Next Level Ethereum with Arbitrum

hello everyone uh welcome uh to the october meetup of ekl uh today we'll be hosting fred from arbitram um who will be discussing more about layer 2 optimistic roll-up and what arbitraring does as usual our sponsor is ether scan and we'll start off our meetup with a monthly roundup and for that before that uh just a couple announcements quick uh so we're doing a bunch of polling and it's very like unofficial polling uh you can answer in the chat here or maybe in the ekl telegram group uh if there is interest in an unofficial person hangout so we can just go lipa adamama and there is no liability to the ifl meetup group if anyone gets infected by kovit but because we're not on lockdown anymore if people are interested we can have a hangout session in prison so please let us know and secondly there were a couple people who uh indicated interest in our telegram group about a quote together or office hour session we can do that probably in gather town um we can arrange one like over let's say one hour over a weekend so there's enough interest for that we can do that as well so again let us know here or in diagram and lastly there was quite a lot of interest in one of the tweets i think from suraya from ringu irrigate where i think we quote tweeted from ekl to say that we can do like a basic uh hands-on workshop on how to set up a wallet and some super basic uh defy stuff uh so if you're interested uh again let us know and i think for sure we'll do that because there was i think at least like 30 people that um let's say they wanted uh for us to do it so we'll find time over one of the next upcoming weekends all right then for the monthly roundup um let's uh let us take it away yep um thank you so yeah so for our monthly roundup so if you guys are on tick tock and if you guys are not welcome to the club um so actually uh this is the first tip top moments uh at the auction and it is live at the moment and it is powered by imitable x which is only two and if you are into um tick tock nfcs then maybe this is something of your interest i think the current bid when i took the screenshot it was around 60. so yeah um next sorry right and and um recently um china had tightened its crackdown on cryptocurrencies and had declared all cryptocurrency activities illegal and one of the consequences of that is uh sparkful which is one of the biggest italian mining pool had had closed its operation initially they intended to just stop um serving um in china but now they have decided to stop the entire operations um next and i actually just found out about this so um france the largest bank proposing to borrow 20 million die on maker and i think the bank is called society general and it is the third third largest bank and they are proposing to uh to use the bond that they are issuing on ethereum as collateral and this is actually and this was actually posted on maker's forum so it is not has so it has not been passed in in the proposals yet so it'd be interesting if to see whether the community actually takes up on this um proposal um i'll send a link to the forum post that was sent by um by the bank if anyone is interested and and and in the form that they mentioned that they want this to be a pilot to see if they can fit defy with france legal banking system so it's taking the term the future of france quite literally uh yeah that's right and uh recently uh christensen uh wrote an article um uh saying that uh mcdowell and the community should lead defy and into um investing into uh solving climate change and some terms such as climate alpha where investing in businesses that have affected climate change into the business place come in and and and and he also argues that mecca down governance should lead the way in the fight in paving the way for a better solution towards this climate crisis that you're actually having next and also polygon recently launched i'm sorry so ey has announced that it is integrating polygon into its existing blockchain services and it will be focusing on enterprise client and and and to further expedite the roadmap to integration with ethereum net so i thought that that statement is quite interesting and i and it is called ui polygon nightfall and you will be looking to offer both um private uh both permission and public blockchains into its enterprise clients [Music] next some local news um so um [Music] heather landing's deal to operate a one thousand the currency money in malaysia so it's a deal between a singapore exchange of a company with an asset management company and you and it's and it's going to start around the fourth quarter of this year and use and it actually announced that it will repurpose its retail mall in malacca for digital activities including cryptocurrency so if anytime when you're able to you can maybe take a look which small i'm making the most noises and uh last but not least so my eg if you guys remember recently my eg has uh has quite a quote d5 license and and today they have announced a partnership with chinese movie to set up a blockchain platform infrastructure and it is a partnership to build quote-unquote supernodes around the world based on the blockchain system that will be developed by china will be and it will offer both private and public blockchain and which also will cover countries outside of malaysia as well um i think that's what we have for the roundup um i think giving back to you all right uh thanks as far i just want to make a quick mention to uh spark pool uh which is uh i think right now well before the announcement was the second largest mining pool in ethereum and um just a quick mention because uh i think the story of people who are not familiar uh about them is actually really cool like it got started by a bunch of uh community supporters of ethereum uh i think there was a platform called east fans and it was just a bunch of normal people in china but because there's there's just so many people in china that uh when they just decided that if they could do something um and they thought that what they would do would be a mining pool because there were so many of them um and they started from essentially just a a supporter community project into the uh at times largest mining pool uh in the world and um some of the stories i heard i i i hope other people can vouch whether it's true that um they even had cases where like uh there would be a small village like imagine a small couple somewhere in the middle of china um in the rural areas where they have like maybe a windmill and there'd be electricity that gets generated by the windmill and no one actually uses it and they got they just got like young people to set it up to a mining rig and whenever it's like the windy season they would just like use it to mine some eater and use that to essentially fund their village uh and when it's not windy they'll just shut it down so there are a lot of very cool stories like that and uh it's kind of a sad thing that they're leaving the uh the entire entire ethereum space um yeah so just just like mention that luckily full story all right so uh next on the agenda i'll just stop my share um can we get uh rafik from kitajager.com to share uh what you guys are doing with uh nfts uh to incentivize charity uh hello guys so my name is jasik so i'm actually part of the team that's been developing we already we already developed a p2p charity platform and i'm gonna share it to you guys about our little project here uh can you guys see my screen right now but yeah so key to juggle nft campaign is actually just an extension of our own platform so keto jugger for international people here it's just a short it's actually it's a malay word called we we take care because it's just uh half of the saying that we saying meaning we take care of each other because during like during the convict lockdown a few months ago then we were having a really worse time doing our economic clients or something like that so we have a really good settlement in social media that people are you know sharing about okay only us only we can take care of each other right now so in coming from that sentiment our team kind of like tried to develop a really scary website trying to help people to see who they can help during this time so because of that during i think it's july june okay during july we launched our platform and allows people to geotag themselves and what kind of help that they needed and also people who can provide help they can geotag themselves as well and those who can provide help they can just personally click their white flags and then see what kind of help that the person needed and from there you can actually interact with that person directly and ask them okay what kind of help do you mean do you need some sort of money or do you need some sort of uh you know stuff to eat and because of that we developed this platform and it received a widely it went viral and people adopt this platform for for some time right now so that's why we call ourselves as a p2p charity platform that allows good help to help us to help their communities so right now we are working a lot with the ngos so it's been a really good tool for ngos as well to help the homeless helpful food people who are really needed to help so it became um it extended itself further than just for people to help with each other now uh even ngos coming in and also corporate also shared their services within our platform so there the reason right now the team is actually trying to explore how to create like an incentive layer to p2p charity uh ecosystem so we are exploring the idea of utilizing nfds and that's why because we we are actually a software team that is that's not really involved in blockchain application it's not really involving decentralized apps and we think that this is actually really a good way for team to understand how to utilize blockchain ad and also try to create an incentive layer for our ecosystem that we've created already so is this nft that we created is just a four-week campaign where we reward users in the form of nfds and these nfps are celebrating or in honor to frontliners that have helped curb the cov19 panamic a month ago so these are pretty much a limited edition i would say we only we i think we're going to just produce 20 20 of these things so we're not going to produce any more of this so the way we do this is that uh people they they need to have a refinement to the requirement to get these nfts meaning that for for