Decoding the Final Play: Unveiling Maker DAO's End Game | KBW2023

[Music] all right thanks for coming GM run I think we can just kind of right get right into it so I want to get deep into endgame but for the uninitiated let's start with just high level what is it and and where are we in the timeline of you know subow launching you know AI salana all that well I mean maybe the the even better place to start is is just reiterate what what what maker even is Right maker we're the oldest we're the largest Dow in the world uh what that means is it's basically a bunch of people you know using the internet using blockchain to manage the world's largest decentralized stable coin so like a currency Network that um is above like four 5.2 billion doll in circulation at this point 5.3 five yeah 5.3 yeah it's been growing a lot it's been growing like more than 800 million in the last month so it's growing a lot uh yeah it's it's it's massive um it's one of the you know crypto is quite down at the moment but uh maker is one of the projects that are very much going up and growing um but the problem is it's it's it's gotten so big that it's sort of hitting these scalability barriers and they're actually not like technical they're almost they're more like social in a sense or sort of um decision making barriers when it comes to to to being very large but still just like a network of people collaborating over the Internet so endgame is the solution that attempts to tackle this with a number of of different um tools the most important being the subd but then also as you mentioned AI tooling and and even um optimized blockchain backend improvements but really I mean uh these these long-term Solutions like the AI and the blockchain stuff is something that's really coming much later and right now in the short run what's really exciting on the subow uh because that's what is going to help us grow the ecosystem today and I think it's going to address a lot of the issues that that are we're seeing like right now so there's there's six subow uh and they're all launching kind of roughly the same time like and you want them to be you want maker core to aify slow down be kind of more you know anti fragile but you want these subd Dows to go off take more risk on board new assets Target new regions how much risk do you want them to take on how how fast do you want them to move like what you know how aggressive do you want them to be yeah I mean that so that's really the thing is really I mean in some right so the overall idea is called endgame right and that's exactly because it's all about let's find some final state that doesn't have to change so at the absolute core of it is this like you know Eternal ideal of crypto that it should be like Bitcoin it should just be like one particular way and then it never changes and then there's no drama there's nothing to fight about right and there's no risk of of the platform you're building on changing right so that's really the ideal state for for like any crypto system especially if you're just like thinking about it for five seconds you know and you don't think any further um then that sounds really easy to get to but then quickly you realize I mean the problem is we live in the real world so things change and the environment changes and there's new opportunities and there are new challenges and there are new risks uh and I want I'll wait with even getting into how much more sort of multi-dimensional that is when you when you're dealing with stable coins you know and and sort of real Advanced Finance on top of just this basic idea of just like things change subow enable that sort of Best of Both Worlds in the sense that the core gets to be completely I mean it gets to be a lot more locked down that it could possibly be otherwise without subd Dows right and that's because it can just say look any kind of adaptation any kind of change any kind of evolution will'll let that be handled by the subow and then to your point about like how how fast you to move how slow should they move that's the beauty of it is that there's going to be many of them so each of them gets to decide by itself right and then we see some of them will fail some of will succeed and those that succeed will be basically The Benchmark that new ones that are continuously created will then learn from and actually you know evolve even further from right meanwhile the failures uh are also going to be you know very important learnings essentially for the whole ecosystem to see this is how things can go wrong this is what happens if you go too fast and all of that can be well integrated for the whole ecosystem essentially right so in the end I mean yeah I guess the theme is really Best of Both Worlds right you get this flexibility of individual Dows individual small focused communities uh yet you also get um you know the scale of the entire maker ecosystem and you allow it to scale much further right we can break the scalability barrier go you know far beyond you know go from five billion to 100 billion easily if we're lucky um and in doing that you know these economies of scale that that makeer currently enjoy will just grow even further right and all of the subd outs will be able to to access it together and essentially share it while also act individually independently flexibly right innovate take risks uh sometimes even fail and it's going to be okay so we had a lot of failures in the last cycle we've got like a thousand Unis swap clones we've got like a 100 a Forks what's interesting to subow about me is like this is a new way of kind of just building defi protocols and it's all bootstrapped by D and the token economics and reflectivity of that what happens to defi going forward if everything is just you know maker effectively is is everything going to launch as a sub down now or or what's kind of the new paradigm of the new Builders who want to get involved in in defi do they have to go to the maker ecosystem what does that look like for them I think what we learned from the last uh last cycle the last Bull