Fireside Chat Vitalik Buterin, Ethereum Foundation, & Kartik Talwar, ETHGlobal I Pragma London 2024

[Music] two more interviews to go you know which one this is cuz the house is full and I can tell that all of you are excited so without further Ado let's jump right into it next up we have italic boering from the etherum foundation and we're going to talk about all things scaling welcome V the mic's uh behind you there a mic behind me oh amazing it's a mic okay um but is the mic on I believe it is okay well I accidentally offed it but now maybe I oned it again so it's on okay happy P day oh um oh is it half half to day already that's amazing yeah well happy Hal toow Day to you um there's a lot of things want to talk about but uh what we want to do is mostly focus on the the rollup or rather just the scaling road map for ethereum let's let's not go into rollups directly um yesterday was a really amazing day uh you want those days to be more non-eventful cuz the upgrade went really well and blobs are now finally here mhm so we're already seeing 90 to 95% reduction in transaction fees some of that went instantly for a lot of the the layer tws does that mean we solve scaling now well I mean so at the end of last year I published you know the updated version of these road map diagrams that I've published a couple of times right which are basically summarizing the perspectives of a lot of different you know developers and researchers that I talk to and have been tracking and the the in the uh The Surge part of that road map which deals with scaling uh we had uh two big Milestones there's basic rollup scaling full rollup scaling and for basic rollup scaling I had like basically two main prerequisites one of them is getting Proto tank sharting EIP 4844 and the other one is getting at least one roll up to what I call stage one which is basically a point where it at least partially actually relies on working fraud proofs that are implemented and running in the code right and arbitrum has been done a great job of just like leading way ahead of everyone on that um and uh now we have know blobs as of yesterday and I think as of you know a couple of days from now the two will link and arbitrum will actually be using the blobs um so you know we have officially hit basic rollup scaling um but but you know we still have full rollup scaling to go uh but I think uh the big thing to keep in mind is that from here it's like very incremental right um so for example the uh e EIP 4844 structure was designed in a lot of of ways to be very forward compatible with very smoothly updating things from here right so like for example to get from where we are today which is three blobs a block you know three about 375 kiloby to full dink charting with you know ideally 16 megabytes every slot the only hard forking change that's required is a parameter change everything else is just a different validation strategy it's just something that nodes can improve um kind of on the side passively even at different uh different times and at different rates and it's not something that know really needs to disrupt the functioning of the network right so that's one thing and then the other thing is that the uh the precompile was intentionally designed to return the modulus um this is you know the prime number that every all all of the math wraps around and the goal of that is to make it possible to also upgrade that over time um in the future in such a way that rollups would also be able to just kind of automatically adapt to whatever the new modulus is right and so what this means practically speaking is eventually we will I think uh move over from being based on kcg and know kind of elliptic curves and The Trusted setup and all that to Starks which are no fully trusted setup free and Quantum resistance and like it makes sense to do that when the technology is ready but that might require changing the modulus maybe making it 64 bit or something right but like these are things that were already forward compatible for right so basically things have been set up already in such a way that most of the ecosystem really needs to do either very little work or pretty much no work at all um in order to accommodate the rest of the uh scaling road map as it's going to come um going into the future that's awesome so you kind of covered a lot and you kind of already foreshadowed a lot of the the road map here but from the merge to The Purge were those two things so the only two outstanding things you talked about is 4844 and actually like the sorry level one rollups or so okay so basic rollup scaling um they required um I mean this is kind of arbitrary you know these are Milestones Milestones are arbitrary because miles are arbitrary um but you know the uh basically you know one was uh 4844 and the other is RS being at stage one what the Milestone called Full rollup scaling uh requires uh full dank sharding including like fully working data availability sampling um and it also requires stage two rollups where their security kind of actually only depends on the code right um so you know like fully yeah either removing I know what we call security councils or making them only active in cases where the code clearly has a bug because it's disagreeing with itself got it so how do we think about the remainder of those stages so what comes after the search well remember there's no these are parallel right there're oh that's a good point that's a really good point yeah so the six are there is the merge which is proof of stake and the merge itself is done but at some point upgrades to proof of stake particularly single swad finality are going to come then we have the surge which is about increasing scalability talks about that then we have the Verge which is likely to be the next big theme and like or least the next big theme to