the first week they only need to help two white flags then they are eligible to get these nf fees and they can claim these nfts on saturday and there will be only five each week and i guess the people will need to like be the first five people to receive to click on that button otherwise they need to wait for the next week and it will be a different requirement and i realized that this this idea also came during like east kl meetup i remember it was like a physical meetup where people were saying that we need to have like an nfp to show like social proof of like social contributions to communities so uh because of that discussion kind of stuck in my mind so i was like oh it's actually a really good platform to try to test that so this is actually the pretty much the ui that we created with our platform if you see the first one it's gonna be like this one these are the core features of the platform but if you connect your wallet you can see we have to page my nfp and also the reading page and you can also see how many people that you have held and also the countdown for you to redeem so the moment that countdown goes to zero the redeem button will go will turn on and and you can collect these nfts and also uh what what can user do with this energy so we we try to figure out what kind of benefits that this rft soldier can get so our initial time was to make sure it has like a social signaling as a badge for doing good but i guess one of the reason is that people don't really our users are mainly not people that understand nfps but there's a lot of education that we put that as well in within our platform and also within our marketing material and we also give them some sort of benefits of holding our nfps meaning that kt juggle platform actually partner with a lot of corporates and they also give some sort of merchandises and we we try to make sure that whenever we have new partners we can have these kind of benefits to distribute to the token the nft hotels as well or if they want to sell it that because these nfcs are actually can be sell in nfp marketplace the 40 percent of the royalty will go back to will go to the kitchen operation fund so it will be as a form of donation to maintain the platform activity so the timeline is pretty much the same because it's quite expensive for us as well so the first week would be helping two white flags the second week will be um helping five white flags the third and fourth week is to be announced we're not sure yet how we're gonna create a requirement or give some sort of incentives that we can put into nfcs but yeah so for the future plans as i said it's just an introductory features for for the team to explore the incentive area for p2p charity platform and we actually have discussed a lot about how we can uh use utilize nft simple platform that means that we are thinking about creating some smart contract protocol as well to to dispute this kind of nfts and also we are thinking about open sourcing the this platform as well letting people other countries or any other developers out there to try to you know create this platform to help the communities as well and after the campaign we will try to gather again and try to tune the right incentive layer for our p2p to system utilizing nfts but yeah so far that's it right uh thanks thanks a lot rafik and uh yeah please feel free to share any related links in the chat so people can end up and if i'm not mistaken the artist for those nfts are uh is jio from the nfxt local community uh yes yes you mentioned a little bit on that like so uh we working we are working with uh one of the local artists and empty artists as well in malaysia so his name is jivo uh he has been doing a lot of pixel art as well since the nft boom and he also does other art out style as well and we are in the future if this kind of thing has really big response we are thinking about working with big artists as well where they can uh put their nfps in our platform and create like a really good incentive for people to help to you know drop those in in our platform but those are in plan and and we will need to revisit all of those plans you know after the fourth wave and some sort all right thanks thanks a lot roughly um yeah so uh everyone uh check out ketogenic if you haven't uh yet already um and you know donate to someone in need who is uh nearby and without further ado i'm gonna get uh fred uh from arbitrary to uh share your um talk with everyone there we go can you see my screen yes awesome so yeah hi i'm fred i'm a software engineer at off king labs and we're building out arbitrary it's a pleasure to be here at eat malaysia and talk to you all a bit about there too scaling with arbitrary and if you have any questions feel free to drop them in the chat as i go along i'll try to answer most of them and i've been told that probably the first question i'll get is when token so let me answer that already at the start so we can get that out of the way and the token for arbitrary right now is heath if you want to buy each you can pay for gas meat in our bedroom and use it and i guess that's a great segue for my next slide which is arbitrary and that's our flagship chain we're live on mainnet right now as we speak we've been live for developers since late may i believe so that's a couple of months and we've been live for all end users for 43 days and counting and yeah so what is this that we have live right it's an optimistic roll-up and our goal here is to scale ethereum right you want to make ethereum cheaper and more usable so many cool use cases for example so many nfcs just are so expensive and just so many get priced out you need to like the ones that are like for example so many use cases for for different apps are just too expensive to do on maintenance and that's where arbitrarily comes in we're trying to like increase the throughput and make it cheaper to interact with a blockchain but yeah as i said before uh we're trying to scale ethereum so let's take it back a bit and talk a bit about ethereum right what's cool about ethereum one of the very cool things at least in my opinion i guess i don't need to shield it too hard here since we're in an ethereum meetup as well is it's security uh it's about securing user funds right uh you have your tokens you have your e-balance and we trust the network and the protocol to actually oppose that for for us another really cool thing about ethereum is that it gives us this sense of general computation right you can express code in solidity that you previously couldn't like using bitcoin scripts and stuff like that and just as a quick spoiler what that allows us to do is to to build fancier protocols on top of ethereum right so for example when you're talking about an optimistic roll-up the expressiveness you get out of like solidity is very useful it's something that you it wouldn't be as easy to pull off in bitcoin uh yeah and the last point i'd say is adoption right it's about we have a lot of end users we have a lot of developers it's we have a great community the ethereum community is one of the coolest things about it uh but you can't talk about ethereum if you're not talking about congestions as well right we've all seen nft drops where like the gas prices go through the roof and you're just trying to find some block space you're trying to include your transaction but it's too expensive and that's what we're here to address like arbitrary we're trying to like keep the security keep the generalized computation and reduce the congestion on chain that means we can handle more people doing more things on the chain for a lower cost so yeah that brings us to arbitrary right we're trying to inherit the security from ethereum so that means if a user's fund is secure in ethereum if arbitrarily's protocol is implemented correctly and working the same will hold we still allow like programmers to have this generalized computation so you can still use solidity and express your smart contracts your adapts and all that and we're fully compatible with ethereum what that means is for example if you have adapter smart contracts running on regular ethereum we try to make it as easy as possible for you to also like have the benefits of cheaper computation using arbitrary and the way we pull that off that's the secret sauce and what what puts us apart from the other people so yeah we're talking about arbitrary money on top of ethereum and inheriting its security but what does that mean right it means like you want the protocol to be just as secure but you can't really be just as secure you want to be as close as possible and make clear assumptions that will give you those properties right and the way at least i see it uh from let's say a less technical perspective is you kind of branch off from maintenance right you have your regular ethereum layer one and then you have these different chains that are the layer two chains that just creates branches and you kind of go off the state and you start creating a different chain and then you can settle back with like the results so it's kind of like you started block x like block 100 you start going off chain you go creating blocks you interact with dapps there and then the result of all those just come back to ethereum and you prove that those results are actually correct and that's where the the roll-up part of this comes in but before i get into roll-ups i want to give a bit more let's say an abstract view of this that at least it helps me with the intuition and yeah if the diagrams aren't let's say designer quality but i tried to go more for the content here something's unclear feel free to shout about it on the chat uh maybe not shout but so okay we have this layer 2 virtual machine right we were saying we want to offload some of the computation from arbitrarium to the separate virtual machine sorry from ethereum to the separate virtual machine for example the arbitrary virtual machine and we just have a series of inputs that is going into this different virtual machine right and these inputs is an abstract way of seeing like user transactions or for example deposits coming in of ethereum and those are the inputs that's everything that's going into this virtual machine and then you just execute this stuff and this virtual machine is always deterministic and you get only one results that is the correct results when you when you do this execution and that's kind of the view right so you have the separate virtual machine but you still