ETHKL Feb 2021: Rolling Up Ethereum with Hermez Network

okay uh thanks everyone for joining uh today is the fourth of february uh it's our february uh 2021 meetup title there uh with uh hermes network as our guest uh and before we start uh for those of you just uh joining the first time typically we do an announcement and monthly roundup of what happened in ethereum and then we'll have a sharing by a local dev um and then um jordi will share a little bit about hermes and we'll have a fireside chat where myself and everyone else can also uh ask him questions so uh for some announcements uh we have next monday uh access malaysia uh is gonna do uh evening with the taxes uh or um exchanges uh they're gonna host uh luno tokenize and synergy all three of the regulated exchanges in malaysia uh and feel free to join if you wanna um hear about their thoughts on the space um sorry i get i've got i got a comment that my line isn't very clear um give me a second i'm just gonna change my uh wi-fi connection quick okay uh if if i if you guys uh get any kind of like line breaking let me know i'll i'll make sure to change the um connection and um yeah so i can follow up uh on the second part later in the telegram group uh if there's any interest for a joint meet up with other meetup groups i'm looking at ethereum taipei because they share the same time zone as us um and it might be a little bit more of a chilled out uh meetup where it's not like a proper presentation and panel but just for us to meet their community and for them to meet ours our community so let me know if you guys are interested in that [Music] and oops some roundup stuff uh we have um first the first main thing is uh the the year in ethereum 2020 so uh this is done by josh stark and evan van ness i'll share the links later but if you guys want to like have a bird's eye view of what's happened in ethereum over the last uh one year that we always uh annually the best article to to read uh we also have uh reddit who's just announced a formal partnership with the ethereum foundation for those of you who kind of kept up with the news last year they worked with the ef to work on a scaling bake off of how to scale ethereum so that reddit can can implement their community points which are tokens for some of their subreddits um and interestingly kind of not related but there's i'm sure everybody here already knows there was a very uh popular subreddit uh called wall street bets that made uh news worldwide uh both within well mostly outside of crypto but also within crypto and uh it's kind of a lot of people would say it's kind of highlighted the need for uh defy for um sort of financial infrastructure that we're not relying on on big central parties for um then a third one is um the state of one five five nine uh so there is an eip1559 which is also a very interesting topic um on top of layer 2 scaling i'm highlighting here because last last month there was a little bit of drama with um some miners um kind of complaining or resisting uh the change uh for the eip and uh it's very interesting topic uh i'll also share like a a good youtube video that just explains it in in simple layman terms uh and the key thing here is just that we can have a more predictable uh sort of gas market or transaction fee market so that um i'm sure people here have experienced over the last one year especially how you can put in like a gas price that's already expensive and still end up uh not being able to execute your transaction um so this eip would definitely help a lot with that and also with some other uh benefits to the blockchain as well uh just last yesterday i think uh visa announced to doing like an api for banks to be able to buy um a lot of crypto uh not just bitcoin uh uh ether and especially stable coins so that's um kind of a good signal for what's going to happen in 2021 and um both cloudflare and the brave browser announced support for ipfs um this is also a completely separate topic outside of d5 and also very interesting potentially in the future we'll get them to to speak where it's about decentralized websites um and you can have websites that you don't have to host in a centralized server and the fact that they're being supported by two of the biggest sort of infrastructure providers on internet um is also very good for the space and lastly some local news um last month uh the lhdn or the tax authorities announced that even though malaysia doesn't have capital gains tax you uh well all of us are required to pay taxes if we are actively trading cryptocurrencies so don't ask how they'll track your trade uh trading if you're doing it on a kyc exchange that's already uh one uh clue um but yeah if you're doing it for um arbitrage as some of us have mentioned uh in a couple of glass meetups or just uh to trade in and out make sure that you will be liable for any uh taxes so yeah keep that in mind and track your uh transactions if you're doing that um yeah so that's it uh before we welcome jordy actually uh we have um a local uh developer uh atlas who will be sharing a little demo about uh his project so um least i'm gonna share it quick and let me see if i can find you okay uh can you hear me harry yes yes okay cool uh i'm gonna time you because we don't have that much time uh so uh between five to ten minutes uh just a quick introduction to your project um okay and you can share your slides oh right so i i start now uh okay i'm a founder of btcschools.net and uh btcschool.net is practical oriented tutorial site that work similar to laboratory schools so why we come up with this idea is because we want for in for people to interest people interest can enroll to blockchain work so we discover and share good responsibility because we see some of good responsibility in github they are unknown by others so we pick the good responsibility and put inside this website then we promote a beautiness of decentralized technology so far uh this btc school is non-profit website we just want to correct more traffic and build community and of course we grow together so uh that's all my introduction so i hope you guys can share my uh website to others so they can benefit from this tutorial website thank you okay thanks atlas um did you share the link earlier i yes i share in chat okay okay cool um yeah and and if i understand it right uh it's a lot of is for php developers right uh to help them um uh hold in in ethereum uh yes yes up to now is small in php because i'm most familiar to this with this technology but i hope in future there are other people can contribute other technologies so we can build up this community are better okay okay yeah so uh if anyone's interested uh reach out to atlas later and feel free to also ping some of the um i can see some of our smart contract uh developers locally are here as well uh and yeah anything that we can help to contribute on the community side uh would be very uh useful for everyone thank you so yeah thanks atlas um okay cool uh so now uh please all uh welcome jordy uh and jordy uh we've tested your slides uh feel free to start sharing thank you very much uh well i'm i'm geordi bellina i'm the technical lead of hermes but among all i'm i'm i'm an ethereum developer so i'm an engineer at the end that's a believer of the centralization and just working in trying to bring this information to all of them all of the all over the world so here i want to present the hermes projects project let me share the screen if i if i'm able to just share okay share so there we go so what's hermes well herpes is a uh a rollup uh it's a layer two solution mainly for sending for sending payments over ethereum right now when you are paying when you are doing a transaction with ethereum especially if you see the last days it's really it's really expensive uh yesterday for example i have to make a payment and i pay like 20 for a single transfer which is something that's crazy and why that happened that happened because uh decentralization is not free uh this introduction so the the quantity of transactions that can be done ethereum is uh limited this is actually a limitation of any blockchain bitcoin it's about uh 1000 transactions every 10 minutes and 30 minutes a little bit higher it's about 30 transactions per second or 40 transactions per second but you cannot grow more with the technology that we have uh that we have right now with the layer two solutions so many things has been proposed in the last in the last years in order to scale here we can see payment channels we can see uh side chains uh plasmas so there's different approaches and different solutions but recently uh we saw we saw that there is a conceptually a very simple idea that's the roll-ups that actually can scale it can give a much more one or two orders of magnitude more transactions uh at least uh so hermes it's about that it's about uh increasing the capacity of ethereum it's about increasing the capacity of the number of transactions that can be done in ethereum uh so that means that suppose if you increase the the offer then the price should of the transaction should be low but of course if there is a lot of people that's also using maybe not but that's why it's important to to scale to