Blockchain, Sustainability and Social Innovation

[Music] hello everyone i hope you can stay for uh the last session of the year of today's edition and also the last session of this year and i am joined for by a group of professionals and i look forward to learning more about social innovation sustainability blockchain marek you'll be moderating the session so the stage the stage is yours hello everybody welcome once again to the last and the closing session of this wonderful european blockchain convention today i have the pleasure to moderate this last panel on sustainability which has been one of the cornerstones of this conference this year and we've had some really great sessions earlier during previous days related to green bonds circular economy corporate metawares and supply chains and today we are closing this conference with a panel dedicated to sustainability social innovation and anything really related to uh sustainable development goals and how blockchain can empower implementation of those and i have three great speakers here today so um i will allow you to introduce yourself and welcome to the to the panel martha vese and simone and this if you could say just a few words about yourself who you are what kind of company you represent what's your professional background so that the audience can be more familiar with you martha can you please start sure thing and apologies for not being on video my laptop just decided to randomly do everything possible and for the last 45 minutes is not interested in connecting to internet uh but if you want to know how i look like my linkedin photo is fairly accurate also there are a bunch of recordings of me on the internets uh my role is in general anything that has to do with community building and just general decentralized autonomous organization uh design so i work with uh startups and with companies and communities most importantly to help them grow design contribution pathways and other opportunities to create ecosystems i've been around for quite a long time did a bunch of work with open source communities and projects like the linux foundation and hyperledger was director of ecosystem for five years uh and currently i'm working with various quite interesting startups uh in the d5 space yeah thank you aves can you continue everyone and and merrick thank you for having me that's been a fantastic conference and and very excited to discuss uh different sustainable sustainable opportunities as well as sustainable development goals on on this panel and some of the opportunities that we have to build as an ecosystem again my name is wes geisenberger i'm the vp of esg and sustainability at the hbar foundation the hmark foundation is an organization meant to grow the hedera community and drive adoption of hedera hashgraph which is an enterprise public network that focuses on all sorts of different use cases everything from gaming to d5 to sustainability and the hr foundation was actually created through a grant uh the hedera ecosystem had for us basically funding for ecosystem growth and that grant at the time was for uh five uh five billion usd when it was allocated and a large portion of that went to the hbar foundation and a large portion of that is focused on sustainability it's one of the main goals of the foundation and what we're doing is looking at drive adoption of the hedera network for things like carbon offsets for carbon emissions measurement and creating markets to facilitate transactions of uh netting those processes out but it's not just in the carbon markets it's looking at everything from supporting natural world use cases supporting different social equality use cases or things like water rights and we're building out all of these use cases and applications on hedera through this fund and we're working with grantees who want to come and apply to the hpac foundation which i encourage many of you to do to look go to hbarfoundation.org and apply and what we're doing is we're evaluating different ways that we can apply funding to grow the adoption of the network to support all all these great entrepreneurs out there all these great folks who want to participate in the community and build on distributed ledger technologies like hedera and making that really easy to consume and so my background personally is i spent a couple of years at hedera from open access when the network was available for anyone to use um all the way through earlier this year when i jumped over to the h park foundation to continue that uh continue that goal of driving adoption of patera and before that i spent about six years at oracle focusing on a lot of different emerging technologies and public benefit use cases wonderful thank you and simone yeah hi hi everybody and yeah like i said before thanks a lot for having me for inviting me mark i'm simonia cornero i'm the ceo and co-founder of flexi dao flexido is a cleantech startup specifically in the energy sector based in amsterdam netherlands and barcelona spain um myself i'm an energy engineer as background so i all my all my all my background and previous experience has been in the energy sector with focusing on energy markets but also energy management for for companies for for smes and also large companies and i got closer to blockchain around 2016 when i was working as a research engineer at the university of ku lobin in belgium where we were studying blockchain indeed for the application in the energy sector and well then here we are today my company is flexidao essentially what we do is that we we sell and provide large companies um software as a service solution to help them manage and monitor their carbon free energy sourcing in a nutshell and most likely we'll explain later but a carbon sourcing clean energy is actually quite complex because how how do you actually prove that an electrode is green or gray that's basically impossible with that basically it's impossible