want to inherit the security of the layer one so a cool way of viewing this is kind of like putting them side by side you have two separate virtual machines you have the layer one and then you have the layer two and can we set this up in a way where like the layer two virtual machine can be let's say enforced on the layer one and the way we do it is for example when you have inputs like transactions from the user all of these they don't go straight to the layer two what happens is they go into the layer one and this data is always available there so what that means is anyone who's running an ethereum node can see everything that's going into arbitrary and we produce this open source software that you can check out on our github that is the node in the virtual machine where you can get all these inputs from your ethereum node you can execute everything and you can see the outputs and the ideas that we post these outputs back into your ethereum and anyone can actually verify if these are correct or not and i'd say that's the the key part of of the roll-up that is we get a lot of these inputs we roll them together we don't execute them on the layer one but instead we just prove it back after a bunch of these have been executed on this separate virtual machine and i'd say this is one of the defining characteristics of a roll-up and there are different flavors of roll-ups that i'll get into it a bit later but yeah if if you're actually interacting with arbitrary in the last couple of weeks or months you'll notice that this is missing one key thing which is the sequencer and the idea of the sequencer is that it jumps here in between and it's a trusted party and the idea is that this trusted party has one superpower which is to wire their transactions so they're actually able to front-run everyone and it's something that you trust but it comes with a very cool side effect which is one you get fast soft confirmations which means if you're using sushi swap you're using unisoft using any dap on the layer 2 get an instant confirmation in two seconds one second and the ux for that just feels so good especially if you're coming from a different chain like i don't know about other people but it's quite annoying sometimes to actually deal with the delays and of transaction inclusion on the l1 and well you might say like this is bad you still have a centralization vector but the cool thing is the sequencer can never steal user funds the only thing you can do is actually front front people and something we're working on is actually research on how to decentralize the sequencing service and this is actually active like rnd engineering we're doing and i'd say it's not exactly my area of expertise it's more of my other workmates and i believe ed did a presentation where he touched this a couple weeks ago we have documentation online about this so i'll just floss over the sequence for a bit so we can keep it on the high level optimistic grow up thing hey so good so yeah we were talking before about like let me bring it back to this diagram it's about the inputs going to the layer one virtual machine right and this is what we call the data availability parts and this is the one of the key differentiations when you're looking at some solutions for example like comparing optimistic roll-ups to plasma what plasma does is uh plasma doesn't post all this all this data on the layer one so when you don't post this data there's the nice size that you don't need to pay for this call data which is a cost that goes to users but the downside is how do you prove this back then because if you have all the data there i can you can always reconstruct the execution of a rollup but if the data isn't available like what can you do it gets a bit trickier right when you get into the zk space you have like some validium designs that are able to make some different tradeoffs and that's also interesting but that that conversation would also take over like at least two hours of our time you can maybe like talk a bit high level after maybe in the fire side people are interested in it but yeah roll ups we're talking about the state availability but i think there is a key point that is also very relevant which is the bridge that is when you're talking about uh a layer two scaling solution such as a roll-up uh you have you have a bridge which you which what means is you're able to send messages from ethereum to arbitrarium and the other way around from arbitration to ethereum but having these messages being forced by the protocol itself so for example traditionally if you're going from with your assets for example you want to send from each to a side chain or a different chain altogether or whatever what happens is many times you need to go through these bridges that are either custodial or based on authority or have some other kind of like trust assumption based on like a consensus there are all kinds of different approaches but many times this boils down to like different security guarantees or to having like uh to having like less trust and or crypto or a crypto economic incentives many times is what happens in these bridges for example you need someone who uses stake and then this the you do block validation based on that but when you're talking about a roll-up the protocol is actually what enforces this communication between ethereum and arbitrary and between arbitrary and ethereum so it's not a crypto economic issue it's if the arbitrary protocol is working correctly then that works correctly and yeah by the way this is a lot of information i'm spitting out so feel free to if you have questions or particular parts that i didn't explain very well uh feel free to send another chat i already see one interesting question and that one i'll leave to the end uh because that's a spicier one but okay uh third point that's on the slides that is the roll-up centric ethereum roadmap and what i mean by that is e2 right a lot of people are like oh if two is right around the corner and the merge is going to happen soon we're all looking forward to that isn't that going to solve our scaling problems and it's true it's going to help us a lot but one of the things that's going to help is actually help the rollups scale ethereum as well because at eth2 phase one what it does is it gives us data charts and as we're talking about here it availability is a key part of rollups and it's actually one of the main driving driving factors of cost so we've been deployed for like over a month now for users and i'd say like most of the fees that our users encourage is just from like posting this data on the layer one and as soon as if two the data starts from if you are out i think that's phase one memory serves me right and what that means is we'll be able to use these different data charts for our data availability which drives the cost down like quite a bit which is something that at least i'm personally looking forward to and a lot of people were let's say the community was talking about like uh the roads map being about everything you need to building up towards these execution shards but there was this big post i think uh late last year by vitalik where he was like hmm what if instead of making these complex execution charts we just keep the data shards that we've been talking about and we know how to do and instead we just use the roll ups for execution and this is the com the direction you see a lot of the community heading now and a lot of the developers thinking about this yeah uh so let's talk about roll-ups right and as we said before there are different flavors of roll-ups i also thought you know the chats that someone's asking why are between choose optimistic roll-ups versus dk roll-ups and yeah i guess the first question is what's an optimistic roll-up or a zk roll-up right and if i bring it back to my beautiful diagram here it's i guess it's about this output right here and it is you know how we get the inputs we feed it into the virtual machine and we get an output the question is how do you convince the layer one how do you prove it back to the layer one that these outputs are actually correct and i'd say there are maybe two main schools of thought here one being optimistic roll ups and the other one being zk roll ups and the way zk roll ups do is what they do is validity groups they create this zero knowledge proof that says like i'm able to prove to the l1 using some fancy cryptography that all these transactions that went off chain are actually valid and one of the differences between this is that you actually need to use elaborate cryptography and actually have all these representations inside a way that zero knowledge proof can represent it and the way we do it is we take a slightly different approach that is we know this l2 virtual machine here right and what we do is we optimistically like the outputs and we just give a delay window of let's say seven days that's the parameter we have right now and we say anyone can challenge an output saying that that output is incorrect and you don't need to like re-execute all the transactions to see that those outputs are incorrect what you actually do is you only execute one step of execution so let's say i'm someone who executed all the inputs and set the results in chain and hareth is someone who disagrees with me and we both had stake on the layer one contract and what we do is we play a bisection game which is kind of like a binary search where we go like oh i executed all this gas of these transactions and i believe we disagree either in the first half or the second half and i ask you that's like which half is it and then you tell me a half and then we go by sexy until we reach actually one op code of execution one like single instruction of this layer two virtual machine and that's the only thing that we actually execute to to give a fraud group thing like see this particular part is correct and for this to work that's why the inputs are showing so important because these are always available like the l1 smart contract knows the inputs of transactions so we can actually effectively prove all this fraud efficiently because the data is there for us so yeah uh that's the optimistic roll-ups and we take this optimistic execution approach kind of where on how we take these outputs from the layer two back into the layer one and that's very important because that's how we validate for example withdrawals so if you have your l2 ether and you want to send it back to the l1 you