to a much bigger surface area of like what can be considered and how somebody can be exposed to thinking about and deciding how to evaluate or appreciate it and it kind of brings me up to uh about 15 years ago when uh when wordpress became um the dominant platform on the open source side and if you would ever look at wordpress's codebase they had this line on every single file and uh the line was code as poetry and uh and that's kind of what got the whole economy of wordpress plugin started and that sort of is what the developers valued as an interesting perspective i think we're seeing that on a lot more ways where now we're looking at visual with with uh the the binary bits so um what i want to kind of ask is i mean a lot of things just came up from it from each of these answers and kind of just prefaces a bunch of topics i want to dig into but maybe for uh for marguerite tell us about what neon district is and and kind of how you think about this as a game as a matter of fact um what kind of are you doing with the game and how do you think about the future of the game so many so many things i could say um so from my different experiences that i had developed developed as a puzzle designer um which were essentially they got to the place that we were essentially making mini games to the point where i don't know if you guys remember pineapple arcade it actually had a bunch of memed games that were blockchain themed and they were games um in arcade consoles or cabinets so um the vision for neon district was how do we come up with an open economy where you can have a free to play gaming model where you can have a play to earn mechanic through the gameplay that can be inclusive to people that possibly do not have crypto as a mission to put nfts into as many people's hands as possible with as little friction as possible with as little blockchain knowledge as possible um that was the mission and and so we shipped uh the public alpha january and we've been working on this game for about three months so we have years of art content and story and the game design itself i think went through multiple iterations but it was a design in process for about 1.5 years so um what i can say though is that we were successful in what we aim to do as we have people now competing for the top position on the leaderboard who have never spent a dollar on the game um and and that to me is very exciting and then also gas fees are handled on the back end we're on a layer two so um players really do have a free to play gaming experience and soon open c is going to be rolling out the polygon matic support so we'll have the same sort of market experience that all these other dots have but the other side of it is that this game is open to the entire world if as long as you have access to a web browser i love that nfts can be a tool that allow people to leverage their talent and skill to participate in what will be the new global economy and um i think we will see more gap developers explore that space i absolutely agree i think uh this is kind of like the high level theme of how do we actually now make the assets that we own productive and uh and that sort of sets up the base for if i'm learning something in the game i want to figure out what i can do with it whether that's combining with other games because if it's an open platform or we're using that to leverage um existing game mechanics or just in general integrate that with outside world that i mean just be outside of the game itself and uh and this is kind of where i think that's a really good piece for us to kind of transition into just thinking about what entities mean outside of art so linda you kind of talked about i think full of things on programmability and generated art and assets um i'm curious to kind of just hear from linda person and firm from jessie and artery um what are some creative things you've seen um with nfts outside of art um any kind of favorite or examples that you can talk about yeah um so there's a lot of stuff happening um so there's just been a lot of projects working on fractionalized ownership which i think is really powerful um allowing people to now have access to these really valuable pieces of art or it could be like very expensive gaming items that now everyone can like own pieces of so there's like niftex fraction.art working on that um i also think what's really cool is the idea of being able to use your nft as collateral in d5 so being able to take out a loan like let's say it represents some really valuable art or real estate or even like social capital like you could stake someone else's time or someone else's like community and be like hey like i own a bunch of this and now like can i take out a virtual mortgage or something um so there's a lot of like cool stuff happening there and um i think uh yeah nft5 is a is a project that's working on using as collateral i'm just what's happening like programmable nfts uh i think yeah i think something that i'd like to see happen is just um like the idea of like artwork changing as time progresses i think that would be really awesome to see not just having static art but um being able to like somehow prove like ownership and visually display like how early you were in something and um and not have that be like you could just buy that and then display it um like later on so i think there's like a lot of cool stuff you can play around there um and then i also um there there was uh so kathleen breitman she was also working on nft stuff really early on and she was talking about the idea of like the importance of having ownership of in-game items and having the history behind that item be really valuable um so an example is like let's say you're playing the game magic and you win a tournament with this deck of cards and now you have these cards that have won this tournament and therefore these cards themselves even though they might be the same as the mother card they can be more valuable just because they won a tournament so there's a lot of really cool stuff happening and i could go on forever about that stuff yeah yeah maybe just to riff on on this last point about the deck of cards and like its history i think um one one sort of interesting idea space is just the fact that the thought that every piece of media on the internet is going to have its