#BUIDLing in a Bear Market with Stani Kulechov, John Paller, Vitalik Buterin

okay we're gonna come down the home stretch so a good friend of mine who is actually up here not too long ago but we're gonna have a little bit more of a casual chat ni you want to come join me on stage here so Stony the founder of Ave we all know him we all love him uh why don't you hang out right here oh we have an empty fridge here we have an empty fridge I think uh yeah oh well there should be beer at this time of night right we do have happy Friday evening say that again happy Friday evening yeah Friday so it's eight o'clock on Friday and y'all are sitting here watching us come on Colorado fun is anybody gonna go to eat dance tonight or maybe a sporkwell VIP party no connection they're gonna build maybe we should do a surprise rather what do you all think [Music] maybe we should I'll tell you what I'm gonna tweet right now oh okay little Alpha so my handle is at Power John retweet like follow to get a if you leak like retweet and follow I'm gonna pick somebody who does all of those things to get a free sport well upgrade so I'm going to do this right now okay so come to at Power John and do that get a chance at a free sparkwell upgrade now if you don't know what that means sporkwell is our version of VIP we got rid of that name because we don't really like it because it doesn't fit you know the concept of contribution yeah you could buy a spork weld pass if you want but a lot of our sparkwell holders are actually contributors from many years past so you can stake 250 000 sport tokens and get a free pass every year so you don't have to like you know you don't have to like actually put money out it's more of an investment uh okay here we go tweet now you have to be here I get people on live stream hey can I come down and get that pass I'm like no dude you got to be here so I'm gonna pick somebody at the end so I'm gonna DM you and then we can arrange to get you your pass okay so do that right now at Power John I just tweeted like follow retweet got it so we're going to talk about bear markets you know bear Market bear markets I mean we're supposedly we're in a bear so let's start there what's a bear to you well it's bird to me is um I think kind of like a a state where there's less noise um you know less over excitement less relatives calling you and asking what uh crypto to buy tomorrow or today um you know and um getting messages from uh Facebook from people you haven't seen for uh 20 years and and asking like how to get into crypto um I think bear Market is a state where um you have people in the space that are really interested in pushing the uh space and Innovation forward and I like to call that you know there's there's a bull market there's bear Market uh but after you know the bear Market turns into a builder market and I think that's where we are at this point so we have a space at the moment where um you have people who believe in the technology are excited about what kind of opportunities it can bring um and also are here for the very long run and I think that's where a lot of most valuable input and ideas are are created yeah it's interesting because um eat Denver has happened I would say out of now this being the number sixth one that we've done only two of them were in Bull markets and the fascinating thing is we end up with so much better projects in the in the bear markets yeah it's really there's like an inverse correlation right like last year was a bull market and the prod there was a lot of really great projects but for 13 000 people the signal was down actually from what we've seen before in Bear markets what do you what do you think is this the the Bittle Market that you're talking about where it's I think it is I think um you know I think there's when you have over excitement in in this space in the industry what happens very easily that um incremental ideas get a lot of traction and you know that's also a great thing right so you know you see a lot of exciting experimentations but um you know when you have less demand you actually have to start building more um things that actually push the Innovation far more further um and you know it's for me especially during this kind of times it really allows you also to talk to people who are extremely excited about what you're building and um I know there's a lot of Builders here um and thanks for actually taking time off of your hacking and coming here to listen to uh us for a second um so I'm trying to get give some valuable valuable tips as well so I think us building any product it's it's a lot about talking to the users and talking to your community and having a process of iterating the product feedback and implementing and uh listening um and and during times like this what's very helpful is that usually have the users that really care about what you're building or it's somehow valuable for you and that's those are the users where you can get the most valuable feedback and I still remember when we were building um even before our our first protocol eat land we still have today users that we were testing the protocol um in its early stages and gave valuable feedback and and that's the reason why uh we were able to iterate the the Ave protocol to to the state it is today and I think that's something that is very valuable uh during times like this so what it sounds like you're saying is it's just it's it it's just better focused there's less noise there's more opportunity to really distill product refined product Market fit or even retool so and it takes time so you know you don't need to be successful like very quickly like there there's actually more time to um iterate your your uh product and and whatever you're building at and and that's very important because um I there is there isn't really overnight successes right so it takes a couple of years or even more to get into um decent adoption or get a decent user base that helps you to build build a product further so everybody knows that you work on a lot of various things you've got a lot of cool projects going on like what what's your what are you working on right now what's the what's the bear Market interest that