Run is that I mean defi is essentially I mean it's not just maker it's it's maker it's Ava it's Unis swap it's compound a couple of others uh and it was I mean that was kind of what we saw right that like you had this massive like defi summer this huge Bull Run and I I mean basically like Lio came out of it with and probably a couple of others as well that are that are that are major now but for the most part it actually just reinforces what I've always thought of of dows sort of from the very early days which is that they're just like a dow like a real da is a kind of a category of organization that is an order of magnitude larger than a company in the sense that you don't like you can't a dow that is like small isn't gonna well let me let me just clarify when I say Dow I mean the type of Da that like the sort of the defi oriented protocol da so I know there's many like different sort of shades of dows and and and uh and sort of ways to classify them so I guess the old school type of of defi DA they just have to be really really big and if they don't reach that size they can't they can't sort of sustain themselves they sort of just uh kind of fall apart I guess because there's so many like you need a certain size to have all of those sort of multi tool dynamics that enable a real community that enable decentralized governance and it's going to be functional enough to run something as advanced as a as a def5 protocol so I think that we'll see uh I mean so I think the subow model is how you can then take the scale that that these these top projects are at today and then just like take it to the next level right so I would expect that we will maybe see you know maybe there's still room for a few more I mean for sure there is actually right I mean definitely there's going to be someone coming out with some new amazing Innovation and it's going to like turn into like a real down it's going to reach the same size and momentum and Lindy effect as some of the other ogs but I would expect that over time you'll see the the subd down model everywhere for anything that I mean it's just going to be required to really grow I think uh and actually if you look at AA right um the go uh stable coin model has some like very significant subow sort of um Dynamics to it I mean in fact I was already I already deep into thinking about subow when they announc their uh design but it definitely like solidified for me that yeah this is totally this is like the Natural Evolution of things right in many ways the like if you really simplified then the difference in with maker subd Dows and then the Avo um I think they call them facilitators Le sub modules is that theirs is based on staking the native like staking the original token so it's like illiquid it's more sort of Il liquid and then what maker Subs do is they take that and sort of tokenize it so now it's not just you stake your tokens it's like you got an actual liquid uh exposure um and then there's I guess more freedom as well for maker Subs like they really are like let's you know unleash unleash the wisdom of the crowd you know let's really just like see what can be done with this um and and position the corve maker as more than anything else as this like infrastructure that just provides kind of like this General boost uh and then we'll see where the where the subd Dos go and that's going to be the most interesting thing right it's going to be them doing stuff that nobody's predicting at this point so another part of the maker end game is the Rebrand and the redenomination and I like people probably don't remember this but Chinese crypto back in the day ant shares branded to Neo and that was like a big moment it reset the community it kind of put them on A New Path what's the thinking behind the new brand I I know you've said in the past that maker is like you know too boring you want it to be new you want it to be exciting is how do you make that happen yeah so actually I think the number one thing uh that I think is so important uh and such a big opportunity with the new brand is just to have a single brand instead of two Brands uh cuz today it's it's die and and maker and I mean it was it was I mean it was basically something I made up like seven eight years ago Without Really knowing what was going on right I was sort of a crypto religious sort of uh you know like U crypto Anarchist and yeah so obviously it's a big problem when the brands are completely separate because I mean what happens is and actually not only they're totally separate but there's not even like a way to describe the ecosystem as a whole in sort of a way that encompasses both right the closest is to say maker di but then you're completely leaving out the die brand which is by far the biggest part of the ecosystem right uh and so what happens is there are so many Die holders out there they have no idea what maker is at all so we're like losing out on a lot of the really I mean what I think is actually the really really interesting sort of network effects that are possible with Defi and crypto which is this thing of like the user can be the owner right um yet most die holders they don't realize that if they want to not just use a product if they want to really be a part of operating it and keeping it safe uh then they can go and buy mkr but they don't know what mkr is so the new the new branding is doing I mean it's really m i mean it's really focused on this particular thing right we want the the user bases to overlap more we want to make it really easy to um go from adopting the stable coin uh and then also to get further into the ecosystem if you're interested in that and so there's two ways we doing this right so the first is to Red denominate the new mkr right so it goes from being this like I don't know what to call it like almost like elitist super expensive coin uh that definitely I mean attracts like there's it that the choice of having very few mkr coins did help attract some like I would say very sort of quantitative people but I mean it turns out crypto is also so much about