Pioneering Use Cases of Zero-Knowledge Tech, ZKEX, Holonym, BTQ, and zkLink

about zero knowledge and the dominant narrative about zika proofs in Industry right now is very much about scaling ethereum and while that is really exciting we'd like to introduce a few other scenarios a few other case studies that we think that you'll find very interesting and exciting that where ZK proofs could be applied so the magic of zero knowledge it allows us to rethink and reinvent how we think about security identity privacy compliance and interoperability and this afternoon we've got two sessions first we'll have four lightning talks with four projects that will give you an idea about what they're building and how they're building it and then we have a fireside chat with a few Founders and we'll dig a little bit deeper into the use cases of each project and why they're making the decisions that they are and by the way if anyone has a question or any feedback then you can make yourself known to Flora who's saying who's at the back she's going to be the moderator of the panel discussion this afternoon right one of the guys from our hosts couldn't make it his flight was canceled but he kindly made a video so I'm gonna play his video as an introduction he's from his name is Chris from btq and let's hope everything works well foreign for sale the first time you always do right automatically anything and bought earned his money back immediately chance 8th Denver super excited to be sharing what btq is working on with all of you so in a nutshell b2q builds post Quantum infrastructure for blockchains we're working on post Quantum cryptography to secure blockchains against attacks by both classical and quantum computers we're working on Hardware to accelerate computations for post Quantum cryptographic Primitives and we're also exploring applications of quantum algorithms in blockchains so our company was founded by a team of post Quantum cryptography researchers and research and research and development is at the core of everything that we do so some of our early research production includes the first nist compliant post Quantum aggregate signature as well as proof of Concepts in post-quantum zero knowledge acceleration Hardware we're working with some fantastic teams around the world on both the application and research side including e-tree and tsmc in Taiwan McQueary University in Australia and holinim who's a co-panelist on today's event so a lot of what fuels us to do research in post Quantum cryptography is driven by the rapid developments in Quantum Computing research in 2022 governments had by then announced over 20 billion dollars in funding directed to to research in Quantum computing and there's also been a significant increase in attention paid by by private companies so this includes hundreds of new startups as well as substantial investments from leading technology companies towards Quantum Computing research and development so we're fortunate to be able to build upon the foundation laid by Giants of organizations like nist which is the National Institute of Standards and technology and is widely recognized for its role in establishing International standards for cryptographic algorithms so in the past year the standardization of the first ever post-quantum digital signature algorithms has provided guidance to teams like ours on how to incorporate post Quantum cryptography into blockchains however a major problem for post Quantum cryptography is the overhead associated with these algorithms so post Quantum algorithms tend to be an order of magnitude more expensive than pre-quantum algorithms such as ecdsa and so at btq I record research focus is on reducing implementation and usage costs of post Quantum cryptography for blockchains so our research has culminated into a series of products that we'll be releasing this year and next kilang on the left is a zero knowledge domain-specific language and compiler with a library of post Quantum cryptographic Primitives and compatibility with a number of post-quantum zero knowledge printing systems kenting is specialized Hardware to accelerate post-quantum zero knowledge proof generation PQ scale is a scaling engine for Quantum resistant blockchain transactions and qsim is hardwired to accelerate post Quantum crypto algorithms such as those standardized by nist so we're super excited about the growing popularity of zero knowledge and all the new applications yet to be tapped into and we look forward to collaborating with all of you to build a more secure and decentralized Future thank you all so much for listening if you would like to get in touch I would love to chat you can find me on Twitter at the QR code on the screen my handle is also at underscore Chris tem96. appreciate y'all thank you so Chris is actually going to be here this evening uh his flight was canceled yesterday he was supposed to be this morning but if you see him say hello to him he's an awesome dude so I'm going to call up uh our next speaker from Holland so shoddy over to you hello hey guys uh it's really great to see such an incredible evolution of eth Denver uh my name is Shadi I'm a co-founder at holonim I'll tell you a little bit more about that in just a sec uh fun fact holiday was born here exactly one year ago at East Denver trying to solve a problem that we were stumped about but I'm kind of curious to know if this is an issue that people are still dealing with today so I would love to know who here is a developer great you're in the right place who here uh is is familiar with ZK or has been working on ZK projects perfect okay so you're all definitely in the right place um and then last question last question uh how many of you have been stumped with the issue of how do we deal with private data on public blockchains all right about half of you so it sounds like the other half have the solution so definitely want to talk to you afterwards um perfect yeah so uh nanak and I we came together at Sanford hackathon uh where you know we both came from uh Georgetown we were doing research in neuroscience and then we were interested in how we could enforce claims on things like data sets that were being published in decentralized science or DSi protocols and then we figured out okay holy crap like there's a huge issue here there's very few ways to do this uh on a public blockchain without doxing people so we built hollandim which is this ZK protocol that allows you to issue sbts derived from proofs generated from a ZK uh from a ZK circuit so you know we've come a long way since then and we've realized that hey like Colin M just doesn't solve issues for scientists that want to prove ownership of their IP on chain or other types of creators that want to prove things about their about themselves but specifically we're kind of at this crossroads right now within web 3 where regulations coming it's a storm that's on the horizon it has it's a mixed bag right and so it's pretty clear I think that institutional adoption or the embracing of web 3 into mainstream crypto Commerce right making crypto Commerce mainstream uh it's not going to be possible without institutional uh without Regulatory Compliance and mechanisms for that that drive well both with web 3 principles and the existing system which we think is also going to have to change as well so what do I mean really by this precipice that we're standing on so I kind of see that I don't know if we look forward towards the future and what kind of systems might emerge if blockchain really does satisfy all of the all these blockchain and web3 systems really satisfy all the needs and requirements that they're attempting to tackle so there's we're kind of at this energy landscape right where a series of decisions that we make at the policy scale at the you know perhaps development scale the things that we choose to roll out the way that we roll them out will lead either to this situation where we have a centralized authoritarian protocol that has this like non-consensual relationship with its citizens or peers and we're all basically in service or enthralled to this centralized protocol right so think like China but running on a blockchain and everything's automated really scary on the other side right I really think it's a dichotomy and if you think otherwise would love to chat with you afterwards and and dive into this more deeply on the other side uh we're I imagine more of a public goods regen sort of future where you have a central uh maybe distributed protocol that acts in service of clients so we're all basically using a protocol to disintermediate trust to rely on the mathematics when it comes to crypto Commerce when it comes to proving things about ourselves all meaning anonymity so we're at this inflection point and we need to make decisions today how we drive the ball down that energy landscape towards the future that we want to see and I think you all would agree uh that option b or path B is the one that we want to be down so how do we really solve some of these issues right and I think a lot of it has to do with coming together and coordinating and co-opting this human-centric path uh you know I'm not going to chat with you to you with all you guys hear about the details of this but yeah I mean smart contracts right they help us consent into structures of cooperation uh towards goal directed group Behavior right that's something that wasn't really possible before in code and we need to think very carefully about how things like privacy uh how other tools such as identity also uh play into that key to this really is