always need to wait for this annoying seven day window and that is because like if someone wants to prove fraud you need to guarantee that they want to be censored on ethereum layer one and i guess the general community sentiment is that one week is the number that gives us all confidence that this will approach and yeah something another really cool thing about the optimistic roll-up style of bruce is that we are able to have a one of n trust assumption that is we call it the any trust guarantee uh an option labs and it is that like it's not like the traditional r1 where you need 51 percent of the network for proof of work to be correct and valid for your l2 network to actually execute correctly all you need is one validator to actually be honest and that's really cool because it changes these trust models right that is you don't need 51 of the network you're able to like just have small networks for example if you have a game or an nft service or something like that where on the rest of the app and the protocol you already have this notion of a party with this privileges like on a game mentee nfts this translates very well to this trust assumption if you want to run your own roll up or have a validator and many times when users are interacting with adapt they already are making this implicit trust assumption and having this one of n i i personally think is really neat that is the way uh the way that the contracts can be enforced on the l1 is the sense that anyone can go there and be like oh this output is wrong let's do the fraud first let's see how it goes and yeah uh the problem as we've seen before is just the challenges on the layer one chain yeah uh here's someone who's singing on the chat about ck rollups versus optimistic and yeah so the computation is lighter on the optimistic uh when you're comparing to zk because i i hear that one of the challenges is actually the prover right it generates the zero knowledge proof is a very expensive process uh and that's one of the limitations but there's active research that does like has been doing great work on this that i've also been keeping track and yeah we don't we don't ignore the sdk research that's going down on the ecosystem it's like it's really interesting stack and of course we've got our eyes on it as well but uh another limitation is kind of like when you're comparing this idea of zk versus optimistic is the idea that it's like this is very new cryptography and it's very interesting and cool but like from our process of deploying maintenance and getting prepared and all that i believe that the the steps together are really tough and when you have a system as complex as like a zk proving system it gets even an order of magnitudes tougher to actually ship and pull it off but there are great minds and great people and projects actually working in this actively which is really cool to see yeah bringing it back to arbitrary right what's there what do we have deployed when we say arbitrary one what is our tech and yeah as we said on the optimistic roll-up side of things we need approver for the optimistic side of things right so what that means is we have our l2 virtual machine and we have the all the options implemented in solidity and it's possible to actually prove that a step of execution of this virtual machine was incorrect on top of that we also have our roll-up protocol that is live and running right now as we speak it's been for a couple of months and this roll-up protocol what it does is it allows different people to stay in in like the results of like the outputs of the l2 vm and when two two different outputs disagree with each other two different stakers what happens is they're able to challenge each other and find the step of execution where they disagree and actually prove that so that's how these two feeds into each other and the third thing is actually the layer two execution environments right to the vm so we're actively able to use our system and your smart contracts work and it's beautiful but there is one disclaimer which is we're still in beta and what that means is we're live on mainnet the main components of the system are there but we still hold like admin privileges and superpowers that is we have upgradeability over the contracts and if you find issues which we actively look for and are doing security due diligence actively we do patch them and that's why we keep always the arbitrary beta moniker it is to signal to users that yes we do still hold the superpower yeah what's next uh we're actively working on arbitrary to actually increase the security and the efficiency and the throughput of the whole system right and if anyone has been actively looking at our social media we had a big announcement uh last night uh at least last night in my time zone and is that iratrom nitro or nitro i guess nitro is on the current siege uh it's gonna be coming soon uh and what's up with that it is that we're gonna have a different vm and prover uh the new vm we're looking at is spasm which is a very fast and battle tested execution environment uh but we're keeping the same role up uh if we look into like what we were talking about before this roll-up side is still the same like for the dispute resolution is the thing we've been using for a long time we're just switching out a couple of components like the vm and the googler side of things to get the speed up that we want and i guess that brings a natural question which is like oh so if you're doing this big upgrade should i just hold off and deploy my contracts maybe it's not worth until you actually do that what's up and i'd say don't do that just go to arbitram test your stuff play around today because it's going to be a seamless upgrade and no migration will be needed and yeah it's going to be beautiful and on top of that uh what's next uh we have arbjum nitro on the on the road map and e2 of course as we said before uh the data shards are going to be a great cost decrease for us which is going to be really cool if you're curious about learning more and we have a great section of our documentation called inside arbitrome uh where we go a bit into the design rationale and some of the ideas behind behind all this here's our a link to our discord i'll send it on the chat for everyone here and also our twitter to keep up with our everything and yeah shameless plug we're hiring uh for various positions uh yeah if you think you're going to be a good fit send your cv over and i'm open to questions just brainstorming if there's any particular points people are interested in getting into from before yeah glad to um all right uh thanks fred um i think there are already a few questions but uh generally what we try and do is that um there's this five side chat so uh everyone please feel free again uh to put your questions in the chat or if you want to ask a question later you can i believe you can raise your hand and i can unmute you uh to ask verbally yourself but before we get into the kind of more heavier kind of questions i always like to start their five side check with um asking our guest so today uh fred like what was your personal story uh behind getting into blockchain getting into ethereum and how you ended up where you are now with off chain labs what's the story there that's an interesting story and i guess there are a couple different phases that went into that i initially like liked it with the ideas of blockchains and permission assistance when i was like in my teenage years like just reading random stuff random memes of course and just blog posts but i didn't engage it at engage with it like in a deep level and trying to understand what's going on under the hood and what guarantees we have how all the systems come together but like i flirted with the initial ideas of bitcoin and permissionless systems maybe in my seventh when i was 17 16 and then i went off to university and when i was in university i had all these ideas lingering in my head and i was studying computer science and i was in this random lab just doing a coding assignment and the guy next to me was like hey so tonight's there's an event where you can get free beer you want to come and i was like i won't say no to free beer so i went there and it was actually a blockchain event and they had a bunch of developers and that got me hyped not only because of the free beer because then there they actually showed me the tech and from a technical perspective and i thought it was very cool and from there on it just became a huge rabbit hole where i started just reading and engaging with what i could um and how did you end up with off-chain labs that's a good question so i graduated from uni and i was like i really like this blockchain stuff but i'm not sure like in which mode i want to interact with it do i want to just like be independent creating dabs and all that and they saw this research post by harry where he was this series our cto at often labs and where he was describing the an earlier version of arbitrary i was like damn this is pretty cool tech if i got to work with like that team or that thing i think on that team on that product i think it would be a great place and just really cool ideas going on and just trying to like that was about at the time where the gas price was starting going up so it was like i'll try sending my cd it was a bit like i won't get a chance but i'll still try and i sense my cd i got an interview and then something led to the other and here i am now so nice nice and interesting that you mentioned harry uh because it's a good segue to what i was gonna ask next uh which is what was the as far as you can share um what was the story behind of chain labs itself like starting out because uh i think the the founders were i think if not all then most of them were like academics and they wrote some really cool papers like early on like flash boys 2.0 and the instability of bitcoin without block reward so like um what led this like group of academics into going into like the real world you know and like starting its own um it's actually a very interesting question and it's just because when i interviewed with harry i had a technical interview and it was right around the time of like the the bitcoin happy and i had read his paper as well on the instability of bitcoin with all the block reward first thing i get into the interview i'm like harry are you nervous they're gonna have it again i read your paper i know you don't like it and it was a it was a very interesting