give to do as much transactions as we can so that everybody can use it at the transactions the the promises here is if ethereum at full capacity is 32 transactions uh with a hermes network the full capacity would be around 2000 transactions per second this is as you see is two orders of magnitude more and this is just the beginning this is just the first version this can increase uh can increase uh a lot so what's the idea behind a rollup how a roll-up works well roll up it's like a you can see it like a uh like a side chain it's if you're in this a normal imagine it's a normal blockchain what's a blockchain at the end of blockchain is a database of balances okay you have transactions and you are processing those transactions so you create a new state with the new balances so when you are transferring from one address to another you are subtracting from one addresses and adding to an address so when you have a balance this balance can be harsher you know can be with a miracle group can be compressed but can be hashed with just a 32 bytes uh uh 32 bytes number it's just a very small number that represents uh the full state so you process all these transactions and then you create a new state with many of these balances modified because you're transferring things okay so you are increasing so you have a state route then you have another state route another statement so the way to increasing these balances is through a smart contract is sued through a transaction so mainly what you are doing is you are sending all the transactions to a smart contract and the smart contract creates a new a new new balance okay but and then you can so you can have like a blockchain inside the blockchain okay that's the idea of the rollout but why the roll-up scales why can we make uh much more uh transactions well this is there are two kinds there are two kinds of of of roll-ups it's like the optimistic or lots of zika roll-ups uh but the idea is that uh so if you just put the transactions on the on the smart contract the problem is that the smart contract needs to verify that those transactions are valid what means that those transactions are valid well for example that the transactions are well signed or for example that you are not sending more money than the one you have okay so you need to verify that if you have a smart contract that needs to verify all those transactions this would be very very very very expensive so how can we reduce this verification how can we make a smart contract at the verification the cost of verifying all these transactions is very very very very small well actually there is two techniques is the optimistic roll up and then ck roll up optimistic roll up mainly what it means is okay you just put the new estate and assume that's valid and if somebody sees that's not valid then you can challenge and then the people challenge and then uh actually the the the coordinator the one that published the one that published these new transactions and things to send a proof that actually this this this transaction is valid and so on and there is this game this gaming on the optimistic world in the other side thinking rolex what we are doing is we are using a new technology that's not called zika zika snarks uh and actually ck means zero knowledge suction non-interactive uh so it's association but the important part is this success so actually what are we doing well we have a a primitive a cryptographic primitive that actually what you can do is you can execute a program in this case for example it's very verifying all those transactions which is a very expensive across component computing very expensive uh computation you can execute the program but instead uh so the idea is that i execute i can so the coordinator can execute the program can check that everything is is is good calculates a new state that's i'm assuming that's valid and then you just send a proof which is a very it's a cryptographic proof that the computation is done in the right way and the cool thing of this technology is that this proof can be verified or chained and very very very very cheap so we can compress we can all this huge computation maybe just taking 2000 transactions and verifying in all the everywhere that uh you know that it's valid that the signatures are valid and everything that this is that's very very expensive you had to do it with gas it would cost uh trillions of dollars trillions of of of gas you know it would be very very expensive we can't put all this calculation and just create a proof and say okay this is the initial state this is the extra state this is the transactions that we are processing and with this proof i warranty that this state is is valid is computed in the right way is that in the right way the transactions are valid okay and this and the verification that's actually what's done in the consensus is done in the blockchain in the smart contract this is very cheap it costs like 200 000 gas it's it's constant and it's constant time it's constant time it's constant gas it costs that that thing and this is what allows us to put a lot of transactions in ethereum uh a lot of transactions ethereum and uh uh just put this proof and then we we escape okay so here we have in general the rollouts consist in dividing the problem into problems one is this computation problem that we see with that we saw with zika snarks actually we put to 2000 transactions but we could put more we can put millions of transactions and the cost would be exactly exactly the same but there is another limitation is that we are we also need to put the transactions on chain we need to send the transactions we need to put this data okay that's why we need to put this data because if uh there is an operator that just process transactions and puts a new state then this state okay you have a number there but you don't know where it comes from you don't know what transactions are there so the operator could just block which i say okay this is a new state but i don't publish this transaction so nobody knows how this state was calculated so it's important that this data is available it's important that this data is that the people can see this data so the way one way to do it is put this data on chain that's actually what i call up to there are other techniques and here is where we have validiums for example that they take this data and put it in a like in a federated servers or put it in something like ipfs or whatever other mechanism uh there are other alternatives for example you can you will be able to put this data in ethereum too in the shards of ethereum two which is great because ethereum two the promise is that you can uh you can put a lot of data very cheap there so you can put this data there so there is different mechanisms but you need to guarantee what we call it the data availability okay and this is ethereum 2.0 especially the the step one the sharding when you can put this data this will solve that that's why it's so important that uh for a scaling um the ethereum ethereum two because we have this data this is that availability and actually if you see the theorem 2.0 roadmap uh that is that availability with the roll-ups this is what we make actually to scale a lot uh effing okay so well we talked a little bit about this is that availability okay and yeah that's that's that's mainly how a roll up however works okay so you have different transactions you are just processing and you are advancing but who forgets those transactions who creates who forgets those those those those batches those those blocks who make those transactions well this is we call the coordinator but here we have some point of uh centralization there so let's find the coordinator and then i can for example censorship somebody okay or i can decide who i forge who i will not force you i can i can do a lot of things okay so this is a certain point of centralization so how we solve uh in hermes well in terms mainly what we know is that anybody can be a coordinator and how we do that well mainly what we do is we divide the time in 10 minutes slot actually 40 blocks as well which is about 10 minutes and the there is an auction so anybody can beat for one of those uh for one of those uh slots if you are the winner of this building then you will be able to forge as many uh transactions as many uh batches of transactions as you want or as you can in that in that ten minutes as well and of course all the fees of those transactions will go to you so coordinators will have to see okay what's my operating cost how much transactions i do i think that i'm gonna put inside how much feed do you think that i'm gonna get and then i do a beating i'll go bidding on there okay so here is a way of selecting what's the best what's the best uh uh what's the best coordinator okay so this is the kind of a bidding on how the the the system the system works there is some other details for example if there is no nobody meeting then we will run a bootstrap coordinator but the idea of harvest is uh we will start a little bit centralized and the idea is to decentralize as much as fast as we can so the idea is to build a uh center uh censorship resistance decentralized uh layer two solutions so