Panel: Designers in Web314th Oct 2023 | Sunway University | ETHKL 2023

okay for now uh the topic will be designers in web tree so let's welcome our moderator har and our precious designers uh isin from Jupiter metora uh jaha from our e scan and Phil from F4 Studio Round of Applause please all right thanks thanks a lot guys for coming to this panel um I'll just kick things off right away uh I'd like to start this kind of panel with getting to know the actual people here um for a lot of people here especially who are designers in web 2 um they might be looking for inspiration on like how to get into this journey jump into this Rabbit Hole of web Tre design and I think all three of you had experience in web 2 before you jumped in and so the first start I think it' be really cool to get your story on how uh you started in the space so uh isin if you don't mind you can start sharing how you got into the space and kind of what is been like okay hello my name is isin I'm from uh Jupiter and metora from uh we doing emm and Dex in Solon um so I was at uh Petronas doing design system leading the design system uh we set like the standards uh for Petronas digital apps okay um but then I was looking for a remote job and then I was also pushed to be a like managerial role which we are only doing slides not design and then um yeah I don't want to go to management role um so I'm looking for like uh um crypto stop I mean because yeah uh I was um I had like interviews few interviews at coo pancake Swap and all other stuff uh and then song um uh uh found me I mean um yeah he he he know that I'm looking so he yeah so I get the job yeah yeah should I I'll just pass uh good morning everybody um it's great to be great to be back in Malaysia um my so my name is Phil hnia I'm co-founder of a company called air foil um so the quick claim to fame for us is that we've worked on product design uh branding go to market strategy across 150 plus projects in crypto including working with the folks at Unis swap at near Foundation Salon of labs AA labs and many more um my story um I I clear it's quite evident that I'm not from here um I I grew up in the US uh in a small town um and I started doing hackathons growing up so I started off as a product as um an engineer and product manager um working on a variety of projects and then I ended up starting um a job search platform in the US called solver IQ um we sold that company in 2018 and then I joined a VC where I was in kind of ahead of platform role where my job was to connect um founders with product designers and creative talent that they could work with and that's where I started to see some of the pain points that led me to want to work on air foil as well as started to dive into crypto and understand that the technology was really powerful but the experiences were really really hard to use so I I think for my background as a designer it's been a bit untraditional because I've been an engineer I've been a product manager and I've also worked on product design for the better part of a decade um what really made it click for me was this I used to think think that I wouldn't do design because I never really thought of myself as an artistic person and I kind of thought that design always had to be something that people that had a knack for kind of the Arts would take on but I've come to understand it's very different than that um and in reality like while art is an important piece of the process I think it's really about psychology design is similar to communication it is understanding what is going on in your user's head and then presenting them something that they're going to understand based on that and so I I realized that it was something that I cared very deeply about I enjoyed more than other things that I did because it's like cracking a puzzle almost you need to figure out what you can put out there that's really going to ultimately succeed um and then that plus um the mission of crypto that I'm very very aligned with um just made it a logical fit and then um y started airf foil um three and a half years ago and and uh you know rest is history thanks Phil and can we get J uh hey everyone um my my journey started a little bit like more than 10 years ago uh so back back then uh there was there were no much UI design Solutions and and resources on on the web so and then I started creating some uh UI components like reusable UI components and template themes like different kind of solutions for developers and it got getting tractions and and started getting like more popular and popular so that that kind of G gave me an opportunity to work uh with different companies and uh for some for some years so then eventually uh that led me to kind of join to e scan and uh yeah so that's uh kind of small Journey that I took to for blockchain space can you elaborate a little bit more like uh how did that entry into e scan happen entry um so I was I was working with uh many companies uh because of of the products so as a clients and so we had some uh kind of like ongoing like communication with EOS scan team uh like helping some uh uh redesigning uh the the product and that's kind of like started like uh from from that point and it's been like for I think like five six years ago yeah so um and I think I'll do one mini question for isin because you mentioned Petronas and I think out of all three of you you probably had like the most extreme difference between the previous life and the current life so maybe can you uh explain a little bit what the work life or cultural differences are uh in working in a company a huge company like Petronas is working in a kind of Plucky web tree uh startup um it's very different because it's very corporate um okay um I I was also the first