Creative Summit | Culture, community & capital - DAOs and new models of (co)production

[Applause] [Music] i'm gonna kick it off with the first panel um very glad that it's hosted by one of my absolutely most favorite people in web3 jose okay jose on on on twitter and uh he's joined by andrea magdalena from shisetso izio campo from refraction dao uh amir aka cirsu from black hand and the man like elijah um i think that's that's about it we are good to go so please friends enjoy awesome thanks for that setup mikhail um excited to have this conversation with everyone here on culture community and capital um i just want to kick it off by thanking everyone who's here today and everyone who's watching um first things to set things up i'd love for everyone to introduce themselves what organization they're here representing then answer the the question that i think uh we're really here to talk about which is do you think dials are overrated or underrated i'm gonna throw it to andrea first hi everyone uh pleasure to be here thank you mikhail for the invitation i'm really in amazing company right here some friends i know some friends i'm about to make so um yeah great to be here overall uh so i am originally from romania and i'm the founder of she said so a global community of women gender minorities and allies in the music industry that's been around since 2014 and um right now we're about 15 000 people 15 000 members distributed across 20 global chapters and we still operate in a web 2 way uh but definitely exploring what our future looks like in the web3 space given the fact that we finally have all the tools that we need to properly operate as a community as a collaborative community so excited to chat more about that andrea dao's overrated or underrated you have to answer it's a double-edged word um underrated i'll stay under it cool i'ma throw it to seriously next how you guys doing um i'm sorry sue uh i'm a designer um anthropologist i think a lot about uh agency and what we can do to create uh unique experiences for communities i think as a designer like our responsibility is to be sort of like a shepherd that has a unique set of tools but also we are kind of a teacher um and enabling other people to take those same tools um and build things for themselves um but dao's um i was trying to find a great segue within that and the two things but i couldn't but i feel like daos are uh hmm i think contextually daos are underrated but i think the way most people look at or interpret a dial i think is incredibly overrated like there's a lot of people that make dallas for the sake of doubts because of the word or the the acronym i suppose and the fact that it's a it's like a term that can be used to capture interest or um you know at least when the bull market was going on like you know a lot of vc money without actually really seeing the the level of depth that uh cooperatives mutual aid funds and a bunch of other like uh preceding like ways of gathering and galvanizing community and organizing for funds or for actions or for the combination the two um they sort of disrespected the fact that they we have this long history of uh of self-organizing um and so like we're saying oh dallas of the future and so i think i think it was overrated in that context because it really um downplayed a lot of the hard work that many of our preceding people have put put together excellent thanks for sharing that izzy well thank you um i'm izzy i'm a musician music educator and i'm on the curatorial team at refraction i'm also the curatorial grants or creative grants lead at refraction um underrated or over i have to agree with all the points you're super brought up i think underrated as a coordination tool overrated in the sense that like a lot of the history around co-op squads and collectives kind of gets like a race the web 2 the web 2 organizing that's happened but overall underrated yeah and last but not least elijah hi i'm elijah i'm from east london um um i guess like my background's in djing writing and my day job is like as an artist manager kind of spend a lot of time in clubs um and yeah i've got to meet people from all around all around the world um i guess styles for me are like underrated it kind of um a lot of communities i come from i'm not engaging with them yet and i'm excited to see what happens when um people bring some of the communities that they have offline online and kind of broadly broadly connect with other people doing similar things globally um i think the internet has now to agree but um giving people a home away from um socials would be like the stronger we can get that about cool so the first question i have here that i want to start off with andrea is um you know uh community in web 3 often gets treated like a commodity right and she said so has global chapters and membership in the tens of thousands so i'm curious how do you define community and why was it important for you specifically to cultivate one that's a great way to start off because i was thinking about it the other day you know um i'm gonna go way back to my university days because i always felt that i went to university and wasted my time there i studied media and communications you know a degree that doesn't really take you too far but i then remember that my final dissertation was actually on the concept of collaborative work and the power of communities at the time ted was just kind of like becoming this big platform where you can you know learn really cool stuff that you wouldn't be able to get in university or you know traditional education and i was like oh wow this is like literally just generated by the people right for the people this is a really interesting concept so that's where i originally got inspired by um to create she said so then i was mostly spending a lot of time in tech i was pursuing a career in tech and somehow i ended up with mixed cloud a music tech startup at the time i