physically impossible that's why there's actually a market environment environmental environmental commodities that sits on the side of the power market where companies buy and sell electricity and these parallel market environmental commodities it's where companies and energy suppliers use and trade these certificates to prove eventually that you're consuming carbon free energy and this system we believe it's pretty updated so actually our long-term vision of our company is really to create the 21st century generation of these environmental commodities and that's uh that's that's our vision and that's what uh what i will bring a bit uh into this panel so blockchain for environmental commodities very focused on on the energy sector very interesting um i represent ikea i'm the moderator in this panel but on my daily basis i work for a new business unit at ikea called new retail business specifically for the team called clean energy services and blockchain is one of the technologies that i support internally at ikea therefore i have also been involved with european blockchain convention for two years now and let's kick it off so first of all topic of sustainability is is really a broad one and an important one and i think close to many people's hearts so where i wanted to kick it off is actually with the sustainable development goals that are quite commonly known by by now there are several of them and a lot of corporations are are referring to them in their own strategies so i was wondering if you look at these um sustainable development goals uh which one do you think are closest to where you are today um with regards to implementing uh distributed ledger technology uh in in making them come true and maybe marta i'll start with you uh um i'm really curious to hear your perspective on that sure uh thank you so i think that uh one of the biggest or my biggest focus right now given that i work also with the sovereign foundation is uh bringing identity to the um 3.7 billion people in the world uh who do not have any identity and uh that's why they are also um [Music] and get any social benefits they can't get any political discussions they also are just they are nobodies so i think that blockchain has an incredible opportunity to create a identity system that has nothing to do with a paper that has nothing to do with your country of origin or who allows you to have an identity or not it belongs to you as a as a human of course there are a lot of issues with it when it comes to understanding cultures understanding how can different governments agree to using a uniform identity system and how can those systems be recognized in various countries uh but ever since i joined the i id 2020 movement uh in new york the united nations uh i think it was like five or six years ago uh i strongly believe that there is a way for us to create a uh an identity system that will be applicable to everyone in this world couldn't agree more i think for us in in the western world it's a little bit an abstract topic you know not to have your own identity but if you spend some time you know in other developing countries if you could travel to places like you know like africa india and and other you know smaller less developed uh parts of the world you really start to understand that the pain and the challenge these people go through and um maybe um i could give the voice now to simone and and and ask you which which of the um the goals sustainability development goals uh feel closest to your heart and the work you're doing with flexido yeah yeah i mean i think that from the from my introduction the answer is quite straightforward it's definitely the number seven so ensure access to affordable reliable sustainable and modern energy for all so that's definitely our main focus i think we we also touch upon a couple of other ones like nine and thirteen but really seven is our focus and there we like the work that we're doing there and why i believe that a blockchain by the dlt is is a very good technological feedback needs to be achieved is that today as i was saying before the market of environmental commodities in the energy sector uh is is updated uh it it was set up around 20 25 25 years ago when really the objective was to bring online as much wind as much solar as possible uh however now we're in a situation in which we also need to start caring of when we consume so the the audience is not for sure energy savvy but you can all relate to the fact that it's not always sunny it's not always windy and batteries are expensive uh society apparently doesn't like nuclear and biomass is also not not sorry um geothermal is always not there so it's very hard to have reliable constant renewable carbon free energy so we need to find a way that can provide price signals that can provide incentives to companies and consumers to actually consume vendor severability of renewable energy and today environmental commodities don't do that because they are they have they are annual they are an annual attribute so it's it's it's worked for the entire year so you can and this happens today in the market you can be in spain you can have a green turret from any retailer you have and they could be selling green energy to you and what this means is they are buying a renewable certificate from norway that was maybe produced from hydro in in january or february and you are consuming in november so there's really no correlation whatsoever to when and how the consumer consumes and what kind of proof the supplier needs to provide in order to say to you that it's green and it's carbon free so we want to change that and it's called 24 24 7 carbon 3 energy movement it's actually spread headed by google microsoft er the us federal government two days ago announced that it would be it would be procuring 50 of its energy on a 24 7 carbon fee basis so 24 7 means making sure that you're consuming carbon free not once a year on an annual