designer for grab when St small uh it's called My Taxi before that and um I was like I was like uh sorry my background is from engineering uh like telecommunication engineering and then I drop out and then um I went to interview and then I get a job for front-end developer then at grab I was forced to do design and then from there from there I start I started become a yeah designer and then yeah um uh I work at like very different um industry I I work at iot Ecommerce um um and it's yeah nothing much different is uh for if you uh for patronas um it's just the culture um we don't do the design much we just like um uh um approving design yeah okay so I think uh that gets to uh one of the main questions for this panel and probably one question that can take half hour just to answer uh so I think a lot of people here probably be wondering as well like uh what is a huge difference between uh doing design or uiux in web two versus uh web 3 yeah we can start with Phil sure um I'll Di that um so I actually I've been asked this question a lot and my short answer is I don't think there's much of a difference but I'll explain why I'm saying that um I think that a lot of times we assume that there is a substantial difference so let me give you an example um across most eii protocols today the way that you authenticate as a user and begin to use it right is you go to the top right of the screen you click connect wallet popup shows up on your device you press approve and then you jump into the application itself I think that's a horrible way to onboard to a new product right um and there's a reason for that right it's because onboarding is not just about collecting a username and password it's importantly about priming the user to be able to have a successful experience that's why you may have seen if you log into a website and you have on one side you have the login form and on the other side you have a testimonial from a happy user or you have links to documentation or you have guides you have things like that there's the reason for that it's because it's not about maximizing the number of people who click the button to sign in it's about maximizing the number of people who ultimately have a good experience with the product and if you jump directly into a defi protocol and then are presented with a bunch of buttons things to click but no guides on how to do it save for go to the gitbook and then go read through the documentation which users aren't going to get to use they're going to click away right I I think ultimately crypto has a bit of a bubble effect which is that it's a large enough Bubble that probably the primary way I pay my friends back for dinner is with crypto today because I can live in that right I work in this industry we all do and so we're all surrounded by people that use these tools on a regular basis but it is a bubble where most people in the world don't have that experience and aren't already onboarded and so when they begin using our products it's almost like the experience is only as strong as its weakest link so I think we need to pull a lot of that stuff back in right really think through user flows end to end as if the user has no prior context continue to provide them with context and reasons to be there I've called it in the past raising their health bar because it's almost like you throw them powerups in a video game one wallet that I really like for example is glow wallet on salana because when you onboard to the wallet for the first time instead of just jumping you straight into your brand new wallet it has this cool onboarding experience that has a wallet that like turns and falls through space and then it like says thank you for like downloading glow and it presents you with like a moment of delight all of those Details Matter and that's all stuff we know in web 2 it's all stuff that grabbed us but it's not stuff that most uh crypto companies do and I think we need to J yeah uh I think um there are a lot of like uh in inor uh the the UI flows and and the user interfaces more establish it like comparing to I would say like to web tree uh so like because it involves like exra like um interactions like transaction uh maybe even sometimes Hardware wallets kind of stuff so uh so it's kind of like from that perspective I would say it's uh a little bit different um and in V I think is uh the designs are more like modular uh so for example like maybe because there's it's just growing so maybe in future so we're going to see more and more like uh different different uh these designs as well so uh what I mean when modular for example like like when you go like uh like certain depths like Unis swap or or anything so you might see that like uh like swap or something so like all like even like connecting wallet so somehow you you will experience this with different apps then um yeah for me I think is a um straightforward um once you know the what you are solving um it's pretty much uh it's very easy um the maybe new stuff is something like um new design components that is not in web to like probably like wallet and then um like transaction sorry transaction is very um um swapping and all that um you need to like create new new design components other than that is very St word um but I was trying to bring more web to designers they are very scared they they thought like uh you need to learn a lot like uh you need to learn a lot of uh technical uh stuff to to do web 3 design so but it's not actually okay and I think uh the kind of the two of you hinted at uh this kind of transactions or making um interacting with a blockchain that's not in your control right where as in web 2 everything is in your open Service uh so that goes to my question uh my next one is um what would be