entire history be discoverable um on chain right and like that's kind of a new a new thing because you know with with traditional media like a jpeg file when you copy and paste a jpeg from like instagram to tumblr it loses its entire history like you don't know who made it what it's about like you have to go reverse image search and then it's like really noisy to figure out where it's been and so i think that the one one way i like to think about this is like media on the internet has largely been sort of like this flat two-dimensional surface it's just whatever we can sort of see right in front of us and trying to find where it came from is is really hard but now every piece of media is going to have this like z access that we can traverse and like figure out like you know who interacted with it what it's about and that's so haven't seen a whole lot of like people experimenting with that yet and that's because we're still early and the history is not that rich but i think it's one of the most exciting things to explore with nfts because it's net new enabled by the blockchains that these live on and maybe just one one other idea offer up is um so there's there's this project called mirror which is letting people mint essays as nfts um and and that's kind of it's interesting because it's not visual right it's like why would you want to own i think the idea of owning like a you know piece of visual art is very intuitive for people because it maps to the idea of a painting also owning like a game asset is intuitive to people because they that's like a common commonly understood thing from traditional games but then like why would you want to own an essay um and i think the answer there is like well essays are how like big ideas come into the world right so like what if what if like elon musk's next secret master plan that you know he published for tesla was published as an nft um that would be like a really cool artifact to own right so i think that's the base case but i can imagine like you know jack he just recently sold his first tweet as an nft i can imagine like the next jack the next person who's gonna build something as big as twitter you know publishes their their hello world moment for their platform as an nft from inception and that's actually how they fundraise for the project that they're building like so that you know that that and when you think about what is like you know what how would you do that well maybe you'd do it through a blog post or an essay right so maybe that maybe that's actually what mirror is doing is they're you're they're selling nfts for essays but they're really starting like companies right like they're that are projects um so it could go very far let's say uh yeah go for it yeah i have a so i have a lot of ideas about um nfts to enable uh deeper experiences um i think something worth like i was just thinking about this morning um so rolham with dapper labs and that team did a really good job with this concept of moments and basic basically you're taking a piece of time or an event from a a celebrity or you know the players it's their sports history and turning it into a moment is really an idea that can be applied to anything that is consumable content like entertainment content um from let's if you think about a famous director a movie like a series of movies um there's just basically anything can be turned into a moment and in that same line of like the essays when you buy an essay it's like buying a moment of of thought um so i'm wondering if there's going to be a whole like as we see drops as a service if we're going to see people start to do like moments as a service for different people like uh something hits a certain engagement criteria and all of a sudden like in the same way with tweets like oh maybe i should buy this tweet you could so that's really interesting about where we're placing value there's a heavy emphasis on story which actually has me thinking about things like our virtual influencers and how we're going to be blending the two worlds between physical and digital um if you're familiar with i was telling the other day to linda about i um the code miko she is so incredible with what she does with her virtual skins that she produces and then does live streams she change them in real time she like i just saw her take out a flaming blade in the middle of one of her streams and and she has multiple camera points it's very engaging and then the audience can be typing and she'll you'll see their words going across her chest um and so like how is that monetized is she monetizing that um i'm really curious about all the different use cases there nfts directly have a fit for um and then additionally that idea scaling it to event-based experiences so tokenized like you could have tokenized like a swag from your favorite musical artist go to a concert and maybe even the musician has like a tokenized it's basically a cold storage device that has an nft in it with bluetooth and location tracking and then now we all have an augmented reality like phone where we can be interacting with each other and who has it we can receive airdrops on location from the different vendors and artists moments of the performance are now being dropped into my my wallet that's with me um these kinds of game effect gamified experiences won't also like extend that further let's say i own skins like of the performance so like i could change the backdrop that the artist has and you see the big what's being uh displayed and and i've changed their environment maybe i've introduced a monster on stage you can you can that can give both like musical production all the way to improv theater and what that now your actors have to change what they're doing based on what the audience is putting in their hands um these i definitely think in the next five to ten years we're going to see this prototyping and i say that because i'm going to do it that's amazing it's an interesting topic though because i think you're talking about basically having a whole set of tools and accessories to engage with your existing audience and sort of what's interesting to me here is that um jesse your clients thesis is on the ownership economy um obviously there's a lot of things in that category but um we're curious to kind of hear more about what does ownership economy