7. Complex Products: Where DAOs and Funding Mechanisms Fall Short - Bogota 2022

thank you everyone for for coming um thanks Matt for the warm introduction I don't know if you want to kick it off by explaining a little bit uh what we're doing um yeah go ahead P okay sure uh hi everyone my name is Pua and um so I recently started a new project called teer Labs which is building a number of different um large scale human coordination mechanisms so very relevant to the question of dows um in particular right now we're sort of Starting by experimenting with um a an area that we're calling networked okrs so it's kind of the uh creating like a marketplace where people who have ideas about what is important to fund in an ecosystem can pair with people who have Capital to fund those ideas and the people who want to work on those ideas um so that first project is called radius and um yeah I'm happy to share more about that later but excited to chat with with yeah hi everyone my name is Daphne I'm a governor of blue um our mission is to help Inspire and Empower women around the world to launch projects on the blockchain um and I'm also the co-founder of Ki week Labs which is a product that was launched through a blue hacks program um Ki week is a decentralized asset store for 3D creators and so our main mission there is to help accelerate game and metaverse creation and really put the hands back in the power of the people creating really high quality 3D assets that help to make games what they are and help to make them really interactive and fun so yeah I'm excited to be here and talk with both of you yeah same um my name is Juan I'm part of the sustainable system SC scaling core unit in maker I've been with the community for yeah over two years I think and from the product point of view we're building uh governance products I guess um and yeah it's been quite challenging in in a lot of Senses so we're happy to to share uh some of the learnings we we've been going through um so I guess when you when you frame the how you build a complex product from a from a life cycle perspective uh you have different stages from discovering even before that what the problem is then kind of like experimentation MVP uh so maybe we can start over there um I've heard great things about uh blue hacks so maybe def you can tell us a bit more about how it works and what you're building yeah absolutely so blue hacks is kind of the first step in what we call our blue Builders program and so our Builders program um is meant to be an endtoend ecosystem to help women um ideate launch incubate ventor scalable products on the blockchain and so we recently just finished up our Blu hack program at e bota where we had a lot of amazing projects there um supersede was a finalist um and so yeah supered um so with blue hacks our our main focus is to be able to to put these amazing teams together of talented Builders from diverse backgrounds in terms of demographics but in terms of skill set as well and so um the main thing that we're looking at is being able to to find these teams that want to work together and that have this shared Mission and these shared values that they want to solve a problem behind and so when it comes to ideation and strategy we lead sessions for our hackers to be able to come up with the general problem the high level problem that want to tackle and then be able to dive deeper in the chnd and VA validate their ideas at a hackathon where sponsors and judges and mentors can give them that direct feedback so that they can uh incorporate that into the product that they build and then create another amazing product to launch uh live nice are these sessions in person or online and and how how long are they how much in detail do you go before you start experimenting yeah so generally a blue hacks program is an in-person weeklong event and it starts with you know the preparation session so the ad strategy sessions like I mentioned over the course of two or three days um and then we start to form teams and have those teams jump right into the hackathon and I think uh web3 hackathon is a great place to to learn but also to kind of be thrown into this ring of fire with all these different technologies that you can integrate with the sponsor bounties that are put up um and you really get a sense of you know how all these techn techologies interoperate with each other and how that can actually benefit the end product that you're creating and so yeah it's mainly in person but also there's a mixture of online sessions beforehand too nice and before we move p i want you to speak a bit about radius uh I think that's a great product so uh being a a Founder uh can you maybe tell us a bit more about it yeah for sure about radius in general yes so um yeah so I'd say we're you know we're still definitely in the stage where we're trying about a bunch of different things but kind of with probably similar mission to what both of you are trying to accomplish as well right um I know ju you also with the SCS are um interested in onboarding the next wave of developers into into web 3 and making them really capable of generating a lot of value and building kind of the next Frontier of projects that's really going to push the space forward so um that's kind of what we're what we care about too at radius and um I think there are many different uh different things we're basically trying to accomplish it's it's a little bit about onboarding and and giving people opportunities that they maybe wouldn't have otherwise had if they were just um interested in entering the space looking for a full-time job is kind of an intimidating Prospect you may not have the the the like protocol specific skills or the connections necessarily to um to find that first opportunity so we think that there's kind of a space in between where like educational programs um Grant types of opportunities or Project based funding to work on um in an ecosystem and learn about it can help bridge some of that Gap and then get people really ready to uh you know do the next tier of whatever it is whether it's going to be trying to build a like a ventor backal business or continue working on Grant funded projects or um yeah or maybe enter a company in the space full-time whatever it is but just kind of like trying to be that bridge