some of the major challenges that you faced uh in your entire time in web tree from a u uux point of view uh when having to deal with or interact with blockchains and how has that uh shaped your design for your products we can start with cha maybe uh so I would say for like most common uh you challenge like fil mention like onboarding users so it's kind of like not not very straightforward especially who comes from uh like different like and apps and and a 2 world uh so the one of the most uh major y challenge I would say so it's onboarding users uh and terminologies like uh the blockchain users so most of the time they're new even so it doesn't exist like in in viip 2 and and uh in a in a blockchain level so that the complexity of the the technology also so which which a lot of like details like transactions like blogs etc etc yeah I think mostly I I would say this this one and Phil uh I want to avoid rehashing because I agree with all of that uh I maybe I would put it as portraying the the added friction of blockchain is uh something that actually helps the user so um you know one challenge that I think we face for example is explaining to a user who's onboarded on one chain why they ought to onboard to another as well right so to just give you an example of that um we do increasingly more and more consumer uh crypto work in Vietnam um but the Vietnamese Market had two blockchains that took a very early lead right so BSC bance smart chain and Tron and so you have a lot of people that have onboarded to those two but haven't onboarded to others um so when we're working with let's say the apos Oru team or salana team um they have to come in and convince people not just onboard to crypto but to also download probably a brand new wallet um and so that's really hard to explain because in reality there isn't really a good reason that the end user should invest their time right there often isn't most of the time the added value of a different chain is more on the developer side than it is on the end user side um so what we try to do is we try to make it exciting by by showing the user what's on the other side of that additional friction um if we're talking about let's say a music nft Marketplace um we worked on one called sound. XYZ and one very common thing that we would do is mention to the artists how they were being um uh treated let's just say treated badly by the traditional music industry and saying if you want to own your own music if you want to own your own rights um and and and want to support that ethos right then uh you know you should use sound. XYZ but that's a continuous problem what I really hope will happen is either we have more multi-chain solutions and multi-chain wallets um that will make this uh abstract this away from the user uh or just candidly that we'll see more consolidation over time so that the user experience overall gets better uh yeah for me I I think my challenges is um understanding what we are doing um they say 45 we have have uh pools pools have like different different kind of pools you have basic uh clmm DMM you need to study each of that um yeah for me okay um when I first joined my uh cing company the first like one or two week I was like what is this guys talking about so so I catch up by um reading medium articles YouTube and coo books uh the it helps my team so help me um where else yeah um yeah um you just need to to know um what you're uh building so other than that it's very yeah all right so uh next I have like a couple specific questions uh for each of you uh we'll start with jar um so I think people commonly say this about ether scan that you know it's not the most um sexy design out there um and um I think one part of that is the there is a huge scale that it needs to handle uh so what are your thoughts on how well maybe you can answer the first question first like uh whether or not you even agree uh that the design is uh uh not very good-looking and um whether that matters and how do you handle that large skill that e scan has um the design I think is uh designed like a very subjective topic so uh so everyone like uh likes something so it's very subjective but um overall for isan is uh data analytics uh platform so uh where it works with huge data sets so uh our goal like I said design and product so we should make sure that uh we we don't overwhelm uh users with uh all the like like very like complex uh terminologies maybe like uh the data extra data stuff and at the same time uh we have to uh take into account different type of users as well like so some some might be retail users some might be Traders some might be like developers so um when when you deal like uh different type of group of us user bases so you have to take into account like uh more like conservative design uh style I would say so uh for for this is for design part uh for regarding the scaling so uh I can I can say like maybe in general uh like in any design like even in Web Two web three so the general stuff is so uh using uh like reusable components that uh like to to make it like your your UI like consistent across like different pages so uh like because like any any minor change of Min effect like a huge user base so it's a consistency is very important uh for the Ean specific like huge uh data analytic platform uh is important uh to consider that kind of uh not overwhelming basically the the data data stuff yeah yeah so you mentioned like uh a lot of users can be uh Angry when you have so much skill so like if there's 100 million users 1% is still 1 million and that's a lot of angry users that you have to deal with um yeah and and uh you I think we shouldn't take that as from the angry point I I think we should we should look uh into that as a feedback so and and try