mean to you and sort of how do you think nfcs just kind of overlaps with uh with that and where things are headed from your perspective yeah sure so i guess yeah the the ownership economy idea is that um crypto has sort of like unlocked this new economic model for building networks that are operated and owned by their users um so so like this is sort of the lens through which i look at all of crypto like bitcoin and ethereum i think are the first early examples of networks where there's you know there's no multi-billion dollar networks there's no company um they're they're networks that were built by a community of independent developers who then operate you know run run the software on their computers and mine the networks and in return for their contributions earned an ownership stake in the network through a token and that the the idea is that that same economic model is is going to find its way into every piece of consumer software on the internet and we're sort of starting to see that happen in in d5 and i think nfts are sort of another example where nfts you know make the whole internet ownable right it's not just the platforms but it's actually the media itself and and um when when you think about that i think it has pretty profound um implications in that it sort of like in inverts um the way social media platforms work today where you know like when you upload a file to facebook or instagram or whatever you're you're copy pasting the file to their server and you also copy paste ownership of the media to them in that you sign the terms of service that allow them to monetize that however they see fit um and and so effectively like you're just giving away the ownership whereas nfts allow you to retain that ownership and for anyone to discover that it's yours in the same way you know your bitcoin is yours which is you know verifiably the case without depending on any third-party platform um so so nfts really invert the ownership model of media on the internet and i think it's a it's an important or sort of like formative inflection point for a lot of people um who are new to the space because it's a very easy way to understand oh i can actually own digital property that's truly mine and i think it's only one hop to go from there to the idea well i can actually own a piece of all the internet products and services i use every day which is something you know people in the ethereum community understand very well because that's what's at the core of the success of you know networks like ethereum and bitcoin um so that that's the ownership economy in a nutshell and i think nfts are really exciting like accelerant for the idea that's amazing um i forgot to mention this a bit early but we're getting a lot of nodding heads uh so to speak on on our chat so if you have any questions as the audience you want to ask you want me to ask our panelists please just type them up in the chat and i'll relay those questions uh here directly so i should have mentioned this a lot earlier but we're happy to take any questions as well as we're going through this um i think jesse what you talked about makes a pretty good or kind of sets up a pretty good base for like how people should think about as individuals but obviously if you were to kind of extrapolate from that there's a condensate or there's a way to kind of generalize that and think about communities at scale and this is sort of when i asked linda about dallas you recently wrote a blog post about uh what dows are the future of dallas and how they're interacting with a lot of different parts of our ecosystem whether that's steep high or mts um for for those in the audience i would love for you to just kind of go over a little bit about what dials are and uh how are you seeing creative use cases of daos uh whether it's nfts or dfi or just what you would even like to see um i i do feel like dao is our natural progression of what's happening in crypto and so that was just basically a group of people where you're there's no central management telling what everyone what to do like in a traditional corporation and they organize themselves around a set of rules that are completely transparent and enforced on on a blockchain and um like if you have funds managed by the dow it's all via smart contracts and you can see where funds are moving to and from so it just makes things a lot more transparent and accessible um and i think um just with thousand nfts there's there's like the first progression i think is is um you're seeing uh dows themselves invest in nfts so you're seeing like a flamingo dao investing directly in nft art and owning that you're seeing like a yield guild games uh own like virtual land and the games they're playing and then like actually building it up like virtual real estate so i think that's like the the start and and um i love the idea of people collectively owning this and i think what's cool about dao's is you can be completely anonymous too like you couldn't join a company a traditional company in silicon valley and just be like anonymous and like never reveal your identity but like you can join a doubt like no one knows who you are and as long as you like build up a reputation and you actually contribute like everyone treats you just as any other member and i i love that piece to it and um and so i think we're going to maybe have uh the concept of like dao's issuing nfts to their members to have like badges or identity or reputation that they can have tied to their address and maybe that could even carry on to like other places like hey i'm a really high profile um reputation uh in this style and like i think i can contribute a lot here but no one knows who i am except for my reputation so i think there's like a lot of cool things with nft issuance and then um i also just really want to see like collective art created by dao so people being able to vote on parameters of art and just create art as a group and have it be constantly changing um i was like i was part of a dao that was kind of working on something similar to that it was called saint fame dao and like you would vote on um like what the designs were for these clothing items and like everyone would be like voting on different aspects to it and then the dow itself would produce and sell this so i think it's like really cool you could uh