basis but every hour and that it needs to be local it needs to flow to you so this of course requires an absolute change in how you design these environmental commodities and how you trade them how you implement them how you claim them so this is essentially the work that we do and we strongly believe that fungible and non-fungible topians are a perfect fit to do this because you need to pinpoint in time and location a certain volume of renewable energy and assign attributes to it what was the carbon content of the grid in that specific moment in time so you really have the perfect technology to resolve the needs that it's out there how do i have a scalable infrastructure that can allow to trade and and trace and have verifiable claims on all of these thousands and millions of data points because imagine just europe how massive the grid is and how many injection points there are and how many of taking points there are so this is essentially what we want to do with flexi dial what we're doing it's the biggest ecosystem it's not only us and i think it's very it's it's very exciting but also very challenging because we are bringing blockchain to a sector that is many times very legacy oriented and very regulatory driven where there are experts of energy not many type of ict and definitely not a blockchain so it's been challenging to reconcile the two things but definitely definitely very exciting so we really hope that we can that we can make a contribution to to this uh to the goal number seven when it comes to this to this topic yeah very clear vision and very inspiring thank you and finally vas i'm so happy to have you with us because i mean you do represent the technology layer um hedera which is a network built on hashgraph consensus protocol is has a very clear role in this ecosystem and you've been there for a while and the foundation that you represent in the session today has also clear goal so where does it resonate with you and the work you are doing uh thank you thank you merrick yeah it really resonates on a lot of different goals but you know we've spent a lot of time focused on seven nine and thirteen very similar to flex a dial and uh making it easy to build in a way that um measures actions against these goals so very similar to flexi dial we've created an open source model um it's actually called the guardian it's out there on github folks can go experiment um with this technology and it's it's really agnostic of say a wreck in the case of a mega watt hour measuring energy or a financial byproduct of the energy or a metric ton in the case of a carbon offset or a carbon emission and it's taking a policy or a methodology that can be used really against any of these goals and looking at the outcomes that we drive in a very transparent way in a fully auditable way and really using the benefits of a public ledger or public blockchain and our goal was to take some of these uh different unsustainable development goals and really focus on a good example that we could drive measurable outcomes and get the trust trust that blockchain provides at scale and that's what hedera is really good at it's taking assets that could be tied to real world events um like assets coming in uh talking through the energy grid maybe a solar solar inverter that talks every five seconds as an iot device to the rest of the grid or to a public network like hedera's and has its own set of public and private keys just like any individual who has a wallet would these devices can have identities and wallets it could even be an individual who's measuring um something on a farmer taking a picture and sending a hash to a public ledger to report as part of a methodology that adds up as part of a workflow to create an asset that's tradable and the thing we can do whether it's with energy or carbon offsets is give a path to share our progress against these goals and to make it highly measurable in a completely decentralized process and so whether it's working with the energy grid or creating a carbon offset or measuring a mission we have folks who are authorities and today you know there's non-profits that are registries for these these wrecks or offsets since they say i'm going to organize this i'm going to create a process and a methodology and i'm going to have folks who go out and verify that maybe a farmer is measuring a soil sequester in a field and all the documents are filled out and following that same process an auditor may come out um and have another identity and attest that something may be true until we add up a bunch of steps and get to a desirable outcome and that's what hedera's focused on is enabling this for all the application builders and and creating the easy-to-use tools for those folks to build faster and achieve these unsustainable development goals faster and so we see folks doing this a lot in this carbon offset or renewable energy credit space as well as emissions measurement but we do have folks measuring water rights as another example or we have folks measuring um supply chain data and giving farmers access to liquidity for providing that data a good good example is what suku omni is doing if you go to suku.org you can learn more about how they're enabling better access to financial opportunities for the farmers but also providing better data and those that those data points can be used for a multitude of these goals and at the hbar foundation we're providing partnerships for the goals and financial access to help achieve these outcomes and so i i do like to focus on 7 9 and 13 but we focus on many of them and yeah i i'd be happy to talk to anyone in the audience about how we can help achieve these goals and go into going to depth underneath fascinating fascinating and i think we've all seen that sustainability has grown uh to becoming actually a public debate right now you see young people walking in the streets protesting about the the old way of living and