in between and in terms of the what you going to the ideation is it that the clients or the companies that want they bring you the problem already or or is it like hey we need I don't know more like a specific position is it more project how does it work yeah so that is um so and I was actually curious as well for uh for blue hacks kind of if there is sort of this uh pipeline of ideas that's coming from somewhere because I think we all know in the space so many folks who are just extremely generative at coming up with um you know I think in the ethereum ecosystem obviously vitalic is constantly doing this and like the file Queen in protol Labs ecosystem Juan is constantly doing this these sort of like um people who just are so creative really understand um the the protocols that they helped create but also the communities that they're building and where there are gaps um that people aren't really you know they they're able to take this like 30,000 foot View and see where they're opportunities for people to to build uh and it's not just people like that but you know this these ideas come from everywhere um and so I think it's it's actually so in our case uh yes it is you know like the organizations that we work with um that are able to kind of see where are the gaps in their ecosystem where they think um there is an opportunity for for someone to build something um but I think in general what's really cool about kind of the more decentralized approach to product development is that you can actually start to decouple um some of these things where uh and make it easier and like lower the barrier to entry for people to develop complex products where they don't have to be responsible necessarily for coming up with the brilliant idea in addition to like how are you going to develop a particular solution or approach for that problem space and then implement it and you know all the way through you can kind of like break each of these um stages up and have different groups that are kind of contributing at at each stage so um yeah so I think that's that's pretty cool nice and in in terms of the of any challenges that that you might have seen coming up often and I will also ask you DNE about uh for all everything that's ideation and and going back to building an MVP U how how do you how are you approaching that and yeah what what what what did we learn from that yeah so U with the ID so uh actually there so there have been a lot of learnings I think from um I would say the non-web 3 world and how do people build successful products and businesses outside of web 3 um and so there's actually a couple of really great books that you know we've been that we have been reading as a team and that establish some shared memes about how we think about experimentation and and ideation and like really running very lightweight experiments to see if something is um you know a good idea or not before investing a lot of energy in building it out fully um so actually one book that I I recently finished um it's called inspired by Marty Kagan it's a great have you read it uh yeah it's it's great it's a great book up for anyone who wants to who is a product manager or responsible for Building Products um and yeah so you know just some things like that which I think are super applicable in our space too and I I think so often um I have seen it be the case a lot in web 3 um because people are so I mean I've been in the space now for like five years you know and it's just really interesting to see there's so much excitement and so much energy and so much open space where things need to be built that um I think there is definitely something to be said for just going out and like trying to build it and seeing what happens um but I think sometimes that also leads to a lot of wasted time potentially right or or frustration that something isn't immediately taking off and um just yeah running like lightweight experiments like the landing you know running building landing pages and seeing if anyone like that's still relevant in our space and seeing if if um if that resonates with the audience that you're trying to Target so we do that typ of stuff too what about you guys um yeah to your earlier point on uh you know coming up with ideas and how actually energy intensive that can be I think for us at at Blue hacks we focus on um getting our Builders thinking about like the high level idea like what do you what do you want to solve in the world like world hunger um you know Financial Independence like these are huge huge topics um but then we just break them up into groups and they start Speed Dating their ideas and so you're able to hear um different perspectives of people in the group um in terms of how they would tackle that problem and so yeah I think for us it's it is incredibly empowering to come up with your own idea but I think it does need to come with a little bit of of teamwork CU that's extremely energy intensive but um no I love all the work that you're doing and um yeah I think there's a lot of synergy there um when it comes to like some of the challenges that we're seeing in terms of product development at um with blue Dow and our like hacker teams I think a lot of it is the stigma when it comes to product development in web 3 a lot of people think that you have to be a developer or you have to be Tech technical to build products and um a lot of our work is um geared towards erasing that myth um there's a lot of career paths like you were talking about earlier in web 3 that people just don't know about and so um we're trying to give a bit more transparency to those career paths and actually you know show people that you know a diverse team of marketers designers developers um music creatives like anyone can can build these amazing products together are there any specific out uh be like outcomes uh in terms of I don't know materials documents that you like help them build in order to move to the next steps um yeah so the further end of the blue Builders program are are like incubator and accelerator program and so those programs are aimed at yeah helping people launch these Venture scale uh products and help them with their pitch deck help them with the whole um investment life cycle um a lot of that information really isn't uh publicized I would say it's kind of