PANEL: Mixers by Wei Jie Koh, Julien Niset, Roman Storm, Steve Guo, Anna Rose

[Applause] hi everybody how are you doing today yeah it's sunny outside over here there's a typhoon coming mmm let's enjoy this while it's here okay so today we have a panel where we're going to be talking about mixers we I think maybe just to start off so we only have one microphone so I have to bear with us we're gonna have to be doing a little bit of passing but I think to start off why don't we just introduce ourselves what you guys give a quick intro to who you are and how your project relates to mixers when it's weeds yeah place a singaporean foundation and I'm working on a civil knowledge signaling Kenneth Kinsella for which is a bass player for mixer code recommends hey guys my name is Jane from blueprint protocol so the protocol is using a GK snacks to enable people to build up a decentralized high performance then custard in scatter bodies and I exchanged the co-founder of origin so we are a small contract is what it and we'll be working on copper and opus was privacy reasons hello I'm Robin storm we're working on that privacy solution called on the other cache oh okay so I think probably most of the people in this audience know what a mixer is but I always like to start off the panel with a couple of definitions so what is a mixer and what is it for in a nutshell a mixer is a privacy tool that breaks the link between addresses so which is different than confidentiality so we're talking about privacy so it is not a sender and the recipient you know but you don't know what they are doing in this case you don't know who's doing was sending your fix is there anything else you can say about what a mixer is or isn't a fool all right so there are two types of mixes what is a centralized mixer is a been around since for many many years even since the early 2000s like you know early 2010's yeah you put in you get a big kind of funk a comma something like that and then you put a big white you trust that they'll get it back to a different address and they usually do all the exits can and you lose a month but I think our building here is like a transverse mixer so you put in the refund somewhere and because it uses fat contracts and or some kind of thing on yourself you know one can access care so that's the as a point on place one quick woman that they had mixer it could be used as a product which could provide the unshaded anonymity and also metadata annuity what I mean by that unchain and annuity will provide you the anonymity of your transactions public park chains metadata and annuity would provide the solutions like poor proxies like to have your metadata of your browsing sessions and also from a exchange perspective I would say like holidays the central exchange is a like first-generation make sense so I thought well they just sent the token like Bitcoin which is until exchange them with joining different addresses like also they can use a chef chef as well so you started to hint about like the history of make service but what what were the early mixer exactly what were they called if you if anyone knows they're like where do this first where did this idea first first emerge [Music] so as I remember one of the most debtors maybe not the first one but one of the early mixers mother point join in a Bitcoin that it was called mixer but I like if you look at the technically if you observe all the inputs and outputs in that solution it will still not give you the full anonymity comparing to privacy tools that is using zero knowledge groups behind the scenes such as the Zetas neurologists then the next okay and work to the next phase which is zero knowledge base make sense which is like we're in a very very early stage these solutions basically they provide you a way that when you can deposit some of your pants then like using some sort of rules such as an inhibitor cells you can establish a private sector transaction when you're gonna exit the mixture funds to some new address so you can break the chain of links I think maybe if you want to go even further than cash at least four million years ask what people need to know their money for examples I think the first mixer company agree I was about to say Bitcoin but they just mention cash cash I mean at best - for many countries and also there's a lot of local dealers and they are like the individual mixer probably promoted ice so they receive money you don't need it to kyc and then pass to someone else the next receiver and it also do they don't know they don't need to do the KYC so I think that's the poorly the first mixer in the histories I think in your head it's like we might also want to think about our adversary model so oh who would we want ever see from we want to probably see from the state or doing privacy from a neighbor so those are the two very different things and can have different implications and how you do do it we forgot the moment to mention our two most important products that are also involved in the primacy solutions on chain which is a ring signatures and I mean mobile protocols memo we've always used in a diamond ring our cryptocurrencies ring signatures is using manera particulars and the Zika starts one of the most widely popular watch and easy cash that was actually the point out salsa it makes like how does mineiro fit into this you sort of you just outlined the ring signatures and the zero knowledge proof what was there a third one that you just said no one will remember when will its own it's a protocol and from this protocol there was two projects derive from it but it's it's independents not ring signature sponsor and it's so why don't we do a little bit of a comparison then like so I thought all the projects you're working more on the zero dollar side yeah can we still talk about like why wouldn't do the ring signature version like why you know that's been around a little bit longer this is somewhat tested why would you change that so my opinion rigged signatures could give you a lower low quality it's not the best tool to use for the to give you the full anonymity of your transactions so let's say the ring signature main anonymity said would be consists of like ten ten participants in the ring with comparing to Zika snacks there is no like I mean technically there are some limits but it's much much higher in terms of your inanimate aside so I