ETHTaipei X Vitalik Buterin: Fireside chat hosted by ChangWu

so today I will um ask him bunch of question around the mass adoption okay so what I think uh the most two uh important challenge for now for Mass adoption one is scaling and the other is how do we import the user uh to have a friendly wallet so for scaling uh scaling actually is one we want to have a we want to make a transaction more cheaper and a uh and uh can uh running fast so what is uh to you brief introduction give a brief introduction of the lower in the layer two throughout to the audience okay here so if your roll up is uh basically a system that looks like a yeah like feels to the user like a blockchain you can send transactions to a roll-up transaction to get executed inside a rollup except all of the computation and most of the data is done off chain the only thing that's done on chain in a roll-up is that there is a small amount of data and proving that's happening on chain and the goal of this is that a roll-up gets the same level of security as a anything that is happening on the blockchain itself but because most of the data and all of the computation is happening off-chain you get a much higher level of scalability so this is a scaling solution that increases the number of transactions the ethereum ecosystem can process and at the same time reduces transaction fees so does this means we can have a cheaper transaction and with a higher TPS so in your opinion what is your favorite layer 2 solution right now uh maybe I I will change my question uh okay um okay another question is okay we always heard from our other I mean layer 2 Solutions someone said let's the sequential right now is more centralized so how do you see this problem yeah okay so maybe just uh like for introduce what a sequencer is basically yeah Roll-Ups because the transactions do not go Unchained directly they go into this other room first and so that system itself needs some way of agreeing on what order it's accepting transactions in and the simplest way to do this unfortunately is to have one server that accepts transactions and then puts those transactions together into batches that are called blocks there are other and more decentralized ways of doing this but they take more time to implement they require you to have a consensus algorithm they're more complex and so right now people are just like for their initial versions going with a centralized sequencer I mean my opinion is that decentralizing sequencing is not the first priority I think it's the second priority I think the first priority should be I like hardening the proof systems right because right now all of the Roll-Ups that are in place like they still either don't actually rely on their like proofs or they have some kind of override mechanism like they have some kind of Security Council or something else like there's still some group of people that can override the proof in case the proof has a bug right but this also means that that group of people actually has kids roll over the system and so I think we need to really focus hard on like every LA or two team needs to like we do this Focus hard on getting to the point where the underlying proof technology actually is a trustworthy and secure enough that you don't need to have these like extra I'm like override mechanisms or at the least you can give them much less power right so like one example of how that might work is that you might have two different proof systems and your Security Council or whatever your override mechanism is would only have the power to decide if those two proof systems disagree with each other right so that's uh something that I I think I mean a lawyer series really need to spend a lot of time working on uh but then once that is done then I mean obviously the next major goal should be uh to avoid having a relying on a centralized sequencer and really getting to the point where the roll-up can survive and can keep running even if the entity that's building the roll up uh like what it whoever the company or the organization is completely disappears right and I think we're still quite some time away from that but we're definitely yeah and starting to get closer and like there's decentralized sequencer designs that are like very under understandable how they work in theory like I feel like in theory we basically understand the problem but like actually implementing it is a big challenge right and these people like the teams building these projects they have a lot of experience working on either fraud proofs or zero knowledge proofs and uh you know like writing evm in weird languages but they don't yet have experience doing consensus algorithms and so I expect it will take some time but like that's okay that's uh you know it'll I it um it's uh something that the ecosystem just needs to work on and I think in a couple of years it'll be solves do yeah I agree I think that decentralization is good but uh since we are doing learning uh some experiments on layer 2 solution so even though it's uh kind of sequence is kind of a centralized but that it doesn't mean the security is not guaranteed on the maintenance so you yeah it should be fine but I think that most of people let me I mean misunderstand uh decentralization and their centralization so yeah I just want to clarify that this is the point and okay so the next question uh is about the uh the Eastern uh Cancun because uh since we are talking about the layer 2 Solutions so of course we want to make in the transaction fee lower so what how do you expect the next half work we will we can um yeah so the main feature of the next hard Fork is eip4844 which is also known as proto-jung sharding and the idea of proto-digic charting is create some extra space that goes in there like anyone can put data into that space and this is data that cannot be viewed by transactions it cannot be executed directly but the data space is useful to in order to allow layer twos such as Roll-Ups to use it and because Roll-Ups are ultimately Limited in scalability by the amount of data that they can put on chain in a way that guarantees it will be available and so 4844 is a way to do this in the short term but also in the long term it builds toward a future where we have much more scalability because there is this technology called Data availability sampling that will allow users to verify the pre the availability of the data in a block without having to download all of that data in 4844 is designed in a way that's like very forward compatible with data availability sampling right so once you have 4844 you don't need any more hard Forks to do data availability sampling the only thing you would need is you would need to just increase the parameter for how many blocks there are in a blobs there are in a block and everything else can happen separately with client development cool so um okay so yeah let things like we can expect the next half look okay so we will move to next section which is a user experience friendly wallet so I think it uh on the previous section you you guys already talked about a construction so I think it is a very hot topic for a whole uh ecosystem so could we give a brief introduction what is difference between the eoa and account instruction so eoa stands for externally owned account meaning it's an account that is owned by a private key and the private key is external and that it's like outside of ethereum it's like you have the private key and if you have the private key then you can send any transaction from that account and so you own all of the assets that that account controls and if you lose the private key your ability to control the account is gone and if someone else has the private key they can steal all the assets so eoa is the most basic type of account the other type of accounts that exists in ethereum today is a contract right it's an account that is controlled by a piece of code um and this is how like basically in all ethereum applications are I'm implemented but like contracts can also be used to specify the rules for um how you can spend from an account right so like even today there exists uh like smart contracts that are multi-sig wallets right so good news is safer which is now called safe is a a good implementation of this so