create like digital and physical items here and meta factory is an example of a dow that's kind of bringing together this culture and then actually making clothing items people can wear so i think there's like so much interesting stuff happening in dallas space and we're just at the start of experimenting with that i feel like if i were to ask you follow questions we'll end up using the whole chat for just uh exploring the possibilities so uh maybe the maybe the action i'm here is for all the hackers watching the twitch plays mona lisa uh for for the soccer ball and we'll we'll see what comes out of data and scale um i think the ownership economy the the uh dials in general and kind of how they're letting communities operate um is definitely the natural progression of how do you get more people involved i think what's another interesting piece here is we're seeing personal and social tokens also authorized and margarita you have a personal token uh called coin and uh for her audience i would love to uh for you to get an overview of what these personal social tokens are how do you think about them why you decided to to uh create one and uh and sort of uh what it means to you and what others should be excited about in this space yeah um so i used coin so coin touches on a few things that we've been talking about here i took an nft and i said this kind of represents me and like myself as a creator um put some story to that nft and then i started it over with niftex um so now it's been charted into erc20 tokens uh we set up i did a sale to fund the uniswap pool i did a sale of making nfps that were accessed to a crypto puzzle so you had to own the nft and then it acted like token controlled access in order to be able to solve the puzzle um and the nft itself the artwork actually was the starting point for the puzzle um the winners actually got together and like they someone who had that nft they pulled them into their group and then shared the prize with everybody um but anyways so the story like my community has been around from just the crypto puzzle journey i've taken since you know 2014-15 um and it was easy for me to have a creator token because of having an existing community i think people like you have to kind of have that first otherwise it just trying to grow a community out of just pure value of a token is kind of backwards you need to already have something valuable that people are like um invested in on an emotional level i believe um i think to be more successful but for us like when i launched blockhead games i we don't have an erc20 token for blockade um i had always participated in the um the open software development world starting with bitcoin and i missed having that community where everyone got to participate in some degree of um building and then and then people like being paid in some sort of a token even if it's just a tip like there's just it's a fun um experience so when i launched coin i was very clear that this should be viewed as play money um it is an experiment and so donut don't come to knocking at my door expecting one moon um but it's it's done surprisingly well actually um and the the better it does the more opportunity we have to turn around to our community and basically support developers who are trying to do something creative that kind of fits right now to our ecosystem um we can put allocations towards those funds so it's a it's a really healthy feedback loop um we surprisingly have done a pretty good job not having a lot of the toxic like erc20 token holder conversations in our discord i think that's another reason of having a very strong community where you already have moderators that are not even paid that drive how the conversation is going to go um so like blockade games does accept coin in in-game so that's another path and then also there's ways like we reward these types of people like if it's a whole nother level of having a committed user essentially and um we can target so for example the game neon district can read ethereum wallets matic wallets and custodial wallets and then populate thing experiences in the game based on your asset holdings which include coin and also the reward token cred that you get when you are liquidity miner for coin so we can allow people to essentially farm the the database token which is um neon uh it's non-transferable and you use neon to funnel into your nft development so there's ways around on the fringe of the ecosystem that we add value but the whole idea there is that coin um so it's coins eden which is a syndicate within the neon district universe and lore we already have someone else in our community spinning up their own creator token who's a famous hacker his name is zayat and he's um head of security at blizzard he uh is one of the top 20 like bug bounty hunters and so with his token he's doing token controlled access and his discord um where you can get really close in the inside look at when as he goes and breaks things like breaks apple how did he do that and even maybe before he uh files his bug report you can see like what's going on and his actual work which i think is so fascinating i think these guys really undersell he's like no people don't really think this is so cool and i'm like no this is so cool so anyways in the neon district universe zaya is now going to have his hacker den and his community that he's he does have a following because he's a talent himself and we can build up that lore around himself as well and his game characters um and he has this token that we can also he can have his own micro economy within the neon district universe we could accept it at blockade games um to funnel into their their cooperative efforts they they act as a team they go and take down other teams on the leaderboard as a group so anyways that's i get really excited about tokens as tools and communities especially when it's coming from a good place and in a sincere place that's so cool this actually is a pretty good time for me to ask you there's a question from the audience i came in and people were curious about hearing uh what kind of uh websites or applications you know right now that sort of let you experience uh the metaverse like the way you would do it in snow crash or ready player one um other than obviously in the union district we just talked about do you