need me to sell it means how many other participants are participating in the whole process of mixing your funds with some other funds so the ring signature in manera the they would use some fixed set of participants by let's say ten so and there are some attacks let's say you find the first one like define if I join a ring and the next person you don't know by who who won the other let's say nine participants of that ring so the other could be completely broken I was gonna say better yeah that's just like like for a signature I think about Allah and now come to me I let me like a hundred bucks then we J says 80 to ten hundred bucks that I gave to AJ even I don't know them by remember the face so if you want to be the Dominus you have to work for it another like the entire room people who come to me like have room to lend me money and I can't remember how much money is it and half of room come to me and then give them the money then it kind of mix up so I don't need to remember it's no I don't mean to as I it's hard for me to remember is a mixer so that means that you it takes time to teach you to be an ominous that means like people have to takes time to wait so the timing is obvious mutation is that only on the ring signature so where you actually can like what I understand that you're saying there's like if there's only a few participants say then it's actually pretty easy to trace it but if there's a lot of participants over a long period of time then it's harder but is that only with the ring signature type mixers or is that also a zero knowledge style mixers I think there's a goodness in our stomachs us there have been articles that written and published about such as quasi catch where you can the otherwise she even show the transactions but based on heuristics so for example if you have a lot of users who deposit into a issue that pool and then they immediately throughout the five minutes you can look at all the transactions and then sort of guess with high certainty that we sadly so there's not there's not much there's not good so even so zero knowledge is not a magic spell that makes everything disappear in today so we have to educate users and we have to have good UI and behavioral nudges that encourage users to lead the deposits as long as possible or have good security sanity security hygiene things and ever so it's not just technology it's also about how they use it the same given its busiest nights you can also attack someone so it leaf I know that you are going to do a transaction actually yet I do a lot of be seeing myself you may think that there is 50 people but actually you alone so it is kind of the same pollinating signatures although theoretically which is a bit better and also it depends on the capacity as we dimension and kV or other people these people like stupidly you might think that your garden he said but actually you're going to set is close to zero because all the other person has Omega are like the same pattern and so this actually speaks to another question that I had which is like we just mentioned one limitation of the mixers but what are the other issues around the mixers ways that the mixers could actually get cracked as any spa contract on Heath um that is my contract risk as if any photography project that it's risk of the the crypto primitives of crypto systems being broken so to address those things you need first of all audits second of all you need a trust set up that allows that is like something that circular by NZ cash powers of Terezin set up where you can have a multi-party computation where we only need one person out of a whole set of people to to do that transfer process to be honest for the whole thing to be secure so that's why we're doing for semaphores mixer and the big parts of house women is over tomorrow so if these things haven't done them it's us could be also raising cryptography primitives commands may be really good an oriental is what creates the problem for example we mixers today other people are using in Fuhrer to access the blockchain and actually if you do that you connect to an IP address so the mixers there are soon to be private because we assume that people use a local node but in practice most users believe the centralized service and actually in getting information by just connecting to infer alchemy or any other providers I think that's a dictation a second limitation in the semaphore is the question of the audio transfer into an account that doesn't have ether and so does the question who's been gasps and in that case we use renewals and again if you access a relay err usually connect to a service and again you are jealous maybe information so there are solutions such as using tor as mentioned before but I think all these practical details are what may actually reduce your personal practice as these are like externalities they're like the things that won't necessarily be thought of when designing in cryptography for rather in the implementation is there also a hardware I mean in fear I guess is sort of these four like my ratio or when you're implementing it on an existing blockchain other issues with that character right now if you want to use a big service of your mobile device I have to have a mobile browser so that would be the huge limitation for users and also let's say if you use a mixer with a much higher number level of America trees you would have to spend a lot of gas when if you just execute that withdrawal transaction so for example if you use a miracle tree with 16 levels which would give you the maximum amount of transactions that could be stored in that tree 65,000 the amount of gas for each withdrawal would be around right now before the instant hardwork 800,000 deaths you you mentioned really briefly three layers but can you define what a real there is in this context and how that could actually be a limitation using viruses as I mentioned in the case where the recipient doesn't either so there's the question of how can you be draw basically the same account as someone has made a story of course you can send you some interest in regards to the end that transaction with so yeah is to use a third party that will actually make the withdrawal on your behalf and will be paid a gas like different mechanics but in the case of poplar for example the person that is really related transaction will receive part of the amount