was employee number five i was really close to the founders and started diving deeper into the music industry which obviously is a very community you know relationship based kind of environment and a very collaborative one as well there's right a village behind each artist between each behind each release but obviously i noticed that there were some things that were wrong with it in terms of inclusion and representation so i decided to do something about it inspired by a tech community um called ada's list that i was a part of at the time because i noticed that tech was talking about this thing called diversity but the music business was no no you know that's not something we care about as long as it doesn't drive profit sharing so um i was always inspired by tech tools basically and i created this community inside of a google group it still exists inside of a google group and multiple other platforms in terms of our local chapters around the world when i first created there was nothing like it apart from maybe one u.s organization that was a non-profit and it was a bit clunky and old and you know it wasn't really relevant anymore so we came in i was living in london at the time so she said so still has a huge presence in the uk in europe i lived in london for seven years and that's where that's where the community grew grew really fast but then obviously the music industry is a global environment it's a global ecosystem the word spread even further and then i started having all these people reaching out oh hey i really believe in what you're doing i really love the ethos you know men didn't feel um aggravated by it they felt included in this you know cis man they felt included in this movement they felt like okay we're trying to you know fix things together and that was something that was very important for me to communicate from the get-go that we're here to create alliances and partnerships and you know collaborations um between all genders really but first we need us women to get together as a group and like sense check each other make sure we're not crazy this is actually something that all women are experiencing help each other out create a bigger voice and then you know show the world that hey we need to be listened to you know just hear us out um and as the community grew beyond the word of mouth level over the next you know three years or so we didn't have a website we didn't have a brand identity social media it was literally just that google group um obviously as we scaled and all these local chapters popped up with their own sort of platforms it became more and more difficult to maintain this sort of consistent ethos and and the way in which we manifested that ethos um i i think it's still there if you know people uh hear about she said so through conversations i think that sort of those values are still carried there but in terms of operations how we manifest how we operate together to collaborate on you know curating playlists and curating events and all of that it's a mess i tell you it's it's hugely difficult um and that's why you know i'm i'm at this place where i'm exploring web3 solutions because there's nothing in web 2 that is able to help us out you know and so for me to go back to your original question we are community means um people coming together with shared interests and shared commitment because at the beginning there was a lot of shared interests and you know people asking asking asking for things um and it was important for us to introduce this community rule that you first have to give something before you ask for something you know and that you can you maintain your commitment to the community as much as you take from it how you track that and how you manage that and ensure that it's the case and you reward participation you know the way we've done that so far has been very analog um and very imperfect so i'm excited to explore these new these new tools available to us seriously you um you touched on this and i think elijah did as well so for folks like andrea and the communities that elijah mentioned that are sort of like not yet tapped in or just curious or just getting started you've been around the block a bit i'm curious if you could speak to the ways in which you've seen um organic or more naturally formed communities kind of falter as they step into web3 and the ways in which that kind of web 3 systems can sometimes trip you up or cause things to kind of go awry because there's uh edges that are difficult to understand if you're not kind of hip to what's going on oh man that's a great question um yeah i've seen i've so i think the one thing that a lot of folks uh one of the first things that trips people up is that and this is just not just like web 3 and dallas but this is just i think like the nature of crypto in general is that it's not a passive place like this requires a lot of real like active participation lot of the time it shouldn't it should still be healthy though it's not like you need to spend every waking hour doing this but because things start with you and like the the aspect of the permissionless like models that we're all kind of dealing with everything's opt-in right like or more so i guess the better way to say is it's like everything asks you if it's okay to do something like so without your without your wallet or without your key or like the means of you like engaging with this space nothing happens with with you in it right so you have to so you're almost in in a way like the center of your own universe or gravity as it relates to web3 so was everyone else and so like how do you take like uh something that is so um i guess centered around your individual agency and paired up with other people's ideas of agency to create something larger than yourself um and it requires all of you to be really really dedicated to the the cause of getting over the hump right because nothing in this space right now is is very