consuming this world and i think it's it's much more than just corporate you know motto uh it's close to people people's hearts and uh i think uh we all need to move together uh to to actually bring a change to this world that's also where ikea is very committed to um you know with our people and planet positive strategy and we we strongly see distributed ledger as the one of the technologies that could be the backbone of uh you know more sustainable world and more fairer world um but then coming back to you martha and interesting things you've said in the beginning about you know also identity communities individuals i mean you've had you know tremendous experience in this space um coming you know through one of the most interesting companies and and projects um out there such as you know block stream or or hyperledger you've worked with different technologies uh now looking back you know through all those years you've been in the space uh is there anything you um think is uh worth mentioning in this session as as an example of something you know important inspiring uh with regards to how people are using this technology to strengthen the the sustainability um anything you would like to share with us yeah um i mean it's interesting having been in in blockchain and first in bitcoin and then like broader permission blockchain space uh for whatever six or seven years now it's interesting to see how we are shifting our attitude from this is really cool let's just apply it to everything um to now oh wait actually how can we make things better and how can we leverage a new technology to fix problems that are just things that we've always struggled with and i think that some that's something that really attracted me to general purpose blockchain and to to all of the permission blockchain space was looking at um solutions around uh sustainability uh around uh provenance tracking a food supply chain is a big one uh provenance of drugs as well as in pharmaceuticals and making sure that we can track those so all the things where we have a lot of actors that uh potentially can be competing with each other or are wouldn't naturally uh trust each other that now can collaborate on making the world world a better place and solving for the issue general world issues uh i would say that this is something um for instance right now i'm working on a project with with a company around sustainable food supply chain and one of the things that they are building into their uh product is ability to microtip the farmers so imagine buying a pack of uh your coffee and appreciating the fact that the coffee that you buy always comes for your from joe the farmer and you know joe's story and you can just like transfer 10 cents for every pack of coffee that you buy directly to joe and not to sam who produces someone else's coffee no directly to joe i think that's that's really great because it brings the sense of kind of connection to your food to your suppliers and also gives you a sense of responsibility for whatever you're buying and you know of course we are all told that we should be shopping local and getting supplies from our local um farmers and so on but effectively it's not always possible but being able to be connected to to those food suppliers is very valuable similarly when we look at um energy consumption one one of the projects that i think i shared with you uh previously is um done by a friend of mine who is working on um being creating solutions for people who want to get credits and want to build their credit scores but are not in a traditional banking system and what that company is doing is they are giving out uh solar panels that connect to the grid and kind of collect the energy and give it back to the grid in countries like mexico in south africa in general where it's very sunny so you put those panels in your uh garden or in your house and then you can actually purchase tokens in the local grocery store that allow you to unlock some of the energy that those panels collect and use them for your house so now by con consistently purchasing those tokens and to use for your energy you build out a credit score you prove to the local cooperative bank that you're able to at least pay those whatever two dollars a month for your energy supply and that builds a credit score that then you can use for uh building uh your business uh another one is done by kiwa that's that's a fairly big project where you can apply for micro credit uh to build out your company and it's a little bit like with crowdfunding but here you found particular businesses um that are it's a completely non-profit uh organization you you as a participant fund direct projects in direct micro entrepreneurial stuff if you will and these people once they raise their you know 10k or whatever it is build their business and have it have to pay it back to the non-profit that then utilizes for other people so me by providing whatever 50 bucks to that system i now can continuously you know give money to various products and various projects and people who want to build their career so i think that there is a lot of um interest in really using this technology as something that allows us to build sustainable and very um long-lived uh projects rather than just solving for the most immediate issue which is what usually like you know machine learning or ai does the difference between blockchain and any other modern technology for me is that there is a lot of focus on how can it actually change their world and make world a better place yeah i especially like the fact that you mentioned um connecting the local with the global which i think we have been suffering from for quite a while now that we are we as time goes by and our civilization you know moves on we as human beings are are like it feels like we are being more and more separated from one another and i really love the the farmer tipping uh example but best uh i would like to go