of the transfer so yeah it is again we need to create that link between the sender and the recipient because of the column of a castle monitor and so that in big sort of this different strategy you get one exception as to the symbols possibility of course if you want to make it complete interspace you should have network [Music] I just like to add a few thoughts of them everywhere so they're not the cash we also use Everywhere's Network and for the next release we are working very hard right now with the integration of gas station network made by what was happening I think they're working generic solutions to provide anywhere network for a nice Mark attractive offer so that would increase the level of decentralization and the level of PT because you could either choose which reverse you want to assign me they will draw your conduction or you can even spin up your everywhere and the more aware we have in the network the whether it is for everyone and potentially I think people even maybe all the mixers could collaborate is in the one set of anywhere network so it will be when today before we sort of talked a little bit about how they're not for used for the service here are knowledge approved style mixers but where did them like what is it done one time is it I'd like to hear a little bit more about how those designs actually have it so first when you deposit if toget something sir that's done in it clear God when you withdraw you generate a proof in the browser send it back the proof to the Vallejo Malaya sends it to the smart contract that very nice it through poetry and if it's spell it it is better than it proves that that person was sent the proof it was a member of a set of people deposit at first base but this interview the exact address exact identity in the first place I mean the origin identity so the proof happens the next occasion happens on lately troops general off chain the circle is written by Nietzsche and the trustor service done is done by the team as well and also by the committee yeah that's really good but are all of these projects like the there's three projects here at were using as they are not approve construction are you all using it in the same way is it all based on the same original paper or idea let me say that I think that the architecture of the design is the same we are all using a vertical three tastes fantasy service or less as we mentioned the idea that to me secret code which is a little tree and you proved that when you really prove that you know the secret one of the three in the world is really and it hasn't in double spend so I think this construction is the same you know three setups but then again a lot of implementation what kind of mashing function we use for the three what kind of machine functions do you use to create your events also will happen you know these details we are only different because we will target different use cases but the global architecture is is missing and those implementation details impacts heavily on how much gas consumption you're going to use what you already mentioned these cases types of applications I guess I think all the mixers are triangles with the same problem everyone has I hope you like what's the most important result you have from our perspective because for us like right now the first part is scalability so but we still have the departs for the privacy so we just postpone tonight the practically but a lot of the infrastructure persists how to say winder suspicious that all four of us and the whole is he coming to be working together creates a not just mixes but also at other city projects creates about the positive side lands so we're not just helping the evil community to get better privacy options we are also advancing on technology research and development yeah so it might be a bit messy maybe decentralize might be might be like whether they're forming cells when you need one but eventually hopefully the ss7 because it puts it can allow everybody to flourish oh you guys go into more detail of these different use cases because I actually would like to understand the between these projects and then after that by the way I want to ask about like they use case for Texas but first let's find out the difference between a project as a solicitor formula name what define project plus privacy that's a use case like let's say I'm a trader I went I just got a bunch of tokens from someone I want to use it to trade whatever and I need some gas and I don't want them to see my my balance cause in the will which I thought so I use a mixer I get a gas and I treat my robot as I use came back Kaiba events like you deposit some diet because what should get a spotted event if you if you don't show then the diet is redistributed to other participants but I don't want people to know that I will amenity but because I know one we can act like a guy so maybe if I project they make you a project as privacy if they're so useless [Music] I want to see us but aha I wanna keep it a keep it light up so I think you know case as I mentioned we are at first being a smart contract base what it so we are a well it and and what we try to do is to actually obstruct most of the complexity from the blockchain to really enabled us to reach outside of this crypto pepper we are holding so kind of target people which are less tech-savvy than we all are in this room and so if you start talking about financial application people have some expectation of white beings and people expect some kind of privacy so our users are expecting a certain level of privacy and actually it here is a fantastic - because it's a filthy creature it's fully transparent little container that privacy naturally and then first the realization that the interest for mixer came from some of our users because they wanted to provision when it there some of them I love you know thoughts on how about it for example they were saying it wouldn't provision husband wedding but we don't want to create that link between is how the wallet and article so that's why we really started thinking for us in a very simple use case how can you transfer Eve from from an harm provided to a large and what it without creating that that connection ocean so for us it's it's going to simple use it but it was really driven by request for just a few things the way is the explanation what we're trying to solve is let's say