kind of the community Spirit and the the the feeling of momentum the the excitement we kind of lost out on that to a large extent uh and that's what I say I mean that's what I'm I think makes maker feel a little bit more boring than like other communities and other tokens that are just set up to be more sort of uh accommodating to new people coming in so by having way more tokens so anyone can buy buy 100 tokens anyone can get easily 100 tokens a th000 tokens you know that's just a signal saying look there's opportunity here for you right we want you to join it does you don't have to be a super rich or Super Genius you know you can just have fun and try it out and to make it even easier when we we do this um Rebrand launch and I'll clarify the Rebrand part in just a second but so the the new brand uh when it launches early next year it will also launch with the ability to use the new stable coin to farm the new governance token so you can directly if you hold the stable coin you'll be directly be able to get the governor's token for free so you don't even have to make the choice to like buy it or anything you can really just say yeah I want the token for free I want to try it out and I think that's going to be another of these like make it a lot smoother to to get deeper in but I mean actually I really want to then really want to emphasize that of course more than anything else it's also just coming up with a better brand for sort of a consumer focused stable coin than d right because D again it was kind of like randomly made up basically a coule many years ago right and the new brand the goal is to engage top brand designers and brand strategist globally right that have proven themselves in crypto and in the real in in the real world you know and then be like let's figure out what is the absolute best brand that's going to like break the you know the crypto crypto bubble it's going to get out in the real world it's going to engage people and just bring people into crypto and make it easy to to understand why this makes sense as a something that's going to keep your money safe also something that's going to be you know more fun than normal finance and normal banking uh and then all these other sort of followon effects of the farming the the the the governance token the sort of the ease of going deeper I mean that is all just secondary to having just a really really awesome brand I see people posting all the time you know like nostalgic defi summer you know screenshots of like the the yams front end and all that Shenanigans and there is an aspect of subow farming where you can take maker and you can take dye and farm it and you can actually take the subow tokens and then Farm the new governance token like what's what do you want the outcome of that farming to be and you know is there some reflexivity in the system where it's like you're growing the D Supply by kind of this reflex model of farming and then you know bootstrapping Junior capital in the subow I mean so so the thing about the tokenomics is it's really right the tokenomics the basically the kind of the the programming the design of how the tokens are distributed how you can get the tokens for free uh how they are created and emitted right it's all um you know based on this idea that we're taking something that is just fundamentally well nowadays if I tell this to crypto people it's fundamentally simple eight years ago when we first came up with it it was like mind-blowing complex right but basically the the basic business model of a stable coin is relatively simple right you've basically got people holding the stable coin and that means now you can deploy collateral and you can earn yield from that collateral and the tokenomics of subow are essentially kind of in some sense it's just gamifying this really basic business model to something that's a little bit more Dynamic and it's more fun I would say when you when you've got you know more than just cash moving around the system you've got actual uh tokens that all have different sort of um you know sort of additional value to them potentially if the community is right if the if the the governance that they create is right but absolute basic core business model is still there of you know people basically hold this stable coin and then the system deploys collateral and generates yield from that and and the way that ultimately all these tokenomics of all the subd Dows all the tokens the way that is just fundamentally kept sustainable and sound and isn't some like you know uh thing that's going to create a bubble or or go to zero or something right so it is that when you choose to farm these tokens so whether it is the new governance token which you can choose to farm right like I said that you that's going to be available to farm immediately and then following from that the sub out tokens will be available um maybe in Q2 not making any promises you know obviously it's ready when it's ready but um Financial advice yeah but but um all of these tokens all of this all of these cool things they're mutually they're mutually exclusive when you you got to pick one of them right and that's kind of the game right is you got to figure out what's what's exciting for you to do right and one of the choices is just also the boring old die savings rate rebranded with a new brand of course um that's just going to give you a classic yield in cash so essentially that's what the that's how the system is is paying for all this toomics and and gamification of the ecosystem and parallelization of innovation and communities it's all being paid for again with the same basic old business model of the users are provid providing the stable coins the Dow deploys it for yield and then the Dow either gives a yield back to the user in the form of the die savings rate or the Dow takes that yield and uses it to finance essentially all of this tokenomics and provides you with yeah many different flavors of subd dows all the just the governance token of the Dow itself and okay one more point I want to make going