you've got yeah there's a couple of things that I'm super excited about at office so uh first we've been able to gather people in our team that are that are excited about um you know think about web3 and and the internet as a as a whole so how we um how we can add decentralization but at the same time you know how we can build an internet you know which benefits everyone um and provides equal opportunity in finance and social participation um on the other side and mostly we're focusing uh on the go stablecoin um so that's a big project for our team on the um uh lens side uh we've been building lens protocol which where the Ave protocol provides um equal access to financial opportunity across globally into transparent markets um the lens protocol provides access to ownership of your online presence so we all know that you know there's five billion users online and almost equal amount of social media users but we don't really have a ownership of our presence online and what we're trying to do in with lens protocol is that we're trying to bring the ownership of your online presence and the audiences you create and the connections you make to you and that has been our Focus point in creating this kind of like a social layer over blockchain what are Builders going to build this weekend what I mean you and I have talked about use cases and other things that we don't even have time to build you know that's one of the fun things about these events right because you get a whole bunch of people together where it's like you never know what you're going to see if you wanted to see one thing that could come out of this weekend what would it be I would like to see something um I mean everyone probably has an idea you know there's still people that don't have and that's okay um you know you end of the day it's an experience for you so you are the builders you know you have to decide what's exciting for you um and what's fun because you know it's it's 48 Hours you you want to make most out of it but also you want want to have a good and memorable experience I would like to see things especially on the social side um seeing some interesting algorithms being built that actually are benefiting the users so on the social media you know we always are relying on the platform's way of creating algorithms um feeds um but I think there's many alternative ways to create more transparent in public algorithms and that's very exciting thing for me to see um on the D5 side I would like to see more payment applications and mainly for the reason that um if you think about like the The Narrative of uh the blockchain you know Bitcoin was there to solve the idea of you know peer-to-peer value transfers um and store value um and when we look at the uh D5 ecosystem today uh we have a very efficient way of um exchanging value um earning yield um borrowing funds against your cryptographic assets um interest rate swaps uh for virtuals and and all that other teaching stuff but what we don't really have at the moment is a good payment infrastructure um and see payment applications and today we're here there's you know twenty thousand twenty five thousand uh uh folks here um you know and we could actually start using um stable coins to to pay for things and and overall um you know replace the current Internet infrastructure that we have now with blockchain base which brings transparency but there's there's definitely things that um we um we need to build better uh to actually um get payments into more adoption no 100 I I think I've actually seen a few projects that are actually doing that they're working on it this weekend it'd be cool to see what they do on Sunday so backstage we were talking about my day job less and you asked me what's new and I told you you had to wait because I was going to tell you what is helpful is wellopolis is a decentralized employment platform does anybody know what Oculus is do we have any obelis members here we do cool so opolis enables independent workers to have the benefits of large-scale employment without giving up their independence self-sovereign employment sound cool we all talk about self-sovereign data self-sovereign identity but the one use case that is core to every person's experience I talked about the future of work this is why I care about this stuff is employment and the existing Frameworks are incredibly paternalistic hierarchical and controlling it's not really the fluid sort of dynamic future of dows and having self-sovereign Independence so Obelisk is powering that so if you don't know now you know but I'm actually going to show you what's new yeah I want to see let's see it let's see it in time not too distant the Ethereal Galaxy is under attack the future of self-sovereignty is in danger yet a refuge emerges [Music] home to the workforce megalopolis is a galactic community of communities who value freedom and flexibility in their lives a Bastion of Freedom inhabitants of megalopolis are free to work from where with whom and how much they choose a lifestyle of choice that hasn't existed for most in the Ethereal Galaxy for many epochs choice and freedom are the disdain of the corporati and their paternalistic Overlord extractor extractables exploitative armies seek to destroy the freedom and joy of megalopolis the workforce and anyone who values individuality and Independence but there is hope a powerful Coalition is formed between many ethereal Galaxy communities the order of the Opel square has convened mirror pack as the grand stewards of megalopolis the Hopeless gray have been hand selected by their communities to protect the freedoms of the independent worker self-solverty is secure now what do y'all think so yeah it's pretty cool huh that's pretty interesting so um what do you think what are the most exciting things um you're thinking about how the future of work will occur like what are the um what are the things that excites you at the moment how we how we as um not just we Builders but the whole uh humanity is going to change in how they work in the future yeah I think work is gonna fundamentally change in ways that I think most people haven't even considered I think the biggest thing that's going to really