Redefining Portfolios in 2025 A Family Office Perspective | EBC11

So yeah, we lost um couple of our panelists I think to uh flight delays or flight cancellations. So um there's going to be more airtime for you guys I guess. Um I think originally we wanted to tackle um family offices investment in the space um but because the two family offices that were um going to uh pretty much um tack tackle the issue obviously have cancellations in their flights. So we can I mean we we can we can broaden the subject really as as we like. So I know you guys I mean you Patrick uh you you'll you'll introduce yourself but you don't only look at the space from a family office perspective and yourself Bob is um you are sorry I um um kind of a hedge fund specialist, right?

Uh so we'll start by doing introductions first um and then um and then uh we'll tackle the subject, yeah. All right. Patrick Martin. Um I run a family office based in London. By background I'm a serial entrepreneur.

Used to run media entertainment companies. Uh had a few successful exits, IPOs. And since been investing in tech from a family office since 25 years, crypto since about 10 years. And um yeah, it's it's it's it's a wild ride. So from a to quickly answer the question uh more crypto in the portfolio is better than less, I think.

Yeah, obviously. That's That's why we're all here. Bob. Perfect. Thanks everybody for for coming.

Um so I run 319 Capital. We are a fund of hedge funds. So we allocate capital to mostly quant systematic funds in digital assets. So 100% of our portfolio is in digital assets. We cover mostly three key strategies.

So the high frequency trading space, the market neutral space and DeFi. And uh I mean I would also say obviously the more the more crypto the better but uh um happy to answer sort of or or opine on what we see from the other side. So when we going through the due diligence, what are the key questions that family office ask us? What is it we need to provide to them when it comes to the portfolio uh and uh and similar. Um On my personal side so I've been in digital assets in in crypto since 2017.

Uh participated in the the ICO era. So sending money to strangers over the internet. Uh no problem there. And then started to allocate to funds in 2021. And Capital.

Cool. I was a PM for a decade for a company called Altana Wealth. I used to try to find company that's got a third of its AUM in crypto. Uh I was managing a couple of portfolios there discretionary and uh and also quant strategy and uh I've left Altana Wealth and now I've set up Juno Capital and I'm partnering the big player in the space uh to uh launch my strategy there. It's a systematic quant trend following strategy.

So um I think we were supposed to to to tackle the family office kind of perspective in in in the space and I was I was actually looking at um a Goldman Sachs um recent review of the family office uh investment in in cryptos and apparently the the the the the interest of the the the the percentage of family office uh family offices investing ha- ha- hasn't really changed from 2023. So 2023 uh it was about 26% or a quarter of family offices had some kind of investments in cryptos. In 2025, so this year that that jumped a little bit to uh to 33%. So from 26 to 33%. So a mere um uh like few percentage points rise.

And and and in the meantime we've obviously seen the the Bitcoin ETFs uh being approved in the US. So all the institutional adoption we've seen the the massive trillion dollar money managers such as BlackRock and now Vanguard by the way offering offering ETFs to to their to their customers. So why do we think that um the family office interest hasn't risen within those two years? Do Do Do we I mean are they more crypto native like they they they they haven't been involved in in ETFs because they they prefer storing their Bitcoins in cold wallets or or or is there still skepticism in this in this space from you know from from from their perspective? What do you guys think?

We'll start with you Patrick. Sure. So that's an interesting number. Okay, so a third of family offices now 33% are have crypto exposure. I think that number is probably under reported.

I would think from my I mean of course I meet people more in the context that are that are already there but I would say I would think it's probably more half. But cuz there's no reporting requirement for a family office. They do what they want and then they they buy Bitcoin when they want to. I think in terms of Bitcoin it's probably more more towards 50% and other stuff we don't know. Of course allocating to funds and allocating to more structured strategies that might be that might be the case but you know I think the one the the let's say the 50 or 60% that doesn't have crypto they're missing something because in in a in a classical portfolio uh for a liquid portfolio allocation in crypto or in in Bitcoin especially is now proven to be very beneficial.