back to the the new brand thing is that so this is all like super crazy for some people right I mean we're talking about many different tokens so much stuff happening um what's also really important about all of this is that actually Dian mkr like the old school old OG maker isn't going away either so it's not that it's getting like you know it's not getting changed and and it's sort of getting foed on the users that now it's called something else now there's all these like crazy things you have to think about it's an entirely optional choice to migrate to the new brand and essentially upgrading your die to the new upgraded die the new stable coin upgrading your mkr to the new redenomination new governance token um it's a it's an option that's available for those who want to try out the new features or maybe they just prefer the new brand um but many people are just going to be like I'm not I don't want to deal with you know I'm this is my stable coin I don't want you to mess around with it so we're not going to I mean nothing's going to happen to people who just hold die it just going to keep working as always same for mkr it'll just keep being the same thing and all the tokenomics and all that it's not going to apply to car and it's not going to apply to die it's an optional thing to basically upgrade and you can also always move back so you can always migrate back uh and and this will just be you know it's a key thing to preserve this so that there's not going to be any like uncertainty of fear of like what's happening is the rock getting pulled under the system or something basically the old system remains exactly the same and as I said the fundamental economics the fundamental business model is it's the same basic simple stable coin business model and then all of these new features are basically just added on top of it essentially as a yeah as a form of gamification as a form of parallelization that likely will really boost the ecosystem as a whole um you know but also isn't again isn't like changing the absolute fundamental sound economics of the system this is a very different maker than what I remember in you know 2020 2021 it felt like you guys were the uh the the stall work you know slower moving more safe you know and and this is entirely safe as well but like it felt like at some point you got reinspection because you know maker probably could have just sailed off into the sunset and been a smaller version of itself but this just feels so much more ambitious well I mean so I alluded to it earlier and I guess to put it mildly basically maker ran into scalability issues so the real I mean so it really was the realization that what you just said you know it could just sail off into Sunset B I mean that's what we always thought right we've been working on that for eight years seven years I guess at the time uh and it was s it was done in many ways right the mega Foundation had dissolved and the sort of the the project had fully trans ition to being run by the community nominally and what I realized is was just that it simply was not going to survive in this in it the state it was in because the governance was just it just didn't work basically like we had been too naive in uh it's like the classic crypto mistake of like build it and they will come just like make a voting system and then they'll like totally the free market will like figure out how to vote and figure it all out and of course that's not what happens like I mean it's like yeah it's such a you know it's like dumping a dumping a Libertarian Somalia you know just like what actually happens is just like this yeah like very uh you know if you really just give a blank slate and and voting and a lot of money then you get this like very Cutthroat politics and and all sorts of like very bad Dynamics so all of this stuff the tokenomics the parallelization the subow it's basically creating a like a framework right creating a a system uh a sort of a set of processes uh that can create some like boundaries create some stability and and then actually allow the governance process to to hit you actually sort of find healthy Dynamics right find a find a healthy way to work and operate so that people are naturally um you know pushed towards and incentivized towards interacting with the system and in a way that that um you know is mutually beneficial for the whole system right so we want to push people away from kind of trying to extract value from the system and push them towards taking actions that generate value for the system and which then comes back to them and I mean the most absolute basic uh Dynamic to to to use to illustrate this right is just like the basic concept of the sub out token and sort of compartmentalizing different types of decisions and risk and exposure to those decisions and risks right so in sort of the like in the O OG way like the mega monolithic Dow blob way there's so many decisions there's so many areas of specialization at the same time right it's like deep Technology Innovation super Advanced real well assets and different jurisdictions and it's like any particular decision that leads to success or failure in any particular area of the Dow it's just a sort of of a a drop in the bucket kind of like it's it's it it doesn't create enough of an effect that uh people will be sort of directly impacted by it so the motivation often is like just uh just do something so it looks good or whatever you know like just just uh yeah make the politics happy so it keeps going and uh and I think in particular it's like even if you pay people in token in this situation it's like even if they're getting paid in tokens and they're contributing to the Dow and and you know if they do work for the Dow that benefits it in theory that that can that can generate more value for them because they hold the token but it's just that token is such a small part of such a huge economic system that the value is like it's just they wouldn't they would never really feel that change in value you know yeah they did one good uh rwa deployment and