public private key cryptography so being able to establish self sovereignty in these autonomous systems begins with identity Providence so knowing who what when and how long a certain entity or agent has interacted with the protocol so the Privacy conundrum on public blockchains you know I mean if any of you guys follow for example uh Constitution Dao right so Constitution Dow was a Dao that was coming together using juice box to raise a bunch of funds to buy the Constitution really epic story you know Nick Cage would be proud however they had like this really you know specific you know problem which is that all of their governance their voting their on-chain actions were public and this is a general problem for public blockchains in general right so for example take this uh Toy use case where you have some proposal that's up for votes and you can see on chain all of the different dids and whether they're voting yes or no in a particular Trigger action or particular contract execution flow so there's a couple problems with this one is uh you can't really tell if those dids are different people or the same person so civil attacks are a major problem here it's very difficult to hold these dids accountable so for example if you do determine that somebody is trying to rug pull this contract or influence the governance I mean what are you going to do to try to get them to pay up right or or be held accountable and in most cases privacy is Black or White if you try to solve these issues right so either you docs everybody before you onboard them into your Dao or you just deal with the fact that you could you know you're not sure who people are what their intentions are so there is a middle ground and this you know this is not a novel concept it's not a new idea and it's pretty clear at this point I think that reputation systems are going to be key for engineering around this but on-chain reputation is really hard all right so we've seen this try to be tackled in many different ways um how do you even verify off-chain Behavior how do you prevent people from selling their reputation um how do you maintain user consent as you collect user user reputation so for example FICO or the Chinese social credit score you know there's not a lot of consent involved there and it could be abuse right so that's really important Central to all of this is how do you maintain privacy in these reputation systems so that's why we built Holland M Holland specifically for developers that want to upgrade their dap with CK proofs on identity that maintain privacy on public blockchains uh we take we well we took inspiration continuously taking inspiration from Nick zabbo in 1994 uh check it out he wrote a paper where he introduced smart contracts before vitalik ever put cursor to terminal and he specifically spoke about Nims as these little pieces of identifying information that only reveal the exact bit of info that you need to execute some function or enter into some contractual agreement through code so we've taken that approach and we've used ZK to wrap individual Nims such as different components of your driver's license like your name the country your social security number whether you have good or bad Vision Biometrics for example is another idea so for example a hashed version of your uh face through face ID or your fingerprint scan through uh like through a 502 compliant cryptographic scheme using iOS or like web accounts so we take we built a protocol that allows you to take these individual names and then wrap them in a ZK cloak called the hollow and then from that Hollow which is represented on chain as a global Merkle tree as a hash Global Merkle tree uh you can produce proofs on your own self and then mint those proofs as sbts to an address that you control performing certain specific actions within a say like one SBT to prove you're a US resident to engage in a Lobby three political uh uh act right because you're a US resident you want to govern over funds specifically for uh campaign campaign support for web 3 advocacy right while maintaining compliant and there's some other really interesting use cases here I can definitely chat about them after the talk if you're interested uh the way that it works really really really coarsely um is that we where this hybrid cryptographic solution right so uh basically on chain we're a protocol that allows any off-chain issuer to plug in and generate ZK proofs on their users while maintaining privacy for the user and the way that this is done is that the user accesses some portal some third-party kycc through like vouched or Persona it could be like the DMV even could run their own issuer and they submit their credentials the credentials get verified hash there's a nullifier scheme in there that the that is eventually replaced by a random seed from the user so once they receive their hashed verified signed credentials from the issuer the user now has substitutes that with their own uh salt and pepper and then that's put on chain through a relayer so the user doesn't even have to interact or pay gas at any point and they remain anonymous they don't have to docks a certain did that they've interacted say with this IP address and this did with this DMV or this you know kyc provider and that's passed on to this Global Merkle tree where the user is added as a leaf in that tree and then from there we can produce proofs on top of that identity such as they're not a bot that they are from the US or not from the US or perhaps they own some intellectual property so I alluded to before who's using this uh Lobby 3 is using this because they want to be a licensed lobbying Dao but to do so they need to be able to provide proof that their users aren't from Russia or other countries even because there's laws against that and so that allows us to achieve credibility Within These policy circles it allows web 3 to really continue building momentum and going mainstream uh get coins using this as well for low low friction onboarding kyc for their users that's also privacy preserving and there's other use cases as well I would love to chat with you guys about them so this is just to start we think that this is the tip of the iceberg and especially when it comes to verifying for example like professional credentials or legal status or uh whether a business really is a business when it's on chain and really bridging these two the old world with the neem so it's just not me uh come find us about half of our team is here today at East Denver I think you can find nanak in the back there Caleb is also floating around uh and would love to chat with you guys about ZK how you think you might use it and tell us you know what would you know what would you like to see as well as a solution uh to to private identity on public blockchains thank you so we at ziki X are actually building on holonym we're about to experiment with them and we're gonna build we're actually building on ZK link who are our next speaker so I'm gonna welcome Vince who's the co-founder of CK link [Music] good afternoon everyone my name is Vince co-founder of zika Link today it is my pleasure to come to East Denver from Longway I've left from Singapore uh it's a long way to present the specific use case that we're building with zkp marching trading layer secured with ZK snarks uh these we started about two years ago since day one we are very much focused on trading so the target the purpose of the killing is to bring decentralized the trading to the next level so we empower the next generation of decentralized trading Solutions uh on this graphic you can see that this is the general architecture of sickling zika roap Network on the bottom of this graphic you can see that we are connected with multiple layer one blockchains and also other layer 2 networks for example we for the layer ones that we are connected today there are ethereum bimbing chain Avalanche polygon it Etc Solana Etc and lateral networks were going forward with stock net is it kissing scroll Finance helmets Etc and on our unified roll-up contract we we can aggregate the assets native tokens and the liquidities from all these connected layer on top of our rollup platform Builders are able to build multiple different types of applications such as am Dex order book decks and uh an FD Marketplace a derivative products and uh wallet in the sitters so what is special about ezekieling as a unified multichune trading layer for D5 and NFD assets first of all the killing is you developer friendly the development cost for for developers and zikylink is extremely low as we provide a high level integrated apis to enable developers to quickly deploy the products that they have for example other Book Exchange amms constant constant products Univision easily Etc and we are highly customizable as a application specific roll-up we provide full freedom to play with different parameters to enable developers to go go deep in certain features and optimize these features to provide the state-of-the-art user experience and minimize the cost at the same time and uh we can provide on our platform we can provide unified multigen liquidity and token merge assets aggregation for example you are able to build a Decks that can merge liquidated from ethereum from Solana from stockinette it is interests this slice is a general tech technical architecture of how a mortgage in the Europe works on the right you uh the the right graphic explains how we set our transactions uh in the using zkp they we record all the deposits from connected blockchains and alert networks and unified state