accelerate it is the opportunity for New Economic engines so play to earn work to earn contribute to earn attention attention to earn once people have a choice to opt out of traditional systems or even opt into new systems where they didn't have opportunity previously in say underserved communities or globally it's going to change everything but the problem is if you know anything about regulators and compliance they actually don't like dealing with independent workers now there's only one reason why does anybody know taxes it is a pain in the ass for them to get you to pay your taxes now we can argue about taxes and whether or not that's even a thing we should be doing but let's just say we got to do it or we're going to go to jail right so if you don't pay your taxes it's called tax evasion in the United States and it's kind of one of those things that you don't want to get caught up in so how do you actually create a system that allows people to have this high frequency choice where I can contribute to Dows I can be a D5 contributor I can trade nfts I can play to earn I can build interesting things like what what's going to help me actually manage all that so whatopolis really does is is normalize this new future so the new future is what excites me but we have to build better tool sets and infrastructures to help people have these choices because right now the Frameworks that we have and the standard is corporate-based employment and it doesn't matter if you're here or in you're in in Europe or even throughout the world we've copied this model the corporate structure that subjugates you to a a certain relational dynamic that relational Dynamic is going to move from paternalistic to mutualistic and once it does that where the the formerly known as Employer no longer has to take on all of this risk which creates these behaviors these HR behaviors we can now have this freedom and flexibility in this choice that we haven't had before and enable people to really live much more fluid lives much more Dynamic lives much more interesting work lives because let's be honest a lot of people sitting in the typical structure aren't that happy they do it because they have to so we give people the choice to opt into a new future and building those tool sets is what excites me so whether it's governance Frameworks or social Frameworks that actually have an interesting economic engines or even boring compliance platforms that have cool cartoon characters like I mean the reason why we did this is let's be honest payroll benefits taxes and employment stuff sucks nobody gives a about that like it's not cool fun crypto stuff or AI generative art environments it's not anything like that it's boring nobody wants to do it but it's necessary so we're trying to make it more relatable more accessible to say look the self-sovereign future matters it matters a lot it matters to me I get I get the Good Fortune of living it in a lot of ways because I've built it for myself and for a lot of people around and now we're here to spread it and to build it systemically to where it's immutable and so big and powerful that nobody could possibly mess with it I think also that um you know when we think about topics like future of work like our work is changing all the time and it has it has been um changing radically since covet so I think there should be systems where you can I like the idea of opting in and opting out that you can choice choice exactly and that's that's what web3 is about you know it's not about decentralization to be honest it's not about centralization C5 defy you know it's about having a base layer you know that you know anyone can access and go for but it's it's basically Freedom of Choice you can choose you know interact directly with these interest protocols or you can choose to use something in between that provides you uh value or better experience for example no 100 I mean we we talk about this on our team all the time like in some ways we're kind of poking the bear you know proverb that you know compliance is not an area that's for the faint of heart right so we deal with a lot of interesting things a lot of questionable like how do you deal with things but at the end of the day choice is so important to where we're going with all of this Tech all of these systems all of these new opportunities that we build experiences that we build and it's it's really the Cornerstone of East Denver you all heard me talk about this last night like we don't charge for to be here we don't require that you do anything why because it's all based on choice you're here by choice where you're not here because you have to be or you paid for a ticket you feel obligated you chose to be here and we want that we think it's fundamental to The Human Experience to create to build and to ultimately usher in the right next chapter because there are alternatives that are much less optimistic interestingly this is one of like this is a bear Market where actually macroeconomics play a big role so when you think about future of work employment a lot of things are changing now you know and it's it's not just only um let's say bear Market in in the crypto but in the macroeconomical level so it's actually a good time to think about the future of work um you know how you can actually rebuild and redesign the way we um work in the society how finances participating that how social is related to that um and and how old is boxing pieces or like Legos uh could fit so and you're here so you have the opportunity to actually innovate on this all cool stuff and a bunch of other things that are uh you can you can hack on during this hackathon so one thing that I think is interesting six percent of our applicants are ux focused so how do we solve how do we solve ux and I mean I know you're not a ux expert maybe you have some thoughts on it maybe you you know know how we can answer that do you have any ideas yeah I mean yours is interesting because um U.S as a place of innovation is extremely fascinating so there's so much Innovation um in the US and so many clusters of of uh Innovation hubs that um you know it you can't really find the same level elsewhere the the challenging