easy or immediate except for the gratification of you send something to a while that you automatically receive it right um so it's real good at hitting that dopamine on that aspect of it but everything else still requires human work which is often the hardest thing to do and you can't hack it um but the but if you have shared and aligned incentives to say hey let us all use this these like tools this ecosystem this environment because we see how like after we've laid the groundwork that it can start to flourish in ways that we couldn't have had like dreamed of before then that's what really catalyzes that type of like really unique growth um that you see in certain communities for example like f2bb right like it started as like a small group of people just kind of sharing and like keeping in touch with each other and discord and it ended up turning into let's start inviting really cool and amazing like dope people uh that are curious about the space and are willing to try it and see how it organically grows into something larger and now it's like one of like the the best like social socially engineered spaces within web3 um but i think that the first thing that trips people up is not really understanding that um it's more than empowerment in this space it's it's all about capturing your agency and actually having it work for you or work like work for you in that sense um i think the second thing is like uh web 3 inherently is financialized right like everything is a transaction whether that is real currency or social currency cultural currency somebody is exchanging something for something else um and many people in many ways if you don't have the right guard rails around what your project what your community is representative of then it it leaves room for folks to sort of interpret that for you or interpret that for that community and sometimes you can create a schism when you have folks that are only really interested in just the potential upside or the speculation of how big that upside might be or how wide or how vast like your community might penetrate a particular market or set of markets and so you have to always sort of remind people listen this is this is the intent of why we're here this is why we are you know pushing our funds together this is why we're uh communicating because we see this larger goal and it's okay if you want to speculate on that if you're passive if you're like i want to help because i see the value in this but i'm not going to contribute i think that's okay but what ends up getting an issue is when things get tough and markets get rocky then those same people come knocking and saying well what have you guys done yet like i put three ether in this when you guys started i bought another 10th worth of nfts and everything's like 70 off what's going on and it's like well i mean you believed in us you gave us the money to and to invest in what we're doing but like all good things it takes time um and and so that's the other thing that trips people up to when when folks come knocking and saying hey like where's my peace um you have to have the resolve and the fortitude to say well listen like rewards are comparable relate in relation to to um what you put what you put in but also what you contribute um and if you're a passive player then you are going to be sort of tied to the way the market is working and there are certain things that we can do to sort of mitigate that um but at the end of the day this is more this is a this is bigger than you um so i say like those are like really some of the the two biggest things that i that i normally see uh that that create breakdown both in the early stages of kind of porting existing communities into this new paradigm but then also folks that have already been native i think sometimes the financialization um hurts the most or hits the most more so than the collective like agency aspect of it yeah on that subject um perfect setup for something else i was thinking about which is a question for izzy um i'd love for you to maybe talk a little bit more in depth about refraction down what it is and i'm curious specifically with financialization being kind of a two-edged sword um you know do you think that refraction dial and the work that you all are doing could exist in a world without crypto and how are you navigating the the challenges that seriously just talked about that's a really good question um so refraction is a collective of music artists visual artists and i think people who just really generally appreciate culture um i think that maybe to answer your your last question first if i think that it could exist in a world without crypto yes i think so i think that coordinating people who are passionate and share values around music and art and culture is totally possible i think that coordinating at like this scale probably not and i think trying to have incentive mechanisms that make people want to participate and and encourage them to like have investment in for instance like our creative grants program like being able to apply to the creative grants program and also like vote on the applications that we receive is not something that's i think done in this kind of really distributed way like there are obviously like grants programs and voting bodies and awards bodies that do this kind of thing but not where it's like your community is deciding essentially who's getting uh funds allocated and i think it's in a much less like stratified way where um i think with so many music and cultural organizations it's the same people who get shine and who get access and resources it's kind of like a snowball effect um and i think with refraction we're really focused on just people who are doing interesting and cool work and um because there's so much less of a focus on like one particular region or one medium um i think we see a lot of different artists that aren't like maybe the people that you know within