back to you now because i i think in in your position at the foundation uh you see a lot of interesting inspiring projects where you know at the intersection of social innovation sustainability and dlt and things are happening people are really uh changing the world what would you bring as inspiring interesting examples for the audience to follow yeah so i think there's a lot of different opportunities that we you know that we get to work on at the foundation just because of the folks that were breadth of organizations we're working with and in the sustainability area it goes all the way from supply chain opportunities where um is the example i mentioned where the farmers are able to actually earn tokens for providing supply chain data that they otherwise wouldn't have access to and it also has a benefit of higher transparency give that data and they can take those tokens and maybe take them to a d5 pro protocol and access liquidity or so they can go buy more goods that's one example there's other folks like dobu uh dovu.earth which are that are working with those farmers that i mentioned and um dovu's actually taking the methodologies that normally live in the registries and they're democratizing them in a way to take that calculation to work with local organizations and create carbon credits to sell in their marketplace which which launched yesterday i really encourage folks to look at the different type of farm projects that are in both bulgaria and the uk and they're expanding i know they're looking to expand every day and i know they're working on a bunch of different projects around the world and they're basically allowing farmers to follow a methodology and add extra steps in the process so that they capture additional carbon um and they get rewarded for that in the carbon offsets that they earn and then as they're sold in dobu's marketplace they're able to get paid in a way that they formerly could not but they also are actually helping sequester carbon so it's helping the planet as well and so it's a win-win where the farmers have access to liquidity but also are um taking actions that they otherwise wouldn't um in a way that's durable it's not going to go away over a year it's something that usually is a 30 plus year program and they're able to make sure that they're capturing carbon and it's not having things like leakage where the farm next door is emitting carbon um you know just you know in in a way that uh could could sometimes happen in certain types of projects so it's very publicly auditable all done on hedera that's another another way that we see a really big benefit and we have folks doing the opposite of that where they're actually accounting for emissions not just capturing carbon they may actually buy credits from companies like dovu or they make go to companies like flex it out and say hey uh i want to measure you know all the energy that i'm consuming or maybe measure the renewable energy that i'm creating that show that i am actually proving uh carbon free energy and they're all doing that on hedera and just the piggyback off of what market was saying they're actually doing this all with decentralized identifiers and identities whether every step along the way both the devices and the organizations or the people involved have these identifiers that get credentials and so whether it's an inverter that has a device that's been certified by another party they're all following a process that's totally auditable on a public ledger that creates a tokenized economy and exchange of value with you know as we measure emissions or create offsets or in the process of maybe even reporting farming data they could actually be creating uh offsets as they're planting cover crops but also reporting uh the cash crop information through companies like suku so we see a lot of great opportunities in our ecosystem and just looking forward to seeing the community grow as it's already taken off so quickly i can just tell you listening to you i i heard in the back of my head the the word education education education like coming back because i just realized you know how many of the things you mention are are a novelty to to people not only on you know corporate side but think about users so events like european blockchain convention and the european um blockchain school that daniel and victoria are are building i think are so needed you know to bring this knowledge to people teach them how to use this technology and and build you know easier access to um to wonderful things that that all these teams are are working on and simona coming back to you i mean you've worked with some of the biggest brands you know global brands with your technology and your your dlt concept at flexi dao um what inspires you when you work with with these big international brands and and you know what is interesting to mention you know how they approach the the topic of uh dlt at the intersection with sustainability yeah with a lot of complexity they approach it no it's a so i think that for us it's i guess many can relate to that but like our value proposition even without blockchain would need a lot of education uh and convincing companies that actually measuring and tracking on an hourly basis is much more accurate when they can just not do it and be better off anyway so generally speaking it's it's hard but at the same time we are after we started pitching this in 20 late 2017 and it was six months ago that google uh publicly announced its 24 7 camera free energy goal that would like it was like a game changer for us recently we act we now we're working for example with microsoft with a few other data centers and i think one one of the flagship projects we had is that microsoft is procuring uh renewable energy from a wind winch wheat farm option wind farm in the netherlands we run for their data centers there and actually we are creating nfts that are backed both to the production metering