crypto is that you know when when you don't have necessarily clear rules you know it's um hard to innovate and and that's but that's always the case with tech so in one way I want to say is that you know if you are innovating um you know unclear in a an environment it also means at the same time um you know that you're building something new you're in the new Waters and with every technology you know you have always um you know a set of people that are seeing the technology in a positive way and some that are seeing it as a thread you know if you go back in time and think about for example where the cars were invented so there was actually laws that required uh three people to be in a car right so the driver a mechanic because cars broke down all the time and one person walking um 50 meters in front of the car and waving red flags like this right and shouting that a car is coming automobile is coming and that lasted for roughly 30 years and that was in UK in in us for example so that's just one example you know cryptography had its own battles um we had battles with with the internet and and and it's the people that actually legitimize the technology a lot of the adoption of for example world wide web and the internet happened also through universities and use cases such as research and you know it's it's all up to the people who actually are behind of the technology and what we're trying to achieve and the more positive use cases we can actually build the more adoption we get and also public approval and I I think the ethereum moving from proof of work to proof of stake is a good example where you know the uh ethereum blockchain produces less emissions which is actually also gets more approval in a more Global level and I think those kind of things move the needle in a more like a societal sphere so uh it was kind of disappointing when I found out the vitalik couldn't be here in person you know we love him he's been here almost every year he is uh obviously the the spirit animal that inspired the spirit animal of the buffer corn in some ways and um it was really kind of a sad thing I mean there's he's got a lot to say it seems like things like payments and the things user experience yeah so gosh wouldn't it be cool if maybe we could have a chat with him right now yeah but how yeah I don't know maybe we just think it wouldn't be cool you guys want to talk to vitalik should we get him here what do you think oh my God look at them you asking you shall receive fatalities get to talk to people through the Cyber amazing can you hear us okay I can can you hear me fantastic give it up for the AV guys this was not exactly the easiest thing to do so vitalik uh you know recently you've been talking a lot about things like payments in ux and you know adoption type of things um you know Stanley and I've been talking about building in a bear market and you know we'd like to hear a little bit more about your uh thoughts on say ux and like what what are the next steps for this do you do you think you got it in here to give us a little bit there uh yeah um so I think uh just uh start off kind of the the general big framework that I have for what we need to be doing over the next 10 years right is basically that the 2010s were a decade of uh very early stage Discovery lots of theory lots of Fury base level infrastructure and uh applications you know largely focused on basically existing crypto Geeks and people who really wants to early adopt stuff and the next 10 years are going to have to be in the decade of like actually getting to um you know real use cases that are actually directly you know usable in very concrete Ways by yeah we know millions of people including people who have uh who would otherwise have nothing to do with crypto um and you know people like this exist in all parts of the world right like practical need for crypto is uh in a lot of cases stronger invoices like say yeah you know Latin America and Africa and Southeast Asia than it is in places like the US right uh because uh you know you yes you can get the platform that's answered in those things but at the same time you know the and if the average case is that you know there are pancakes and stuff said that yeah they do kind of work but in a lot of these other places like even that is just totally not true right and a lot of those regions depend a lot more on International transactions whether it's for business or businesses or other things and uh you know traditional ways of doing things across countries just don't even exist yet right so there's a much more severe International problems um much more severe problems with the local centralized infrastructure and just all of these things right um but at the same time I think it's important to acknowledge that you know crypto in its current form still has a lot of problems um with regard to its ability to be used in these places right and then like later on I'll talk in a bit more detail about this but uh they basically yeah you know lots of people would want in America use uh you know cryptocurrency including ethereum and how do lots of them use it well often the answer is why yes right and you know on the one hand I think you know we have to be yeah appreciative to finance for just being there when you know none of the other big Global providers are in many cases and just providing them some way that people can go and actually use things but at the same time I think it's uh also importance for the ecosystem to move toward more decentralization and you know we have to ask the question of uh like how can we actually improve the decentralization or how can we actually improve the yeah user experience of the decentralized approaches and like actually get the decentralized approaches to the points where people are willing to like really yeah you know use them and not get scared as soon as they're saying yeah the first time that they see a problem yeah so uh metallic you got about 15 more minutes of stuff for us right so I think stani and I are gonna guarantee it yeah yeah we're gonna step off the stage and I just wanted to say um the buffer corn misses you and demands a hug the next time you come okay I was instructed