music for instance like not the same people over and over again um i also think just in terms of like the way that i think about like red bull music academy a lot in terms of like what it did for music um a couple of years ago in terms of putting putting people on like doing really cool festivals um kind of like bridging the gap between like underground and mainstream artists and there's like probably to me i don't know if other people agree but like a really big vacuum in that space for like curating really really cool music and art festivals that um kind of like make connections for people and really um are really well curated and thought through and it's interesting because a lot of the people in refraction who like work on the curatorial side at tourist side like come from like they're not necessarily like crypto native like we have people from like a lot we have people from rbma we have people from utec um and i think that like because of the the tools and technology people are way more reinvigorated to like think about doing festivals and doing curation and doing editorial work um because they're not so focused on like oh i have to do some like really lame brand partnership with some like soda company um in order to pull this off it's way more about the people who are involved and everyone is um aligned around what matters um prioritizing artists thinking about like fair compensation like you know being being able to like really kind of like hand hold and like walk alongside artists instead of like being extremely exploitative and thinking about how can we get the most out of somebody um it's it's really a lot more about thinking thinking through you know what's best for refraction is also like what's best for the artist that we work with um so it's a little bit long-winded but um yeah i think i think that what we're doing in some ways could be could be done in web 2 but i think because of the landscape probably not because a lot of people who do the work um have been burned or like lost faith and like legacy systems for doing this kind of stuff yeah and elijah in kind of a similar vein the communities that you work with the spaces that you're in you mentioned that a lot of them aren't yet kind of like plugged into what's going on in this space i'm curious about why you think that is and what what kind of hurdles need to be gotten over for them to to start to experiment yeah in music people are still working like in a pop star format so in campaigns you know like releasing albums and then gonna send things to press and my manager's gonna do this an agent they're not really thinking about you know the ways they can kind of always be on or be part of things even if they're at a certain level so you have this kind of weird bottleneck that happens with people that maybe have put out good work and have been platformed to a level they kind of get plateaued and they don't know what to do next they think oh maybe i'll do more pr maybe i can get onto a website that will give me better press i'm like no you should be joining the the things where there's conversatives that you bounce off and and be given um as much as your as much as you're taking but i don't think people are seeing it in that way most of the time so you kind of have this weird dynamic where um say like someone's releasing an album and then they'd be like hey elijah um i need a web-free strategy for this like can i make some nfts of my album like they don't know what what they're talking about or anything like that but they know that it's a space where there's a lot of artists and creatives but it's something that's nearly like an afterthought rather than um something that they're building into you know the way they're creating or something that they genuinely want to engage in with people and it's a shame because um in that i guess that two-year period where everyone was at home um a lot of people that i know and i'm sure most of us have battled with like not been able to kind of concentrate on creating or being part of communities and now there is this kind of other thing people just want to be outside they want to be at festivals i'm going to be you know in the park and maybe not at a computer so much so he does some of the best artists i know just won't i don't know use twitter or use a computer for beyond making the tunes and um i guess what i'm trying to do um is just be an easy bridge that's like hey there's someone doing this good thing or um people not fearing it and making it as part of their day-to-day routine like how they'll check instagram they would you know check in on this like thing that's going on and sees another kind of pipeline of artists apart from the people that they might be you know sharing festival builds with or sharing club night bills with because there's so many people that are creating great work and like as you said but maybe not you know playing shows or already like being platform that level but in these communities they're already there making cool work something that kind of just came to mind that actually wasn't kind of what i had prepped but i'm kind of curious to get your take on it maybe seriously as well um there's been i've noticed like a lot of artists talking about sort of the pressure that's put on them especially if they're in major label deals to like produce massive amounts of content right and it's like the the work of being an artist is not just the the production of the artistry it's the production of the marketing around it and to seriously point earlier a lot of stuff in web 3 does require this like proactive engagement and this ability to like get in the ring and stay in the ring so i'm curious from your point of view like are artists who kind of like move into this space potentially replacing one burden with another and if not like what's the what's the real net benefit to them ultimately because they still have to do some extra work right but what