h a milestone um and The Verge is about initially trees than about verification and generally the theme is making it easier to run a node so you know who here runs a uh or has recently run a verifying ethereum node gu nethermind um you know any of those okay who here wants to who here would do it if the hard hard disk requirements were reduced to zero who here would do it if the sync time was reduced from like a couple of days to like basically 10 minutes um and keep that in mind then if if there's a bug and you want to like kind of you know restart the whole thing that also means that the process to resync is going to go down from like 2 days to 10 minutes um who here would be willing to solo stake if solo staking did not require a hard drive and I you know if you had to change the setup and only require 10 minutes of downtime instead of two two days so this is what the ver um who here would be willing to verify the full chain if uh not only did it not require a hard drive but instead of verifying a block you were only verifying a sark of a block and so the whole verification process only took like a few dozen kilobytes um of data and like possibly 10 milliseconds of computation who here knows what a sark is um who here knows what who here wants to know what a snark is um who here knows what a shark is it's an older type of proof I'm actually it's I think I published in 2018 or so um who here has watched the movie shark NATO one two or three okay good three um okay see so uh you know this things like this are what the Verge is about right like and we know we're about verifying the chain and we want to make it as easy as possible to verify the chain like and we want like actually verifying the chain to be a default for people right and uh veral trees and snarking the evm and all these things are fundamentally all about that then and then another big one is we call the purge uh The Purge is basically about simplifying the chain removing unneeded features removing old history simplifying the code um and uh reducing the uh the load that nodes need to have so one big piece of The Purge is EIP 4444 uh which uh basically means that a regular nodes by defaults do not have to store the entire execution history um so that's going to also reduce the here here the state storage requirements of a node um massively right so veral trees hand um basically mean you don't have to store the state 4444 basically means that you don't have to store the uh know the old history and so both of those really really work together um and uh there's also just like a whole bunch of protocol and code simplifications so one big one that happened yesterday is the self-destruct op code now only works if like basically if you call it in the same transaction as when a contract gets created and that basically uh like it doesn't quite remove the op code I think we do want to remove the op code eventually but know that will happen realistically a bit later just to give can you tell us why that should be remov yes okay so well the reason why the op code got nerfed and is basically that the problem is that self-destruct lets you kill a contract even if the contract had an arbitrarily large number of storage slots and what this means is that there is no upper bound on the amount of state within that could change within a single block right if there is a single contract that had like a million different objects in it then within a single block if you self-destruct that contract then all million of those objects go away handling this Edge case and especially handling you know the possibility that like things might get reverted and all kinds of complexity is what what something that requires a pretty large amount of extra code on the part part of client developers now that self-destruct is gone we actually do have a hard limit on the number of storage slots that can change in a block and so a lot of things for client developers become much easier then in recently um the GU devs I believe pushed a PR to remove the the ability to support a pre merge um ethereum um and there's also I think in EIP to remove the need to support the concept of warm and cold um accounts which is like a very technically ugly thing that got temporarily introduced um as a result of the 2016 dots attacks so like basically just like a lot of like protocol technical Deb and protocol garbage that got accumulated over the years like the goal is to like actually try to clean it out over time right so basically you know we do not want the ethereum protocol to be something that just kind of keeps on accumulating junk and becoming UG and uglier and worse over time right we want it to becoming cleaner and uh the is about that and you know it's about making users uh lives easier in terms of reducing the amount that they have to the the amount that they have to store and you know making client AVS easier in terms of you know reducing the kinds of things that a a basic ethereum node needs to support um so that's the purge then you have the the Splurge which is kind of a catch all for pretty much everything else right so account abstraction um evm improvements um making the EV am of more friendly to supporting Advanced cryptography eof a lot of developers are excited about that um there there a bunch of other on is it actually just catch all or is it meant to just still have a few key things that you still want to improve I mean I think evm improvements especially eof and account abstraction are kind of the two keystones but I mean aside from that it's definitely pretty catch all and then finally there is the scourge which is uh dealing with economic centralization risk and mitigating it right so the B one big one of these is me another big one is issues that have to do with liquid staking and you know there might be other centralization risks that