tree and every once a while when there will be some transactions And Trades happening on the zika link layer 2 Network and then we regenerate a recursive zkp containing several blocks that has the information of of thousands of transactions and then we send this same zkp to blockchain A B C D and and and the the zkp containing the transaction information will be verified and settled by the smart contract we deployed on each of these connect networks on the left side you see that we to ensure that to minimize the risk of conspiracy to ensure that we're ascending in the same zkp the same final route containing the same transaction and deposit information we have implemented a decision a third-party independent decentralized network of oracles to check that we are actually sending the same fan roots to each of these blockchains so this consistency check is very simple but a very uh is necessary to ensure that the sequencers at the beginning will not be able to uh Rock users funds so this is the security design of the killing to by separating these two steps we ensured that the risk of conspiracy is minimized uh so we what do we have done so far uh in the past two years we have built a unified steel tray to record all the users funds from different blockchains we have real mini token merch liquidity aggregation we uh we have designed some Trader friendly features for example we can now support up to 65 500 35 other slot so Traders can place nearly unlimited orders and other book exchange for example and we can merge uh heterogeneous account system so we can support evm blockchains together with non-event blockchains like Solana like stocknet and we can also supports Auto Connection and disconnection of alien blockchains for example if there is some risk that we believe that is going to happen with any of the connected layer ones or layer twos the dial can decide and and disconnect this blockchain and of course mostly we have done a lot of work around the performance optimization and the cost optimization uh we have passed the millions of tests in data volume the isolated app ID design proves concurrent processing of the state trees to support a really really powerful and a CeX like decentralized abundance we also have developed a risk control engine the some of the next steps that we're going to do going forward we're going to where right now we are building uh the features to support derivatives trading derivative products like prep contracts and Structured Products Etc and also we had developing some toolkits for developers to be more developer friendly integrated rust SDK gssdk go SDK and uh and provide a unified coding standard of course security is always the focus we are strengthening the security level by decentralize the sequences in the beginning when we go live in the in the beginning there will be only one sequester just exactly the same as other layer 2 networks for in economical reasons but going forward the non-term will go we are we will incentivize Community to decentralize the sequencer to become more censorship resistant um and we'll go of course we we will we'll go we're gonna continually uh optimize the performance and cost of the circuits on the circuit level uh so uh around the ziki link uh uh multi change the roll up Network developers can quickly build and deploy products such as multitude amm decks uh more teaching order books exchange modeling and FD Marketplace a multitude version of immutable x a Launchpad and wallet Etc uh in crypto we believe that nothing is more important than security so to furtherly explore the security boundary of zikylink's Mortgage in the group network we have planned that and com and community events we call it Dunkirk so what is Dunkirk it is a user asset evacuation plan so imagine that what's the scenario just happened the ziki link network is done the server is gone the team is gone everything goes silence and users can no longer access to the layer 2 Network so how can user withdraw their fund get back their fund as promised this is the promise of layer 2 and especially zkwa player tools so the Dunkirk is an open source recovery program that anyone can initiate for developers or users from Community you will be able to visit a library that we will open source when we go live a minute so with the code and instructions we are stored in the library anyone can start the recovery code and build a front-end and allow users to access to generate their energy proof and use the data stored on chain the historic States star ranching will allow users to withdraw their funds and back to the wallet for example if you have 10 ethereum deposited to the smart contract and deposit to signaling Layer Two And when when the disaster just happens when the island from the community after a certain period of course there will be a silent spirit so to make sure that the team is gone right and so everything goes out then someone or anyone from Community can just start the recovery program and then users can with the Hub of this recovery codes you can generate their energy proof and a restore your fund for sports it's very simple for contract assets uh this recovery code will at the same time trigger the liquidation with the last Unchained price feed and then the rest of the steps are exactly that's the sport assets so here we warmly welcome everyone to become in our incentivize the safe house partners we have prepared this Dunkirk rehearsal so before we go live we will go live very soon this year we will do at least one time of Dunkirk to show the users to show traders that how zika ruap Network can be safe and under the extreme condition that your fund still under your control and you can get it back and for our developers or a for any community members it's very simple to run this program you just need to have a a domain that is public accessible and also you just build a front-end a very simple front-end thank you very much um the future of decentralized trading I think will be ex-linked thank you education in Japan good afternoon everyone my name is Bilal I'm one of the co-founders of at zkex um okay so around a year ago zkx was created we can say that we're also an East Denver baby partially from the pain and dismay of how we felt crypto was going and also from the excitement and optimism about how we can improve things so from day one when we formed ourselves when we formed uh the project we asked ourselves the question how can we better Empower people to trade any crypto from any network using any coin in a single step and the answer one year ago was you can't you need to set up different wallets for different networks move money using different Bridges and use different stable coins every single time the answer even now today one year later is still you can't and the complexity with more l1s and more l2s has only got worse and more complicated so we'd like to welcome you to the Future because later this year zkx will go live we're building an omni chain Club decks using for a multi-chain world using zero knowledge proofs and this is going to be a DEX with a CeX like experience without user experience compromises without functionality constraints and without security risks the problem with solving is quite simple quite simply decentralized Trading is broken at pretty much every single level so users are facing complicated experiences fragmented liquidity across different wallets and chains and networks and limited functionality if you're a Trader so Traders really have no other option if you go to a Pro Trader they're all using cexs and they have to give a custody of of their assets the question is why is that why do cxs still have their market share and the answer is that decentralized trading right now is far from perfect and these problems actually result in billions of dollars of losses sometimes intentional some unintentional from hacks mistakes and other unnecessary risks now after the D5 summer what we saw was a movement from cex's to D5 but because of uh uh declining um uh declining yields a lot of those people have moved back to cex's and even post FTX collapse cex's have actually regained those few percentage points which they lost initially and they've regained it back so people again moving back to centralized protocols and and projects and why is that it's I think we all have experiences pain that um uh eoa wallets are super unfriendly and especially for a newcomer you usually have to get someone's help to tell you what to do and how to how to get set up private keys are really easy to get lost or stolen and so the chance of you losing your assets is relatively High we recently had a community um Twitter space and a lot of our community was saying one after another we heard so many sad stories about how people lost their money in in different different ways in different ways the second problem is that liquidity is hugely fragmented in D5 across all these different networks the third problem is that amms don't really support Advanced type types of um products such as derivatives and there have been a few attempts to do this but there's nothing really satisfactory for Traders and the problems for cexs are even more obvious so there's always these non-stop rumors about a CeX that's about to get rugged that maybe they don't actually have the assets they claim they they too and as uh as people who believe in crypto and D5 in general um you know we always told to never give up our keys or our coins but really do we most of us do so these actually are super difficult problems but we believe it's actually a huge opportunity for us