you have your debit card and we do you want to publish all your transactions from America and most most of the time people say no you don't wanna publish but that's what we're trying to solve because every transaction in Athenian space in Bachchan is I think privacy one of the human rights that they were launching pad and the Swamper point which is this is not about mixing large amounts because there's no way you can mix I had a million F throw because you need so many composites so many of the drawers is not going to be worth the time even as I'll use the banking system which this feels additionally to fundamental so this is just a small amount that you want to get privacy for for small purchases or whatever gas there's no way you can under your entire fortune it go through a mix uneasy of it's not going to happen okay now I want to ask you about this adex case a dex use case for mixers what does that look like sure so some nos Motor Show so like right now well that the program is indexed so horrible you bet you the experience and terrible liquidity volume so so we're right now using as a let's probe to to scare of the through pots which is very successful but but like like because like most objects is like they're not licensed tax people don't want to do to kyc but we also talked to a regulator it's like they want to they want to license or they were regulated the central exchange but then to enable to the name of the like larger or institutional investors to come to trade on the next because this is because we're close to Hong Kong Stock Exchange Commission so like for them like if you said to exchange you have to prove the orchestra is resaved which is really hard but for these networks this enter exchanged is like it's just a very native so you only always best to be safe and and then but but in traditional ways I have been a traditional financial backer also all right traditional PE if they want to buy us or buy some stock stocks they don't discuss shreelane they start to buy staking once they reach this in a month then they would release the news says when you will purchase like 5% to a select box shop persuade they were says I bought 2 percent of Coco Rogers but which you've already done so so like right now it's very hard even they do it on set to exchange people can see an item on today's USD TOS DC or dye transfer inches into exchange most most like it would be like a large purchase or even for even if they can discuss this problem but essential exchange knows that someone you know is a cooperative ha is going to purchase like what kind of tokens but for the central exchange we use mixer which will be our next stage so we can soak and like hide those kind of information for institutional investors it says our case the way that you've described these protocols they sound pretty much like their lair - they're like on top of existing block chance but like is there and then maybe a brown hair so correct me if I'm wrong but are there also like are they competing with those they're coming out with it built I don't think it's I think you're touching the subject of how humming - you - I see a huge growth as a scalability solution and there are companies and projects that are actually trying to solve that problem in I think in our case the mixers is we're trying to show that and in in case of tornado cash it's not aware to solution because we don't have any metal transactions of chain and we don't have any roadmap for that we are only gonna be working on aware one solution so every transaction is gonna be mine but to answer your question yes you can beat us zero Motorola Solutions our website okay I just have one question how much time do you have the answers so I have one last question but I also want to open up the floor although we only have 50 min on three there may be 10 minutes okay so I can ask the last question I'm gonna throw it out there that I will be opening up for questions so if you want to think about your question now I'm ready don't be good but I have one last question which I'm sure is like everyone's least favorite question which is about like regulators and the law so how legal are mixers and how do you deal with that how you think about it [Music] [Applause] I don't mean the cone I'm like rightness of it sauce and of that and anybody can see my coding because it's over something accommodated I'm not lying are you did are lost is packing University but uh yeah like in the traditional manager world agnostic on York Stock Exchange the even allows those have no point in very similar function as a mixer so you can do those cut up or you can like the broker can purchase stocks anonymously and I think somehow the legislation they can't figure out how to how to adopt Rob Jamie mixes maybe in the future but right now I don't think it's very friendly event like just like approach and it's gonna take the time it's for them to understand they just don't like innovation and creation stuff so we do think about the regulation about that Arjun and that's actually why operate an open-source project it's a separate application and it's not part of our team because it's such a great area that we don't want to make things too rapidly there is a clear problem with mixer is that if you use the mixer and video this company's looking at about change and it actually flag a lot less as we use a mixer and you start to kind of stain your homes and I think that's what we problem this four million I see two reasons with privacy as we meant you don't want people to know exactly much transacted - but you don't so way to preserve fungibility meaning that money interest should be one eternal irrespective of you know what sending it was very stable than either and now for regulators if you start to use a mixer they may actually take the Honan actually mixers can be kind of counter productive in that sense that Yocum may be fly and so then you have no way to actually exit your crypto to this yet system because you are ten and some exchange will not accept your cryptocurrency so i think this is a real problem to data that needs to be fixed by regulators ultimately on us but I think it's still missed its value to provide the technology hopefully hope that they will recognition we go in the right direction unfortunately we already receive some pressure from governments like Japan for example they ban the private cryptocurrencies