also come to time and come up from time to time and basically dealing with that and making sure that the ethereum protocol continues to remain decentralized and resilient against all of those risks mhm are those mostly we know what the solution is we just have to implement it and have to slowly kind of pace out when you get to deploy these releases or is it that these are some of them are actually open problems I'm sure I maybe will remain partially open uh for for a while um I think actually most of the most of them are at this point just engineering tasks that's actually great yeah yeah and I think um this is I think this gets to like one point and of one of the broader philosophical points that I think is uh really important to think about right which is that the ethereum ecosystem is um in the process of making a very big transition where the way that I see it is the first decade of ethereum is ethereum being this kind of mostly inwardly focused ecosystem you know developing things for itself you know focused on you know being Tech Geeks trying to satisfy Tech Geeks and I know creating beautiful technology um but the second decade of ethereum needs to be ethereum really breaking out and actually having a big impact in the real world right and like this requires a mindset shift on the part of basically all different of the different layers of the ecosystem um and you know on the uh side of core developers I you know definitely less attention on layer One issues in general and I think layer one in general is going to shift over heavily from a kind of Rapid change to maintenance and know I think a couple of years ago I think at a presentation at ECCC I uh I I showed the kind of s-curve diagram where at the beginning the protocol know changed slowly and then around you know for the last couple of years it's really ramped up to change quickly and then it's going back to changing slowly again and I think at this point we're actually well now that um you know Den cun is done we are well on the decelerating side of the scurve so you know the biggest uh changes I actually think are behind us which is amazing I mean there definitely are still big changes remaining right but you know the merge was huge right and I mean even blobs were huge right and even the philosophical shift from layer one focused ethereum to Layer Two focused eum was huge right but like at this point I know we're the like there aren't shifts of that level of magnitude still really still ahead of us at this like there are shifts that are maybe of you know like one step smaller than that um but at this point it's like getting toward doing much more iterative stuff right which is what you want and that's the desire exactly it is what we want um and the other big thing I think is that you know the primary locus of attention really needs to shift from you know just core development to application developers right and what's interesting in the application development space right is that the number of tools that we have gained to build um applications with is uh over the last couple of years pretty massive right I mean I think a really big one for example is zero knowledge proofs right like you're able to build applications that are much more scalable and build applications that do a better job of preserving users privacy and the ease of doing that has gone gone up massively right 5 years ago to build a zero knowledge proof application you had to be a cryptographer yourself now you basically just have to speak circom and I you know I'm sure in two years we'll dump circom and you'll be able to just like write things I you know kind of much more Normy VM language right we're already seeing that I mean people are just modifying ZK VMS and uh just doing DSL to just compile in two different circuits indeed I mean I one note of caution here I think is like I do think that as an ecosystem we should value like minimizing lines of code and I do think that you know a lot of traditional languages don't do a great job of valuing that right like things should be inspectable at at you know whatever the equivalent of binary level is right and I know like that's just a security thing right like I think you know the system should be intelligible even at its lower levels and you know that's not something that we do a perfect job of you know definitely far from that but that's uh definitely something you know we should try to improve on and it's definitely not something that we should be trying to move even further away from right um but uh yeah I mean the I think I know the languages that we use are definitely going to move toward I know being more familiar um and uh being uh um higher level or exactly yeah and being higher level at the same at the same time yeah um so that's one big thing um I think another big thing to think about is like if you're building a major kind of type of application or even a major piece of infrastructure it's important to like really think about it like make sure that the thing that you're building today is being built in kind of an ethereum 2.0 frame instead of an ethereum 1.0 frame and so I guess what's the the actual thing to remember what's the take away of the frame yeah um so I mean I know you know the terms that the 1.0 and 2.0 have been used to mean like 20 different things over the years but like what I mean here is right like so for example um like let's just like bucket things right um so ethereum 1.

0 frame everything on layer one ethereum 2.0 frame layer 2 first um ethereum 1.0 frame everything in the career dumped on chain ethereum 2.0 frame um you know Z ZK and inside a ZK wallet hashes on chain and uh like information stored privately and you know you prove it on an as um as needed basis um 1.0 frame the only anti-il mechanism is like you know basically how much e you have 2.