interaction from there but yeah they have some really interesting papers as you said uh they have a the co-founders have a research background and i believe there were academics at princeton and the the ideas the early ideas behind arbitrome come from way back when ed our chief scientist had a had a lab at princeton for research and that's where the early ideas of like having the separate gm including it back to an original chain came from and i believe they published a paper where they actually formalized the system back in 2018 and the following year they decided like let's make a company out of this i think we can pull it off and they decided to actually implement all this and make it production ready all right nice um okay i think i do want to make sure that everyone's questions uh get asked so i'll start with those first before i uh put in any of mine uh so why can't uh ask very early on uh what is the sort of uh tech and ux uh differences compared to optimism which is like the big question i guess that you would have yeah so i think optimism uh is on the brink of announcing a couple of changes right they have the ovm 2.0 and i'm not too familiar with their designs there but what i'm familiar is their previous iteration and i believe one of the hallmarks there is that we had our this idea of the bike section game that i talked about that is instead of we're doing a whole transaction to prove fraud what we do is we dissect into a single wap code is the difference between two people are challenging each other and we just execute that single op code for to see the difference in results well they had a re-execution approach where the idea was like you actually re-execute the whole transaction instead of just a single op code of the vm and i believe that was the main difference uh with their new iteration i think they're gonna go into an interactive process which i think is a great decision on their part because i i think the whole design is needed that way and yeah i'm not too familiar with their new system to be able to to give a fair depiction here for everyone so yeah sorry for the disappointing answer uh what you described earlier is essentially the multi-round fraud proof right yeah exactly and like you get to like minimize the amount of computation versus doing the whole thing okay and um uh another major difference and feel free to correct me that we've heard about because we um a while back we hosted the flashbots team and you know they're all about mev and one understanding i have at least of the difference is that like avitrum is uh planning to or exploring like this you mentioned fair sequencing services whereas optimism wants to do like a like an auction kind of mechanism can you explain a little bit of of that yeah of course that's a very interesting point and yeah i actually looked online a bit and i wasn't able to spend a lot of info on their their auctions on the mev stuff so that's why i said i wouldn't be able to give a fair depiction because i don't know where they plan to take it but yeah we're committed to try to decentralize as much as we can the sequencer service and the idea is like uh consensus protocols traditionally they they never took into account the idea of fairness in the ordering of of the inputs of the stuff going into the system into the consensus protocol so it was in evergreen fields to just like what if we tried to like actually define rigorously what it means to be fair in the ordering of these events and how much can we actually maximize for this right how can can we ensure the fairness in this you know protocol and these were brand new ideas our ceo stephen goldsbetter he actually was part of a paper that pioneered in 68 one or two years back and the paper gave an initial demonstration of like how you can put these ideas in actually defining what this fairness means and how a consensus mechanism can show these properties and yeah since then uh there has been more research going on to this and actually like to look into what would take to actually take this into production and that's something we're actively looking into but yeah you should hear more from us on this soon i guess this as much as i can say now okay uh all right okay i'll let you off the hook on that one um uh the next question uh june asks um why did avitrum choose optimistic versus zk rola yeah so actually it goes back to what i was saying before right there are there a couple of trade-offs that go down as well like the ideas behind arbitrome are like they've been going on for a bit and i'd say that this idea of like zk roll-ups and optimistic roll-ups got really big let's say what 2017.

there was a famous like post by metallica youth research where he was like damn we can get 300 gps now and looking back it's kind of like down 300 tps nice but the idea was like this this idea of like zero knowledge proofs for this for this particular application is it's quite new right and when you talk about zika snarks i believe a lot of the innovation on the field was actually driven by these by these blockchain protocols actually doing active research and protocol development on top of these so i guess it's a mix of like different trade-offs and also just different positions and it's it's like we've had our eyes on the tech but we've been building different tech for before that right and by the time that like zero knowledge proves slide zero knowledge proofs are a different construct with different like trade-offs and i believe the approach we took to building our system was prioritizing different things and also at the time the technology was very different from what we see today and it will be very different five years from now in two years from now so yeah all right thanks um then i think there's a couple questions which are related essentially uh any exchange to withdraw directly to our bedroom and any fiat on-ramps to arbitrary so i i think i'm not sure but i know we have announced a couple of them i don't know which ones are live and which ones aren't i'd say the best place for you to look at if you want this information is we have a portal of what's live and what it and yeah and on social media we'll for sure make an announcement uh as we onboard the new people doing on and off ramping into our bedroom like we we're talking with quite a few like a number of projects about this i'm i just don't think i can name drop here right now but you see a lot of announcements soon okay and um actually on that note um because uh and i think this is a question that someone asked me recently like uh there is one sort of trustless bridge uh the official first bridge between avitrum and um ethereum lay one right so if you withdraw directly from an exchange um first question are you using the the main trustless bridge of arbitrary and if not then what are the trust assumptions that you're making by going directly from an exchange so when you're going directly from an exchange uh you're first trusting the exchange itself and then the platform you're being onboarded to right so when you talk about like depositing from an exchange it is that you give an exchange your address and they transfer the funds there and that's a regular transaction on the l2 and when you're withdrawing from arbitrary let's say to a centralized exchange uh it's the same process you have your address with your with your funds and you send it to an address that is controlled by this exchange that then credits your accounts and i'd say that you're not explicitly using this trustless bridge of ours what happens behind the hood is that the exchange itself can use this to actually rebalance their funds right because this exchange actually needs to hold liquidity on the l2 on the l1 and in every chain that it's present and they can use these trustless bridges to actually rebalance their funds without needing to make big crypto economic like trusting assumptions right and a related question is um what about other bridges like between l1 and l2 like uh i think there's uh like celebrate hop uh protocol like what would be the difference between using those bridges versus the arbitrary main one yeah so some of these bridges have some really cool characteristics so for example as we were talking before we need to give a time a time window for people to be able to give fraud groups on ethereum with regards to arbitrary so what that means is there is a delay right whenever you want to withdraw funds it takes seven days for this to take effect and the user experience for that is very bad it's very it's very annoying so that's where these bridges come in that is we have this protocol level bridge that is low but robust and then you have the you have other bridges that try to bridge this gap and sorry for the fun could involve myself but yeah you have many you have hop you have connects you have seabridge as you said and the idea is that different ones have different constructs so for example there's a classic approach which is hash time locks you can use hashtag locks to just use to do is do an atomic swap between arbitrary and ethereum and the bridge could be just that right someone who has liquidity and facilitates that for you to just bridging your funds from one side to the other that doesn't really work for generalized communication but it works for just senior assets and you have for example connects to uses state channels uh to actually do this sending from one layer to the other and i'd say each bridge has their own flavor and different assumptions and different characteristics so it's it's hard to put everything in one box yeah uh all right um so the green hero is asking what kind of dabs or services are suitable to be on arbitrary so that's a great question and at least i think every dap is pretty much suitable to be on our room uh uh come join us on twitter uh but i'd say there are particular apps that can can take better advantage of the scaling benefits of an optimistic roll-up right as i was saying before uh one of the key things is one of the key drivers of cost is actually making the data available in the l1 it is us actually posting all that all that all those inputs into ethereum itself and that's most of the cost so if you have an application that doesn't use a lot of call data but uses a lot of computation itself it can take it can have even better use of our drum rights so a quick example would be if your dap is the kind of dap that has like a lot of like input data that needs to go into each transaction