what's the what's the potential gain for there for them there i think it's depth to me like um i i think people have oh i've gotta make a hundred tunes instead of ten it's like no it's like give an opportunity for people to understand the one tune or the you know two or three tunes that you're working on at a level that you might not like not doing on instagram or tick tock um and really like being open to exchange like i thought this is maybe what i would have done or just having a conversation about things like a lot of artists i work with the i guess they put out work in a way that isn't conversational it's like i'm excited to release my song you listen bye and i think we're we're all getting so much more out of the exchange and the conversation and going back and forth and changing things and letting people you know obviously remix and play around with ideas maybe take it out of a musical space there's so much like it's like there's like yeah literally infinite possibilities when it's brought to the eyes but yeah usually things aren't framed that way from the beginning and maybe that's not in their head but i try and push people to let let the art go like and let it you know play around in spaces that they might not be like familiar or comfortable with yet just one question that i wanted to run by um all of you really so i'll say the question maybe throw it to one of you i'm curious how in this space you square the difference between sort of the co-production and co-creation of culture and quality control you know in other words um how do you maintain standards in a world where um dallas might be more prevalent more and more people might be collaborating together for a certain end result i'ma throw to seriously on this one first um that's a great question i think the for me it's like i approach it the same way i approach work art or just general life right like there's i know when people excuse me when they saw nfts a lot of people were like oh most entities are garbage and it's like well i mean that's kind of to be expected right like before any of us become good at what we do we do a lot of things wrong at first we do a lot of things that like we may not like that we like but it's not quite where we want it to be right and so there's always going to be like this aspect of i don't necessarily use the word waste but like just this output that we that we generate that gets us closer and closer to our goal like if we all had the ability to do it like the exact way that we wanted to as perfect as we could the first time um you know i think we would have a completely different world that we'd be living in but we don't like we're we're we're we're formed off of the mistakes that we make and and mistakes that are done publicly at least in this kind of forum um allows other people to collectively find ways to help solve issues so that you can make a better choice in the future and then also that can create a ripple effect for other people to make better choices doesn't necessarily always work like that but that's sort of like me being optimistic um but i think like um uh the best way to to engage or to at least try to formulate quality is is always having a north star like what's the thing or what are the aspects that are guiding you along your process and do you have if we're talking about dallas for instance like are the are your core contributors your main community also aligned in that because as you're all collectively figuring out what looks good or what's good to put out then you can look at that north star as your guide and say well is it hitting these things um and i think at a certain point in time you even interrogate what the north star is because maybe you've hit that point and now you need to go somewhere else um maybe you've you've decided that we've tried this aspect and it doesn't necessarily work so we need to figure out something else right um but it's always about having constant communication um and and developing alignment on um where to move uh and sometimes i'll even say this too which is kind of counter to dao's but not really um that you don't need to rely on everyone to make a decision at all like all the time right like there are certain things that like require you to make a very snap decision and you should feel again that agency to do so and be okay because the community can back you right um it's not necessarily just going and doing a round robin and asking every single person are you okay with this decision are you okay with this decision but knowing that like everyone is aligned um at least more in the meta context of what your overall mission is that you have the freedom and the space to execute as you need to or as other people may need to so andrea same question how do you maintain the vision for she said so as you start to wade into the world of web 3 with it yeah i mean i already kind of hinted at the fact that you know our community is pretty big at this point and as the more you scale the more difficult it is to keep those things in check within a web 2 kind of ecosystem especially um and so for us there are two layers of i guess curation on one hand we create people we do curate our community to welcome people who are who share the same values with us so for example if you're a white cis woman and you want to join she said so you must demonstrate in some way that you understand intersectionality and that you come into this community with that understanding and you're navigating it right and and you're occupying space in that way very mindfully or um yeah if you're you know if if like me i'm a white woman cis white woman but i'm from romania eastern europe you know i as a result of that i think i have different sensibilities towards other people's struggles um and so that's pretty easy to to do at the beginning uh right there are more or less different ways in which you can kind of introduce questions through the application process