that we can at some point we should not have any control at all over the network and i hope that this could be as soon as as soon as as soon as as soon as possible okay so this is the idea there are some attacks you know for example somebody at the beginning may have may buy all the blocks and things like that and then we have some specific mechanisms i don't want to go deep on there but we have some different mechanism uh about protecting that so here we have different programs here we have different types of slots and and the idea is that we can uh maybe we can decentralize the even the even slots and the odd slots maybe it's more expensive and we we have some techniques for the for the bootstrapping for the beginning so so that the network can run uh can run smoothly at the at the beginning where it's more dangerous where the decentralized systems are more dangerous in general okay uh of course here is uh what happened but even that it really is a mechanism so imagine that that all the operators that are there um uh just sensor uh sensor somebody or sensor for example some token says i don't want to uh mention that censors you well what happened with the people that has uh money there well they can do for example they can force an exit and this is done with a layer one transaction so they can do a transaction and then in the next uh the next uh forge so in the net every next time that the forge is is is is minded uh the transactions needs to be included if not the block will not be valid okay so with this warranty that there is no censorship well maybe there is censorship because you will not be able to use the the this follow-up but you will not lose the either you will always be able to get the the the money get the tokens and maybe use another roll up or or the order one so we have this mechanism of censorship resistance and of course if there is operators then you have a timeout and then you can even you can yourself fortune you can you sell force a block in that case okay we also include atomic swaps atomic swaps a transaction you need to the transaction that's only valid if another transaction is also included there so this is very interesting for uh for decentralized exchanges to be built on top of uh hermes that's something that's in the in the protocol okay uh we have also i i don't have a slide for that but we also have a massive migration system so that we can uh cheaply transfer from one uh so from one smart contract from one wall up to another wall up or things like that okay so that's uh that's that's mainly it we are we were working before mainly in the hermes we are the ideal three team mainly we were working a lot in the in the zika snarks tool and mainly what we are doing is we are taking these tools that we made by uh that we made by identity mainly but we are building this uh roll up that we believe that's important for for residue i don't know who my why in time but for me that's the presentation that i was prepared that i prepared okay cool thanks uh jordy um a very uh succinct uh uh presentation um um so next we'll do uh just a fireside chat uh just so uh we can ask jordy a little bit more questions about not just hermes but uh like ck roll ups and uh scaling in general uh if you guys have any questions feel free to put it in the chat and i'll make sure to ask um or you can wait until um like after i i've finished asking asking jordy my questions then you can unmute and ask yours so up to you um but yeah so i have a bunch of questions uh prepared uh all around um roll ups and and and hermes um and the first thing um to ask actually is for the people here who may not be very clear on what's the difference between the uh scaling methods uh would you be able to share at first the difference between uh e2 and layer 2 scaling um if 2 is is is an evolution of the layer 1 i would say it's a proof of state there is a consensus of different consensus mechanisms that includes uh sharding actually is the same that we have in ethereum one but just making more um scaling from the from the basic layer but this is quite difficult okay so this is the evolution of ethereum ethereum has his its roam up uh we started with this beacon chain uh now with next step is just putting this sharding and start of all the migrations there is different phases you can check any of the ethereum 2.

0 scans but rollups is something that we have it right now it's something that can be run even in ethereum 1.0 actually ethereum is going to run in 31 so something that's still there and but they are absolutely complementary things as i explained before you know volaps solve the problem of uh the um validation of the transactions of scaling the validation of scaling the processing part you know the the it's the idea is that there is one person it's a with a big computer that computes uh that do these validations and create generates this proof and then the in the consensus layer so that all the other nodes in the network they just uh validate they just validate that very cheaply okay so this is something that in the with the roll-up technique and the but the other thing and this is important ethereum 2.0 is that availability so at the end it's like a huge it's a world storage a world hard disk where you can put data there and you guarantee that this data is going to be there forever and nobody can delete and check but with a with huge amounts right now a block a normal blockchain doesn't you put a blockchain in bitcoin for example and this data is gonna be there but you know you are gonna put some bytes uh the ethereum i read the other day that they are planning to do one they want to put 1.5 megabytes per second which is huge it's like you just do the numbers but that's a lot a lot a lot of that and all this data is gonna be uh it's gonna be available so with this data and with uh with this uh with the roll ups then is when you can you can escape with roblox we start with uh we start with payments but actually you can build pull ups that you can execute a smart contract so you can do everything so instead of a payment transaction you can do a smart contract transaction and this can escape there is a lot of research that's done in in that way there is new primitives to optimize and to do things uh better that are currently in research phase or in in deployment phase but it goes together and the interesting thing is that uh the strategy of ethereum 2.0 roadmap is to join both uh to join both uh both ideas that availability with learnings of the roll-ups uh actually at the end they are mixing what was the old before you know in in all papers you see the execution environment this is a very very similar concept that'll roll up and actually it correlates like they mix one thing so uh roll up is kind of which environment but so like it works that way so uh we'll see but ethereum at the end is going to be a roll-up or a set of roll-ups with a data availability that will that will work together um and then the natural question well one of the natural questions after that would be um what's the difference between a zk roll up and um other l2 solutions uh or maybe just focus on zk versus optimistic rollout yeah i explained it a little bit before but the idea is that with zika roll up you just uh once the operator puts the transactions there you have finality you know that this transaction is valid cryptographically it's there you don't it's it's expensive to generate those transactions because you need to generate these proofs and this proof you need a lot of computation but once the transaction is there it's there it's done okay with optimistic roll up it's not the case the interesting rule up is i'm optimistic i just put the the you know the the the the the block the forged the patch in the transaction i just made the transaction and say okay this is the next state that this is the next state but uh the network actually accepts a brown uproar maybe there is uh one of those transactions that do not have a valid signature and the people continue working on there okay so uh optimistic relapse requires this uh gaming mechanism is that okay if somebody sees something that's not uh valid then uh you can challenge and then if you challenge you maybe you earn some money and then the operator can uh change a proof that actually is valid and if he sends a proof then they lose money so they are doing this kind of of gaming of of gaming so one of the consequences of that is that for example the withdrawals in optimistic pull-ups they there is a delay you cannot withdraw uh the tokens in the moment with zika roll-ups you can do it when the transaction is there so you know that the transaction is smooth so you can withdraw it very very very fast the finality is very is very fast but in optimistic you need to you need to white to white more okay but on the other side optimistic volaps that you you need to calculate the proof and one thing that's been mentioned between the two is how um uh well in in d5 especially there's this term composability and how um and and please feel free to correct me if i'm wrong but um what people have said is that um optimistic roll up allows you to be composable whereas zika roll up at least at this point uh