know any other uh attempts at this right now that people can check out and you do yeah you can check out crypto voxels people have art galleries in it and you don't you don't need a vr headset or anything for it although you could use it um and you just enter uh into different like land parcels in the game and people have uh social events there concerts um you can check out people's like nft art hanging in the galleries and there's also uh decentraland as well so um yeah it's like completely vibrant communities happening in these worlds amazing i think there's also a decentral land for for those of you interested to check out the world there um that's awesome so i think one other kind of thing here is that um what's sort of just the way you can apply and compose these tools uh in ways to kind of merge uh anywhere from art to to dpi to transactions it sets up a whole new world for setting up new and unique business models i'm curious to kind of hear from from jesse and linda first like have you seen any new interesting business models for for how either entities or gals or just these communities are thinking about monetizing or what changes from a traditional sort of definition of what we think about business models so revenue well yeah it's interesting i guess like the the the business model of nfts is is not um like net new right like it's like you're selling people your stuff and that's like that that's kind of like a well unders like an artist sells their work um game game developers sell you know in-game assets so i think like the business model is well understood you could say it's like it's a micro transaction model like you you know you buy stuff when you want it um but i think there yeah there's a lot of interesting like potential um because all these assets are programmable so you know one early example is like you can bake in royalties to an nft so that the creator is able to like benefit when from from revenue when it's resold um and that's kind of like that revenue stream is like a net new business model for creators um and and so that's kind of interesting and then like linda touched on earlier like the idea that you can like fractionalize ownership of these nfts and then and then give it away to your audience and or or like sell pieces of it right like these are just kind of different different ways to monetize the work um which are interesting um but yeah i guess i i think the one important thing that i touched on earlier that maybe i can come back to here is like um i think the the business model of like social media platforms where we inter where we like engage with and consume media online is is gonna have to change because you know a lot of it has been ad driven in the past um and and now um you know there's this kind of like growing market economy around nfps that's happening and so i think like developers that lean into that and sort of like build on top of what is now emerging as this universal open programmable media library um have this opportunity like step into the flow of value that people are transacting in that marketplace and and that might you know look completely different than an ad based model yeah i i agree i don't feel like they're like brand new models but there is it is like new ways of thinking about things like for example um jesse talked about like mirror and just uh like essay tokens and ownership over these pieces like that actually historically hadn't been something i thought about um like this is actually something that i would want to own a piece of and i'm thinking through like what does essay token enable and i think there's going to be so much more developed along like what these tokens can represent and what it allows you to be part of so i'm pretty excited by that and then i think one area that um like i've i've been really interested in seeing more of is um just the idea of so like a very common business model just in traditional world is like selling advertising space on on your website or um on google having ads or something and um i think it'd be really cool to just have like these tokenized advertising space and like virtual real estate and so like having people just be able to like buy your advertising spot as an nft really early on if they think your website's going to get popular and then be able to like bake in royalties into that advertising space as people can now trade this freely so like that the idea has been around for a while um but i haven't really seen that many people work on it so i'm excited to see that as like a maybe promising business model in the future i thought that's a cool hack of an idea too for for those of you looking for ideas still um it's actually kind of true because uh maybe i could have praised it better it's not really a new business model just more about unlocking new ways to to sort of earn or sort of generate we would say revenue in this case and we've seen creative things like i mean now uh looking at something like ens domains uh ensd means our erc 721 tokens you are able to physically transfer ownership of domains which is slightly different than uh how we think about purchasing domains in kind of the current world you have things like people auctioning their time we saw reuben one of our kind of common friends uh giving out legal advice for all the token holders as an experiment as a lawyer and uh and uh that's a whole new way to think about prioritizing or being able to book a meeting because you owned uh the social token um and i think just i think the marriage example is probably the best thing here that you talked about which is unlocking thought and that's a super unique sort of thing that we know that we've been able to express on the internet we've been able to replicate and copy it infinitely but i've never been able to think about valuing it um in in sort of this crypto first like his way so that to me is super exciting and i feel like i'm now jealous that i don't need to compete on the hackathon this weekend because i want to try some of these things but uh this is so cool um uh we'll see if there's any more questions coming in uh but um uh so like the advertising space i've been telling the open c team for a while they need to have that banner position at the top where you can compete to get your collection or nft position there um like as an nft