that help you uh identify that we have you know we also created resources like our own intersectionality style guide for example that we like push to people from the very beginning as they're trying to join our community for them to understand oh i need to like spend 15 20 minutes you know up applying to become a member i don't just have to like pay for it you know buy my way into but i have to spend a lot of time digesting all this information and like you know presenting myself to them um and so some people quit like some people just don't even go through that process because they don't want to you know make the effort and those aren't the people that we want in our community but most people do make the effort and then the second layer of curation for us is you know ultimately we are a community of music industry professionals creators artists and so on um and there's a ton of music out there and it's hard to make good music right it's hard to make good that you put out into the world and most amazing things tend to have a ton of people behind them right again an example of how collaboration works best um so at that layer that's where things get quite difficult within the web to space because you want you we want to be a community that's accessible to all that promotes you know everyone as uh someone with potential but at the same time when it comes to creating music or putting out music projects uh ultimately the ones that are you know better quality whatever that means to different people will ultimately emerge at least in in our community in the real outside music industry world things are still a little bit different right um and so how do you manage that how do you manage how do you curate you know in a democratic way where the entire community is participating in that curation without having the web3 tools that's that's where i'm getting a little stuck you know that's where it's still a bit more centralized our community from a curation perspective ultimately you know everything does get to me and the various other people who are part of my core team and ultimately we make that decision and the way that those options trickle down to us again it's very it's a very opaque kind of process and i really wanted to make as transparent as possible so that we can truly give the chance to anyone in the community even if in you know they're in like a small village in romania they barely have internet access but if their art is really amazing they don't need to have a huge network and huge social media following they have she said so you know they have a place where they can put their art out and and there's a better chance for them at it being seen um izzy it's ten years from now uh the floor on all refraction nfts is like 500 each and eve is at 10 000. how do you maintain a curatorial edge at that point when something pops off in the space and a lot of times its cultural value is somewhat intrinsically tied to its financial value wow that is a really hard question um i think that going back to going back to like going back to like thinking about art and art like artist's objective and like the value that we place on it is like subjective whether it's like because of like the way that we appreciate its aesthetics or because of the fact that we're really driven by the financialization of it and the upside on you know buying something and making money on it but i think having a values aligned team and values aligned community that has like a shared understanding whether it's through like sops like um standard operating procedures or a manifesto or a way or framework to think about um what matters and why it matters um can you know like other other folks have said like serve as a nurse north star because it's kind of the same thing when you know things go up and when things go down it's like it really shakes how people think about value and what matters so um i think having something to return to that's like shared language shared documentation shared values um that can serve as like the grounding point whether something is up or down um would make would make sense to me and i also think there's room for for expertise um always you know like just because everyone is in this you know in a dow together doesn't mean that like someone's actual experience and expertise in curation or producing or whatever like should just become you know distributed to everyone it's like i think we can trust people who who have expertise in an area and lean on them when um when maybe like it's it's not the best decision for like a you know to ask every single member or to put it to like a vote um i think i think there's definitely room for expertise just to drill into that a little bit further i'm curious like because you have people with strong backgrounds and like name brand experience have there been situations where even at that level there have been like clashes of personality or different povs on who deserves a look from an event or not and how those things get handled um i don't know if there's been like um like necessarily like clashing but i think there's been like maybe you know different definitely different point of views about like who to book for something or like why but i think ultimately everyone trusts each ot trusts each other enough and i think maybe that's like the grounding point that like ultimately if someone feels really strongly about a decision um and it's in their area of expertise like everyone is aligned enough to to trust that person to make a decision i mean none of this is like life or death like booking someone for a show um so i think a lot of it does come down to trust and a lot of conversation honestly like i think a lot of things just get like worked out and like long dialogues and we have like curatorial team meetings around like okay like what do we want to accomplish for this festival like what is the sound we're looking for like um who's within our