although that's like if you have a huge battery that needs to go in all that also needs to go into ethereum and that generates a lot of cost but if you have a different protocol that just uses like not a lot of inputs but a lot of computation inside of it and that's where you see a lot of savings come in i don't know i think there are also like different ways of positioning this i think that just like a lot of apps that have been traditionally priced out for material maintenance just because it's too expensive to use it i think that there's a great arguments to try a scaling solution and yeah there are there are like so many designs that we haven't even begun to explore as a community that are enabled by this and i'd say that that's one of the things i'm mostly looking forward to and that's why i find these meetups so much fun because it's all about communicating the technology to the community so the community can actually build and do all the cool stuff right uh it's it's kind of like an emergent phenomena where it's kind of like it's not just about putting out school texts about the whole community being on top of that and the network effect of all of us builds you on top of all of those okay maybe another way of asking the same question is uh what that would you like to see on arbitrary and if not a name but like a type of them so i was i was a big gamer when i was younger so i always have a soft spot on my heart for like pay to earn and i think that just like being able to reduce the cost of all that is just more that goes to the users and the people engaging in these platforms and as it like we're still in early days of rollups so as it gets easier to actually maintain and deploy rollups one thing that i'm curious about like seeing in the future is just like these independent roll-ups that are just for gaming right because the cool thing of being a roll-up with everyone else is that you have the composibility with them but many times in these games you can have just an independent instance and when you're using a roll-up you're still inheriting all the security from ethereum and like i think with games you can really hit the soft spot like a sweet spot there which is kind of like you don't need the direct composability it's all right if it takes a bit on most cases and you still have like huge cost savings for your users so i'd say that's the one that's nearest and dearest to my heart okay i would say if if somehow you guys can convince the xc infinity people to go on arbitrary then yeah you're probably going to like max out whatever current limits you have already okay um toga is asking well it's not when token but when airdrop um we you are kind of you answered the one token question already so maybe another way of asking this is um like one issue that change whether it's l1 or l2 have it's like how do you get liquidity on right because then there's an effect that liquidity begets more liquidity so are there any ideas or or plans on like how do you like pull even more liquidity onto our bedroom so uh as we were talking before i think it was before we started the recording right we had some like crazy like uh yields farming pools just one weekend so i think we didn't really have the problem of like lack of liquidity i think it was more like at least i woke up and i was like damn we have one billion dollars in the system i was a bit scared like because it's only just fight i wouldn't say scared let's say i was surprised and so i don't think we're having this issue and i think just like having the great tech having great tech a great team working on this tech the commitment to the community is what we do and that's just like naturally has like its consequences that is liquidity flow flows in we have permissionless deployments anyone can come and attract liquidity is all about like it's not necessarily us explicitly trying to do an air drop to bring liquidity in but is us putting out the tech that there is demand for it we know that that like devs wanted users wanted and people are using it and yeah i think there's no need for an air drop in between that okay um i think regardless of what you say people will uh still ask these kinds of questions i don't think this is recorded i'll just play this back to them that's true uh okay um another question that i had was um so uh what we currently know of is uh only arbitrary one um but that isn't the only sort of arbitrary layer two chain that uh you guys are working on um i think uh recently maybe like a month or two ago uh reddit announced that they'll be doing their um their chain or that yeah community token uh on avidrum um is there anything you can share maybe not like companies or projects that are planning to launch chains on arbitrary but like how that will work out uh versus the current arbitrary one so yeah the way i see it is kind of what we were talking before that we have these data shards and we're talking about having different execution shards on ethereum too now these just kind of become rollups and the way i see it is we have arbitrary one and we do have arbdrum2 which is a reddit on testnet as you said and i just see more and more of these like shredded execution environments coming along and yeah personally i think that like these fortune 500 companies coming into these is is a very interesting like value proposition because they're still able to have like inherits the security from ethereum as a public permissionless chain but they're still able to pragmatize it for for their particular like use case and their production needs and all that and yeah uh i think there's just more and more interesting things to come as i i think with someone at the start of the presentation was also talking about like tick tock coming in with the like best moments and it's a similar idea uh they picked a zk roll up over an optimistic roll-up and there are trade-offs there but i think more and more companies are going to be on board with this idea and um related question would be um so because you described earlier you mentioned um like with the object of neutral as a change to e-wasm so could there potentially be different um sort of different vms virtual machines on the different arbitrary chains um um can there be different um sort of just languages or difference in the maybe even like the sequencing kind of um structure yeah you're completely right and the really cool thing is that with this roll-up design this optimistic roll-up design is you have these it's kind of what we're doing now right it's pluggable in the sense that you can have different systems with different vms running with different capabilities and uh us moving towards the wasm environment that's a really cool thing that is a lot of traditional languages are able to compile down to asm as a target so like that means that we're going to have ethereum compatibility with the evm for your two contracts but we're even like we're going to maintain this compatibility but we're going to extend your experience so that means that like oh you like codeine rust you prefer a different stack uh we're much more like uh welcoming to those kind of projects now and i think this idea of like exploring with like an l1's change security uh deriving from their consensus such as from ethereum and just experimenting with different dm's different execution environments different formats i think that's a really cool design and i think a great example to give on that would be fuel fuel is another optimistic pull-up but the approach they're doing is instead of having an account based model uh in ethereum we have this account space model which in arbitration we also use uh what fuel does is they use a new txo model following like the idea of like bitcoin a bit more and you have some really cool properties that you can get from that of course always with trade-offs as well but i think just this like wide experimentation that is happening around the whole community is really cool and we'll see a lot of like interesting things coming out of it um and i guess generally we try and avoid naming names but like a very simplified question would be like uh would it be possible let's say for uh someone like solana to just like be an arbitrary role up um in the future so what could happen is you could actually deploy a roll-up to solana itself right that is solenoid is a layer one chain with its own consensus and you could actually have like a system that does off-chain computation on it and then proves back okay so yeah i i believe that like just like we have a lot of roll-ups in ethereum we're going to start seeing like more roll-ups and different chains as well as we come to see it and the design ends up being quite similar if you look at like fair chains from parity it's kind of same idea where you have like a base chain and then you derive the security on these other power chains and then you're able to settle back states and you have data availability on top of that and i there are like analogies between all of these and i i think it's just like a common design pattern that most people are setting onto and i think the adoption in this way of viewing blockchains in like a more modular fashion like having the dates availability part then having the execution part i think that's going to become a bigger and bigger thing yeah and that was actually going to be my next question because like uh over the last like couple weeks maybe like there's been a lot of these sort of trends there's this one very popular guy on our reddit i think it's um librosis uh you slash numerous because we're writing these like really long and great threads about the modular versus monolithic um vision of blockchains um obviously as soon as you're doing a roll-up uh you're working on the modular side of things uh do you see uh maybe this is a bit of a sensitive question but do you see a future for like monolithic uh blockchains as well um like let's say competing with the modular blockchains on um like scaling and things like that yeah so i guess there's a game of semantics there as well in terms of like what we mean by monolithic and modular and all that but i believe that the distinction between like having the data availability layer and consensus then you're having a separate execution layer i find this a very neat way of dividing things because these are a different set of problems that for example if you're just talking about consensus and data availability sometimes it's it's much easier to reason about