to improve for example like when we launched this year uh like uh slightly redesigning the AA scan so we we had a lot of feedback and and uh we I think we address it like most of them uh so I think we we we should look into as like more like Gathering like feedback and addressing the the user experience overall thanks the next is uh isin um so uh you not only run uh not just a well not a DEX uh but a DEX aggregator and a DEX aggregator on Solana which is a chain that maybe some ethereum people are not as familiar with uh what are some unique experiences uh with the uiux that you've had to deal with that you can share with people who here so um we probably have like four different type of user the first type is like very Pro user mostly most of them are developers and second type is uh de um third type is probably one is familiar with blockchain and the fourth type is normies who are very very new um so our job uh Jupiter job is is to um import these people to Solana and protect them as much as possible um yeah we need to balance the UI to be like uh very easy to use uh for normies um yeah and protect them from let's say during the meme uh meme coin um let's say there there's a token called King and at that time we have like four or five different tokens uh with same similar name and then um yeah we try to do to create like uh token leas to protect okay so this is the correct correct token and then maybe in future uh okay for each token maybe we could have like what is the volume what is like uh for um the amount in each pool for for each and um yeah generally uh Dex is a bit easier than doing emm because emm is like very technical you need to know yeah the D lmm stuff is very technical um um Dex is like VAR re you you can do PS you can do limit order U uh what else uh DCA stuff is is very straightforward you you almost see that that thing every day so yeah not much Challenge on that part so yeah uh and for Phil uh you've mentioned earlier you work with a bunch of project projects uh in the space uh what are some maybe interesting stories or or design challenges that you've had to deal with with working with all these different types of uh projects yeah absolutely um so I was thinking about the best example to to talk about um and apologies because I know it's e KL uh but uh I have to give an salana example in this case because I think it was a very interesting project so I know that at the beginning I mentioned how you know design may include art but it's not necessarily art right it's a process of understanding users um and that is also a little bit more meta than just the uiux itself it also has a lot to do with strategy um so uh who here has used the salana blockchain before you raise your hand okay who here has used salana pay before okay unfortunately only one but uh but I'll tell you the story of salana pay so we were brought in by the salana labs team because they were like hey you know we know that as a very fast and efficient blockchain um we want to promote the usage of usdc for payments on salana but the problem is as salana Labs we don't know how far we can actually go right so we're getting uh Expedia group um Steve aoki's team came to them uh music labels came to them MasterCard and visa and you may have recently heard about the Visa partnership that's been was two years in the works so they all came to Salon lab saying hey there's we want to do something with usdc payments in salana but we don't know what so the labs team thought about should we do um you know should we do a wallet ourselves no but then we're really stepping on Phantom and glow we don't want to do that we don't want to step on uh Community projects um and and so it was unclear what to do so they brought us in to talk with all the partners and figure something out so we ended up doing was two things we did first we released this design kit to Showcase what you could do with payments on salana and QR based payments on salana that we released for the big hackathon that salana hosted last year um to begin getting Community projects to begin to build simultaneously we worked with their team to put together an SDK that any uh wallet developer could use to integrate into their application and so we sort of just we put the tech out there and then we showed some very interesting use cases um we did this uh Event in San Francisco um at a cafe where we had um Shas share on the Sal team come in and make payments using QR um press releases stuff like that so we kind of just like planted the idea and everyone's like hey this is a really good use case that you should begin building on and by the way here's everything that you need that doesn't sound like a design project per se but I would say it's very much a design project and in this case our users weren't the end users our users or our customers were all of the developers and all of the partners that need to be convinced in order to build on salana and instead of leveraging just UI and ux also we had to design the copyrighting we also had to design websites we also had to design our messaging and promotion strategy all of that it's the same stuff even if some of it is traditionally considered design and some of it some of it isn't um the result of that today is that now you know Salon Labs has a major partnership with one of the largest credit card processors it may have taken two years to do it but it shows the value um that can come from working backwards from what your users need and and thinking uh a little bit outside the box on how to actually design solutions for them all right thanks Phil um so as I understand it we have time uh for more Q&A questions uh so feel free if anyone in the audience wants to ask oh I I see one hand uh there first um can I get