to tell you this so I'm sorry well next time I come I am happy to hug the uh buffer corn and uh and Ethan any friends at the buffer Court ends up making what by the time the next one comes around I will we will hold you to that so thank you so much for spending your really early early morning with us and uh we'll give the stage to you and then after he's done that's a wrap so um take it away vitalik sounds good okay um let's see what we can do there um do you guys do you guys see the sharing testing one two three just want to confirm that people are seeing the slides and hearing and hearing me seeing me will be nice but a bit less important yes we are seeing this amazing okay so the great challenge is in user experience right so I think as I kind of said in my introduction you know lots of people have a clear and deep need for ethereum based applications today these tools that we're building are you know tools that are not just a providing and opportunity for people to um you know have fun and uh kind of Express their love for freedom and for freedom and decentralization as ideals and make money and lose money and all of those things these are things that like lots of people even people who have no attachments to these principles like actually just really need to hear and so lots of people are using them sometimes these applications are currency but other times that it's also more complicated things that people get interested in like I was recently on a trip to Africa and I was actually surprised by just how much interest there was in the concept of Taos so like the concept of local groups coming together and creating some kind of Circle of trust is like something that is uh already native to a lot of uh criminal cultures there which has uh you know I thought was something fascinating right and uh you know today it's uh payments I expect that um you know ZK based things or things that people are going to start having a need for in the future even the whole ethereum identity ecosystem at some point but the problem today is that a lot of people are accessing these things using sexualized Services Etc services are convenient they do the job but ultimately centralized services in my view especially when like sexualized Services into these really core positions of control where they're not just um you know on the side providing a useful tool like either scan but they're like really yeah running the experience like they're they're ultimately not the end goal of crypto right and uh I think in general um you know we yeah we know what the problems with centralized services at their worst can be right uh so uh I'm sure people have seen um you know this guy I uh I mean I saw on uh on the Twitter that there was apparently even some toilet paper of him uh but uh you know people trusted a guy the guy because the guy looks professional and uh the guy said the right things the guy yeah virtue saying told his love of social impacts the guy even virtue signaled the version of the social impact uh meme that appeals to nerds and uh you know he wants on panels with a lovely chaps like Bill Clinton um and you know it turns out that he had double spending relations with people's Assets Now this is um I think was correctly identified by a lot of people as uh really showing the risk of uh just being okay with uh Senator relying on centralized services at a large scale right but uh you know the challenge is that uh if we want people to actually use decentral uh decentralized Services we have to like really address the challenges and understand why they are not winning right now and the two big reasons are basically one fee is two user experience now fees we're not going to talk about because uh fees are being solved by way or two scaling and Roll-Ups and optimism arbitrum polygons scroll typos darknet a ZK sync and that whole ecosystem and uh eip4844 and dank sharding and proto-dink sharding and we've kind of heard that whole story user experience is the other really big and important piece uh so uh a bit of a personal story so a year ago I went to a coffee shop in Argentina right and the coffee shop accepted um had an owner who recognized me and um you know had a crypto wallet and so we you know asked if we could pay an eth and we did and you know it was a really lovely interaction and you know we all enjoyed it but at the same time some of the details of like actually attempting to make the transaction from my side um you know showed what some of the issues are right so uh fees were high right so uh transaction fee is just a sense of if while I was on this visit in 2021 we're somewhere between one and five dollars in 2022 they dropped down to below one dollars now they're finally picking back up again and you know we're I think cheering that our ultrasounds money is ultrasound again but we also have to remember that the flip side of that is that it is again more expensive to send transactions uh transactions uh take a long time to get accepted on chain what's equal extend you have to wait a long time for it to get accepted and once the transaction is accepted there's even problems on the merchant side or the application of the recipient Services often don't see the transaction immediately like even when they have a facility to show transactions that are unconfirmed they often don't even show it unconfirmed for some amount of time so uh sub ux hurdles there now ep1559 um it is uh generally viewed as an efficiency improvements reform and as the thing that created the whole ultra sound money thing but I think it's important to remember one of the ways in which the efficiency improving side of it manifests which is that it massively reduces waiting times for people trying to send transactions right um so uh blue here is before ap1559 yeah um this yellow orangey color is after ap1559 average waiting times decreased by a lot and uh both like in theory and in my own personal observation the merge actually decreased waiting times even more right by making block times more stable it's reduced the average amount of time you have to wait until the next block from 13 seconds to six seconds and uh Roll-Ups with pre-conformations could potentially make you