community that might make sense um so a lot of it just gets like hashed out in conversation in a really like not like snapshot voting way but just like real communication between people um yeah cool and uh elijah i'm curious like for again the artist that you care about the community that you work within i think a lot about how like technology has been always this like core component and driver of like the success and flourishing of a lot of artists and like the the grime and uk drill space i'm curious then like what would success look like for the artists that you work with as they like enter the web 3 space like what do you want to see kind of the legacy become over over the next few years um that has a hard question um i think more of us has been technically savvy and not fearing like information not fearing learning new things not being intimidated by um a lot of like the jargon that you're kind of like beating over the head with as you enter the space um so much of the language and kind of uh direction comes from like the us so like here in the uk like we've just got different like politics different problems different ways of looking at things and um i i want people to yeah just to feel like a kind of confidence and to be honest like just following on what for what everyone's saying about creating stuff um the it's not the real win but one of the wins and kind of things i get people to focus on is like did you have fun making this are we all having fun here like when we're doing the the dows and putting together these crews and teams and labels and parties whatever we're doing it's like this is supposed to be fun and i guess the moment it gets too um you know analytical technical you know number goes up number goes down it's like that's not what any of us got into this for so um you know they're creative you know being fun to make fun to share like fun to exchange like that being like the driving core of you know what we do like my background is in power radio and you i mean the mcs won't say this but i'm sure like they loved turning up to mc uh power radio they may want to describe it that way but why would they keep going back every week to just to just mc for free is because they they loved it obviously they could get them somewhere and you know boost their name but there was like a deep love for creating and this space does test out for you your love of create creating and creation and all the kind of language and and things that you have to go through to to get there but if that can enable more and you know creating things that might not have been created without these mechanisms then i mean that's a that's a that's a strong thing for the next you know you know five ten years like creating things that would have never existed obviously tunes um the man i'm always going to make tunes but i don't know like connecting with other people other communities might not happen amazing uh similar questions to you sir sue like uh coming from a design background working in the gaming space etc like what's the end game for you and kind of your involvement in the web 3 space what do you want to see flourish um for me i just want um people to be um [Music] true uh holders of their own path right like um my my goal is if i can get one person to understand that things in life happen because they are walking in the direction for certain for things to happen that they're that they're the co-creator of the life that they live that they lead um and they can take that and like charge like their own creativity their own lives whatever it is they want to do and if web 3 is the catalyst for that um you know if i can if i can get one person to feel that then that can be a ripple for other people um and you know i could tell you as a designer i worked in ad agency i've worked in consumer products healthcare you name it i was in every industry at least of you know for over a ten-year span and i never really felt like there was anything that was capturing capturing me enough um to go like that extra mile and like really embodied uh what i felt design could do as a as a as a catalyst or a tool for for empowerment and agency until i found like the web3 space and since being a part of it and helping um push artists through the mint fund or being able to help gamers figure out that they can monetize their likeness in very unique and amazing ways with the power and tools of web 3 or to even inspire the aspects of what it means to be competitive or to engage in competition um i think all these things are are our endeavors that really help people discover themselves through this work and and if so allows them to live and lead healthier and better lives whether both hopefully financially and also uh creatively too so i mean that's really my end game is to just get as many people on on board with that as possible everything else is an added effect cool we've only got a couple minutes left so um izzy andrea any closing thoughts before we wrap up i'm just excited honestly i know there's a bit of uh lumen doom out there and on the music industry side there is still a lot of resistance i have to say uh from a lot of people who are not willing to make the effort you know it's it's scary it's scammy out there um but i truly think it's the future of everything the web3 space will be the new internet you know and i'm so excited about all the ways in which we will be able to collaborate both in terms of culture creation as well as how we govern ourselves as societies you know that is the thing that will probably be a big game changer and we'll probably take some time before we get there cool well i'll just take this last minute to thank everyone for participating thank everyone for watching you heard it here first dao's kind of underrated a little bit overrated because of the vcs technology kind of whack it but cool if you use it right and if you're not having fun you're doing it wrong thanks everybody you