a volunteer to pass uh this mic sorry who was hi uh I'm Iman from E scan the ux designer so uh question to the panels so as designers in web fre how do we attract and onboard more more designers in the web Tre space question to the panels I I I thought on this but I I don't want to take too much time um so I think there's a few problems that we need to solve first of all a lot of people think as I believe you mentioned earlier web 3 is too complex um it's too difficult to understand in addition there's frankly been so many scams that a lot of people associate the entire industry with scams and we have to fight that very very actively and I don't think we we often do enough to do so um but I'll start with this I think that we need to recognize that we have a Darth of great product designers in web 3 we need more and so hire people without web3 experience and train them um I that's not a great answer for an early stage startup but especially more established companies I think need to take the initiative to hire more Junior and mid level talent and help Mentor them and support them right so I I can say it air foil um we try to do this as much as we can um a lot of folks that have joined us even joined us in the early days including um two of our first 20 staff are both based in KL still are here um both of them started as Junior designers at airfoil and then made their way up the ranks um but part of the reason that that's very important to us is that we want those people to go lead projects down the road what I often see though even even in larger companies in crypto is they sort of say we want to do the the What's called the Netflix model which is we only hire senior people and that's it and we have just a few of them hey stripe had only two product designers and it's for 100 employees and that was good enough for them I think there's a consequence on the entire space of taking that attitude and I also just think frankly that hire the people that you ad admire their design sense the most and trust that if you give them a couple months to get up to speed and support them along the way they're going to do a great job uh I I think that organizing like these events so uh helps a lot uh so like hackaton and this kind of like uh blockchain based events so I I feel it's one of the best way to onboard like designers and developers to the ecosystem yeah uh um for me introducing them to like um uh good company is important because uh for new designers I mean for web to designers they thought like our company may can like survive six months or 10 months or something because maybe we don't have money or something um that is like their concern so I think uh maybe it's it's good to explain to them that we have this much uh this much cash and then all that um Survivor um okay um what else um okay um uh Heaton um maybe you could do like product I mean product Heaton not just uh developer hecaton maybe you could do like um FMA design prototype for for designers like um for web three products yeah that's my suggestion so maybe that's one feedback for E organizers uh so we have a next question from uh from Matt hi U I'm Matt from uh ether scan so um this is more of a generic question right uh and not speically for Vy but I think like looking at everyone here right I mean you guys have a lot of experience in uh doing what you're doing your subject matter experts uh but taking it down one step right uh when you talk about UI ux right uh uh no it's like UI ux so where does UI and ux uh uh differentiate itself and where does it all at so how do you define your ux and sure who wants to go first all right J I think um so the the you part I think like uh is it might be quite different uh than than comparing the like web to so overall like uh my my take about the uix and blockchain is uh more like from the technical aspects uh where for example like uh those like interactions flows steps to to kind of like reduce and make it to end user easier uh but but nowadays like um we can see a lot of uh development is going like uh in etherum especially eum commit like account abstractions kind of stuff so kind of it cuts the Liars of like different uh extra steps so uh from the UI s side I would say uh it's uh mostly follows the VB 2 uh but then like uh it also like adds a little bit like um extra like terminologist maybe kind of stuff so that and as a designers and and product so we should make sure that it's easier to understand for end users when they use the product yeah uh I think UI is a subset of ux so yeah maybe we can do for me we do like UI stuff but um ux is like everyone's responsibility in the team uh yeah maybe it can be led by the designers but um for us like Jupiter and metora everyone is like taking the responsibility uh of uh uh better X yeah the last thing I say on that is uh I I think these terms are to your point I think these terms are blurring together over time I mean think about like 10 years ago I feel like most Engineers would probably categorize themselves as like I'm mostly a backend engineer mostly a front engineer and these days most people are full stack right they may have a particular Focus that is the thing that they're best at but generally speaking the the expectation is that they can they can tackle any of those things if need be I think that's very true in design as well part of this has to do with tooling um 10 years ago the way that you would design a website is you would go in Photoshop and you would simply design the visuals and there would be a very big Gulf between what the designer would hand off and what the engineer would have to ultimately build but little by little that's been coming closer and closer together when we started using sketch instead of Photoshop or illustrator