some problems than if you're also trying to optimize for the execution then and the trade-offs you make on each space if you're actually making this clear distinction you can make like clearer trade-offs and have like better experience for users and developers on each one yeah they're i think that just it's not about being monolithic versus modular but it's about like identifying the gaps and like when you're able to decouple these you can optimize better in different areas okay uh since you answered that so well i'm gonna ask an even more sort of slightly more controversial question uh would be uh in your opinion would bitcoin be able to have these uh kinds of um like modular um ecosystem yeah so uh that's an interesting question and i guess the first thing like bitcoin is very interesting right uh but the thing is if you're gonna code on top of it is what i was getting to before in the presentation it's like the general computation that we have on the evm it's very useful because we're actually able to express uh code and logic much better uh than than on bitcoin scripts like the this concept of like statefulness that you have in ethereum it's kind of like the world states that you have all the time has some trade-offs but it makes it much easier to express for example the roll-up protocol if you're trying to like implement uh the vm like proving system in between scripts like damn that's gonna be impressive uh please let me know if you pull this off or if you have like a good approach to doing so i think it's gonna be really cool but yeah i think it's quite tough to pull that off in bitcoin uh they have this it's let's say this consensus around like minimalism right and the thing is if you're too minimal to the point where you can't add like let's say a different hash recombile or something like that it gets very hard to build on top and there's also the the notion of state fitness rights which makes it harder but i'm not a big bitcoin programmer myself i guess other people would be able to answer this better but i guess these are my naive views around this yeah i think again i i probably know even much less about uh bitcoin stuff uh than you but i think some people have mentioned that if they were to be able to push certain um uh changes to the protocol like uh something called the covenant then it could be like a small step towards uh enabling things like roll-ups um but yeah like you mentioned like the the consensus within the community is is a lot more on minimalism so it might be a tough um you mean the conditional utxos right uh to be honest i just know the name i don't know anything better than that i i think fuel is doing something similar to that they're exploring that area but doing it on top of not on top of bitcoin itself i think that building on top of bitcoin the lack of statefulness is a big interest as well on top of like lack of options we actually did an april fools joke earlier this year where we made a post on twitter on the off channel labs account just like okay we decided to pivot now we found out about this opcode to verify roll up on bitcoin and we're just deploying everything on bitcoin it was a good day profuse joke okay yeah yeah okay i'm gonna move on from uh that kind of topic now uh uh togas asking is representing uh shiddan um we're not pronouncing it wrong or slash astar network it's a parrot chain on polka dot and kusama um we also have the zkroll ups and ovm do you think it's possible to bridge between you and them yes so for the trustless bridge i was talking about what happens is the bridges between your base chain and the layer 2 chain itself so like the trussless communication you have would be between like layer 1 and polka dot and to actually get this information across to ethereum i don't think there is a trustless bridge but in terms of integrating using other solutions uh sure uh there is like the ibc protocol the interior blockchain communication protocol i don't know how well that fits in its rollups that's an interesting question for another day but there are many different protocols that try to create this composability that for sure it's interesting uh the itching one you mentioned is the by cosmos right yeah exactly um okay then um moving on to another question um so currently uh the sequence as you said is centralized uh do you have any kind of roadmap or any kind of indicator for when you would be able to start decentralizing i don't believe we've shared a public roadmap around and centralizing the sequencer but if you follow us on twitter and discord you get the news there once we do okay okay uh but like is it in the kind of um scale of years months or are you able to answer that so so i'm able to answer that our priorities right now are like security and shipping nitro as we're saying and that's 100 on our world map and a priority as well that we've got our eyes on uh it's hard to commit to like a quarter next year or this year or whatever but yeah soon ctf yeah all right yeah so we mentioned china earlier in the monthly roundup and there's like been a pretty huge crackdown like uh we mentioned spark pool uh but also some of the exchanges i think hobby uh shut down their china services which you know like previous crackdowns hasn't really uh haven't really had the effect that this one has and um as i understand it there has been quite a i don't know if it's big but like quite a community uh in china for our bedroom and like has has that impacted um the community at all over there yeah that's very good points right at first i was like yeah they ban every other week bitcoin and if you're in like in cryptocurrencies in china what's up this time and then i started seeing that actually like the chinese community was moving around this and actually like uh responding to it much more and yeah i personally was concerned but i'm not too sure i think that like when you have permissions projects you can't really come after like the teams right it's permissions to have control over it and yeah i guess i'm not the best political commentator for this uh but i i think they were going much more after not necessarily like application level developers but mostly people actually like putting out currencies and like more the service providers on the currency metrics for example miners so if you're like an application developer that deploys a smart contract and it's permissionless you don't have control over it it's kind of like you can't really knock on the guy's door or one's door and ask them to take it down right it's not how the network works but you can get the miners down so yeah that's why i think it was more chill for us even though for sure they felt depression did you see like any like um changes within the sort of arbitrary uh china committee like did they report anything yeah uh i'm not that close to the china side i do not speak mandarin or cantonese but we do have like other people in the art in the afghan labs team that are more focused on that community that's actually a very good point they should pick their brain and see like how's the general sentiment and i guess for our next meetup we can also bring them over and have a conversation about that once the dust settles should be an interesting one yeah yeah very good to see like there's a big uh china is very big so we're going to meet more of the people from there um and related to the the centralized sequencer question um are there any limits to the number of sequences uh because like i mean it's probably not that relevant but if you talk about like say uh proof of authority and like delegated proof of state there's always like a a hard limit uh do you have a similar kind of limit when it comes to sequences so uh i guess there's a trade-off that goes on here right that is when you're talking about sequencers the cool thing about it is that it's able to give you quick finality a soft confirmation on your transaction right that means that you're interacting with the network using your wallet and you send something over and you quickly get a response and that feels really good the great ux but as you increase the number of these sequencers they need to like agree between them on the order of transactions between telling any user the results so as you increase this number and they have stopped through the network and all that you're actually increasing this latency so as you increase this latency adding more sequencers you're kind of like undermining the biggest benefit that it actually brings so i'd say there's a trade-off there but there's still room to actually like have like quite a few sequencers reaching fast finalities and actually giving these fast responses to the users and the way i see it and it's kind of like it's about the way the phrase sequencing could work that we're looking at it is for example bft guarantee of bft consensus algorithm and this consensus algorithm is modified or modified but adapted to have this like order fairness and you have like a number of sequencers running on the l2 and they achieve this consensus between them to actually give users a finality and as i said before the trade-off is kind of like as you increase this pool you you lose on the like on the quickness um so so maybe if we were to reword that like if we wanted to keep the latency that the ethereum a1 currently has um do we know like a hard number of of a ceiling of the number of sequences with the current so uh i'm not sure maybe there is but not that i'm aware of uh and on top of that even defining the l1 latency is a bit tough right you have blocks every 15 seconds but next block inclusion only if you're willing to pay a lot of money you can actually make a strong statement about that okay um all right so um we are coming up to 9 30 which uh we'd like to end on time so if you guys have any questions at all that you want to ask uh fred uh please feel free to put in the chat um and in the meantime i'll ask you like a couple other questions while i still can um so would you be able to act very quickly if possible kind of describe the different uh layer two approaches out there i think you touched a little bit on zika roller but there's others like um you might have covered plasma as well but like uh validium i think there's like this uh uh volition um like a couple different uh ones like would you be able to share quickly on that yeah i guess uh each one has its own nuances but uh i guess there are trade-offs made from some of them that are easy to point out uh