0 frame you have that but you also have gitcoin passports um you know you have World coin IDs um you have uh other like proof of personhood systems you have proof of humanity um you have you know popes proof of attendance you have Zoo stamps like you know you have this like this kind of entire zoo of you know ways of kind of like telling you know who is a person and who is not or who is a Community member and who is not and like these are things that we should be taking advantage of right um wallets um you know 1.0 frame EA 2.0 frame smart cont smart contract account and know with guardians for Recovery right so know you can kind of go down the stack right and building something today with a 1.0 frame in mind just make zero sense right like if you're making something that exists today that has a one that is built with a 1.0 frame you know you should be quietly building the 2.

0 version and like figuring out the upgrade path to it out of curiosity do you run into scenarios where you're seeing this as consistent of behavior for you to uh kind of promote the 2.0 thinking cuz one thing that we've seen definitely from E Global is the fact that the crowd just gets diluted every year because there's so many more people coming in the next year so but the default to the new Behavior years that everybody's building with and you just don't actually see the same patterns as even the year before so I'm curious I think that's good I mean I think the thing to keep in mind is actually yeah protocols that have been around for a long time right so like Pope for example I you know would be a good example right like I think Pope should um you know and and hopefully does have a uh a a very active and high priority road map for you know switching to ZK verification and switching to everything being on l2s um getcoin passport um you know same thing I see so this is more of a call for existing protocols to also help transition themselves to this versus just a advice for people starting now exactly yeah and like it's you know it is both right and uh like if you're and then if you're building something then you know your chances are you're going to be integrating with existing things and then you know make sure that the things that you're integrating with themselves are you know the the the 2.0 things that are in the process of being built now um a very very helpful U general advice um one one other thing uh I do want to kind of switch topics but one last thing here is um let's talk about data availability so obviously blobs are here they've simplified a lot of things we now have kind of Da systems out there um and you kind of have Technologies like ail and Celestia and and Ian layer but at the same time ethereum also has expressed interest in being the D at the end um how should we think about that and are there any kind of conflicts we see or are there any issues with now multiple sort of perspectives on this yeah I mean I see it as a scale in security tradeoff right like if you want to have top security then you know your D layer has to be the same as your settlement layer right because if your daer separate from your settlement layer then you know there is the risk that the D layer gets 51% attacked and then you're screwed right whereas uh you know if your da layer is the same as your settlement layer then actually even if it gets 51% attacked I mean your your your application is safe which is something that I think a lot of people don't appreciate enough right um so that's um like I view it kind of on an application by application basis um so know if you're building something Financial then you know absolutely should be on know proper rollups um if uh you're building you know like ens I mean like also should be on proper wollups but if you're building like games for example right then like games should do not need to be on rollup so like if a game is on some you know a custom deer then like that's probably totally fine for that game um another example of this is uh if you look at the Enterprise you know blockchain space right like who he remembers uh back in like 2014 to 2018 where you know he had like the corporate Big Shots talking about how permission blockchains are the future who here remembers this good um all of them so the the way that I kind like like look at that uh from you know looking back at that space is basically that like the idea that for for some applications a compromise between centralization and decentralization is just the correct is the correct thing for practicality is a completely correct idea but I think permissioned blockchains are were just a totally bungled and failed attempt that actually actually executing on that idea why right because basically because like it just ended up that permissioned blockchains are too centralized to appeal to the decentralization community and you know they're they're too decentralized to have the the same efficiencies that are expected by the centralized people and so they ended up you know not really satisfying either Camp right I guess in this definition do you kind of consider a rollup without open fraud proofs permission blockchain that's a good question I mean I guess it is right yeah yeah so you know got who here runs a rollup without open fraud proofs no admissions okay um but if you do then you know you got to be migrating to you know having an actual fraud proof who here is migrating to having an actual fraud proof okay no hands um okay but you should be um yeah who here has a family you should be migrating your family to open fraud proofs yeah um so basically um I think like that that like what what ended up happening with a lot of these projects right is that I me know they were able to get like a few users but then once the time came for them to get like a larger set of