then you had the ability to create component libraries uh that you would just reuse over and over again to create rules with figma now you can actually do CSS output and now there's more and more plugins that can output to front-end code so little by little we're bringing those things together I think where we're headed is really this somebody needs to drive the experience and that includes understanding which features ought we be developing right um what are our users complaining about what can we prioritize and one person has to work on handoff and systems so um there's a term that we use called Design Systems it basically means you create a component Library once your buttons your tool tips uh your font sizes your colors you set all of those in advance and then you reuse them across the interface and don't modify them unless you absolutely need to now why do you do that as a designer because if you make any changes an engineer then has to go make that those changes right the way an engineer would implement it is they would Implement all the components first and then assemble the application later so I can say that in the way that we run projects we tend to have one person that's sort of running out in front creatively coming up with ideas and rapidly prototyping them testing them all of that and then we have one person that looks at what's come out of that process looks at the existing front-end library and begins to weigh hey that little thing that you threw into the your UI is that really necessary that's adding three days of engineering time or hey that's a little inconsistent the design system Let's Straighten that up or let's make changes to the design system and ultimately guides its implementation cool uh we have one question over here okay hello hello good afternoon thank you very much for your knowledge and time my name is ISO I've been involved with blockchain development since 2018 uh doing private and uh public projects so my challenge number one when it comes to onboarding normies as you define is the explanation of the private key public key you know cryptographical back here uh what is your thoughts on how to make the uiux more smooth to on board the normies and to make it easy to understand understand if you're are doing any efforts on this direction or in this day in this time it it doesn't matter anymore uh something that I have seen I don't know if you have used french. is that they just connect the a Google account with a blockchain account and you don't even see anything related to the public Keys you just click accept and decline it is the direction that you personally think that you should take or what are your thoughts on on that regards thanks um so that that's a little bit tough because I I think the friend. tech approach I I think my concern is around it's it's really easy to hack social accounts um and I still think it's it's pretty easy for somebody's accounts to get compromised but what I really think it comes down to is this um everybody should have many wallets not one um the idea that you have one wallet that you use across all your applications also means you have one single point of failure and if we really want crypto to be the way people pay for things collect digital assets get their paychecks from work then that's not really secure enough I think for the average user but think about in your everyday life the way that you would use a wallet I've got some money in my wallet right now not very much why because somebody could go pickpocket me on the street and take it and importantly I don't want to lose you know a thousand USD if I had that in my that that would make no sense right so we make certain decisions um over where we store our money and financial assets today based on relative levels of security we say I want my paycheck in the bank I want my DayDay spending money in my in my pocket maybe I want some more cash at home right um I think the same thing is true with crypto for most consumer crypto applications I think we should go full FR Tech approach and just hide everything right so there's an app called even that built on polygon and they allow you to buy nft versions of the first albums that artists released so you can support artists you care about by buying their first releases I've bought a lot on even I love it the point of even is not reselling anything you're not making money buying uneven no one makes money uneven other than the artists the reason you buy is to support the artist and get a closer relationship with the artist so does even need to really care deeply about security I would argue no because there's just not much value transacting on it and and that's by Design right I think where I get more uncomfortable with frch is because the point of frch in a way being honest is to get rich and so there is going to be a lot of money running through FR Tech and so there are serious risks to people doxing themselves the other thing that I'm following right now that I think is really interesting is the social recovery wallet so um we worked on one social recovery wallet already um the idea is basically that um it it's using homomorphic homomorphic encryption you can have a series of friends that can go help you recover your wallet for you when multiple of them agree that their wallet ought to be recovered without it actually showing a revealing private Keys um I am not sure that it's going to work exactly as planned because I think the idea that you get a group of friends together to help you recover your wallet involves you asking people to do a lot of work for you and I just don't think people will do that but where I think that's really valuable um we've seen some very interesting stable coin projects um in both Africa and