let's say for example if you compare an optimistic a roll up with a plasma solution say the main difference there between the two is the data availability the plasma doesn't actually post this state on chain and i'd say that's the defining factor when you're comparing a roll up to the lydium uh i'm not too familiar i'm not the best person to talk about that in the zika space but i believe with the ideas with the validium system you post only some of the data but not all of it just enough so you can actually validate the zk proof which is kind of like it's not really plasma that you don't post any of the data but it's also not also like a rollup where you post all of it and and there are like other iterations on top of it i think stockwear is working on adamantium and there are like a bunch of words for a bunch of other like ways you mix and match these different flavors of ways of doing things and yeah and there are some great resources around that the ethereum foundation actually has some greater definitions around some of these if people are interested in share the link yeah yeah i'm just waiting for the vibranium version of distance uh okay and um okay one hopefully last like slightly more controversial question is um within the community there's like this kind of debate between what is considered layer 2 and what is a side chain do you have your like personal thoughts on like what would constitute a layer 2 and versus a side chain and whether or not this even matters and it's just a matter of semantics i think it does matter and the way like the words we use affect a lot the way people interpret these things right uh i guess there's a contrasting ideas around this but the way i see it is a layer two chain it attempts to inherit as much as it can the security from its layer one chain and a side chain doesn't right you you can just have your own consensus mechanism on a separate network and your own nodes doing all that as many projects too and that's fine that's a side chain you have your own consensus your own trust assumptions and guarantees and then yes it is a trick question caleb but i i did notice in time but the idea is that like i guess some people draw the line in different places but where you see it is if you're inheriting the security from the layer one your layer two you were like building on top of that instead of building besides that which would be a side chain and some projects sometimes ship parts of their products and let's say they a project can commit themselves to like having fraud proofs and to having their system actually inheriting the security but many times they ship like other parts of the system first and then they lack these parts that are actually where you get the safety from and i think that's what created a lot of drama in the ecosystem and they're like constant crypto twitter debates which sometimes are fun sometimes they're too heated but that's the way i view the definitions and i think there was a recent revision on the ethereum's website itself on how they define layer two roll-ups that i think the guys that they're two beats were the ones who push for that l2 beats they're really is a really cool resource as well that what they do is they they list uh many different l2 solutions and how they approach it the different like risks and trade-offs and yeah they also have their definition on the back if you're curious for example i think they don't list a polygon and they describe why they believe it's not an l2 so i think that kind of covers toga's question in the chat already so uh we have three minutes i'm going to ask you like a full last question um so do you mind sharing a little bit of what happened over the weekend ah yeah of course uh you want to join me for that one caleb uh maybe i can ask caleb to unmute but uh i don't think i don't think many people are aware of this yeah we kept it on the download i was like i think it was a friday afternoon from your friday evening i was just some crypto twitter going through i was i was feeling a bit sick i wasn't going to go out but i saw this weird thing this guy did the library that was called the create 3 which was a different way of creating contracts and i was reading through this i was like this is some funky solidity but it's kind of cool and then as soon as i got it i was like damn this actually breaks something on etherscap i need to tell those guys but there was a gap in between there there was friday nights i i went to sleep like these ideas in my head it was like maybe you work an ethio scan maybe not i did a quick demo it didn't really work then i went to sleep and then i woke up on the saturday i was like okay so ah if i do that little change then it will actually break and then i did it and i was like hey caleb do you see this contract i think i found a problem yeah so you caught me on a saturday on a saturday evening it was about 11 00 o'clock during that time so yeah i saw your message and it was about gaming the verification system um it was nice that you caught it on rank of me because exclusively [Music] maybe before i go to that uh for for the for the benefit of the audience the the idea is that uh there's this guy called augustine he came up with a really cool funky way of creating contracts so it uses a combination of create two and create one to be you so that you can deploy contracts back on the same address um because the thing is we have launchers and if you change the byte code create2 will end up deploying it on another address so what he does is he uses a combination of create tool and create one to be able to redeploy even different bytecodes on the same address so fred noticed it uh he picked this up he tested it on rinkerby which yeah i can see that and i could recreate it as well uh i started studying it because it was really weird we do have this function called re-init on either scan where if we notice the contract was self-destructed before and we initialized with a different set of bytecodes we will put it up and say it's sort of like a hackish thing which we did a couple of years back haven't quite got the time to expand on it yet but it's to basically alert the users visiting the address page that it's a re-unique contract so that through then after that started involving matthew uh we dug through that through some of the code and stuff like that so it's kind of sort of like the quote with the guest phrase back then when we when the tracing indexing was done there's some differences between parity as well as gaff there's some left over sort of like legacy code stink which we brought over as well and some issues there so we had to sort of fix that had to sort of reindex some of some of the areas unfortunately it's one of the most comprehensive one of the most complicated areas of our indexes so it took a large portion of saturday and sunday to fix out but right now it's fixed um it's very much relevant only to get phrases that's why when fred tested it out on roxton it did not happen on rockstar because for oxford we are using parity phrase so it affected some of the gaff notes we fixed it on some of our sister explorer as well so what you should really be seeing is that you should see a re-init instead of having the code the contract white code being rugged from underneath you end up seeing the previously verified contract on a totally different set of my code exactly what i found like particularly counterintuitive in the way that was set up it's kind of like the self-destruct in my mind i was kind of like it's going to wipe the contract storage but it didn't realize that it actually wipes the entry on the account tree right so it wipes not only the storage but the not exactly and that just caught me off cardinals like okay it's going to catch a lot of people off guard yeah anyway johnson johnson did mention that uh even back then when creating like you mentioned on doing saturday night as well when crait was introduced in constantinople where the bug is already this sort of rack cool behavior is really around i think nick johnson mentioned that um in order to prevent this sort of rug from happening so uh they shouldn't allow the nonce to be reset but then again there's sort of other quirks behind doing so so yeah you see yeah something i'm curious about uh i checked for a mainnet and there are no resurrections from these self-destructs so this was never used on like to actually exploit someone one maintenance and just put into context the way that i find this like particularly dangerous is for example a rug farm right where you can deploy even like very similar bytes codes that just changes like a single rug function and stuff like that and even if you try to do some preliminary analysis on top of the verification it will catch you off guard but i'm curious if like your indexer spotted anything on other things i might have to take a look uh not 100 certain still a bit hazy from the from the weekend yeah hey okay i guess i'm gonna tell you that sorry i'm gonna come here and i think uh uh it's probably not uh something that ninety percent of the audience including myself uh can keep up with so uh we'll let you guys have this discussion uh later on um it's very interesting um but we already passed the 9 30 uh time and i do want to make sure we keep on time um so um yeah thanks a lot fred for your time um and for making caleb's weekend very eventful it's a pleasure being here thank you for having me and i'll try to find stuff on a monday morning instead of saturday afternoon next time caleb sorry i know rhys i always happy to get you yeah uh and and just one final thing very quickly uh before we let you go um if someone was a a student or or a programmer who's never touched the blockchain like what advice would you give them uh into like getting into this space go in with an open mind and don't be a maximalist about anything have an open mind about different ideas and different technologies because what we see in this space now is we see a lot of new interesting tech and just go in with an open mind and learn there's a lot of interesting stuff to learn and if you want to give me a follower idm me on twitter with any questions i'm glad to help your journey and there's like nowadays there are just so many like different resources on like how to code how to get started on all this and yeah complete slides into my dms with any questions yeah keep an open mind and remain curious all right thanks everyone and i'm going to end the official meetup now