know some kind of initial confirmation of a payments pretty close to instant so lots of things actually happening on the transaction accepting front right but this is not the only problem so back in 2013 uh when I was visiting San Francisco for the first time and this was around the time when I was writing the ethereum white paper and uh so at the time ethereum did not exist yet and so I you know it was you know excited about Bitcoin and I yeah remember that I was told that there was a Suave sushi place beside the internet archive that accepted uh Bitcoin for payments so I went there and I paid in Bitcoin but the pro mobiles that want to try to make the payments my internet did not work right and after my internet did not work I uh basically kept trying kept trying and eventually I had to um basically walk over about 50 meters to get closer to the internet archive hop on to Leonardo archives Wi-Fi and uh sends the transaction consumer internet is not 100 reliable my internet on like literally my smartphone is not 100 reliable like there are just times when it stops working for some number of seconds and this is just a thing that happens to people um so how do we solve this right what happens when a conserver tries to pay in person and uh the internet doesn't work so auction one is uh you know make Merchants could just have Wi-Fi and consumers could connect to the merch of Wi-Fi but this is kind of slow and cumbersome when you have to like figure things out and Fiddle with passwords these days you can scan QR codes which is a bit better but even still and then there is my preferred solution to this which is uh like this is one of these things that uh feels like something that like would make an apple engine uh UI designer scream because it's just because it just feels ugly and it's not Sleek but like in my opinion it's just obviously the correct thing to do and uh you know it doesn't try to be optimal it tries to be robust and it tries to just provide Clear Solutions even when things fail basically your wallet as a sender it should Auto detect if your connection to the internet fails and if that happens it should show the signed transaction as a QR code and then the merchant can just scan the QR code and on the merchant side The Merchants app can automatically broadcast the transaction and the merchant can check the transaction locally and if the merchant accepts it then you know of course the merchant would be able to just uh immediately accept the payment so if we do this right then we don't have to rely on necessarily consumers having great internet you have a backup option only relying on the merchants having great internet and if you do this then um you know Merchants are more likely to have reliable internet than consumers are they are a business as they are you know in one place they have Wi-Fi and all and and all of these things and like this would considerably improve the user experience for people trying to make payments right so like I would just love to see more wallets just automatically again you know have this as an option moving beyond payments uh social recovery and small T6 so I have been a big fan of social recovery for years I've been a big fan of multi-six for years literally my money is on the line right like my yeah the bulk of my own EF is in a multi-sig wallet and that has um you know most of the key is controlled by you know other people who are Guardians and I think things like this are unnecessary innovation in account security for regular users right regular users are not going to be able to do a good job with 12 word passphrases and not accidentally forgetting them or losing them again I remember when I was uh still um not yet using my multisig and I created a clever scheme where I basically randomly generated two numbers that added up to my private key and uh you know help them in different places and uh separately had a backup and like even then I was almost like scared every day that something would happen to um you know one and then I we've got uh I would have to figure out whether or not the backup works and you know maybe the backup would not work either right and and like I personally just feel so much better with a multi-sig um so I think this stuff is uh necessary innovation in account security it go beyond trying to rely on just yourself for regular users and it needs to be done well right so uh one of the nightmare stories that I had is uh I remember a few years ago this was uh before covet I was beta testing a social recovery wallet that was not using the smart contract based approach they were using the approach where they uh basically secret shared your private key and they sent A Shard of your private key to your guardians but the problem is that this required your Guardians to install a custom app and they have a communication Channel directly with them and that Communication channel ended up free bullet breaking and then when as the Guardians just live their lives because they use their app for this only this one purpose they would inevitably end up forgetting it when they switched phones and you know eventually I with money right so uh any like my strong view was that any of these recovery things like should not require Guardians to have custom infrastructure they should just be based on Guardians existing eth addresses now remaining questions one is how do we help non-etherium users safely be Guardians so uh what if you know you want your mom to be a guardian but she doesn't have an ethereum account yet um still an unsolved ux problem maybe for that particular case you want to create an option to rely on piggyback off of something other than an ethereum accounts but then the question is like what would it be and uh you know one option might be that if you have like three non-etherium users as Guardians then uh one of them guards by having some like a private key stored on you know iCloud and other one Guardians by having their private Keys stored on you know like 10 cents cloud and a third on um you know something that's geopolitically independent from both of those and so that way you get to be yeah you know both have enough protection against anyone something happening