that generated some money for the whole di but but what triggers back to them from the the tokens they're getting is is so small they don't like feel it um and then it becomes like okay I'm better off figuring out how do I just extract some value um with subd it's like now you like own like a huge percentage of of this right now you like have you know like I mean multiple percentages of um this entire sector of real world assets activity right and when you make a decision if you make like a home run on like one great real asset deal as a contributor in this situation having like a lot of tokens right I mean then that's going to that you may be able to retire you know like that's the sort of the the the startup dream in a sense right and so it just completely changes the dynamic right because now everybody who's in this already they're going to be like look if I make the right decisions that's going to really benefit um you know benefit me and I'm going to make sure that other people who are in it like this and are are are deeply involved in like the decision- making the execution they need to have the same mindset as me they need to also be in it for like let's make sure the subd is Success uh in again in the OG monolithic model these like broken political Dynamics often cause people to seek towards I need like loyalty I need people who support me politically and basically they'll they'll cover for me even if something goes wrong they'll they'll support me politically and then I'll support them I don't care about the skills I you know people think in politics right in this smaller scale situation people think in like results and execution um and it's I mean it's related to dunbar's number to to an extent as well right it's like is it your friends or is it a bunch of like Anonymous people who are potentially trying to extract value from you as well the analogy of dows where it's dropping a Libertarian in Somali is one of the funniest things that I've ever heard I was trying not to laugh out of respect but I mean one one question I have is like I read endgame and I thought it was very thoughtful you know like I see the cour team that you're working with now I think they're extremely talented it feels like there's like this disconnect between like the crypto Twitter set and like the actual progress that's going on in maker like like why is maker so misunderstood I wouldn't say maker is misunderstood uh in general because I mean most people get it uh yeah yeah but it is I mean it's such a funny um contrast right to when you open up Twitter and you're like your face almost melts and then you go to like event in the real world and people are so much nicer I mean this is what's happening is it's the same reason why like American politics are so broken and social media so broken right it's just like like so it's not it's not I would say it's not really maker it's Twitter that's causing this in a sense right like the the characteristic the maker has that's really bringing this kind of polarization uh out in in people right is that just it's a leader right so to me is always like the more people are freaking out and angry on Twitter that to me is always like H you know that's a that's one of the best ways to like measure results and measure we're doing the right thing because that's like that shows me okay now we are in the leading position like now this is where what people are caring about once they stop being pissed off all the time that's I mean and that was kind of actually what was happening sort of at the time and maker just were like not really finding its way right maker was sort of increasingly getting like being forgotten sort of buried under our governance drama and then everyone else being more shiny and more fun uh that was the time when like there was nobody was really criticizing maker at least not as much right now we're back in the leading leading position right trailblazing the space uh and I mean a lot of people are very passionate about crypto in general and then that means they need to have an opinion about us uh yeah and then I mean another thing is that maker really is is a real Dow the at least the realest Dow in the sense that you know uh you really get to see how the sausage is made right so uh one thing is that I mean that could allow people to then like dig in and actually try to understand how things really work but that's a lot of work you know it's a lot easier to like just find any part of it dig in and then find something that's a good you know uh sound bite on Twitter and then uh you know use that to whatever narrative whatever bias you've already got uh I mean okay so this is more than anything else this is really what happened with like the Solana thing I think right yep yeah so okay let's talk about that for a second so the reality is that maker is like I mean Mega I can't I can't claim we're like the biggest supporter of ethereum the private supporter you know ecosystem suppor of ethereum but we absolutely we're definitely one of the absolute biggest right so in the mega ecosystem today like I didn't even I I hadn't even counted this before but so right now maker is like actively incubating and supporting uh five different absolute Cutting Edge evm development companies right and all of these companies are I mean they're lit I mean the're maker developers right uh like we have managed to like scale up the amount of of these like you know Ultra talented developers um in a way that's you know even beyond what we've done in the past you know and and we're setting them up as like independent companies and a big part of Maker's approach to building the ecosystem is that we make sure that contributors that contribute to maker are also set up to contribute to the rest of the ecosystem right so we encourage these companies to go and also develop on other Dows on other protocols start their own projects on ethereum right and make sure they got all the absolute best-in-class tools and and and more important and tools the right culture and the right mentality and the