It lowers the Sharpe ratio. It increases the uh the upside of the portfolio. So it's uh you know if you look at it from that way you should do it. Of course if you're if you're real estate family and the only thing you do is real estate development then maybe you don't need to have Bitcoin. But uh I think it's uh I mean I'm you know I would think there's I mean there's still work to do.

I mean if we say family offices have 33% of family offices, that's that's a lot more than of retail investors, right? Because if you count retail investors in the world, maybe there's 5 billion retail investors and maybe 500 million have wallets. So it's 10%. So it's it's already a outperformance. Yeah.

So family offices are smarter than retail. Um what do you think Bob? Um do do we do you think like Patrick we have a an underreporting of family offices um crypto investments? Uh does that sound like a good number to you 33%? I'm actually surprised it's that high if it's really that high because most of the people that I speak to they are interested but they have close to zero exposure.

And maybe I'm spending time on the on the wrong side of the spectrum really kind of evangelizing and and being out there. But most of the people that I speak to on the family office side and high net worth individual side they probably are very allocated to real estate. They are allocated to private equity. They own operating businesses. But very often is the very traditional side of uh of the of the assets.

And so I really need to you know Bitcoin 101. How does blockchain work? How does Bitcoin work? And so if it's 33% that seems quite high. Uh I would say it's definitely lower.

I would I think it's lower. And um I think you know the reasons for that is one is um from which pocket will the family office finance that investment uh to digital assets be it Bitcoin etc. Um is it from a liquid pocket that already exists? Is it from cash flows from operating cash flows that they will get? They need to basically find a space for it.

Find a pocket. And I guess second is um the reason why that number again seems to be quite high. Inside the family offices you don't have specialist for digital assets or you don't have lines of specialist for liquid. You have someone who has basically needs to cover the entire spectrum from liquid to illiquid. And again, the education point comes in.

They have only so much little time to spend on something that yes it's growing but still it's a it's a small piece of the total pie. Sure. Yeah, I mean I guess I guess that when they asked these family offices, maybe some of them have allocated like 1%. I mean they just opened and just bought a few Bitcoins. And that's that's that's accounted for an investment basically or Uh okay, let's move on.

Um let's talk about a bit the portfolio construction and how you guys integrate uh digital assets within within your portfolios. Do you do you more do you um do you have specific strategies that you avoid or you prefer to do are you more into liquid venture? Um how do you diversify or how do you get allocation? Are you more into you know the mining Bitcoin mining space? I mean I spoken to Kira.

She's not here but she said from from her family family office's perspective they're mainly in just Bitcoin long spot Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining. So it's very much kind of early stage um exposure um from that perspective. How do you guys integrate um your exposure? You want to start cuz I think from your having a more traditional perspective. Yeah, so so I will take it from the other side meaning the people that I talk to into what pocket we we fit in and and when we have the discussions where where we fit in and what I see.

So very often the the family office that I speak to when they have exposure they have it through a venture fund. So basically they have a venture capital allocation and that venture fund be it a generalist or a specialist uh has some has done some investments in the space, most of the time equity. Some family offices they have allocated to specialist digital assets venture venture crypto funds basically. I would say is the is the smaller part. Some of them they went sort of one step further recognized that actually generalized VC firms are not necessarily good VC for for crypto for digital assets and so they went to fund of funds.

So that's one allocation that I see in place. Second is on the on the liquid side through an ETF. So that's really the history of the last two years where people for family offices is literally as simple as buying a ticker or an ISIN type of product is through an ETF or ETP type of product both in Europe and and the US. Um those are the two simplest one. Now where we sit we are liquid fund of funds so we offer basically two months liquidity so we would fit into a liquid pocket that that's how they think about it.