if you know you know um and so we're trying to again erase those barriers to that information and have um women people of color black and Indigenous people be able to have Equitable access to that information and that funding yeah I just give you a little bit of uh of a background on maker um the way we do it is uh well we dog food a lot of the of the problems that we have ourselves and we also try to gather from The Forum where the big pain points are for for other types of uh core units or contributors and then we try to see what will have the most impact and and yeah then we take it from there but that's a bit our our Discovery for the problem we try to keep it backlog uh even if it's not super up to date but U like what what problem should we tackle next and then being like seeing how the environment changes um we move it from there can I actually ask what what are some of the the top pain points that you have seen from people you've been talking to so it it it could be anything right like from the the governance process uh for example because most of people this is a very trivial example but a lot of people take uh two weeks of holidays uh in December we do not have a government governance cycle in December so if you want something approved it would take twice as long and every November I hate myself for not having modified that then January comes and say okay I'll fix it when I fix it and then I keep repeating that year after year uh so obviously it's not as important as other challenges but uh that's that's one of the of the examples that could be improved I can relate to that challenge it's it's a bit like feature freeze we have that as like software developers like this is your cut off line to get that that code integrated into the code base and yeah I can see that how that can be challenging yeah um I was wondering p in terms of uh once you match a candidate or a contributor with a with an organization how how do you make sure that uh like anything that's follow up do do you take care of that or it's like now you're on your own good luck yeah that's a good question um so we so the current stance is because it's like a small number of projects that we're supporting today um we are still pretty involved in helping to make sure that people are are unblocked as needed and um following up with the uh you know the responsible person on the organizational side to make sure that they're meeting with the person uh that's doing the work and giving them feedback and things like that but I think that this is actually um what we have thought about so what we want to build in the future um is moving to more today it's like you know I would say pretty centralized like very manual um what we want to move to in the future is building um a protocol that can help support a lot of this type of coordination um and one of the pieces of that which um we're it's we're so early in this so we haven't really like talked about it much or um even done that much investigation but is the idea of kind of creating these um support networks that are like decentralized networks of humans um because for I mean managing work is is a hard like something that requires I still believe at least this my my opinion I'm curious what both of you think but uh requires subjective human judgment and input it's not something you can totally automate or like have the Bots take care of and help like move through a pipeline um even if it's like arms length or in the context of a dow where you maybe don't have a manager um work still needs to be managed somehow especially if we're talking about complex projects right um and so that's something that we've been thinking about a little bit is how how could we build sort of these like decentralized communities of people that are incentivized to you know provide technical support and um evaluate the outcomes of work and uh and pro and help project manage um and that's maybe like a more scalable way that we can continue to provide that as a network um in the future but yeah so today it's still pretty manual and and our team is directly involved but yeah I I can relate to that um the way we um manage the kind of like the incentives for for maker is that uh any anyone could come and and request for money and create a core unit uh very permissionless Le uh and then the MK holders need to approve them um and uh what we realized after over a year of of that system um working is that it's very hard for Mk holders to direct the the work so it's it's very complicated to say we want you to work on this um so it was a bit up to each core unit to decide what they were working on um and then you get people frustrating on every uh well both sides actually um both the contributors and the bmk holders are frustrated so now we're trying to flip it and and go to the Project based budgeting um and yeah we're we're still trying to to get the details right but that's that's where we're where we're going yeah so for that is um The Project based would that still be something that maybe the foundation or some group of like core contributors is kind of Designing the projects or how how is that work management right so right now there's no there's no more foundation so it's just uh yeah we dissolved a couple years ago um and the the idea was we're tickling like tinkering with a lot of parameters but one of them would be to have like a retention like Universal basic income kind of thing so to retain someone for a year or so and then someone come like um or anyone actually but ideally like MC holders or delegates can propose like hey we would like to build whatever and then there's a bit of an RFP process uh where anyone can submit a project and then they would get the the funding based on on the Milestones on on the on the quality on their reputation Etc so that's a bit what we're trying to to work with right now I'm actually really curious about the like evaluation process of the the output in the product that the teams put out at maker like what does that look like um right now it doesn't have the greatest shape uh unfortunately um that's actually one of the main pain points that we're trying to to solve um so there's there's not a lot of structure right now so it's very I would I would say unfair So based on the on the noise that some accounts can create in