where we think we have a solution now what we think is conservatively if at the moment the amount of Revenue of the the amount of user fees generated around 2 billion uh dollars per year as of last year but if we even have a conservative growth of around 60 growth rate per year in the next three years that might be an eight billion dollar opportunity that's even on the current product set at the moment without considering new products coming coming online so there's a massive opportunity here for D5 to grow a lot lot bigger the market we believe right now is structured with CeX dominating 90 of the market and their business model right now is being challenged we've all heard about regulation and they are really worried about how what they're going to do in the near future so we can see that there's highly regulated uh CeX is some which are partially regulated and you've got uh D5 on the on the left what we believe is actually in the future there will be a split the spectrum of crypto trading will definitely split into very cleanly to decentralized on the left and highly regulated exchanges on the right and the question for you is which one do you want which weight direction do you want to go now even with derivative products which are uh bring up a lot of trading volume uh the Traders actually have a stronger incentive to move out of CeX is for safety and compliance reasons now why do we think ztx will take over the market share that is currently being held by CeX is well we have a really simple answer quite simply we break any limitation that exists right now for any other decks any order book decks so when a CeX user uses our product they won't really tell any difference between whether they're using a CX or whether it's Oz the only difference is really that you're not giving up custody of your assets and it's fully decentralized at every level there's no County body risk so let me elaborate on that a little bit more our product is simple and we're essentially building a central limit order book decks built on a multi-chain layer 2 ziki Link and it will solve the problem of both dexes and cexs by combining the smooth trading experience of a CeX and with a Omni chain operability uh Club decks and we've got several killer features we think are new to the market and no one else has actually thought about or thought about implementing and we are really focused on optimizing the trading experience and capital efficiency so first off there's node cross chain risks you trade with Native assets and as you know a lot of assets have been lost or hacked in on bridges over the last few years and it's always a bit worrying when you actually send a large amount of money from one chain to another you have this moment of not knowing where the money doesn't exist anywhere at the moment about 15-20 minutes of pure panic where you until you wait for it to arrive on the on the on the other end so that experience is really very unsettling there's a lot of anxiety there and you can essentially uh trade from a single multi-chain L2 wallet across multiple chains very smooth and very easy you can aggravate all that liquidity as well because we support different types of stable coins usdc and a few others and they can all be collateral or be um merged together as a single USD token as a trading token and we also massively reduce the trading costs for Traders as well and we can support pretty much any kind of trading experience so we've actually finished our matching engine settlement system for our decks and all that's really left to do is to plug in market makers and connect to cklink to achieve finality for transactions and we believe that we actually have the fastest and cheapest layer 2 solution for trading other L2 Solutions are have massively reduced their costs over the last one or two years but we believe zkex can achieve into settlement and self-castity with the lowest possible cost in industry so we are the only only chain decks to have to offer a true CeX experience with only on only chain decks that's built in secret zero Notch Roll-Ups so we're actually building for Traders for professional Traders and it will be the first Decks that supports portfolio margin and provides a full spectrum of products for pro Traders so with portfolio margin all of your assets whether they're a spot spot leverage or contract assets they can all be used as collateral so Capital efficiency reaches the the highest level possible and even amongst CeX is I think only binance and okiex have this feature at the moment and will be the very first Dex to have this feature and one of the biggest obstacles is onboarding and getting users to actually come on board as quickly and simply as possible and of course the problems with EO wallets are well known and so we'll have a very simple solution where we'll prioritize smart contract wallets uh social login and with the log Club you UI we think we can have very rapid user adoption very very quickly and essentially the the matching engine and settlement system have actually reached the same levels of cex's already and we're going to find a way to connect those two without compromising the user experience so we'll have that experience on both web and and mobile now question is why do we choose to build on level 2 with uh CK approves there are many other different models such as intermediate blockchains and using other other l2s as well but we think that with zero knowledge proofs we can deliver the security scale decentralization and interoperability needed for a true Opti um on the Chain Club decks so the one of the biggest problems of when you're trading across multiple chains is the security that worry the anxiety but also the risk of hacking and with CK proofs we have a a foolproof way and in fact it's not even not even satisfactory for us we actually have actually built zkx to the point where even we can't rug build our own system as well so we've actually implemented a two-stage checks and balances uh security model first with ZK proofs and secondly with a decentralized uh check with independent oracles and we're giving Traders uh really low gas fees fast finality and and huge massive scalability and also by giving market makers who are very very important for us the massive huge hype up they need uh high throughput they need because computationally doing everything on change in extremely expensive so with the L2 that gives us that the ability to scale up and speed and make things very very fast and other l2s which we're building on ZK link CK sync stockware um Hermes and um also scroll they're all on track for full decentralization so we're kind of happy with that we're only picking the projects which we really actually believe in crypto and um are are doing good things in industry this gives a really good a really simple idea about our architecture so essentially we have two main groups of products one is the spot product one is derivatives and CTX offers you that multi-chain on um the multi-chain wallet you're trading from a single wallet you can buy any any coin any so you can buy any token on any chain using any any coin so this this is completely new in Industry at the moment so we're aggregating all your stable coins from multiple wallets into one pot essentially but it's still self-custodial it's not like you're not uploading uh you're not sending anything to us it's all trade from your own wallet and on the L2 and L front wait connects into as many um reliable networks as possible but even a lot of people ask us about other chains but really even right now this is about 80 of the month 70 80 of the market we'll think about other chains such as Solana and all the move uh LL ones a little bit later so this product is being built by crypto veterans so there's actually four co-founders and we've got a team in total of about 10 or 10 or 11 thereabouts and we've all got a strong track record but we also as well as having expertise in exchanges building exchanges both derivative products Market making and also high high frequency trading we've also got a lot of expertise in uh in UI in in community building as well so we have a small but very uh strong team and we're we're very much capable of of building this and a lot of people say that oh this is a really nice idea and when you're actually going to live go live and the really quick answer is we are super close to going live because we actually built most of the most most of most of the uh most of the exchange the spot products is pretty much ready where the derivatives product which is a Perpetual contract is in design right now and uh we're actually looking now to work with the right people so we are actually looking to hire developers as well but most politically on the business side we want to speak to strategic investors and market makers and uh and and pro Traders as well to come on board to give them something uh to actually help us push push us over the line and the best way to get involved with us and to make an intro with us is actually to go to our test net and to critique us we would love your feedback we're on version two right now we've got reasonable traction at the moment we've got four million transactions that were done by around 65 000 pretty active community members we would love to you guys to test it Grill Us by all means criticize us uh my co-founder is actually here as well one of the co-founders is here his name's easy he's at the back with the white with a white shirt and uh anything you want to say we're happy to hear it we're very very open and uh we'd love to hear for your feedback