doesn't provide that um capability yeah and actually can you also introduce composability for people who might not well at the end at the end it's executing smart contracts so that means that execution security smart contracts and and actually with uh zika with ck relapse uh um it's like it's very easy to put a fixed program for example just for transferring uh for transferring tokens but even you could you could add for example uh uh uni swap kind in there so you can do whatever you want in there but you have like a fixed thing okay so if you want to if you want to run the smart contract so you can have uh possibility and whatever you want in there then you need to do some valuable logic in there so you need to put a program there okay and this is uh this is more difficult actually it's doable the new techniques in uh ck roll up if you see for example uh plonk uh luca plung hello to all these new uh these new new cryptographic uh primitives that allows to do that they are very new they were like discovered like last year so people it's still learning how it works okay but it's there it's it's they're already there and and we will see all those primitives uh uh to become a reality in the in the upcoming years so compassibility and any kind of you will be able to run any smart contract on top of a roll-up that is absolutely doable it's just a matter of of of you know of time you know it's just a learning more about doing tooling and searching and putting there but it's it's actually it's actually it's actually possible okay with optimistic roll ups the cool thing of optimistic is that's easier okay because uh you don't need to generate this proof so actually this this challenge can be done of chain and then you can you can put a program where you can you can put more easy anything you want in there so optimistic roll up i would say that they they have this uh disad advantage uh that you you don't need to build this proof okay so because you are not building this proof you can do more things but then you have these other disadvantages of of you know delay and the game all this game theory that's behind it's not it's not easy uh to understand it's uh personally well i'm personally i'm a little bit biased and i'm a little skeptical with optimistic so that's the that's the that's the truth but uh uh but they are there you know there is people that sort of interesting projects that are trying that and and are putting that uh they're going to my net so uh we'll see we'll see but uh it's a kind of a strange competition because i don't think it's a competition it's just two technologies that are there and well we see some of each one with each advantages but and we will see what what's what are the ones that end up succeeding which not but it's uh it's new technology it's new things it's something that we didn't two years ago or three years ago and nobody knew about uh these roll-ups and all these scaling solutions so this is very neat yeah so um i think it's even been described as moon math zero knowledge it's i would say uh i don't think it's that i don't think it's that hard this month uh the problem a lot of times is that the if you see if you read directly that the papers and academics is you know they have very complex uh they have very complex uh terms and they have a way to write and it's like it's very difficult to access to this uh to actually understand it looks like moon mass that looks like something like you know something magic in there it's like you don't know exactly what's doing there but uh when you under when you more or less understand what it says and you go deep and you see it in the right way [Music] they are at least to to understand what's behind it's not it's not that complex it's uh it's it's i would say that uh a regular engineer with some with not very high degree of of of math can at least understand what's behind if they have the right documentation and you have to have the right book and or the right picture or the right way to access that if you go directly to the if it's the first time that you are reading one of these uh white papers uh you know research white papers then it's like oh that's not for me yeah just forget it's like for example i i recommend people for example vitalik has a very very good uh blog post uh about all these technology that and and they're explaining a very i would say in a very uh it's explained for people with uh high school math you know it's just very i tell you they are not easy you need to read them like three four times and go deep but uh but you can is is is successful it's a lot of things but it's it's doable it's not it's not that complex would you and i don't want to put you on the spot here because i i understand it's not uh that simple of a subject but would you be able to do like a eli eli five like explain like m5 of zero knowledge uh for us here yeah i explained it before it's like uh imagine that you have a normal program a computer program uh you know for example imagine a function that uh do the square root of a number you have x and you have the square root of a number and it's y okay so it should be a deterministic deterministic program so a program that you have given an input you do some calculus and you get the output and if you put the same input you get the same output okay and this uh and this program can be very very very complex can be a hash function can be a you know a lot of hash functions it can be a in the case of roll up is verifying 2000 transactions that are okay and that matches the state so it can be a very complex program but is you put inputs you get up you you put outputs okay so the idea of uh as uh as a snark of as you can offer zero knowledge uh of of zero knowledge professional snark proof is that um imagine a hash function so you have an input and the output is a hash or the square root let's put a square root you have an input and you have the square root okay so the idea is uh i can prove to you so i can so i can do that the computation of separation i can do a square root which is hard you know i need to invest but imagine that you are going by hat it's very hard process to to do the square root or the whatever okay and i give it to you and uh i tell you the result is this okay but how do you know that this is true you need you need to you one way to do it is okay you do the square root again okay which is uh well it's it's hard maybe you can do the square you can do the reverse there are some features that are reversible and in this case it's easy okay but imagine that you that's this process immediately it's a hash function the hash function is it's impossible by definition uh you do the you do the input i give you the output of the hash function okay but you see a random number but how do you know exactly that this is a hash function the result of a hash function well here what i can do is when i do when i calculate the prover when the approver calculates the hash function which can also calculate a proof and then i send you the result i send you the the proof and you very fast and very easy just getting this proof you know that this result is valid but you don't need to go through all the square rooting or the hash move the doing pushing algorithm okay so this is what about uh zero knowledge is and we call it zero knowledge because you don't even have to reveal what's the input you know that the result is the result of a square root or the result of a hash function you know it's a it was calculated with a so that the the the prover knows the input knows what's the input but you don't need to revert that input that's why it's similar because you're not revealing anything about the inputs and all the calculus that you are done inside you're just getting the result you're getting the proof and you know that this is valid that this is okay that is you don't need to go you don't need to check anything else you just check the proof and and and the proof is it's valid so that's that's and and this technology is as you can see it's very cool because allows to to do uh one person do this calculus do this proof and then uh you just send that to a blockchain it has a lot of limitations uh but and you but everybody can verify that very very very very fast and these proofs can be now this this program can be huge can be a lot lots lots of computations but you're compressing this computation you are just summarizing this computation with a single proof and you can verify that the full computation is valid with a single proof and this is the cool thing of the of uh of the serial knowledge yeah and i think before zika roll ups uh at least within crypto uh zero knowledge was discussed more about for for privacy purposes and uh we can clearly see from this example it's not just privacies also now you can batch a lot of things together right exactly you are hiding you are zero knowledge and actually in some ways you are putting a lot of computation so imagine you are doing a lot of computations in uh in a single proof so in some way um if this proof is very small it's very is you verify that there is no information there so this proof don't give you any information about the calculus it doesn't give you more information