Where they can potentially call the call the capital back and that sort of situates us somewhere across uh liquid basically equities exposure and and credit there's liquid credit. Okay, so liquidity is key, right? I mean that the panel before us touched touched upon diversification and the needs to diversify because when when when when problems emerge obviously assets get correlated to one and then obviously everything goes down so flight flight to safety from that perspective is is important. Um Patrick, how how do you get exposure in the space? Well, let me start with saying what I what I hear other people are doing because I'm I'm probably an outlier because my allocation to crypto is about 60% so it's maybe not from a risk-adjusted basis is not the not the ideal allocation but I I'm a strong believer so I'm trying to to triple my money overall right and so I can't do it with a small exposure but most family office I talk to first they buy Bitcoin so they usually have some allocation either directly to Bitcoin or to maybe the Bitcoin ETF.

Then I mean Coinbase is a is an easy one right because if you buy Coinbase you're you're definitely have exposure to the crypto space and that's a that's a pretty safe one. The one a big family office from Argentina I just spoke to multi-billion family office from Latin America they um so they have some some stock they have some Bitcoin and then they they just bought some Kraken pre-IPO. So I think the that now that the crypto companies are going public I think it's the exposure will increase very quickly because these are the the the high wall fast moving assets and then it's becomes very easy to buy just with your normal share portfolio. I think the the reason people don't have exposure more is because it's it's more difficult right you can you need if you if you're a structured family office you need to if you want to have a self custody you need the wallet infrastructure that people don't don't have then don't maybe don't want to have or you need to set up a crypto account with Binance so that's a regulatory problem if you're if you're a regulated family office. So um I think it's it's all happening now because now Morgan Stanley just came out last week saying okay they recommend for an for for sort of like a medium medium portfolio with medium risk 2% crypto.

And then for more aggressive portfolio 4% and this is for multi-trillion dollar allocation so if this is a Morgan Stanley recommendation there's a lot of money coming right and this is everybody will eventually have to have it. So the laggards will they they will be they will be left behind but I think in terms of a portfolio allocation you now need to you need to have somewhere between two and five percent makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I I probably add that from from from my perspective my my experience at Altana Wealth which was a traditional asset manager. Um so they they they approached the space I actually they were quite early. So first of all they they started a Bitcoin investment vehicle back in 2014.

Bitcoin was about $400 the first six months the the that small investment vehicle which was a friends and family money Bitcoin dropped to 260 everybody laughed and said haha we told you it was a scam. Then obviously these early stage investors then did the 100x but within that 100x journey so you know they've seen they've seen two three bear markets right like they you quadruple your money and then comes a bear market you do minus 60% drawdowns then again 3x and then minus 80% drawdowns. So those early stage investors approached us and they said all right you guys are traditional asset managers why don't you profit a little bit from the volatility it's a very cyclical asset class. Try to capture both both both you know large large breakouts on the upside and the and and on the downside when there are bear markets. So that's that's when we introduced long short.

So some of these investors allocated to to this to the strategy and also in the meantime we obviously did did market did look into the market neutral side of of the trade which I presume a lot of asset managers did in 2023 and 2024 as well the carry trade so you go you go short the futures long the spot and and you um and you pocket pocket the the funding rate. So so that that that evolution of exposure I think came naturally as as as I think the the the entire asset class matured. Um now from a family office perspective when I spoke to Kira I remember when we prepped for the call and Bijan as well they didn't seem to have a lot of exposure into these more more more active kind of strategy in the space like like ourselves maybe are are more looking into it. So family offices are still kind of more you know earlier and I'd say probably from that perspective they probably did better to to be completely honest I mean buy buy and hold strategy in Bitcoin has been the the best strategy of the last five years and and and and and family offices were mainly invested in Bitcoin and and probably trying to get some yield on top of these bit Bitcoin hold holdings also some Bitcoin mining was was also um there there there in their portfolio. So will will will will will the will it stay the same will we obviously see Bitcoin being still the king in the future I mean obviously this remains to be seen but I think they I mean they are still I mean they are now cognizant of the fact that I mean things can change and I mean Bitcoin is now king but potentially other you know you have to look into other strategies at least from a diversification point of view because even Bitcoin can have you know large drawdowns right?