so uh that's me thank you so much and now I think we will move to the next stage of our session today we're pretty much bang on time so we've had 45 minutes of talks we'll have 45 minutes of maybe some good discussion so I think I'll call to the stage our moderator Flora who's going to host all our account discussion come on board and shoddy Vince could you come on common stage as well and we were going to have a speaker from dtq come on board as well but he still owns on the airplane I think so uh yeah do you guys want to join here about deals more sensible and New Year Adventures finally guys yeah sure test test go hey folks good afternoon today we're going to continue the session with a little bit of a deep dive on how our users can benefit from ZK applications so hi I'm Flora I'm the chief of staff at airfoil Studio a web 3 design and Engineering studio early stage Venture fund and also an in-house product incubator alongside me on stage today we have Builders from zkyx.com a bridgeless Omni change order book decks secured by ZK rollups hollandem.id a zero knowledge identity protocol for civil resistance Anonymous kyc and wallet recovery and last but not least ZK link a multi-chain trading layer secured with ZK snarks so most of the discussions that we've had at East Denver so far about are about how you can build your dap or protocol but in this session we'd like to dive a little bit deeper into why you're doing it and for whom you're building for all the builders here today are utilizing zero knowledge technology in some way or another personally I'm interested in the user experience of DK proofs and depths the tech is often hidden in the background of dapps so the user might not actually feel the benefit of privacy or security other than just being told that it's more private secure with ZK we can rethink how we approach Concepts like security identity privacy compliance and interoperability with that said my first question for each one of you is could you please explain to the audience what zero knowledge proofs are and why they're important in the way that you understand best shoddy would you like to start us off yeah sure uh yeah so ZK proofs right it kind of sounds like Arcane magic who came up with that term anyway but it's a technology that's been around since late 80s the real use cases for it though haven't been made apparent until recently within within the blockchain space I think like vitalik other academics stanford-based Dan Benet have really shown that there's incredible potential when you combine the power of a public distributed blockchain to serve proofs on any entity or any object or event or trigger out there in the real world so what do I mean by proofs well a proof is something where you input some some data some claim and that claim uh evaluates to a true or false right and so that black box that magic in the middle that's where the ZK happens so what we can do with the ZK proof is that we can take things like say with holonym your uh driver's license and we can prove with a QR code using just math on the back end that you are above 21 can enter the club uh get partying and all that good stuff uh so so that's that's one take on ZK proofs and I'm kind of excited to hear what you guys have okay so that's a pretty good explanation I'm going to take a different tact um I'm going to talk about what I think ZK proofs mean for ordinary people and I think it's a it's a chance and opportunity for ordinary people in the world to preserve their privacy and to preserve uh sovereignty over everything they have whether it's money or their personal data or their personal information because we've got into this Society now where everything is open everything is kind of transmitted for example the most annoying thing happens like you get an email from a random person that you never subscribe to or you know someone sold your email address to someone else then they're now you're being sent marketing information so nothing is private anymore unfortunately and CK proofs gives this ability to prove information which is needed in the world you have to prove yourself in some ways right but then you also don't want to give away your entire wallet information your personal ID your date of birth everything to everyone you don't need to give this information away so this is the very first time I think in technology where we actually do this in a way the way you don't have to trust any middle party so the proof is generated to be using mathematics and it's kind of it's uh essentially can be trusted and uh no no one's in the middle essentially so I think for from a user's perspective I think what people don't understand is it's a very complicated technology but as developers I think the impact you can have on people's lives is immense and we talked about use cases most of the use cases on things like uh scaling which is really important it saves us a lot of money make things faster sure but outside of that to impact people's lives I think outside of crypto uh is is is the impact is immense and I think I think even the uh the the potential D5 I think is still people think really small about what D5 is and what it could be and I think D5 will not grow it will not succeed it will fail without zero knowledge technology protecting users because this is what we're doing is we're not doing it for ourselves we're actually building for the world essentially it's a crazy wild dream but actually we do need technologies like this to protect ourselves and just kind of and make things uh better for everyone so I think from a user's perspective that's what I think about a lot so Vince uh maybe you can say something as well uh yeah I agree we have seen a lot of things foreign I think they have already explained what is ZK proof and I would like to elaborate a little bit more on the amazing properties that as their energy proof can bring us especially in crypto so in our case uh we utilize because it is uh it delivers a verifiable and trustless of change environments which allow us to process the data uh the transactions at a immense amount and at a acceptable cost this will make a real difference in crypto trading at least that's because I know the best personally I know the best about the crypto trading I'm not very familiar with the 80s and other you know use cases of their knowledge proofs but there are a lot of amazing properties and to explore in our case we just try our best to bring the decentralized trading to the next level to a level that everyone can use and that's what everyone will use I I just want to hop in real quick too and expand uh a little bit on what Bilal was saying so I think this is really important we should underscore it um so why are we here today and I think a lot of that has to do with kind of a reactionary pendulum to how technology has developed and come to enter our lives in different ways and you know we start off as a distributed decentralized arpanet right moving to Federated systems eventually emergence Cloud you know I'm repeating history that we all know here but I think what's really important for technology especially in how it moves towards the future where we automate more and more of of our society our functions our Commerce we put more of ourselves into technology you know when we start thinking about cybernetics uh consent is going to be the most important thing in Tech moving forward after this and what do I mean by consent well when we interact with an application today we accept cookies we we you know log in we send a transaction and we don't really know what's happening behind on the back end and so you know this has come to bite us back in the butts both as users and companies as well that have to deal with a liability for this sort of thing so it's a problem shared by everyone and ZK proofs give us this I think amazing opportunity for a paradigm shift where we embed voluntary cooperation into the mechanisms of of of of Technology specifically decentralized technology so I think so my backgrounds as a neuroscientist you can ask me later how I got into what I'm doing right now but I one one thing I kind of really think of that's important in biology is uh agency right so that's one really peculiar trait about the brain it's you know it's agent it's very difficult to know what's going on in someone's head and that's what gives them agency that's what gives them you could argue free will if you want to get philosophical but uh when we're talking about technology the ability to keep the things that you're transacting about or coordinating over private is going to be absolutely important for embedding these systems with agency and self-sovereignty right thanks Johnny so since we're at eat Denver a hackathon and this is a full circle moment for a few of our projects here I want to discuss a bit more about what you're building so for Sharia hollandum where's the demand for on-chain identity coming from it's understandable that users might want to prevent giving out personal data but why would an organization not want to collect user data yeah that's a really good question so to answer the the first part we had no idea that we would like make calling him like a thing like an actual protocol uh you know at the time it was called like WTF just as an acronym for web token forwarding when we were working with jwts we quickly changed that branding though to attract some VC funding uh so so now yes all names here now today so at the time we were really just trying to solve problems for ourselves and friends and those problems had to do with well how do