the Forum uh some core units or some work would get more attention uh than others uh sometimes you have very complex uh products or Milestones uh or lack their off so it's very hard to to actually judge them um then there this the human part is also hard so I don't know potentially we were discussing like including like Anonymous uh voting or zero knowledge kind of thing to so so yeah there's a lot of ways of of solving it uh we do not have the answer yet um but uh yeah right now I think that it's very unfair mainly because uh it depends a lot on the noise that people generate around that um and something we've been seeing too is uh kind of like core units trying to stay below the radar uh so just keep I keep getting my money I don't ask for much uh I don't make a lot of noise so I don't get noticed uh so the the incentives are are not great yet so yeah working on that as well I would love to know that from your perspective as well which part like how do you evaluate like the teams and like the products that are coming out of your your organization yeah I think um well so because we're trying to build a system to help coordinate this for many different groups um some of what we have been thinking of our you know reputation definitely reputation is a piece of it um and we also uh I think I think it feels like there is some sort of tcid agreement that Milestone based um you know chunking up work into Milestones is one way to help drisk projects and sort of gives you an interim checkpoint uh to engage with the team and see whether the work that they're doing is kind of on track or not and give feedback and so on um but yeah I think we're right now it's we also don't have a great solution but I think it is um just you know reviews of the work that people have done some some sort of questions of you know like would you be willing to work with this team again like bidirectionally um things like that and starting to think about how we can collect some of that information into um yeah reputation algorithms and scores down the road I was wondering definitely in terms of the hackathon um proof of Concepts MVPs um how what's what's the ideal proof of concept or MVP like how how do you design for that in terms of developing a product that eventually might become something much bigger yeah I think um a lot of the hacker team that we bring on with blue Dow they come into it um as newbies to web 3 into hackathons in general and so they go into a 36- hour hackathon thinking that they need to build this like fully fleshed out uh product that you know works and it looks good um but I would say for for hackathons it's more about the idea and being able to present that idea in a way that's really engaging and interesting and to see how you can capture um your audience's attention with that idea um and so when when it comes to the product at a hackathon level it's really just about like can you click through like one user flow and demonstrate the basic functionality of of what you're trying to accomplish um and so for kiwe labs you know um that was a hack found project that we won with in eth Mexico City all we were showing was you know that you could view this little 3D model you could click through you could buy it transaction on the blockchain and like that was it but it's the idea of being able to um incentivize creators to put out really high quality work and to um you know yeah take power away from you know the big AAA Studios and put the power back into the little people that's what was really enticing and so um I think as well that's something that we'll focus on in our incubator and accelery programs is you know the idea is is everything and so you really need to solidify that first before you start building out all of these different features that you want um so that's how I see it I mean in terms of the MVP once you move move forward and you decide to pursue the idea um how how different is it and how much is manual and typing very very fast in the background and and how much is actual the the real product out there like like how far are you in the in the development of kiwi um yeah so right now we're kind of in the user research and building phase and so I think as well when it comes to a hackathon the features that you build don't necessarily correlate into like a real life product like because at a hackathon there's so many sponsor bounties that you want to integrate with you want to use polygon you want to use optimism you want to use this and that but in the real world you wouldn't necessarily use all of those things together and so there has to be kind of this undoing process as well is like you need to undo all of these you know features that you just threw in there to to sound flashy and really just focus on what the the user would want so in our case 3D creators what they want is a very easy to use platform to to sell their 3D assets and to be be able to engage a community and so that's uh a problem that we saw in like the game and metaverse creation industry is that a lot of these marketplaces they just focus on the assets themselves and not necessarily um the audience and the people who are really passionate about buying this art or these assets to bring into their games and so um yeah that's kind of one way we're we're solving that I'm I'm also wondering how far you are in terms of radios sorry can you say it again like how develop is the product in terms of uh how Dev is it a bunch of Google Sheets in the background and and uh it is actually not a bunch of Google Sheets in the background there is a database it's a centralized database but there is one um yes but we do have I think for the next um there there are a bunch of things we're experimenting with now which are which are pretty manual and I would say there is going to be uh a period of undoing and redoing as well when when it gets there yeah and in terms of the journey for the the contributor um how how do you manage that is it that anyone even Anonymous or pseudonymously could come in and and join or is it more like you need a profile how how yeah so um today it is you do need a profile um but that profile doesn't have to be attached to your real identity so you can be snonymous um I think one of the things that will be challenging or or interesting to see how it evolves is