people like the the next wave of potential users basically looked at the thing and they're like hey you know this is a GP Morgan chain what's the point right um and uh like I think with ZK proofs and where um you know Lear 2 technology and validium and all of this stuff we actually have an opportunity to make the thing that permission blockchains should have been which which is validium that commit into the public ethereum blockchain right what is a validium for a validium is basically a system that has private State and know like everything happens kind of on its own system could even be on a server but which publishes meral roots to ethereum and which publishes your ZK snarks to ethereum that prove that the moral proofs were up dated correctly right so so so any sort of ZK proof is by definition a validum uh well if it's a ZK proof whose goal it is to like basically prove that a spreadsheet is being updated in ways that follows the rules um so the reason why I think this kind of technology is nice is like it basically it's kind of like a convergence from um you know thinking about it from you know the centralized perspective and from the decentralized perspective right because the de perspective is basically we have rollups rollups are too expensive for some things even with blobs and rollups are Overkill so let's take the data off chain and you have a validum the centralized perspective is we have a server and we want to just add some extra security assurances onto that server to you know con convince our users that we're being honest and even you know to give our users the ability to like have proof so they can then go and potentially I you know extend off to third parties and maybe even use them as collateral for things right um but and then how do you do that well you already have a database well let's just like add this kind of extra side side card to your existing database code which just publishes updates your database to chain like or which makes mer roots of your database publishes those mer roots to chain and then also generates a proof that the morle rout was computed and updated correctly and publishes those proofs to chain as well right unlike a permission blockchain this is just a side car it's like just an add-on to an existing centralized that does not require changes to your existing workflow right and so something that's like pretty simple to add um um actually from the crypto spaces point of view um if you think about centralized exchanges one pro probably the first major example of this kind of like Enterprise volum that I think is going to take off is exchange proof of solvency right we've already seen attempts from some we've seen lots of attempts proof of soleny has been a theme for a long time right but like zero knowledge proofs I think are by far the best technology to like really do this and you know it's really valuable right if exchanges can like actually prove to to the public that like for every coin of deposits that they have they actually have a corresponding coin and they're not being fractional reserves right you know proof of not being Mount proof of not being FTX so the uh like if you think about the kind of Technology that's involved in doing this it's like basically actually the same as being a idium right and so could basically think of this like as both from the perspective of like you know we try to be decentralized but we need to cut costs and think of it from the perspective of well you know we start off being centralized but we want to try to get some of the benefits like actually being um some secure and Trust free and providing better guarantees to our users and those two kind of converge at this point in the middle that like actually make some sense I think in a way that permission blockchains never made sense and so this is um you know the kind of you know the pitch for Enterprise right this is is also not even just Enterprise right it's like a a pretty major um you know category of applications that includes games it includes lots of other things um but I think you know the end of the like the conclusion of all this right is that like there is a large set of things for which ethereum data availability is overkill and like for some of those a server is enough for some of those I mean like something celesti other services can take over you know for some of um you know the the committee of you know you and your high school friend is also enough so you know just like you know choose the points on that committee that makes sense and for the stuff that really needs the security I you know we got the blobs that helps me understand data availability for for long-term ethereum um I do want to change topics a little bit uh and get into some uh some final questions you recently turned 30 and you made a wonderful blog post about the last 10 years of being in the space and uh some of the things that you personally cared about mm uh what were kind of would you mind highlighting some of the learnings from uh being in this world for the last 10 years the crypto world that is yeah I mean the crypto world I think like it's just worth I me know thinking back and remembering like the space has changed a huge amount over the last 10 years right um an understatement who here remembers um you know the the Bitcoin uh block siiz war and Bitcoin cash who here remembers Craig Satoshi right actually a judge I think ruled like today or yesterday that he's not Satoshi um so you know I think you know we're allowed okay um yeah um who here remembers Silk Road who here [Music] remembers the the the the Dow yes um the the Olympic test net um the uh um ethereum Devcon one in London which happen in a venue barely bigger than this one who here was at defon one in London oh I'd be curious on that one I see a