I prove claims how do I know that this person really is like owning this piece of data or how do we know we're not getting civil attacked uh since then uh you know we made a really strong pivot to ZK after working on uh basically like jwts on chain and using uh some some interesting hashing functions there and most of the use cases that have come to us are Dows that are trying to either achieve legitimacy or credibility in the real world so they want to prove that you know their members are lawyers right but they want to maintain privacy uh and the same thing whether it's like a medical Dow that wants to prove hey like we want to offer Medical Services peer review expert-based services on chain in a completely permissionless way and we want to have a token and all this stuff but like how can we really prove that we have MDS how are people going to trust that so that's another use case um and then I think you know as we you know we've primarily focus on Dows that need to verify their members of privacy uh developers that want to put stuff on chain and prove things about their users but you know our little feeling kind of like skittish about dealing with uh actually custody of the data so so gdpr is really interesting for us specifically because in gdpr there's a clause about data controllers every single privacy policy has to have an identified data controller and this is the person where the buck stops the data controller usually is the one that ends up getting in trouble or fined or put out a business if they get breached or don't follow some very specific compliance criteria nobody wants to be a data controller so you know where we're seeing most of the demand moving forward into the future as we mature as a technology as a protocol and achieve more serious generalized use cases outside of just Dows is how do we disintermediate the data controller right so we have some really exciting Tech that we just put out uh that we just put have put out there recently that allows us to automate a lot of the stuff using smart contracts right to have transparent accountability to make sure that data controllers are um are can be put more into the math and that organizations companies dapps don't have to deal with the regulations of going through all the compliance can just focus on building so I've got a question actually so a lot of the use cases right now for you guys is on chain but what about off chain like what about a really simple scenario like healthcare like being able to go to a hospital get Healthcare and now let's see you forgot your passport and okay you I've got a hollow instead can I to prove who I am so is that do you think off chain scenarios are possible as well yeah I'm glad you brought that up below and I don't want this to turn into the Harlem show at all uh so but uh no that's a really great question and okay so really interesting uh there's these guys they're called hair Dao and they're trying to solve male pattern baldness with a token yeah so they're trying to wrap IP or an nft around the IP for that and then do this whole like decentralized clinical trials thing and so they reached out to us because they wanted to make sure that those folks that were claiming hair tokens are actually like bald people that deserve the token that are using the technology uh so yeah so so yeah that made us scratch our heads for a little bit but the use case actually uh was was uh was was really there because not only are they needing to prove things that everyone needs to prove like kyc or civil resistance or whatever um they also want to they they upload the they have their users upload their genes um and they're looking for specific phenotypes and Snips that they can use to you know uh you know do different types of analyzes or different types of coordination so there's a whole you know we haven't even barely gotten into this yet but ZK proofs on things about yourselves like Biometrics about yourselves in healthcare are completely game changing you could for example be be part of a decentralized clinical trial and a rare disease and prove ownership that you are in this patient Dao you can have ownership over the Therapeutics that are that are produced out of it and you never have to dox yourself and say you know I'm that dude with like you know the weird hair or something like that right um at least not online maybe not in person your your use case is to find things that people feel shameful about to protect the Privacy like that that's a use uh something juicy I don't know what it is but something like that yeah well not just shameful things but uh but yeah I think like also like off chain for like age verification like for gambling uh now that all CCPA just has a bunch of like age requirements uh there's different ways to deal with that and I think they're pretty flexible but I think in the future gating things by age content residencies gonna uh that hammer is gonna drop down more so in the future and we think that ZK can protect consumers so for off chain that's that's kind of what we're what we're thinking yeah right so lots of interesting applications for Hollows you know coming to you and now for ZK link so what are some of the trade-offs for being an app specific roll-up versus a general purpose L2 there's like a lot of general purpose l2s for the mass Market have bigger ecosystems evaluations and also media attention so why did you choose this as a specific Niche uh what benefits do the users themselves get this is a very good question okay I have to admit the first that the general purpose layers of today the major ZK layer twos the four ones that I think everyone in this room is aware of has raised way more Capital at a way more higher valuation than weighted and there is because they have a bigger story simply a general purpose Network can have more possibilities and than an application specific grow up network but there are some things that I can an application specific group can do better than a general purpose layer tools otherwise we wouldn't be sitting here today okay so first of all the development cost overall development cost of app specific grow up is uh significantly lower than a general purpose Network so we we start as a small group of Engineers so we are very bullish on general purpose Network we think the the ecosystem will boom uh very soon on general purpose in the dirty network but we we start as a small group so we wanted to build something at a reasonable cost and at a reasonable time frame so we yeah that's the that's the first thing the second thing is that in certain features for certain types of products an app specific rollup can be can do better can do a better job and then a general purpose layer to for example let me take trading as an example if you build an exchange um stock net today and uh you would expect to have a lot of volume in the future and but you have to share the bandwidth you have to share you have to compete with the other hundreds of projects on the throughput of sagana they will scale for sure but they your business very likely will surpass the speed of their scaling speeds so you will very much feel the pain of the bottleneck of you know the sailing of the throughputs but an app specific grow up can give you can maximize the performance you have the bandwidth of your own you can utilize all the supers for one specific business trading which is highly valuable highly profitable and we can scale faster than the general purpose Network and we can go deeper in optimization of op codes for certain op codes for example Atomic saw for audible exchange or constant product curve we can build that curve in circuits we can optimize the efficiency the performance of the circuits to maximize the performance that you need in certain parameters we can play with and third application's basically roll up can have like you know the uh an independent an independent ecosystem for example we're we're not competing with any of these general purpose negatives we are partnered with them we have we are partnered already with zika think we are closely connected to their engineers and stock net closely connect as well scroll very close I have Miss polygon studio is one of the early investors in us so there's no conflicted interest with them well instead of you know competing you choose to to try to attract volume try to attract uh traffic from the existing system so we embrace all of them we share the girls we share their prosperity with them we are a part of the exosystem where China agronostic EU system independent so we can be close to anyone and we can grow upon anyone whoever becomes successful in the future will be part of that we make sure ourselves will be a a part of the future yeah we're not betting on any single system yeah this is there are more reasons but yeah so but yeah so thanks for sharing now that we've touched upon why we want to have certain applications let's move on to zkex I talk about how we validate product Market fit in web 3 do you think that token incentives why warp the metrics for users yeah this is a this is a really interesting question we discussed it a lot internally um I mean the other day I invested in this AI project and I think the next day got rug pulled and so like I'm a little bit worried that ZK is like getting so much attention that there will be like these fake ZK projects and uh there will be no people might lose trust in in their knowledge if they get rug pulled and no one actually delivers I think the key thing here is you look at the deliverables of the team what what are they doing in which order