about the inputs okay that's why it's zero knowledge so it goes together if the proof is succeed in some way it also has this property of zero knowledge okay so that's uh that's the the cool thing when you give this routine you you get like the zero knowledge for free and the zero knowledge by itself has a lot as you say it has a lot a lot of other a lot of other applications for the privacy world that are very interesting you can prove that for example you are close so first for example that you are in a specific city without specifying exactly where you are or that you are very close to somebody or you can prove that uh the case of zcash you are for example proving that you have the right to spend some money but you don't know you are not saying uh which one actually you are proving that you have to write to spend some money and that that money has not spent before so that's what proof is in c-cash is you know it's like or in tornado cash for example that's uh this privacy the transactions but an identity you can prove it's interesting because you can um select for example select part of the data look like kind of a view for example you can prove that you are 18 years more than 18 years old but without revealing what's your birth date or you can't reveal that you have a balance yc passed in some country but without revealing the country or the agency that made that you can do on a voting system you can prove that you are in a census list that you can vote and that you didn't vote before but you are not regretting who you are so you get an anonymous voting so you have a lot of applications with this same technology the zero knowledge the general knowledge technology yeah and especially i guess uh for people in the catalonia region it's it's it there's a lot of meaning behind uh having this kind of uh zero knowledge capabilities as well i imagine yeah well well you know in catalonia we at some point we try to we try to to organize a referendum that was censored by the by the spanish by the spanish state so there is a lot of uh interest uh of uh being able to vote and there is a lot of projects in catalonia that in some way they were born in the october the first was this this when catalina tried to do the independence referendum and yeah because people realized that that was that was important also the well when you are when there is a lot of people that's uh in prison and it's persecuted by the spanish authorities spanish authorities they are just monitoring the internet and monitoring all the communications uh they just change the load so they can do it whenever they want uh well was that when you when you have a state that's uh working that way well the there is a lot of interest because if there isn't there is a necessity for for this uh for this privacy and it's i would say it's a quite legitimate privacy it's because of people is they are not the risk they are they want to kill anybody they don't want even to hurt anybody they are not violent they just want to decide by themselves and and be a country like many others in the world that's that's that's the only thing but that's why in qatar there is a lot of interest in in privacy and voting systems and in this these technologies yeah but this is but i'm sure that many places around the world they have also these these these these needs and these requirements and this sensibility about these topics yeah it's really cool i think in malaysia we don't necessarily have that much of a uh need uh for these things uh so it's cool to hear about what you're looking you're looking here yeah anyway i'm not gonna get into uh local politics um back to the um sort of uh layer two stuff uh one very interesting question um that has been asked uh is there's a difference between layer two and side chains um are you able to like share a little bit more about that and and what does it mean uh to have a layer two that's uh like native to the blockchain versus a side chain that has its own consensus yeah exactly the difference is this one is that the side chain is has their own consensus system for example you see excite at the end it's a it's a proof of authority it's a consensus mechanism to create a chain and then there is just a bridge between the two chains uh this bridge most of the cases is uh um it's a federated system it's a system where you know have uh like a multi-sig and then if you have a three out of five or i don't know at 10 out of 21 and they sign one transaction and then they block it in one side and move it the the move the asset to the other side and the other way on the other way around this in general what we understand with a side chain or a packet chain if you want a layer two solution in arvola uh of course has this concept of their own their own chain of of blocks so it's like they have their own state and you are moving from one but there is no consensus mechanism people so the people that's participating in the layer two they don't need to agree in anything for uh for the consensus we are using layer one okay for deciding which is the next block this is not in the layer in the layer in the layer one it's not decided by the uh but by the layer by the layer two and this is the the difference we don't have you don't have to build another chain with layer two you are just using the the layer one so the the chain on the layer one for the consensus mechanism and you are adding on top of that this technology so that you can put more transactions okay cool um yeah i hope that helps i i know there's at least one or two people uh that would uh were very interested in that question um but but we we hear about a lot of these um sort of scaling solutions and sometimes they're called l2 do you know if there's any like easy way for any kind of community member to kind of like pick out certain details to very easily tell whether something is a l2 or a sidechain l is from layer okay so layer two is okay it's like we say layer one what we have right now and we're building a layer on top of that that gives an extra functionality in this case the scalability or if you want we are giving the throughput so we are able to build uh much more transactions per second but this is a this is a but this is a convention you know we're calling this layer two was this kind of solutions but if you see at the end what we are doing is we engineering you know it says where we have layer one and then we are putting uh this case is a smart contract with some topic here in layer two but actually we could put for example we can put a functionality for a camera for giving for example fast fast finality and this would maybe would be in top on layer 2 and we can call that layer 3 if you want but at the end it's uh at the end it's a convention uh i like i better like to talk if it's a roll up it's all up it's a documentary it's optimistic it's better to to call by their name what you are doing on top of that because if not it's like very people is doing whatever this is layer too well yeah but why not it's uh what's better to explain exactly what you are doing or if you want what functionality are you wearing or what are you uh yeah what are you achieving and what implications has it's better to understand actually what you are what you are doing that just saying this is layered okay yeah i think that yeah asking what exactly this is uh i think generally helps even back in the ico days you know if you ask a project you know what exactly do you do then you kind of unravel a lot of things uh sometimes um okay uh to go back to hermes itself um what would you say are uh i know you mentioned some of them already but if you could kind of like list the the unique differences between hermes and other zika rollups yeah in hermes is as i told you we want to build a decentralized censorship full decentralized censorship resistance mechanism we want to be a community we want to be a community uh a community roll up what that means for that for example in hermes uh all these um from all for all the billing where it goes when the when the operators beat on that where where these uh hermes uh goes well there is part that's just born and it's important to be burned because um if not you can do this kind of cycles you know it's like operators can just recover so it's important to burn there is a part that's born there is a part that goes to to layer one system uh we need to understand that uh since again foundation probably go through some kind of bitcoin or some some mechanics but in any case we will not control where this where this uh money will go where this hermes tokens will go uh and this is important to maintain the layer one we need for the people that's building layer two solutions need to understand that they are leaving thank you to the layer one it's important that the layer one continue it's important that the layer one evolves in this case to ethereum two uh but it's like it's important that you know that the clients in the three work one works okay miners work okay so it's important to invest uh in the layer one so that's why in their mess we put uh uh i think it's 40 of the of the of the building that we get goes to the layer one and the other will be uh uh send back uh kind of our drops to