couple of people yes yeah I see them I see two hands yeah yeah see like there's just you know we've just like seen so many different and you know f fasinating phenomena kind of come and go I me you know the space has just become its own culture and you know it's come to have its own history and I think first of all it's just uh you know really importantance to remember that it's you know really importantance to appreciate that um it's uh I think you know also just good to know look back at some of the the previous eras and you know remember kind of both their doubt sides and uh you know also remember their benefits um so like I think like for example you know it definitely became fashionable to hate on icos a while back but I think it's uh like it's also important to remember some of the big benefits of icos um like one of the really beautiful things about icos to me is how they allowed projects to like have this community that's like really truly Global right like you actually had people from the US people from Europe people from Thailand people from China people from all kinds of places just like all you know like Buy in and like actually be become part of the community of the same project right and often you know buying the tokens is their entry point but then you know like really believing in the ideals and uh actually you know like being part of this Collective Global thing is uh you know like really like like it is a transition that's really happened to a lot of people right and like that is something that does still happen right I uh I remember when I was in Singapore last year I went to one of these I know crazy D gen parties in token 2049 and I remember just like asking around like you know basically why are you here and at least a couple of times I heard the answer like I came here to make money but um you know like basically now I real you know I'm realizing that it's more interesting than that um so like the the problem with uh the current ERA a lot of the time right is like if the main way to pay for things get is basically getting funding from VCS then I mean first of all like you know the things the kinds of things that get funded are are going to be the kinds of things that are agreeable to VCS which are a you know they are more limited group of people that do all talk to each other um then they're not necessarily even more ethical than token B than individual token buyers it's not even that right I think the the one argument I would make on this thing is that most businesses are small businesses they don't have to be billion dollar businesses you can have a small business that offers a value to a small set of people like look at hundreds and thousands of restaurants just in next block radius um and those can now be based off of interest in community and and just people who care about those specific things yeah AB absolutely right but and I think you know like actually having those ways to like really create a project in a way that it kind of like it bootstraps in this fair and even way where you know like anyone gets to participate at the same terms um you know no um you know like volume discounts no key influencer privileges none of that crap just that you know Buy in the price is 2,000 to one I think you know like that's a spirit that's you know really beautiful right and you know you get just like a whole bunch of people from all um around the world coming in and I think there's like lots of different ways to actually accomplish this right but like you actually like you get this kind you know like very kind of genuine Confluence of this like a whole bunch of different people that believe in the thing and that you know come in and particip ipating in the thing um on the same terms as everyone else and it starts you know going from there right and like that kind of spirit is definitely a spirit that I think is uh it is unique to the crypto space um it definitely is being exported a little bit right um so I don't know if people saw but recently Reddit has been you know doing like you know preparing to do their IPO and they're announcing that like people who have been active in the uh Reddit Community as you know moderators and like frequent contributors they're able to participate and and like invest on the same terms as you like the top institutional investors and like I'm not fully happy because it's us residents only and you know like w I feel discriminated against but uh at the same time you know that's not their fault that's you know the fault of Regulation and uh but you know it's still a big prog opportunity exists and they want this thing to happen as well exactly and it's like a big you know it's a big progress right I mean even that by itself I think is like a good example of you know crypto ideals really shining a bright light and uh you kind of becoming a bigger part of the public Consciousness and uh I think you know there is really uh still a good opportunity for some of those brightest parts of cryp to really shine through and uh and I think I you know now we have more tools than before we have you know more um abilities than before um and uh you know we're entering into this uh kind of second big great uh de of crypto and it's also a very different world right it's you know a world where the thing that's at the top of everyone's mind is not you know the great financial crisis and and the FED it is um you know AI um and you know a whole bunch of totally different political stories and I mean all kinds of things and uh you know it's uh very you know different world it's not a bad thing it's just now exactly it's you know it's not a bad thing it's I me know it's changes and you know changes are happening and know changes May well happen again I mean know like in in 10 years we we may well be cycling