patience it takes to build you know defy the right way and so and I mean today we've got five but that's only going to increase I mean our goal is just to keep expanding on ethereum just keep building out on the evm right especially Focus heavily on L2 because that's where we think the real you know potential for user for for growing the user base bringing in the new users is going to be right um and so the thing is the reason why it's possible was to have so many developer companies expand to all the l2s sooner or later right right now it's yeah like there's some announcements about uh also going to um uh you know polygon and nosis those are some announcements that were made for with with the spark subow is going to focus heavily on them right and oh and basically my point is so it's possible to do so many things at once because of the subd down model right so the the subd allows to not have it be the monolithic makeer call sit down and be like okay we'll go on this L2 and that L2 and this blockchain and like it's it's so difficult it's way too difficult to try to figure that out with just a single monolithic Dow that has to have its governance system set up to be able to actually stabilize a currency at global scale subd Dows that are set up to be flexible and and you know Risk Takers they can do this kind of stuff right so they can just I mean it's going to allow us to just just absolutely boost the innovation in ethereum spread to yeah like boost all the l2s right really be able to like move fast and and find partners and and find things to support in the ecosystem that is growing right and again it's like primarily it's going to be ethereum obviously because that's where it's all happening right and that's where maker currently is rooted uh and that's where um the subd is all focused on right um and so the thing is endgame is I mean step one of this is the early stage of endgame uh is all about kind of setting up this layer of like let's get it let's get the model started let's get the subd Dows working right let's get them focused on different things the community set up then the later phases as we get into things like the AI uh powered governance um and then also this thing the new chain backend system what we what we're trying to do is we're trying to take the sort of the beginnings of okay now we're going in the right directions and we're seeing the right things happening now we need to like optimize it right we need to make sure the governance really is robust and and keeps learning from its experiences and we do that with AI and and the ability to integrate as much data as possible so you don't need to have like a boss you can have a you can have the whole Community to me collaborating on on basically saving the learnings and the experience and then using AI to retrieve it um but the final step the thing that's really going to like kick this Dynamic into overdrive is making the underlying tokenomics of the subd which we are talked about briefly um just making that like hyper efficient so that basically as the tokens are being you know as users are choosing which token to farm as the tokens are being distributed in the ecosystem as they're sort of flowing back into the um you know the value flows back into the call the makeer call through the yield of the collateral the more we can make this um like what what because fundamentally so this is fundamentally there is some inefficiency in this right because we're taking value and we're constantly converting it from one form to another right so um there is some inefficiency in doing that conversion uh but with the right back end essentially right if this happens on the right type of marketplace and on the right type of computational structure then that inefficiency can basically be reduced to to effectively zero what that's going to mean is that means then the subes will just be I mean they'll be like they'll have all the upsides of all this stuff we've been talking about and they'll have none of the downside and so that means you know more developers more l2s more expansion into the ethereum ecosystem right like it's entirely net positive for the whole ecosystem system right um and uh yeah I mean again what's really happening is with back to the Twitter drama right what's really happening is people are down the down bad from the bull run right like people are hurting right because I mean we had so much hope for this space and we were we were left disappointed and it turned out that after def summer as I said what remains is still just def5 1.0 right uh so yeah there's a lot of emotions right and and uh yeah I mean people like to take something like this that is again right it's a big it's a very nuanced thing that's sort of Deep In The Weeds of of how we are trying to develop the whole ecosystem and then they use it to like push The Narrative of sort of like I guess numb their pain in some sense I mean I can't convince people that that uh they have to realize this is good for ethereum this is good for the whole space and and it's it doesn't make sense to be tribalist about whatever back end or whatever right what tech is it PlayStation is it Xbox let's go crazy about that right that nobody benefits from that uh but we can't talk a way out of that we can build a way out of it you know once things start coming back once we start seeing Innovation from subow we start to see new people get excited right uh you know we we we tell we we we come back with a new narrative to the outside world that look it's actually possible to do fun blockchain stuff and a lot of tokens and a lot of innovation without it all being a bunch of smoke and mirrors and it's going to blow up in your face you know we can do it safely and it's still fun and it's still Innovative if we get to that point then you know um people are going to see the light at the end of the tunnel and they stop you know they're going to not be so emotional about it anymore and I think we'll just get back to this you know the like the death of maximalism right that it's not going to be