continue is one individual Guardian but also um you know you're not actually relying on like any one specific uh one of these uh Cloud providers to be safe right and you have I mean your uh company diversification and jurisdictional diversification and all of these things uh but privacy this is a big one um some of the people that I've talked to when I suggested to them that they use multi-sig they have responded with the critique that they did not want Guardians to know what assets they have right and this is just an important Financial privacy thing for them this uh can be solved so there are ways to set up a multi-sig or a social recovery wallet in such a way that the Guardians don't actually know what they're guarding and this can and should be done I mean there is an easy version where they don't know until they actually have to you know recover something but there's a harder version where they don't know even after that and then the last thing is just like social norms around authentication right which is you know if you uh ask someone to be your guardian they need to know that if you ask them to help you send a transaction or recover your key they should not accept immediately just because you sent them a telegram message because well if that's the norm then someone could steal your wallet just by hacking your telegram right so uh you know the education part of this is that they need to remember that they have to ask you something that only you would know right like one simple thing is just like to ask them about a specific detail of the you know last time that you uh did something together in person so um social recovered multi-6 um privacy is another big one privacy is still important privacy is still a human right and privacy continues to be a key protection against powerful institutions at their worst and privacy is something that modern networks technology does not have by default and so we have to have we try harder now um I mean uh recently made this tweet and uh you know I'm announcing that there's gonna be private this uh privacy polls be zero the sequel to Rainbow cache which I think is great right but at the same time one of the things that's important to really make sure with privacy is that it's very important to make the Privacy actually be private even in the hands of people who are not perfect who sometimes screwed up right like uh in some like me and him himself just to give an example you know he's also been uh you know very supportive of uh Iranians uh you know fighting against their authoritarian government and uh you know I think it's a yeah great and uh on honorable cause and you know absolutely yeah I know it stands with all the women who uh who wants to have their life and freedom there um but uh at the same time it's uh you know if you think about the intersection of these two things like this gets into the point where we're using privacy technology to like do some real serious right this is not kind of idealistically larving privacy and this is like actually using privacy to protect people and so we don't just need to think about privacy as uh something that where we just think about it in the abstract and we know we have zero knowledge proofs and all of these things but you know really need to think about like really what is the concrete privacy what is the threat model are we sure that people are who use you know cryptocurrency and Z cash and various privacy tools are that are important are not actually you know accidentally going to uh lose their privacy because they just accidentally do one thing that they should and like I am like I personally yeah you've actually uh accidentally uh broke my privacy by yeah you know fumbling around with a tornado the runway about a year and a half ago so uh you know this is a an important thing to guard against right it's like easy to accidentally leak data even if you're using fancy deck one of my viewers is that I think uh more wallets probably need to think about this more explicitly like you want better separation of profiles and wallets probably more deep defaults toward one wallet per application um what other idea yeah I can talked about recently in my blog is a stealth addresses and stealth addresses of something that like would really need some deep wallet level integration well it should have more directed uh integration of privacy tools um another thing is just better defenses against the off-chain side of tracking and finally yeah you know better defenses against antherium node providers seeing everything right and you know these are things that I think we can improve on but these are things that we actually should improve on a lot so middle key questions again right so 2010s were the decade of theory uh 2020s or the decade of uh building out large-scale adoption and there's important obstacles to this and um fees are a really big one but user experience is also a really big one and I know it's important to like actually yeah keep working on these uh really specific user experience issues and to finish one sociological note I think yeah this all shows one of the reasons why it's important for core developers wallet developers client developers application developers to get out more right like if your city has a place that accepts you know payment for Ethan person like actually go to it and like actually support them um you know pay for something with youth in person uh pay for something with eth online um you know use your ens name to do stuff like I mean you know actually here's all of these different uh applications more once in a while and uh you know this will just I think give you all this you know better and much more practical view of like what really are the yeah the missing pieces that are annoying people and um you know if you have friends then you know try to convince your friends to use ethereum for um you know online and in person um you know payments and other applications and um you know see yeah what kinds of problems they encounter right so uh you know hope I hope that over the next few years this is something that we can that we can do more of thank you thank you vitalik we really appreciate you taking the time my friend