date of the wind farm and the guarantees of origin that the actual data regulator creates and back to these we are creating the nft and then we use to track and prove to microsoft that they're actually um consuming if they are consuming a renewable energy every hour because in the end you're not green every hour that's the hard reality so i think that we are finally managing to to bring blockchain and dlt to the energy sector in a way that actually makes sense and that is actually needed and of course there are a lot of challenges right because they were saying before the part of education is as you said it's a it's very important and we we're just getting started but in the end uh today we're very exciting of having like companies like vodafone microsoft google are mountain right really focusing on this and and actually transacting on these hourly hourly certificates and i think it's just a matter of time that everybody will eventually agree not just as blockchain nerds that it is the best technology to do it there's there's there's no there's no there's not i don't i think there's not even debates actually and i really loved how you brought nft into this discussion uh down to the real utility level of what nft is because nft for a lot of people today must be something you know art related very you know sexy or very creative of the in the end it's just you know it's the utility that absolutely it's the biggest value itself again it's an nfd marketplace in the end right i mean and that's you i think what simon said resonated with you because you you've asked me here in the chat you would like to add something to this yeah absolutely and i think i think focusing on nfts here is important because this car uh carbon that's being produced in case of brown energy or in the case of green energy where you're taking something like a wreck that's being created is absolutely non-fungible it's unique to the time it's unique to a location in the case of a carbon offset we could have different attributes i mentioned before additionality or durability how long is it something being stored um is it permanent or not not so permanent and is there going to be an attribute you know that maybe we want to account for like leakage is saving something here causing you know for example in the energy space is consuming this energy forcing someone to uh consume brown energy elsewhere is there some other effect that we want to measure and every megawatt hour in the case of simona's work um you know is non-fungible and you know maybe the emissions might be a little bit fungible in the case of a specific site but it gives us the opportunity to understand at a very granular level how things are matched together when we create these markets and we've actually been doing a lot of research on how to match the supply and demand in the case of either energy or carbon offsets um between uh semi-fungible or non-fungible assets we're working with a great company called block science who's done fantastic work um dr michael sargon out of the university uh vienna um as an example on what we call the practical theory of fungibility and really taking these really non-fungible assets that in the past we've had to treat um as commodities you know for what they truly are which is a non-fungible unique unit and taking all the data that previously wasn't tied to them into a shareable format that is viable and sellable with real liquidity because if we do it on a public ledger of course anyone can search for them search by the metadata just like you can search for a piece of art that may be green brown or blue you can search for a megawatt hour if it's in belgium france or luxembourg and you can decide you know well i really you know going back to simone's example i don't want um i don't want a renewable energy credit from scandinavia if i'm not in scandinavia that doesn't doesn't make sense if i want uh renewable energy credit from my local my locality if i'm in barcelona i should be able to get one and it that really matters in the case of offsetting it makes it relevant um and it makes you know if we're matching hour by hour um it has to be non-fungible because otherwise it's very difficult to pursue this and so as we're doing this research we're looking at how can we take concepts of matching these multiple attribute assets which are non-fungibles together um or semi-fungibles to non-fungibles and understanding how we can take concepts from defy to buy and sell and search these assets and a lot of the work we're doing at hedera is and with the guardian is taking attributes and capturing them in the workflow and creating these non-fungible outcomes uh in the form of tokens that are auditably linked for complete transparency of the asset to the data that's already on a public ledger already surfaceable understandable and discoverable in a way that previously couldn't be done without blockchain so simona detective your comment i really believe that this yeah this absolutely can't be done without blockchain i would say without a public ledger but i'd be curious to get your thoughts on unfairness because when we start to get to these assets that are being produced on chain um one of the things that we spend a lot of time on is understanding well how do we compete if it's too lar a large corporation versus maybe me with a solar panel on my roof and submitting a transaction and understanding will fairness of you know when i submit the transaction do i have fair access to the ledger because not everyone understands blockchain and understands how to submit a transaction especially in the utility space but then how do i know that the transaction went in the right order or how do i know that i pay the right fee and um you know how do i know that my time stamps unique and a lot of these a lot of blockchains have blocks that you know so a leader can manipulate the order and how do we handle this uh maybe i'll uh america