about this tribe or that tribe or this Tech or whatever it's going to be about the overall Network effect of the the entire ecosystem right the entire economy which is kind of like its own country or maybe even its own like continent or something like that right that's all benefiting from interoperability trade you know learning from each other learning from each other's Innovations uh once we're back in that mindset that's when we know uh the good times are are ahead yeah and if if you if you just look on chain you can also see it happening like you guys have real earnings power you're buying back the token you know the team is coalescing like I see you on Twitter seems like you're just you you got some swag now too it's like I saw a tweet this morning where you're like main main character checking in it's like you're ready to lead this thing I I love it um just on rwas so one of the things that you know is driving the growth of maker right now is the PSM kind of being refilled you know function of the die or the DSR rate but also just like more broad interest in switching from usdc to die what happens to the PSM in in the new version of uh endgame where is that like a owned by subow or it's like one of two subow where does that go cuz that's like a lot of the economics yeah uh so the the endgame is absolutely that you know this question of asset liability management or let's say uh liquidity like ensuring that there's liquidity and there's not going to be a bank run uh that responsibility is going to sit with a subow in the long run uh and maker will I mean because the whole model is this idea that that if the analogy is like maker is going to act you know as an analogy maker is going to act like a central bank right that's going to be the core protector of tail against tail risks right um but it's not going to be going out there doing stuff in the out in the marketplace directly so much right it's going to Outsource that to the sort of the analogy to the commercial Banks which are the subs right by setting requirements for their capitalization for their liquidity requirements right so basically Maker's going to say subd they get to you know they get to generate die from the coal and then they get to lend it out to users let users generate it in various ways um but as they do that they have to make sure that the die that they generate and the die they let enter circulation in the marketplace you know fulfills certain uh sort of regulatory boundaries essentially that ensure that it's liquid enough there are liquid stable coins that can back it but then also that I mean there shouldn't actually you know there shouldn't be too much liquidity there shouldn't be a bunch of like um you know uh uh just like uh sort of dead Capital doing nothing right so the stuff that isn't needed to provide liquidity should be out there generating yield you know building the global economy right proving to the world that crypto actually is a Force for good right uh and and so you know so that the call will also make sure that that's allowed out right and then what's so cool about it is then the subd they just get to basically they get they will have these very clear rules and and boundaries specified to them and then they can just go out and innovate right and they can figure out the best solutions they can learn from each other they can take risks uh if they do stuff that of oversteps the boundaries then there'll be like penalties for doing that right but then okay then they basically will have to pay the penalties and then they can just keep going and keep trying and overall they incentives and the boundaries are going to you know not be overly prescriptive right so there's going to be so much room for Innovation but there's going to be basically like safety bounds right so you can you know so the subdivs can innovate but they can't like accidentally innovate to blow up the system right uh that's uh that's I mean that's the ideal Dynamic I think right and it's really it's analogous for how like a well you know a well-regulated free market economy works in the real world right you got to have those good boundaries uh and then as like then you stay away once the good the right boundaries are in place you let you know that's when the free market can perform right and that's what we're going to do with subow but just you know supercharged with blockchain Community tokenomics AI the whole thing you know it's going to be glorious I mean this is the Sci-Fi stuff that I got into crypto to participate in and a future where you know there's a 100 billion of D and it's being controlled by AI governance and it's almost like this as an analogy a central bank video game is is that kind of what you see is is the future or or is there anything kind of Beyond there any any even higher aspirations even though those are pretty lofty I yeah know I can't uh I'm not capable of uh sort of uh hallucinating that far I guess but yeah but I think that you know I think that uh like to youell you WR the video game thing I think you could think of it also as like everything is like tick toying in a sense right so I do absolutely think that this is I mean this is just happening across the board right so and and actually the the most important and most impactful place it will happen is the financial system so I guess we're we're going to be a first mover in this and we're going to you know really really make sure it's gets done the right way because I mean when I think about like ticktock banking it's mostly it it sounds pretty bad so we're going to make sure that we get off to a good start right and and uh we sort of set the right um you know set the right standard and ultimately provide the best alternative and really just I mean if all the other stuff goes in the down the dark path of of the dark Tik Tok fire or whatever you were going to call that then uh I mean Mega will be there to make to be the the place where everyone should go I love it well we're out of time run thank you so much and thanks for coming thank you [Applause] everyone