thinking about the reputation and how it plays in with um identity and and especially anonymity or sud pseudonymity because um there is value in auring reputation to an identity over time um and you know that's especially when thinking about in the work context right like you want to be able to show that you've done X Y and Z things in the past and that you people really enjoyed working with you um it'll make it more likely that you can you know win the next opportunity or whatever um and so that's something that uh is kind of interesting to think about you know so it maybe leans more into this like view of the future which is more synonymous where people might have like different identities and different contexts um but there still is some consolidation because it can be advantageous to have that Dy how do you take care of the blue hackers um sorry what do you mean how do I take care of them in terms of on boarding making sure that they are happy and and that they are yeah that they feel supported yeah I think for us because a lot of our programs are IRL they kind of just join our community they feel the energy they they see the talent and so I think that's one thing that we're a bit lucky for um people go on a blue hacks program with us and then they want to continue to contribute because they had such a good experience um and so for us taking care of blue hackers basically just looks like getting feedback from them in person but also through a survey um because we recognize you know we're not perfect people things can go wrong and so we just want to have a really um good overview on like what we can do better what what we can improve and what what is already going well um but yeah I think that's that's pretty much it and we we touched a little bit briefly on the Milestones definition I don't know if you can well you two can how how do you set any type of things that need to be done for the program to be considered successful is there any anything more concrete there or in terms of contributions yeah so right now we're using a really great platform it's called wonderverse so shout out wonderverse um we utilize verse to put up task and bounties for our hackers so again in terms of organizing people like it takes a lot of work it's like you need to fill out this form you need to do this this and this so um wonderverse makes it really easy for us to organize all of those tasks and to then also um incentivize our hackers to complete them so werse allows us to automate the the bounties and the token airdrops to our contributors and so any blue hacker or contributor that is uh working with blue Dow is able to be rewarded and quite an easy and automated way um and so they're able to kind of reap the benefits of of what they're doing and and their work uh directly in easy to see easy to see way but I'm I'm curious to see how you guys are trying to solve that problem as well yeah actually and that I was thinking of you know the sort of like the topic of this um panel and you know where do where do d fall short so I guess I was curious with what you just said like what sorts of tasks and bounties um Dow contributors are doing and if you are seeing uh for tasks that require or like projects that require some greater amount of context or continuity or anything like is is there stuff that just doesn't get that doesn't really work in that format and that you need to kind of use some some other format to get it done um yeah I definitely think there's a lot to be improved in terms of how we're operating right now we kind of bring on people who have that natural leadership skill already so they don't really need that much handholding but obviously we want to be inclusive of everyone um and so that's something we're definitely still working on but for example we have like an amazing uh blue hacks Program full of developers and so a task might look like um writing a tutorial to build a full stack dap for polygon or something and they would just you know submit that either article or even a video um through wonderverse and that would be the proof of their contribution um and basically that's how how it works yeah been searching into grants for for a while now um I think there are very good software that should be coming out soon or that it's already out there um but running a grant program is very very hard it's uh very timec consuming and sometimes it's not as rewarding so there there a lot of phases from attracting um contributors that want to participate to the ground to filtering them to setting all these Milestone so it takes a lot of work uh from the people managing the grants um so um yeah that so I think that's a huge challenge uh for for for a dow it's more like okay who's running the grant uh do they have the capacity to do it how are they going to do it and then anything that has to do measuring Roi so it's uh it's very easy to shut down a grant program and maybe some things could have value I don't know three five years down the line and and and you killed it just because he wasn't profitable from Day Zero so yeah it's it's not easy and there are a lot of challenges is ahead are you guys having challenges with um tracking ad hoc tasks so I I feel like Dows all Dows pretty much operate like startups and so you're wearing multiple different hats and so you know I may be leading the blue hacks team but maybe I'm also taking a Partnerships call and trying to get this organization on board with what we're doing um are you guys having any challenges with tracking those like ad hoc tasks that maybe don't make sense to to track and like a a bounty board or something like that so the way we really the work is uh through this core unit so it's more up to each core unit to track their task their contributors uh higher fire um so anything that has to do with with uh with task and uh so that that's on the side of the accountability but then uh something that we've seen happening a lot is that uh some like for example we don't have a marketing core unit so anything has to do with marketing it's like it's a bit everyone whenever you can and you're not really responsible um and there are a lot of tasks that kind of fall within the cracks and and and then it's hard to to actually address them um mainly because it's not your your area of expertise so tracking