Um okay. Moving on I think I think one one subject we wanted to talk about is what differentiate you know a family office perspective or or you know view of investing in in the space from normal or traditional asset manager or a hedge fund right like obviously there's probably a higher longer time horizon because of the the fact that you know they're family family offices so they have a you know longer longer outlook in the space and probably hedge funds are you know they have LPs to respond to so monthly performance is etc. How how do you view how do you view that you know difference of you know difference in in in terms of what they can invest in and what they cannot. Well firstly there is not the family office because a family office is a contrived term it basically just means there's a pool of capital that usually comes from a family that had a business that was generating cash flow that they either sold or still generates cash flow but there's no rule of what they can do. So a family office technically can do anything they want and they can basically say if the if the principal of the family office is 80 years old they're probably going to be focused on capital preservation and if the principal is 35 years old or 40 years old they were probably going to be trying to grow the wealth and then anything in between is possible so they can they can really do what they like.

I mean multi-family office is slightly different because that's more a more regulated structure but a single family office they can really do what they like and um it it depends on the appetite of the of the family members is the is it is it is it needs to generate cash flow to give lifestyle choices to the family members or does it need to just grow the pie because they have cash flow from other side so it's very you can't really define it as what does a family office do but I mean I from my personal point of view is uh I'm trying to grow to grow the pie and I'm willing to take risk. I have a lot of venture investing in my in my portfolio so liquid the liquid side is is a smaller side I mean and I don't consider it liquid I mean for me Bitcoin is a is a base asset is like the S&P 500 so I I trade when I exit venture investments I trade back into Bitcoin so I accumulate Bitcoin over time but that is a very specific to me because I'm I'm happy with the with the risk so I'm I'm happy if I have a 20% drawdown in Bitcoin because I can buy more Bitcoin cheaper, right? So, you have a longer time horizon, Patrick. Okay. Um yourself, Bob?

The more Bitcoin the better. Um so, I would say

is better than less Bitcoin, and then don't rebalance. I would say there's a big difference in sophistication and in terms of the call it the the quantitative support that uh hedge funds or traditional asset managers require when it comes to allocation. What I mean with that is family office is not that they would not be sophisticated, but again, the CIOs, they have so many other options that they need to consider, and uh I would say the the the decision to invest, uh I would say is is based obviously on on quantitative measures, the fund, etc., but it's much more about the people and what is it that you're trying to achieve. When I look at the people I speak with who are much more professional allocators, we're talking much more statistics.

We're talking about drawdowns. We're talking about sharp ratios. We're talking about volatility. That does matter to family offices, but to a lesser extent. It's more about capital preservation.

So, there, the one key metric is the drawdown. How much drawdowns are you targeting? What is it the risk that you're taking? I would say it's financial managers is much more Yeah, much more quantitative statistics that you that you need to present. Interesting.

I think Yeah, I mean, from my perspective, because I'm probably biased because I run a long short systematic uh strategy, but what I tend to explain to you know, my potential investors is um exactly what you said. I mean, drawdowns are the most I think important metric in my opinion when you when in when you uh when you want to venture into the active space, right? Um because if you look only at sharp ratio or try to or just volatility, obviously some these these strategies actually by definition try to make money from volatility, right? Especially trend following. So, when volatility is high, that's when you will see breakout on the upside or the or the downside.

And that's when you're active in the market, right? Trying to to buy, right? If if there's an upside breakout or sell, vice versa, right? So, so by by by construction, you will make money in high volatility regime. So, if then people will judge you on a high sharp Sorry, a a high volatility pure metric, that's obviously not not, you know, not going to make it for you.

So, I advise people to look more into drawdowns, because there is a way to actually achieve a low sharp ratio, but with a with also with with a high comma ratio, comma ratio being your excess return with regards to your to your drawdowns, and I think that's a more important metric. Uh another one I think in my opinion in is is how you fared during market market stress. So, last last Friday was obviously a very good example. Uh but also, you know, what happened during the FTX collapse, so when when um um you know, when correlations really go to one, right? How did your port- portfolio fare?