use case and then like people could yes being able to monetize that and buy it by the advertisement i think is really neat and i like the idea of then for example in universe in neon district having a billboard and the billboard could have you know just roll through nfts that people have put on a list um whitelisted and then it could be about events an event in crypto voxels dance party um but you can the other thing i like about it is you could buy it like just by clicking it and it could go into your wallet um yeah and i said those kinds of systems i think are neat um so i recently did a pitch deck where i made a list of um accredited investors and found who they were on like through open c and other means like for example mr beast when he bought a punk i knew like okay i got his address um and then i airdropped these pitch decks which were um unlockable so you had the cover but unless you owned the nft then owning it you could have access to the deck currently was just a link but the idea that um i think soon opencv will support where and i think wearable has unlockable content too but you can upload the actual pdf too so it could all be like one experience um i'm really excited about like unlockable content as a just as a tool and mechanism it you could launch so many businesses just on that model i totally agree that's a pretty big space because people definitely are always curious for her mystery boxes um it's it's a natural incident no this is great um so maybe what i'll do is i think we should we should end this here and then kind of wrap up uh with some kind of final thoughts uh there's a a a great set of kind of panelists here there are investors gamers founders uh you have really diverse backgrounds that kind of got you through where you are now and uh what i want to do is kind of end off with uh with a question for each of you and we'll start with uh artery um for people who are trying to get into this space whether that's uh kind of creative folks want to learn about this or founders and we're trying to start something um in the secret system uh give any advice they want to give them um and kind of how should they be thinking about what they should focus on with what matters and what they should be looking at in terms of what the possibilities are what are interesting things to to kind of dig into um what kind of so i want to just have each of you answer that and we'll wrap up this panel today i think um something i've been thinking about is the dichotomy of people with a big brand wanting to come in and participate and make their nfts but then like so then you have what almost feels like a cash grab that happens um i think it would be better if people with large brands and they are just get ramping up to almost go through the steps anonymously um make a collection don't associate it with your brand kind of look around spend time and seeing what is sustainable models that other people are doing other creatives how do they plan to support these nfts that they're minting because i think you actually have a lot of responsibility as someone with a big following or a brand to make sure you're being thoughtful um even though there's money on the table potentially doesn't really negate that you should be you should be thoughtful on how you're going to introduce these economic tools into your community jesse linda anything to add yeah so i guess my advice for founders is to be persistent um which you know so having having like been thinking about this stuff for a long time it's i think like in hindsight it's easy to see like it all it's all happening now and then i guess the important thing to keep in mind is you know we're definitely in some kind of like hype cycle for nfts right now where like you know the whole world is excited about them and that excitement will will like wax and win in the short term but in the long term like this technology is not going anywhere and all the things we're talking about on this panel are going to happen so yeah my advice is like be persistent there's going to be a sort of like hype cycle correction and that's normal it happens it's happening in crypto it happens in all markets um but just keep going and you know if you're in a position where you can get to the other side um you'll you'll you know you'll be poised to succeed when the next type cycle comes and you know that that'll carry you all the way through to adoption i think i think my advice um especially for nfts or anything that involves like having a community or having to engage with the community i think what works really well i mean not not always the case but generally i've seen work really well as building in public and being really collaborative with people early on and not just building in a complete vacuum like people in the space are really welcoming very open to feedback and helpful with each other so um like i feel like we talked about mirror a lot but mirror in particular i think did an excellent job at building in public um having their like launches and testing like just live streamed and really people could see the the kinks that needed to be fixed and and um would just kind of iterate from there and i really like that they're now having like very public displays of um like community building early on by having like like people voting in who are going to be the next writer so i just think like building in public um can can really benefit you in just starting that like community building early on i think that's a wonderful note to end on and uh to kind of sum it up i think uh that's primarily why i also need global exist we want you to succeed in this space and want to be there to kind of help you unblock uh wherever you're stuck or need help with so um and this is a really good advice for people 550 plus people who are going to be diving into or building something cool in in the world of entities uh over the next two days and with that i want to thank all three of you for being with us today and sharing some of your amazing thoughts uh there will be some more questions that we'll get and i will just send them your way directly and we'll be sure to kind of connect you with anybody who definitely wants to talk with you so thanks again and uh uh we are yeah we're super grateful to have you this one thanks yeah thanks everybody bye bye bye guys