Latin America where local currencies are incredibly unstable and so if you could have an entire community that could for itself operate uh uh operate systems to recover your own wallet um that that could be really special but speaking about design for a moment I also think that's why we need to actually design these products more for those communities I do not think that it makes any sense to come into markets with developed and highly efficient Financial systems and try to compete with those systems the vast majority of people in the world don't live in countries where that's true and so I think we should be FOC we should be designing our interfaces for them as somebody who's you know my family's from Columbia there's almost no products in crypto that support the Spanish language and those are in countries where you'll see you know 50% inflation in a given year those are exactly where we should be focusing and I don't think we do often enough um so thanks uh for the answer Phil uh do we have more questions from crow okay hi everyone I'm um I have a question for Phil I like how you mentioned about uh design is not only about art but also a form of communication and we talk about communication it is two ways right so I'm curious how do you um communicate or how do you know whether this design is truly communicating with users or not and also uh there are cases for like for example isud and jaha their websites has multiple type of users how can you make a design that communicate with different group of people uh so there's like two questions here first is uh how do you make sure it's really communicating the communication happens and second is how can we accommodate different type of users in one place thank you got it so short answer is user testing but I want to give you a tip that might be helpful to approaching that so you may have noticed that a lot of times you'll get to a landing page and then very quickly you'll see a section that's like for investors or a section that's like for Enterprise or something like that here's why people are doing that it's because if you have one page and you try to cater to everybody you're not going to cater to everybody you're going to lose everybody and that's always the challenge that as a designer you're trying to solve so the idea is you want to pull people away who need their own separate experience as fast as you possibly can so that you can then give them the optimal experience for them so it's if if you have a big pool of users that are highly highly diverse what you want to do is try to separate them into groups as quickly as possible give them their own individual experiences so they have the best um and and I would say yeah I think that's my most like practical piece of advice on like how to how to really go about that thanks for the answer Phil I think we had a couple questions uh somewhere over here earlier okay so uh the guy in the white uh sweater and um was it another raised hand can I can I just check while we're waiting um what over here I can just add on like no questions I can just add on the to the followup I think the the one of the best way uh what you can do is H you can use the product so and especially in blockchain so it allows you to kind of like uh use it and experience it so and to feel it and based on that uh you can also like uh kind of like test your like sorts and the design flows so it's not like like in INB web to like projects so you're building like maybe like completely different kind of product that uh you're like not able to use and experience the product but at the stage so I think uh you can use mostly like any daps and kind get experience and and understand the the needs so over yeah right can we get the next question yep uh hi I'm fares um I'm I'm not in the uh I'm not from E scan or from uh the the web three environment uh I'm from banking digital Bank banking um and uh the typical issue that we have in web to right now especially when it come when it's already mature is that it's very polarizing in a way that uh when you come to design you want to be careful not to design the product as a banker from your point of view and at the same time you don't want to listen too much to the customer because then you know it will drag your design here and there so my question is to web 3 do you think maybe is two question then the first one is do you think you listen enough to your user yet and second are you willing to listen to your user or you think you're still at a stage where you need to be the one that's leading how the product should be designed if you get what I mean yeah yeah maybe uh I think we should balance that uh of course we should lead and um whil we are still doing um we get a feedback from our current iterations uh like uh Jupiter we have like a few hundred um iteration of swap form like 600 right now um yeah we have been collecting um um uh feedback um doing research so let's say we we we are introducing uh PS new product so we have like uh um a few so now people um testing our products and while we are doing that um uh we get their feedbacks um yeah I think it's it's very important to balance that not to lead like um shorts needy some something and then yeah uh yeah can I agree on it uh so uh both I I think it's both both is true uh so uh because uh at some point so you have to create and be kind of the first and create like figure out the how it work and visualize it so then uh like when you iterating the the flows the design like the features so then definitely you have to gather the feedback and work on it so I think uh that's uh true at the time POS of all right and that's all the time we have uh so thanks everyone for asking your questions uh please give the panelists a round of applause