tasks we we don't do uh we have like more road maps that are that are a bit lar larger but then it's up really to the to the Token holders to to hold us accountable um which sometimes they do not have the bandwidth to to do as well so that's some some more to consider from the governance perspective is uh are the the token holders or the voters um do they have the capabilities to actually evaluate everything that we're putting sometimes it's a lot of voting U for very different topics in very different Industries so they need to have a almost a full-time team working for them to actually analyze each proposal if you want it to be successful and that's that's not where we're where we are right now um and I don't even know if if that's to be expected it's it's more like how do we solve this issue is is that the right way or not yeah I think it's really cool what maker down particular is doing because I think it's like one of the purest experiments and how do you build like a very hard protocol and keep it growing um without like a centralized company I mean Bas I mean yeah which is really harsh I think it's it's hard to count because as I was saying it's up to the each core unit but more or less we're like over 150 contributors in in maker so so um yeah I haven't checked the expenses but we're in the millions of of diap per year um so we're almost running into the problems that you would find in any very flat disorganized um organization I guess so it's um it's it's interesting to see how how we're solving it and we're working on that right now but uh it would take another hour or so to just get the basics so I I'll spare you the details yeah okay maybe maybe a topic for another time but I'm definitely curious how the core units also are formed and you know how do you onboard someone into a core unit I guess you know how do you find the right person to join and is is it very open or you know that um yeah it is quite open so it's it's permissionless in that sense and anyone can come uh for the last like year and a half we were running an incubation program um basically to help teams to navigate governance and so they're the best or well not the best but they're very good at what they do so we help them with every everything else um and yeah defining Milestones defining Mission Vision strategy uh so we we've been doing that for a while we orted several teams um but any any team can come and say hey we want to do marketing would be an an example we want to do marketing for maker uh we're requesting this budget uh we're planning on doing this this and this these are our credentials and then this would go into the governance cycle um and they would get voted in or not uh so that's a bit the the very high level view can I ask a bit about the the contrary what does the offboarding process look like so someone who's not maybe living up to to what they need to contribute to so right now we have this uh you you get update you get to update your budget every year uh so potentially they could vote you down and kind of like slowly Sunset you uh um for a lack of the word but anyone could come and propose hey I don't think that DNE is doing a good job uh we should haveo her like her and her team and cut every single uh fund um yeah we we have seen in the past that those uh proposals come from Anon accounts um so potentially there has there is some interaction to solve there as well in terms of um yeah how how people perceive each other and and do you really want to actively say hey I think that this other department is not doing their job properly so that's uh interesting yeah I mean for us we haven't really had to explore that that problem yet because I think people and I our da are like either really passionate about it and they continue to contribute or they just like naturally like fizzle off on their own and so that's probably a challenge that we will need to address in the future and so I will definitely be asking you about that we have two minutes left so I don't know if U you wanted to say something uh like any closing comments or remarks I guess maybe one thing that I would be curious to hear from from maybe we can all go around and say but it's just you know where um where is this sort of model of decentralized coordination doing really well or like what do we think is kind of the promise that it can enable I guess there's some obvious things but sort of C curious like what is your unique take on it um yeah um I think for us at Blue Dow the main benefit would be to again uplift underrepresented groups and so with our blue hacks program we're able to bring people into web 3 who would have no other means to to get into this space and so when you decentralize that process and be able to bring people from all of the all over the world contributing to one product you're able to actually um start setting up leadership ship teams in different areas and have them start building products for their communities and I think that's one thing that I want to see more of in web 3 is you know local communities building for themselves rather than you know conglomerates from other countries building for for them and so um that's definitely what I see as the promise of like decentralized product development yeah for me it's even larger um I think that remote work is like one huge form of leverage that a company can get and if you structure your organization properly remote work can give you like massive uh leverage to actually be much more effective um and at the same time if if you do not structure your company properly uh it will show when people are not showing up to the office uh and I think that the same thing will happen with decentralized organizations that because they're much more open and and and permeable once that you have a good structure and the good framework to actually be able to yeah to to handle the the in andout uh we're going to see again massive leverage versus centralist organizations that do not have these tools to to move forward so I'm I'm really excited about um about this all right we run out of time where can people find you uh so I'm on Twitter as Pua e I'm on Twitter as well daar and blue Dow with three instead of a e as well if you want to check it out all right I'm 0 X7 u4n so you serious good luck finding me thank you everyone thank