people that's using the same the same uh the the users that are using the develop so here we have all the in some way we have all the other questions and all of these decentralized so we don't have any control on that so that's that that's the main thing that we are that we are building from the more technical perspective for example we are using our tools this is very important also for for testing or tools or tools for july there are other important projects that are already using our tools like tornado cache or the the game the dark forest game there are other projects that are using the the the the tools but having a wall up with a huge shell grid and so on so it's important also for the tooling to to secure it and to evolve from that so that's an important thing that's uh interesting and and goes also to the community and to other to help to other projects of course all the software we are doing is open source including all the tooling so the idea is that the and the community continue to to to false the final goal of hermes is uh like many people in this space is that everybody in the world can use cryptocurrencies as their normal as a normal currencies that's uh that's the the goal and thank you cryptocurrencies i would say any decentralized application free voting uh governance so but at the end is you don't need to ask permission to organize a vote or you don't need to ask a permission to send money to somebody or you don't need to ask permission if somebody you don't need to if somebody sends money to you it's yours nobody should be able to install your money in any kind so that's that's kind of basic principles but that this is what this technologies will will allow we're still very early stage uh but at least from the technical even from the personal perspective is very exciting to be in this living in these times because we are building all this new world uh i wanna like uh circle back to a couple things you mentioned uh in that answer uh so you mentioned building tools and i think uh one of those at least is a tool called sircom zero knowledge it's just when you are we talk about this deterministic program that actually you generate the proof so you need how you you cannot use like a normal language there you need to write this program in a specific way so circle mainly is a tool that helps you to write uh programs for for uh then you can generate these this this this proof and the other is a snark js that actually takes it goes together with circle but actually it's the what generates uh actually what generates the proof and all the verification keys and all the all the tooling that you need the smart contracts for refine that so all that all the tooling that you need to to use this uh zero knowledge and you mentioned that this is open yeah yeah so you mentioned it's being used by dark forest and and um one other project at least yes tornado cache um so so strictly speaking it's not just for scalability right um no no no no no no it's you can use it this is a cks mark so it's a disprimitive but as i told you before it's like you can use it for privacy solutions and you can use it for scalability solutions in general for skyrocket solutions we are seeing huge circuits with a lot of constraints that are run in a cluster or in a some have a computer that's generating the circuit and um small circuits maybe for are for work for privacy and in general they are running the same browser it's for voting or for doing sending an anonymous payment or for for for proving uh some private privacy so some private data to somebody so these are in general there are different kinds of applications but the tooling is the same the the cryptographic primitive is the same and you can write a small circuit or a pixel and silicon allows you to do to do both so we can say any any developer here who might be interested to do either privacy stuff or or scaling stuff can explore uh using those yeah i would recommend that goes to silcom or goes to snark js and there is a good tutorial there it should not take more than an hour to run the tutorial and there is a lot of explanation in a very easy way how to understand it is you don't need mood math just to write circuits is the tooling that's everything for you it's just writing it's like writing normal programs some specific some specifics but at the end is writing a a normal program there so i would i would people interested i would recommend to go there even if if we have for example in knight and three this is not that you can see but if you go uh you can go to the we have a telegram group there so we are giving i'm giving support myself with uh with circle and snarks yes so i mean that that's really interesting can go there and go to the channel ask questions there there is an incredible community there that is not myself anybody in the community will answer and it's uh yeah it's a new technology but it's uh technology that's it's taking off now and a lot of new things can be done you can go for example that dark forest is like the first game for example gaming uh you can play you know you can play chess or you can play well chance you play cc but you can play poker you can play any random game or you can do your own game and do it without the need of a centralized server so it's like i can play poker with you and without having to trust anybody how we do that well using zero knowledge is what way and you can build a uh a game like a poker for example to to do but it's like i'm saying poker but you can say or you can say whatever whatever whatever game that you can build for that so gaming is a full industry that will help that that will help to use especially when you want to do decentralized decentralized games yeah and i would i just mentioned to anyone interested like there's a lot of hype around anything zero knowledge uh or games or other uh applications if you were to work on it you might potentially be literally the first in the world to do something around that uh that theme that you're working on so yeah it'd be something cool to try that's a cool thing of this space there is so many things to do it's it's a new it's a new it's a new space it's like uh when you check is there it's new technology that's coming so everything needs to be done and and just people coming here it's just okay just to stay studying for a while to see what the people is doing and i promise you that in less than one year you will have 10 projects exciting projects that nobody did it before and that you can do it and yeah that's very exciting that's very that's a very exciting uh what it's not like working in the bangling exactly the same programs especially for developers is is it's another you can it's much more much much more open it's uh rabbit holes uh below rabbit holes yeah it's also for example this this space is cool because uh we don't have uh i would say we don't have uh a lot of competition yet it's uh if you go to more mature markets it's like you know they are killing each other just to to get their space here is it's so big that's like okay if somebody's doing something you can do something else that's just with the other side and it's it's it's a lot it's a lot of space and a lot a lot of things to do um in front of us uh i see uh dash uh i don't know your name here uh put in the chat box can you share another example of this uh can you clarify though uh what example do you mean like what other games um so so uh okay so dash says uh like the poker analogy so i imagine any other um example use cases yeah um applications yeah it's uh look at i i will give you a um this is free there are other ways to do but it's like imagine that uh i don't know it's uh [Music] let's see uh well in the case of the dark forest for example what they're doing is okay they have this uh the planets that they discover so and in order to discover that you need to do this kind of proof of work so you need to do some some some work in there but so if but you want to prove that you discover a planet but you don't want to uh disclose so you want to prove that you have a planet that you that but you don't want to disclose where your planet is okay uh so actually what they are doing is they are creating a zero knowledge proof so they are computing they are checking that this place is in the uh has a planet but you are not revealing this position so you can prove in a smart contract that this was that you have that you that you are the owner of a planet and the others knows that you have that planet but they cannot know exactly where it is things like that but it's like uh you can uh you are doing for example you are the case of a poker system that you you get uh you get a deck and you are mixing it but you don't want so you want to you give the solution you give you you give to the to the other side but uh you want to prove that you are not adding more cards and that actually the mix is exactly so it's the same set of cards with a different mix but you'd only mix it you don't generate new cars you remove cars or do some some tricks in there so it's like you are doing something privately uh following the rules but and then you send the result which should be maybe encrypted or whatever but you know that