Um what was your max drawdown in these instances, um etc. So, from from an active management perspective, I think lots of metrics are there uh for you to look at, but I think uh max drawdown is is uh is one of the most important ones. Um I think before we go into the um kind of looking ahead and what what we're interested or what we're excited about, I I'd love to get your view about what You know what? What valuation metrics do you guys use, right? When, you know, not just to not just to allocate to a certain manager, but like if you look at a project, especially yourself, Patrick, because you you tend to invest VCs, so you meet founders, etc.

So, how do you, apart from just, you know, obviously liking the team or not, but how do you evaluate a project um before investing in it? When there are no metrics, obviously.

in the in the venture side? Yeah. In the VC side, yeah. Well, if it's early stage, the only thing you can do is look at the team, see how how much experience does the team have? Is the team technically capable to do what they what they say they can do?

And then ideally get a a reasonable entry valuation, but it almost doesn't matter because if I'm investing in venture, my my expectation is either zero, so it's a total loss, or it's 10 to 50x. So, if I made 10 investments and one of them goes 50x, then uh then I made 40x even though I lost uh nine times the other things, but this is a very specific way for me to look at it. So, at the end of the day, do I invest at a 8 million valuation, a 5 million, or a 12 million valuation? It doesn't really make a difference. It just makes a difference if the team the if they already have some kind of a product that is that makes sense.

Even though I'm now I'm looking more on the like a later stage stuff, pre-IPO, and then of course you have metrics, you have revenue, and so we're looking at revenue multiples and and and profit multiples if they're profitable. So, there is actually now profitable crypto companies, which is wasn't the case five, six years ago. And uh so, of course then you can apply normal metrics. And then of course now you have listed listed crypto companies. You have Circle, Bullish, uh Gemini just went public, Coinbase, Robinhood is a crypto company, you know, so you have now metrics on the public market, and then you can apply those to private market, and then you then you can find evaluation.

This is for more mature companies, but that that makes sense. And of course there should be a premium to public market valuations because of more liquidity, but uh yeah, that that's the kind of stuff I look at. Okay. Bob, how do you see that? So, before before, you know, launching or allocating to to digital asset hedge funds, I spent close to 10 years at in private equity.

So, very sort of familiar with the traditional metrics and finding it really hard to apply them to uh or justify this some of the crypto valuations. Why would Solana be at uh I don't know, 200 billion market cap? Why would Ethereum be at such a high market cap? And so, maybe that's why I sort of shifted to to more liquid strategies where where that does not matter uh as much. But if I sort of tweak the question slightly, how do we select managers?

What are the key criteria that we look at uh when we evaluate uh the hedge funds that we invest in? So, there's kind of four key buckets that uh that I spend time on. So, the first one is, what is it the strategy they're running, right? So, if they are are basically selecting altcoins, then obviously it's something totally different. We don't do that at all.

So, it needs to be sort of purely quant systematic, based on large models, um algorithmic execution. There can be obviously some manual trades, of course, but that's that's the key. Second is these strategies, how do they correlate to what we already have in the portfolio? Do they have better results? Do they have worse results?

How much do they correlate? Do we want to replace our existing portfolio and put someone someone new? The third one uh is the managers. So, the team behind these strategies, what are their obviously technical capabilities? What is the background?

How strong is the team? Literally, how many people did they have and where they, you know, were they there in 2020 uh 2022, sorry, when when FTX happened? And again, it's fine if they had money on FTX, but did they have 90% or did they have 10% there? Um and then four, uh which is uh which is um kind of again specific to to digital asset crypto managers, where do they trade? What is the infrastructure that they are running, and uh what exposures can you see from from there?