so the first thing everyone does is they build a community and here you see a differentiation of the real projects and the potential Rock pullers because the potential Rock Builders will immediately put out their tokenomics model and launch their token and say hey we need your help to build our product and blah blah blah whatever and then that's an immediate indication that actually they don't really have a product and and to be honest even we know a lot of projects are doing this and they go to big conferences and they speak on the big stage and they we know very well actually internally that they don't actually have the product all they have is a PowerPoint presentation and they're just kind of going through this years and years of production development and actually never actually result in anything whatsoever so we the real projects you will see will build a community and then start building a product hand in hand with their community and people ask us a lot of time do you guys have a token is something outcoming is something coming out soon and the simple answer is we have no idea we don't even think about it we don't care right now we're entirely focused on building community and building the product so there's two stages so internally at Ezekiel ex we have these tiers of community uh membership and the the guys who are most valuable are the ones who are most proactive so when I was up on stage I mentioned please join our community and get it get in touch with us and that's actually who where we hire from as well that the people who are actually active in our community and they have a massive influence over our roadmap so if actually our roadmap is not mostly generated from our community who are a lot of Traders a lot of djans are sitting there and they're telling us what they want and this is important and why you're doing this this is a waste of time don't do this so it's it's really really important so in terms of the traction we're getting and in terms of the growth we hope it will be very very much in line with building a product that people absolutely love and and that's the proof essentially uh of of of of execution so you can see it very clearly when projects execute in a certain order and that's your that's your indication yeah you just got me thinking um so that's really interesting you know for ZK with those projects that you know maybe don't have a product but what are your thoughts on um like what happens to rug pulls when they become zkaid right when you're just interacting with this black box and you don't even know you have ZK that you've been rug pulled right is is that like a fear how do you mitigate against that and how are you guys thinking about it as well I think education is a massive problem right now um when people ask me uh what is your team doing and I say we're basically building a Decks that can't be hacked and the immediate response every almost every risk of time is that's dude like everything get hacked and everyone says it's secure so I think education is a really big problem right now and I don't really have an answer I don't know do you have one I I can't figure this out um well maybe I'm probably wrong but I think uh ZK snarks are interesting because then you can prove the result of a particular computation came from some code so if you're putting up um say like this is the protocol and we know that this result was generated from this protocol and maybe the inputs are shrouded or private uh there can be some level of trust but I don't know if there's a good answer to that yeah like what if your auntie created a hollow or she's using zkx like how would she how would she know that it's secure and it's private there's a I mean we're so used to trusting a third party uh to to tell us whether something is good or bad and now if we move into this new world it's so hard for people to actually truly know because all the scammers are out here as well you know they're literally sitting with us right now and they've all got bad intentions but there's good people here too I'm not a single bad but it's the real problem like actually getting to that mass market adoption getting out of East Denver and actually going out into Denver and selling your solution your app whatever it is it requires massive education and there's no real no one's actually told me how to do this it's really hard I think it's really no one has the perfect answer right now I actually wonder how is that possible to hack a zika protocol I am trying to understand because in our design in our Securities and this is a focus one of the focus is we take ourselves as a hacker so if we can hack it then others can hack it if we cannot hack it then how can others hack it yeah this is our assumption so in our design I think this will pretty much worth like preventing ourselves from being evil yeah so I I'm yeah I'm curious to know more how can anyone hack the snark protocol yeah yeah I think um again I'm you know I might be wrong here but uh I think that proofs that are composable can give you like really weird Behavior right so if you can prove like that you've staked in a contract under certain conditions and then you can also prove that you have leverage that is within a certain condition through some weird mathematics maybe like or edge cases that you can't really figure out unless you simulate all of them or battle test it hardcore you might end up with random exploits that nobody can know about unless you're you know that's literally like your day job or that's you know you're so I wonder how big that that is of a risk and I don't think we'll know until some of these uh projects get deployed and we need time to tell yeah so now that we have a little bit more insight into the inner International projects I want to shift gears and ask about the ZK applications for zkx are the projects and methodologies and Technology around ZK Roll-Ups over hyped uh well ZK really enable mass adoption or blockchain technology and crypto in the long term so I should be careful because um our partners are all here like ziki is thinking stockware and ziki Link they're all sitting here so we're actually very bullish about all of these Roll-Ups and we're really happy that they're getting attention and they'll get more adoption amongst at least within the ethereum community and also uh the crypto Community wider as well I think uh it's going to be brilliant for ethereum that when all the all of these Roll-Ups go go into mainnet but I kind of I'm sitting in the middle a little bit because I'm I'm a natural pessimist so I think in the short term they are getting attention because they're they're they're heading towards mainnet so there's this anticipation for something to happen but at the same time if you look at the number of Roll-Ups that exist in the market right now I think I counted this like 25 or 26 at the moment and a lot of them are general purpose Roll-Ups that do the same similar things and there's a growing set of application specific Roll-Ups and I really think that not all of them are going to win and who are going to be the users for all of these Roll-Ups uh and because we're still thinking about um D5 living inside a little bubble and for us for it to get out I think the major problem for user adoption is going to be usability that's the massive huge hurdle which hasn't been solved so far and is not close to being solved at the moment I mean we're trying to I mean our project is doing our best to try and solve this problem but I think the the the the the wider The Wider problem is that um people don't really uh see uh don't really care about the technology we're developers we care about the tech but the users the end users don't care about the L1 or the L2 or the L3 they just want to do a task or they want to do a job in some kind so I believe in the in the right now they're getting a lot of attention but in the future people won't even know what chain or network they're interacting on it would just be like hidden in the background just like how like you don't know which database your bank is using are they using postgres or are they using like Oracle who knows you don't care it freaking works right so that's how that's how it will go in our case we think a lot about uh the next generation of crypto trading we're kind of really hyper focused on that and how it might play out and again if we think about what are the problems and ultimately a lot of the problems things like security and privacy and things like that Traders experience is down to lack of functionality and bad usability which impedes everything so that's really the way the focus should be and even as developers I would really encourage you to not get stuck into the tech too much you should always take a step back a breather every so often and talk to your users and get them to play audio tech and see is this any good is it working or is it good you will often find out that you've gone in the wrong direction a little bit and you need to be pulled back a little bit so that's that's a very general broad answer um yeah go ahead uh yeah no I just wanted to also kind of um so Chris was supposed to be here today with us from btq and I think he would have had a really interesting uh response to this question so uh btq has a really long time Horizon in terms of what CK means and what it brings and they don't just think that it's hype or else they wouldn't be investing you know 10 years out so you know a lot of major topics right now within uh cryptography in general is how do we ensure you know the next iteration of um all right so