back to an end of fed Arc like I have no idea so let um yeah basically just you know continue you know being a great part of a great community and I think we have a great opportunity to know work and build something great together so my my final question to you is uh having uh without ruining that blog post for others you should definitely give it a read uh what do you see yourself um focusing on now as your role in the space H what do you think is my role I think it's still evangelism um high level ideas being able to actually make sure that people make ethical decisions in this space still and actually promoting research okay should I make PRS to gu more they one more time should I make PRS to guess more when was the last one uh that you made that's a good question I'm trying to remember I feel like I did actually like put to be fair like I've never like even when I was like very active in development I was doing Python and not gath I feel like I did a typo fix I think like a year or two ago possibly updating read me doesn't count metallic okay we know you're a contributor to G but um oh no I I made a PR to a PR to gu that counts this was a i think in the cont like in the context of like one of these gas costy IPS yeah okay that's cool um doesn't seem like you're all into that programming days I actually okay think what what else have I done I've I made a uh some Sim some kind like a bunch of prototypes like one prototype of uh roll up uh data compression um one prototype of uh you know definitely Pro prototypes of like various cryptographic algorithms um yeah I mean like I definitely you know feel a you know a duty to kind of um you know keep uh playing uh playing around with the sword once in a while and you know like let the lightsaber not get too rusty and all that like it's h yeah there you know you I think you might enjoy hackathons I might enjoy what hackathons hackathons oh interesting yeah possibly um I don't know are there any hackathons happening anytime soon I think I I know one that uh I can send you the details for okay sounds good depends on what you're doing tomorrow night uh tomorrow night I shall be on a plane to Hanoi but um you're loss you're supposed to say sfy l this is the cool internet lingo I'm not hip enough what does that mean sorry for your loss ah oh I see well sorry for my own loss on this one no no come on like memes are fun right it's like if you have a meme you're like it's like it's rule zx42 if there's a meme there's a coin of it or no sorry 0x 34 right yeah that's a different one no that's like if there's no that's like if there's a thing there's a there's a coin of it yes yeah zx42 can be if there's a thing there's a meme of it and uh then you know if there's a meme there's a coin of it but this is uh this is just me being bad at the internet so uh it's yeah know the the internet is uh it's a fun place and yeah so so I do want to wrap up though so you seem excit excited about a lot of experimentations and and prototyping things is uh is that what we can expect for the next few years or or is there more um yeah well I think I you know there's let's see over the next few years what even is well there's so you know Verge Purge still a whole bunch of good ongoing L1 stuff um really fleshing out the ecosystem obviously um so you know one of the other posts that I published a few months ago is you know making ethereum Cipher Punk again and one of the themes I have there is this idea of like building this uh like basically thinking of what we're doing as being uh the task of creating a fully independent decentralized Tex Tech that competes with you know the traditional centralized Tex Tech at every level right so you know they have Gmail um you know we have we had skiff and you know we shall have more um you know they have Twitter we have foraster they have DNS we have ens they have you know centralized web to recovery which often doesn't even work we have uh social recovery um you know they have telegram we have uh you know like status and warcast DMS and a bunch of other things um so you know they have you know like credit scoring we have you know like zo pass attestations scores exactly yeah so like basically I mean like really thinking about it as like building out this like very coherent decentralized alternative stack to like all of these core centralized um like internet finance and Trust layers and like really thinking about that holistically and if you're building a thing in one layer then like actually plug into some of the other stuff on um on those other layers right and you know if you are a crypto projects then you know be on a foraster um you know if you're building an if an app that requires signing into things support sign in with ethereum and support sign in with zass and support you know the uh the road map of eventually merging even those two things together into a more integrated ho um yeah basically you know remember you know we're building this a whole um ecosystem together and I think it's a you know it's definitely growing bigger than just a blockchain and I think that's a good thing you know blockchain is a it's a great tool for what it's great for I but I know zero knowledge proofs matter a lot too um two-party computation matters more and more fully homomorphic encryption is going to start mattering more and more you know proof of personhood protocols built on top of all of the above are going to start mattering um more and more so I know like really start thinking of this as this know big um holistic system and I mean like asking like what are what part are you playing in it looks like you're going to just overall help make etherum cyberfunk again or crypto so toic thank you so much for that amazing chat thank you too and I really appreciate this [Applause] yeah