that enable privacy like manera C cash so we are gonna have some issues with that I believe last year there was a one mixture that was teased by euro home they because it's very important how you advertise the mixture if you advertise your mission but you're gonna have some guys to know something you probably should never advertise it this way you're going to huge trouble so it's very important that we to make it a clear message to the government's and liberators that this is not our goal our goal is to have the criminal actions to enable privacy this is what the other Conservation's okay so thank you for answering that I can tell that it's a little painful for you appreciate it I think it was informative okay so I'm gonna open up the floor there's only one mic so I guess I'm gonna be running around and you actually came to me first and then you Thanks it just sounds like a question coming to the last it's interesting so the other thing that that problem can be actually addressed by hopefully coming identity systems where you can just construct a mixer that accepts for example payments only from identities that can prove that they have ki seed but without really get any more and that mixes mixer at least for the anonymity and this as good as says this anything else and authorities should be always right something I mean I want to say yes I mean this is clearly one potential ushion I think it is also possible thing to keep the proof so you may have your privacy but it is still regulation or government ask you to prove where the funds come from is preferable to being able to show that so you can actually keep that secret and only fewer requests that prove that you know the origin of the fund so I think there are solutions to to address that is what I think if somebody is gonna execute that solution that means there is going to sound a central company that is going to keep records of all those qyc applications and forms so that basically we're going to get another central bank necessarily but that moves the problem to how you exactly feel that is this is also present as you all know that prove that you have to I see sure but we're gonna give the power on the same subject as the last question I'm not sure if it was answered another question here but are there proposed technical solutions to tainted coins the idea of being able to take these tokens which should be fungible and are being made by exchanges to be non fungible is their proposed technical to treating them as fungible again on making changes be unable to recognize that assumption that there are some ideas how to solve that but it's not very easy to provide the solutions for example like everywhere should like during the address after its use and like use the new address for the a transaction at the smart contracts since you know all the mixers have like a wasp or contract and they already like companies like chain analysis they can basically parse all the transactions and detect okay distillate actually waits somehow mixer so that problem could be kind of solved by creative workers but again it's so in those ideas or in the air and we're not there yet to think about these problems right we're still a very very rare stage where we just need to solve how to do basic making for now then we'd be like later on once we figure it out we okay I think this might be the last question do you mind just coming up this probably won't snow my questions about the UX and implementing it it's obviously like having to make certainly great but if it might not be the best X here because everybody so how do we get people to actually want to use it and how do we have you tried the possible interesting yesterday immediately so if you find the stilled equation correctly you're awarded about the UI UX problems in here instead of the bonus I think his question was not so much just UX UI is bad but rather how do you get through the regular user to use it because if only irregular users are using it then it could become very kind of like tainted or think it must be seen as dangerous what you want is the regular users that kind of are saying no thank you personally I don't think the UX UI of mixer is that complicated I think you can give it I think I did a great job at hopper I think it is as simple examples because it's a nap time even put fancy UI on top of it but I think the steps actually easy to understand you can tell you either you send your third it's one key and then to be drew actually it's another meeting you invite the user I think the difficulty is to invite the user to behave smartly it went to be flow and I think that's the most difficult part in terms of your legs but again there are solution you can actually block the withdrawal and up to a certain time or they are still that can be in DWI level so personally I don't think requires will challenge production the main sharing a thing is is regulation I just think that users have to advocate about privacy and I think if I think made some Equifax accident that Snowden revelations people started acting differently and that communications useful in the long term so that people can do any more motivated use mixes I don't think we really have much more time but as I said responders a question I think that we should try and integrate with wallets and have this little feature similar with a browser where you have created by the top I would like to have created climate address I think that that's the only idea that people can understand and it's like the first step or like having these bigger pools actually was too cold you can eat our wallets basically you know they are invalid and actually within your wallet and creating credit or wallet and actually use a mixer to transfer some funds between those two I think so yeah what it is to reproduce what you do in Chrome your niihka little tab you can do it easily surveillance so I do believe that this is a nice way to to solve that problem into incentivizing those and make it simple for you [Music] all right I think we got a lot of points in I want to say thank you to our panelists for joining the second time I do this in two days but I forgot to introduce myself so I'm Anna and I'm the co-host of a podcast called zero knowledge we talk about topics that are related to this a lot of zero knowledge stuff so if you're into it please check it out cover your nose [Applause] you