it's uh it's following the rules that you didn't you didn't mess up inside so this is very useful for this kind of for this kind of uh games yeah and i think uh it might be best just to like try playing uh because listening to someone explaining isn't the same as like actually playing do the tutorial it's like i tell you it's worth it if i send you a developer there just go to the snark jes the readme of the story yes and also in the circle but especially if it's last videos i think it's more updated there or if you want both you spend one hour i promise you that you will not at least for the tutorial you will not spend more than that uh but yeah i can i can tell you that probably this is like a drug maybe you are going to realize that you can do a lot of things and then this this can change your life but for the first is just do one hour do the tutorials just go there just check what you can do there and uh yeah it's exciting it's just if you have any questions just asking the channel what's easy so it's uh and it's you will discover a new world uh in there yeah uh yeah and for the non-developers you can try playing the uh dark forest game uh i'll share the link later you can find i think you have to apply for keys uh but yeah it's very it's very effective it's very addictive i tell you it's like i've been playing i had to stop playing because it's okay i'm not gonna do anything else in my life if i continue with this uh playing this these these games it's very it's a very cool game it's a very it's it's very nice and it's but i tell you it's very very very it's too addictive for me uh yeah i think uh there was um a report that came out last month or december that uh like the x die uh side chain got like its highest fees by far and it was all because of people paying to uh the gas fees to uh to play the uh dark forest game so yeah just the shows i remember i think one was one it was the second version or the third version they just break broke props that's why you have to move to x die i think yeah that's crazy that's crazy that's uh that's interesting and that's why also we need the scaling these games are very interesting but uh we want everybody to be able to play them if not they are very boring so it's a lot of people playing in those games and in order to to achieve that we need to we need to scale we need to put a lot of transactions in the chain yeah that's what is about i have one final question for myself i i do realize there's uh you know there's a couple questions already from people and i don't want to forget asking them uh uh so last question for me is so you mentioned uh the the proof of donation and the whole auction system um so how do you make it such that the amount of uh funds that is going to be given to l1 uh to be done in a sort of decentralized way where there's no like subjectivity of like okay i'm gonna give it to bitcoin instead of some other grant or or who do i channel these funds to and how we uh right now we uh here we will ask uh we'll ask uh uh we'll ask an ethereum address so we don't want to so this is not or we don't want to deal with that i think that this is uh like another problem so maybe what we probably will do is we will ask to the ethereum foundation or whatever to give us a material address but probably they will give us a uh bitcoin you know a bitcoin grant address and we would just uh send all the money all the phones there but we don't want to we we just want to for instance we we we we have a lot of problems ourselves so it's like that our system is difficult enough so what we need we understand that we need to uh donate these uh uh fonts to the layer one i will not save and donate i want to say best uh in the layer one uh we need to warranty that goes to the layer one that does not go to i don't know some random guy okay but besides that uh besides that uh we don't want to decide anything anything else on there so uh i know that for example there are other projects with those and that are working in that way i hope that at some point uh these phones can go to a layer one down or whatever more decentralized system to manage these fonts but as i told you this is this should be uh another project uh so just be clear the hermes or hez token i guess there's no governance use for this token we are trying so what we are trying is to have as less governance as we can so we are minimizing governance as we can at the beginning is going to be a little bit of governance because uh we are not fully decentralized at the beginning we can for example upgrade the smart contracts with some time lock but we can do things things like that we have some escape hatchets at the beginning so we have some security mechanisms that at the beginning it's a compromise between security and decentralization okay but we want to disable those mechanisms as soon as we can and the idea is that all the all these fine-tunable parameters that at the beginning are going to be a little bit centralized the idea is to remove the power of modifying them and at some point the system should not have any should not have any uh any anything that can be can be done by the by the governance okay if it is if at some point for example this ethereum you know this layer one address okay maybe it's not soft and then we need to decide where where which is this address okay or where is this governance and then maybe at this point if if there is no way to decentralize that then maybe we will uh create a project or we'll use a double project about that but this is like the last resort so that's the last thing that we want to do if we can't do it without uh if we can hard code if we can do it without a doubt then much better that's that's the that's uh that's the goal so it's like minimizing the governance we want to have a system that runs by itself that do not depend on us that's fully decentralized and that works alone it's a fully decentralized system that's the that's the that's the the main goal of of herbis i think that's interesting yeah that's like yeah uh i was gonna say i think it's interesting that you're going against the the current trend at least in d5 of having governance uh tokens uh and i personally like to to see that um yeah it's like for me governance is uh yeah it's problematic i don't know it's like we're not recording is very good for things but if we can if you so if you can do it without governance that's much better governance is because uh well uh you do have other another option there are things that are uh needs to decide decided by humans okay but uh transferring uh token uh you don't need the governance to transfer bitcoin has what i i wanted to say that bitcoin has no governance probably that's not true but uh uh but at least we want to be uh to have as less governance uh as as we can yeah um yeah like i said i personally uh uh like that uh stance as well um and i think especially coming from catalonia you probably have a better sense of the kind of possible messiness of of of getting human but this this this censorship resistance this privacy all these values that uh that are important for us of course or even it's the freedom itself you know it's if if you never had the need about freedom if you never had the need about privacy if you never had the need about censorship resistance uh probably you will not you would not appreciate or you at least in order to appreciate you need to do an intellectual um effort to to to understand that but the people that uh at some point had the lack of freedom had the lack so that they needed the privacy and they you know they needed this uh censorship resistance they need they need this decentralization then is when you actually you you you change your mindset you get you see the importance of those values so it's important for that privacy privacy for example is is something that yeah that's a typical thing it's like people do not care about privacy until they need the privacy but actually when they then when they need it because they are not never having private then when they they are using something private is like okay you are you want to hide something if you are using privacy by default if you are doing everything private by default then you will have privacy that's why it's important that the privacy to be by default because if not it's useless if you just use privacy when when you need it but this is like this is for all these for all these values if you are using a system that's uh uh sense that's not censorship resistant uh what you're gonna need whether you want to change the system it's it's it's it's important to to have these uh values as a before but this is what's the blockchain about okay uh cool so uh i i wanna make sure we do finish on time or almost one time um i have a couple questions uh i saw in the chat if anyone has any questions you can um put it in a chat or if you want to ask yourself you should be able to raise your hand and i can unmute you i think um let me know if that's not the case uh but um uh which one says thanks jordy for being here today he has to go uh thanks uchan for uh for joining um uh okay so one question is from iman he's asking um on the massive migrations that you mentioned earlier how is that going