Again, I believe it's fine to trade on on on Binance as much as a lot of people uh don't like uh you know, other exchanges, but again, how much money do they have uh on on exchanges and uh etc. Interesting. Uh for my experience as when I was running an altcoins liquid mostly uh strategy at Altana Wealth, we had literally like uh a 12 tick box kind of criteria um set. So, you know, team, obviously one of the most important ones, uh the tech, uh market adoption, the utility, where you are in the market cycle, the narrative was super important. Um but I have to say, like I think I joined Patrick here mostly the team was the most important kind of uh criteria for us.

I mean, have they delivered before? Have they Some of the teams, obviously, uh they they change or they, you know, if if they don't if if they can't deliver after a year, they they literally um change completely um projects or change um blockchain, etc., for for the most hyped one. Uh we tend to avoid these guys. Um we want obviously persistent teams, um ideally teams that have delivered before, and and obviously passionate and and and uh also good at marketing.

That's That's super important for investment, I think. Okay. Um So, sorry, maybe to quickly quickly jump in on that. Um so, the team, that's where it starts, but that's where it ends, right? So, that's the reason why we invest in people that have probably 3 years to 8 years track record.

They took the time and effort and money to actually set up a fund rather than just, you know, run an SMA product that you can move on if it doesn't doesn't sort of work out. And they probably have been on that journey for for much longer, so they have seen the volatility. So, um Again, it's not bulletproof, you know, but it gives uh it lowers the risk. Perfect. Um and just before we end this panel, obviously we'd like to maybe a lot of people here are interested to see to have your views about where you perceive the best opportunities in the next three to five years, right?

Which which bucket of investment investment styles, market neutral, long short systematic, or should we just hold Bitcoin and sit on it? Again, obviously history has showed us that that's probably not too bad. Um, what do you think, Patrick? So, personally definitely have Bitcoin and sit on it. Don't do anything with it.

Uh, lock it away and if if if there's a market drawdown, buy more. When it when the market goes up, don't sell. So, that's the most important thing. So, if you don't do anything else

Dollar cost average on Bitcoin. Right. Dollar cost average in, but then don't rebalance on the way up because otherwise, if you if you say I want to have 2% Bitcoin allocation, Bitcoin doubles, and then you sell half your Bitcoin, then you're making a mistake. You're making a mistake.

And then secondly, don't use leverage, very important. Thirdly, I think at the moment what is exciting for me is what I would call liquid venture. So, there's a lot of token projects that are in the market that have liquid tokens that are wildly under under valued because there is many projects that have that have gone out like maybe in three, four years ago. They were they were up a lot and then they came down in the in the bear market and they're now kind of half forgotten, but they have very good tech, they have good teams, they're engaged teams and you don't need to wait. So, so as I say, like invest a lot in venture, but now at the moment I'm investing less in early stage venture.

So, I'd rather I'm I'm allocating more in what I call liquid venture. So, basically finding these good teams that I have good projects that have a lot of potential that have revenue and so basically say double down on those and try and help them elevate their story because story is very important in crypto, right? Because So, that's that's one thing I'm looking at. And then from a liquid point of view, I look at late stage late stage pre-IPO stuff. So, from a systematic point of view, I don't invest in anything that's not market neutral crypto because for me that doesn't make no sense.

But when market neutral, I go into something regulated and boring and have a market neutral strategy there because if I'm taking crypto counterparty risk, I want crypto upside. If I want market neutral, I want no counterparty risk and that doesn't exist in crypto. So, that's why that's not for me, but for other people this might be this might be nice if they have a hedge fund allocation and they like market neutral to start with, they can maybe get a little more yield from crypto market neutral, but as for my portfolio, it has doesn't make sense. Okay. Um, where do you see the space or the most interesting part of the space be in the next three, five years?

So, I I think there's kind of three key areas. So, the first one, I agree with Patrick, just hold Bitcoin, have it in self-custody, don't give it to anyone, have a good allocation. Whatever happens is yours, right? So, you don't have the counterparty risk. Second, have Bitcoin, but do something with it.