we're at the current RSA you know uh all the RSA algorithms have been upgraded right with uh just in the past like what like year or two years right 4096 or something um but eventually we can't keep making our uh uh our our our hash functions just bigger and more memory intensive eventually will hit a limit so there's a lot of research going on in post quantum [Music] um uh resistant uh cryptography and btq is leading the charge on this right so folks like Justin thaler who you know they were working on one specific area of cryptography and their entire life's work and then they realized immediately like holy crap you know we need to figure out how post-quantum uh systems really are going to precipitate into reality and CK is going to be a major part of that story it's going to start off in the research labs and and you know these Niche little products these initial markets but in general when we talk about trusted execute environments we're going to be talking about Hardware acceleration through ZK we're going to be talking about uh we're going to be talking about um uh yeah ZK based proving systems and consumer like iPhones in uh uh in in software so so yeah so I think ZK is not just hype it's something that's going to fundamentally change how technology works it's really important from this cultural level that we talked about that law brought up earlier how we actually enter interact with computers and maintaining consent and at the very low level also ensuring that these systems that we're trusting remain hopefully Incorruptible by adverse actors can I throw this question to our host actually for a second because you have a ux a lot of T-Rex experience so ux and web3 is kind of a joke internal joke amongst developers how not great it is and uh how would you communicate something as complicated as the ZK proof to ordinary people like from your side what do you think right so with ZK proofs the way I see is that you're not revealing information that's unnecessary like you're giving people the Crux of what they want without necessarily giving away sensitive info and I think a big thing in web3 ux right now is that we're actually overloading the users with all these buzzwords of hey use this because we're using X technology even though you as a user at the end of the day probably don't care because you have a problem that you want to solve at the end of the day we're providing them with tools and ways to better solve these issues and with ZK we're rethinking the ways that we approach things like privacy security interoperability and compliance so for us abstraction isn't a bad thing necessarily but it's actually good if you're not revealing what someone doesn't need to see then it can simplify their understanding of the project itself and ultimately lead to a smoother and more concise experience overall so the original question was about the weather zkp is overhyped today in the market okay personally as a zkb maxi my answer is no I think op is overhyped the op ecosystem we say today yeah we have seen a lot of traction recently right web tokens rising and the big companies Enterprises uh just adopting the solution but it's just transitional I think ZK gonna take over eventually it's just a time of it's a matter of time yeah it's it's a question of one not a question of if uh and ZK still of not a mainstream solution or or not for the mass Market people are still far away from using anything that is you know built on this technology we were just discussing a lot last year when I came here it was like about 10 projects then you know really irrelevance but this year I think there will be like 10 times more this is a good signal this is a positive signal a lot more Builders are coming in this heat from last year to this year and nothing more Capital are flowing in to support the development but you know with these amazing properties that we have talked about with dkp there are many many different kinds of products mainly probably some beyond our imagination where we will totally change how people think and how people interact with the with the crypto applications and how people treat of course um yeah so in general uh Decay is not overhyped and the market value is still small there's no major zkp project that has you know has a high very high market value if you think of you know aotc what does they do they do nothing right they just consume they just consume uh electricity nothing else but you know we we need at least some projects to be higher valued than that yeah so there's still language to go I think there's still a lot of space to grow so on that note I want to each I want to ask each of our panelists here how do you see the future of ZK applications as we evolve yeah so you want to start a soft shouting yeah yeah so I think uh maybe I can start off uh so yeah so actually we when we built out Holland it was specifically oh thank you Vince uh so specifically for developers um you know we're building back-end protocols we are back in API calls that developers can make to do whatever it is that they needed to do but in the process of getting people to understand what it was that we actually do we had to build a consumer facing app first because just documentation doesn't cut it I think you know walking through the flow and seeing where the data is consumed when the third party identity issuers called how the user interacts with their metamask or not their metamask to do different types of proofs we ended up spending way more time designing the ux when we're a beat you know we're supposed to be B2B uh uh for for the end user the consumer uh then then we anticipated and I think this is going to be an ongoing an ongoing theme so for for ZK when we're thinking about what it really does is it you know kind of like uh blurs out it's like a selective blurring uh using encryption for pieces of information uh with provenance behind that so you know that the blur isn't just blurred arbitrarily but it's linked to some verifiable chain of of subsequent proofs or dependency on on let's say call it truth um so I think for the user they're going to have to learn learn how to really operate in this world where it's not like hey look at me I'm on Twitter this is my phone number I mean this is how I am actually on social media like you know here you know I conflate all of my information together and I'm pretty public about it right and maybe not it's not a good idea but I think moving forward especially when we think about data economies this buzzword that's been around for you know since like I don't know like ethereum launch maybe even before uh data economies when we're thinking about self-sovereign data self-sovereign identity users are going to have to learn how to basically be responsible custodians of their own uh privacy their own self-representation who they choose to produce proofs to right so if I produce a proof that I'm over 18 and a US resident to some you know protocol maybe that's run by a nation state maybe they would uh censor me for example maybe we don't want people from Monrovia that are over 18 using our application because we don't agree with them politically or something so so there's all of these really nuanced gotcha ux situations that we're going to find ourselves in education is going to be a huge part of that and I think from now on dap development is going to have to keep the end user in mind as well as the developers and I think it's just the common theme for web3 in general as well yeah what was the question again sorry just make sure yeah how do you see ZK applications evolving into the future oh okay yeah yeah so uh interesting because I was I was about to talk a little bit on the layer 3 landscape because now I think today we can start to imagine how you know the future applications will be like layer 2 is one of the focus of this year one of the high panel Focus hype of the of the year and this conference we're gonna I'm pretty sure that in the coming week and we're going to have a lot of sessions discussions panels speeches on this and Layer Three is coming very soon together with Layer Two but uh so the future applications from users perspective probably they don't care not much about you know the underlying technology they only care about the usability the cost whether it's easy to use easy to understand intuitive and it's a cost effective on layer 3 we will have the possibility to you know to build something with really real Mass adoption I'm talking about uh maybe tens of millions of user maybe hundreds uh hundreds of millions of users like like mobile mobile applications yeah those so I believe that the the pathway for their knowledge we're gonna see like applications unless three with Master division very soon I think what I'm hoping for 2023 is for developer tooling to massively improve in the ZK space because at the moment people are you shouldn't need to be a mathematician to develop with ZK proofs you should just be able to use something and plug it into your adapt whatever you're building and your focus should really be on the end user rather than getting stuck into all of these kind of uh very low level code it's like you know when you're coding in assembly as opposed to like a high level language it's it's just a waste of your time and it's not productive which means that people won't build anything because it can't actually end up building anything in the end so yeah that's a really uh simple hope for 2023 oh awesome so on that note I want to give a huge thank you to all three of our panels today what's give them a warm yeah of course foreign