and is l2 interoperability something that other roll-up projects are working maybe together with you or separately yeah this is a very early stage of that because the roll-ups are just starting right now and now we are already talking about how the these roll ups interconnect in some way uh or the other but um and it's very early it's very realistic in order to first interconnect you need to have different roll-ups and so on but uh the idea is this so imagine that for example you have a uh hermes roll up and you have a uni swap can roll up okay and there is a lot of traffic there is a lot of transactions that goes from one to the other uh the naive way to do that is you exit to layer one you transfer to the other roll-up and then you deposit in the other column this is very expensive and very inefficient okay so massive migration actually what it does it just aggregates uh so aggregates for all the transfers that you want to do from this roll up to this other column okay so they aggregate all these in so they pack them they pack all these transactions okay and then there is a single layer one transactions that actually move all the phones from here to here and then here we just again in layer two they just uh put back all these and put the balances in the in the right way this can be done with the zero knowledge so you can compact this and have the proof that it's packed and then in the other the packing is okay you warranty that follows the same packing than that and this is what's about mass expressions but it's about communicating the communication between roll-ups and when i'm saying communication is not only about talking it's also about transferring value but don't uh in an aggregated way in a massive way so that you know you instead of having uh thousands of transactions that go in in the later one you compress all of them you are doing that in a single layer one in the single layer one transaction and this is very important because this is what we allowed to have may have they will allow to have like an ecosystem of roll-ups if you want the consistent of smart contracts if you want but an ecosystem of different applications people can build their own application with their their you know roll up and then they will interoperate and they will not uh collapse they will not uh fulfill the the later one because these these transactions can be aggregated on that this is i would say this will be very important it's not very important now but most importantly will be very important but again this is very early um uh very early stage technology we need to see how all these other goals uh at this point do you have any estimates of the the uh gas saving uh the cost saving it's about 90 it's it's it reduces one order of money so if a transactions uh if a transaction costs you two dollars maybe in a rollup it would cost uh 20 cents more like i said that's depending on the quantity of the transactions and there is a lot of variables in there but a good order of so it's one order of magnitude less this is uh this is a normal i would say this is a good uh and compared to the to the naive method of using l1 yeah this is this is what i'm comparing so if you are doing a transfer in layer one if referring layer one costs you two dollars in doing the same in layer two would cost you around 20 cents this is a starting point but the roll-ups the promise of the roll-ups is that this will go low because the capacity will be like okay cool then uh another question is from uh seema vohan uh he's asking uh and i'm paraphrasing here uh please feel free to correct me uh there's permissioned and permissionless blockchains um how is it different uh in um how are they different in terms of security well our permission blockchain and permission to blockchain that means that there is somebody that has the key of the of the of the the key of the box um permissionless you can anybody can use it and nobody can censorship uh nobody can censorship that so from the security perspective is uh well uh what happened if this central point uh or whatever and it's like i even the problem of centralization is um not even about uh that this uh central actor becomes a bad actor it's very image that these central actors uh uh receive an attack of somebody else or or just receive some threats from a government or for somebody now it's like it's very vulnerable it's a point of failure okay so that's why it's important to have this uh to be have this uh decentralization this inter decentralization point and that if you know if if there is some operator for example that falls there is another operator that can continue forging blocks it's like miners in bitcoin or in ethereum okay it's like if you censor a miner it's it's worth less because there are many others i think one one good example can just be looking at facebook's um blockchain uh where you know they have like some 100 of the biggest companies around the world and they're still getting uh stopped by by the regulators um so yeah so that's one sort of live example yeah if you have the chance it's like well yes if you have the chance to enter to interview somebody from facebook i have a question for them i just uh just i just want you to ask them it's just it's what happened if there is a hard fork it's like it's i i will i will get uh twice uh the euros that i have in there that's a question for them just uh please ask if when if you have a chance to interview them okay i'll note it down to ask thank you yeah okay we're slightly past 9 30.

uh it is like one last question feel free to ask um otherwise the only thing i'm gonna ask from you jordy is um how do people keep track or keep in touch with uh hermes what are some links that that or channels that people can follow you yeah um i don't know is i will send you that i will send you the link let me put in the chat the link of the uh the link i don't know if tony's there can put the link of the of the hermes we have a telegram group we have a discord uh uh we have a twitter account right now that it's censored by the way it's i don't know what happened but it's like since we're just fighting on that that's crazy that's the problem of censorship censorship is it's crazy uh we don't even know why that's the worst thing and uh but yeah it's uh tony is i think tony should be here and he can he can he can put the links of the of the in the chat of the you know the different ways to contact to contact us okay and is there any difference between telegram and this caller is one for more for developers yeah it's like i would say telegram is more a generic channel where you know general news so where if you just want to see what's going on you can keep in there but if you want if you're a developer and you want to go deep in the code and you want to review circuits if you want to run the trusted setup ceremony if you want to ask more specific questions if you want to meet some of the developers then you can go you can go to the discord and to meet more the community in the community there uh at some point we probably will join them together but we started in this way so we are keeping we are keeping both for these different purposes i think that's common for a lot of projects right now yeah and for the you know for the we are keeping the ident three the three telegram group for for the touring part for the [Music] i'm sorry just a quick one um so is that uh can you describe the the difference or the relation between identity and hermes well mainly we are a project that we were building identity and we were building all these all these cooling systems and maybe we get that we bought the same people uh where you are the same team that we went to the same process but we just took the people we built the people from there and we created so so if hermes is for scaling and l2 uh identity is for um identity sense self-sovereign identity they are fighting three is to create a decentralized uh identity system the story is for identity you need you need to scale because identity you need to do claims and so you need to scale so we and you need also privacy that's why we were building this uh tooling for zero knowledge but for this tooling we saw that we can build also our wall up so it's a way we okay let's use this cooling that we have and instead of building anything we need uh them okay cool um yeah so uh i think we were five minutes past time uh we started five minutes late so i guess we'll end it five minutes late um thanks a lot jordy for for your time uh for your sharing yeah um thanks tony for uh for uh for joining as well um yeah so uh thanks everyone for joining um this is our february community meetup uh we'll have another one um first thursday of the month um in march um if you have any particular uh topics or particular uh guests you'd like us to uh to to invite uh let me know and yeah i'm going to find a link to our telegram group just in case people here don't have access or are not in there yet because i'll share the links that tony and jordy shared earlier and some of the other links as well in the telegram so yeah if you're not in there yet i've joined the group so you can see the links later um otherwise yeah um thanks thanks again for your time