So, that's why I quite like basically BTC share classes where you invest Bitcoin, you take you take some risk for sure, but you you can generate 5 to 10% probably not more on Bitcoin. I think the days when you could generate kind of, you know, 20% per year are are gone. So, I think again, good to accumulate more Bitcoin, but yes, you're taking more risk. And then three is what I start seeing more and more is credit funds from traditional finance. So, basically traditional credit funds are being put on chain and hedge funds basically can can can invest in those and can get extra leverage against those and then then these these are the loopings, right?

Where you can basically do that trade two or three times. Happy to go into more detail how it works, but you are you have someone from traditional finance uh, the Apollos, the Ares, etc. who are underwriting these loans. You are relying on their origination, on their due diligence skills. It's definitely not not riskless, but I would say they do way better underwriting job than a lot of people in in digital assets.

And so, there's a way how you can how you can again generate extra yield, but for that go through through a hedge fund, go through a specialist. Don't try to do it at home. Unlike the first one. Awesome. Which which obviously would preserve our jobs as well, right?

Self-serving obviously answer. From my perspective, obviously I mean, Bitcoin has been king, but it's it's it's like in TradFi as well as well. You you don't want to just hold gold, right? Bitcoin is digital gold. You want some exposure to S&P 500 or Nasdaq, right?

You want that Nvidia volatility that, you know, uh, those tech companies. So, from that perspective, you want you probably won't get get that with with Bitcoin. So, you you might want to have some exposure to the composable chains, right? The Ethereum, the the Solanas, the the the Suis if you want if you want some, uh, you know, sexier exposure, but definitely look into the com- uh, But to get as as Patrick was saying, don't have that exposure in uh, uh, you know, in with in the perps market. Have it in the spot market, sorry.

Um, So, uh, definitely do that. No perps, guys. No perps. Or if you do perps, then do it without leverage, i.e.

long short. So, for example, my strategy I trade perps, but zero leverage. I I'm either long or short. Um, but obviously again, if you just want exposure in the space in a spot in a spot manner, again, digital gold, Bitcoin, have some composable chains to diversify to, you know, akin to the S&P Nasdaq as we said. Uh, you you've got Ethereum, Solana, Sui, for example.

And also, I mean, Patrick is not so keen on market neutral or or more active uh, uh, investment strategies, but I think I to in my opinion, to lure traditional um, asset managers into the space, they like to see those stable returns. And for them, obviously, 10% or 15% annual returns is actually a lot higher than any other uh, TradFi instrument can can provide them, right? So, I think it's still interesting to to pursue those, you know, those market neutral strategies. Obviously, what what we have seen this year is, uh, some of these market neutral strategies haven't performed as well as as 2024 be just because funding rates have have gone down, uh, but there are ways still to achieve to achieve those kind of returns in a very uh, risk-adjusted um, manner, right? Uh, before before we close the the panel, I'd like I just I'd like to actually ask you a question.

Do you think that, um, um, you know, that that recommended recommended 1 to 5% Bitcoin exposure from from, you know, uh, Larry Fink and, you know, the big money managers, do you think they will remain as as low as, you know, 1 to to 5% or do you see that recommended diversification, you know, Bitcoin Bitcoin exposure uh, growing more to the 5 to 10%? You know, I'm talking about the big guys, the Vanguards, the the BlackRocks, etc. So, So, I think that anyone who has zero allocation, they are actively taking a view that Bitcoin is worthless. And if they don't have a view, then they should probably basically copy the normal allocation, which means Bitcoin is 2 trillion out of, I don't know, 950 trillion overall assets. So, they should probably have a have a have a similar allocation, which is obviously still very small.

I would adjust that for for a number of factors. I think that that allocation will will grow 5 to 10%. Great. Yeah, I think five, I mean, 3 to 5% is a good starting position and then as I said, if you don't rebalance, it will go to 10% eventually, right? So, that's the main thing.

You don't need to change your allocation, you just need to let let crypto do its thing, right? Okay. So, start with 5%, don't take profits if it doubles, leave it at 10. Thank you so much, guys, and thank you for the audience. Thank you.