if you don't mind me directing questions simona you know that's something that i i'll be curious to get his thoughts on as well that's i think something that would lead us to a super interesting but very long discussion uh and i'm looking at the timing here with two minutes uh before the end of the session so i don't even want to open this uh you know field but it's it's very exciting and uh i i bet we can find a good platform to continue um the discussion but really to close the the session there is a lot of noise about sustainability and esg you know this is good blockchain this is bad blockchain and and you know you you should not do this you should not do that and there are also a lot of you know fake announcements let's be honest you know a lot of people are using this this hype wave to to deliver something that doesn't really work how do you stay you know sober in in this noise how do you know where your true north is could you recommend to the listeners and the audience of this last panel of today's uh session uh anything you know like a platform a person a speaker or an event that they could follow to learn more and to to build their own unbiased knowledge about the space and what's going on and martha maybe i will ask you first i think just your own brain and reason really don't follow anyone religiously because people change their options and and get disengaged and there's so much movement that it's impossible to to cover it all i actually think that one of the the next big things that need to happen is building a platform that aggregates all of the information and allows you to have like an objective overview of what is happening but we don't have that really so be cool and don't don't get crazy about any trends is my only advice really okay simone yeah maybe since martha invest who will mention a lot we can can say a lot about blockchain uh energy which i think that for 99 of the world it's just like turning on and off a switch and what happens behind it's completely unknown which is actually i think the most amazing machine that humankind has ever built the power the power grid and the power market so i usually listen to tupac as the energy gang and also mit at an energy initiative podcast that i think give a nice easy angle to whoever wants to to understand and i really also encourage everybody when you when you contract a green tariff why your sockets didn't change your the coal or nuclear or wind power plant that was next to your house didn't move so what what changed and like really try to go a little bit deeper go beyond the marketing understand and here i think these two podcasts could help you really understand how the environmental commodity market works behind and really try to support companies that in the end are really building renewable energy where you are in your community that's a thing should be the the ultimate goal and understanding such a complex machine i think these two podcasts could could give uh could could be helpful thanks and wes yeah so i think there's a lot of great uh a lot of great areas to get information but what i would say is focus on um especially within sustainability focus on the outcomes that are happening and measurable in the real world that are fully auditable you know a great example we're going to go into this a little bit later today for folks who want to learn more about some of the applications on hedera and the twitter spaces with dobu dot earth so it's at dovo official or at the hbar foundation to join maybe twitter spaces in a few hours but look at the projects that are operating out there in the real world that are being very very honest and open about the measurable outcomes and you know look for things like listening to farmers listening to utilities uh and making sure that you can see their transactions out there in a publicly audible way that's the easiest way is understanding the information for yourself and saying wow this is you know this is measurable and not just a token not just something that's being traded with a high price but all the information out there behind behind that token and what went into it and i think that that's always a good way to understand the context around the assets that we're always talking about amazing so everyone else listening to us feel free to follow these recommendations if i could bring one last name before we disconnect a person that inspired me most in 2021 was probably michael saylor out of microstrategies with great engineering insight into how distributed ledger works and and especially about bitcoin so i will hand over the voice to the studio now to daniel um and thank you for your time and thank you for this great uh session we need a session to answer to wes huh yes we do we please we'll we will book one for the next uh european blockchain convention i promise you okay thank you marek thank you to all panelists for a wonderful discussion we learn more stuff about sustainability blockchain how this links together and i guess there's a lot more to talk about that's why we left a little bit for next year so thank you very much marek for for moderating and organizing the session also martha yeah so she's here but i could not i couldn't see her so thank you once again a little message to the audience that was the last panel of this year's edition last panel of european boxing convention sessions but now the plan is victoria will join in a few seconds also to say goodbye to wrap up this edition and then we have prepared a little last minute session with all speakers so we have sent an email to all speakers a few minutes hours ago to join us for the last session i don't know who will show up i hope you three u4 can join also and let's see what they can maybe we can talk about the outlook for the 2022 and yeah so we will have a little party digitally in a couple of minutes so i hope you can join us for a while and see you in a bit see you in a bit bye [Music]