basically yeah what a multicuality is is let's see wallet that has multiple keys and so for example you could have a wallet that has six keys and you need any four of them to send a transaction from that account and these different keys they can be owned by either different devices that you control or different people or different institutions or some combination of all three and multisig wallets are used both by organizations like the ethereum foundation uses a multi-sig wallet to hold most of its funds and individuals like I use a multi sequel to hold most of my funds um and uh like they're just the main value was just that they were much more secure right because there isn't like one single magic number on your computer where if you lose it your money is gone and if it gets stolen your money is also gone now what account abstraction does is it's a set of Standards or like protocol features that allow you to use contracts uh contract wallets to send transactions directly right so what I mean by this is that right now you cannot do this right now when I wants to send a transaction from my Nosa safe I have to first have a separate externally owned account and I have to have eth in that eoa to pay for gas and then I send operations through that Ela the eoa pays for the gas and then it sends a message to the smart contract heating the signatures and then the smart contract does what it needs to do this adds a lot of unnecessary complexity because you have to like one pay the extra 21 000 gas for the eoa um two you need to have your eth both in this wallet and in this wallet um and like you can try to do fancy things and always refill it but then what if the gas price goes up a lot and before you thought you had enough money here but now you don't have enough money here so there's just a lot of complexity involved and so what account attraction you can just uh you you would be able to use the smart contract wallet as the origin of your transaction directly and it would be the smart contract wallet that would pay for the gas um so make things much more convenient in that way and basically make smart contract wallets a first class Citizen and sort of pave the path toward them becoming a default so that everyone can can use to store their funds now account obstruction has a long uh history as a as I've kind of mentioned right like it started actually back in even 2015 and over the last uh eight years we've come closer to closer to understand you're standing like what is an acute abstraction standard that simultaneously gives users enough of the things that they actually need and is practical to implement and is uh like actually safe from the perspective of the protocol and the desire to preserve uh decentralization and all of these goals right and that line of research eventually ended up with the current version of erc4337 plus the road map which aims to First actually turn erc4337 back into being a protocol feature over time and do that first on lawyer twos and then do that on layer one right so this is something that's uh still um still evolving but the plan is to evolve but in a yell in a way that's fully backwards compatible and it's possible to build an erc4337 wallet uh today and lots of people already yeah are doing that yeah I think here in Taiwan we have another water team called bottle they are building uh yeah yeah they organized the events in Paris like I know it was good to see them waiting on that cool yeah just like Vitalia mentioned next uh so far if we want to create a wallet uh you need to secure your private key and for the general user this is a challenge uh problem so uh and another another part and another uh key thing that we can do is just like a a red pocket uh but for a concentration if you want to have a red pocket like compound then you can create or pre-compute or ages then we can send the new users some money or token so this is really a good user experience to import a new user I try to I try to summarize some of the problem of a conversation so yeah so let's talk about edges okay uh since the very different very uh different thing from the eoa and the computation is a construction is a country one so since it's a country wallet the ages is not just like the eoa it's a public key encoding uh format it's it's uh it might be changed if we deploy a different core uh contract code so how do we I mean educate user uh one one day in the future maybe like this is not the same address just like they used to use right I mean I think uh like if you keep things within one single chain so like it can be done in a way that's a relatively simple in the sense that like you can always convert any away into an account abstraction wallet that has the exact same functionality right um so it's possible to do that but like that actually requires a lot of like features that don't exist yet like like one is uh you need an EIP that allows eoas to convert themselves into smart contract wallets um and then two is you need adapts to like actually follow a lot of Standards like there's been a collection of eaps whose goal it is to basically let smart contract wallets do the same kinds of things that people use Airways to do that go beyond uh just uh like signing transactions so for example there's EIP 1271 which allows it to allows uh smart quad track wallets to sign messages right and recently a lot of adapts rely heavily on off-chain messages so this is very important then there is EIP I believe it's 6900 um which is which basically allows smart contract wallets that have not yet been put on chain to also make a ERC yeah 1271 messages right so there's this problem that's called a counter factual addresses right basically yeah this is something that eoas already have by defaults right which is that like if you just start using ethereum for the first time and you download a wallet then like how do I send you money right because like you can generate an address and you can send me that address and uh like you can we we can do this without you having to perform any action on chain to register that address right and this is important because registering an address would take transaction fees and like that's something that you would not be able to do if you not yet have if but to receive if you need to have to have it so like if this was not or give this feature did not exist then like the only way to join ethereum would be to find a friend who already is uses it which would have limited adoption right so the with your ways this is very simple because the address is just a hash of a public key and so you can just make addresses whenever you want with a smart contractor wallet there is this EIP um I think it was at EAP 1014 for called a create two which allows you to make an address which is the hash of a piece of code and the and the piece of code basically specifies the like the the conditions for initializing that wallet right which specify um you know the code is the wallet will have and some initial parameters like what the initial keys are for example right and so then what we're able to do is we're able to say if let's say you um one uh open up a uh wallet that supports um like smart contract accounts for the first time you can locally generate what your address will be and then you can send me that address and then I can send you coins and then with it within your first transaction you'll be able to create the accounts that will exist at that address and uh like that because that address e is the hash or a piece of code the only thing that can exist at that address is the piece of code that you already specified right so someone else can't like come in before you and like you link the money right um so you'll be able to within one transaction uh create that account and then immediately make your first like operation going from that account right so same user experience as you always all done kind of under the hood right and so that's another thing that needs to be done I'm also encryption like uh like I think especially once we start doing more zero knowledge stuff and more decentralized social and more of these things like uh people will start using accounts as encryption keys and this is also something that actually I'm not sure whether or not there is an EOC for this yet right but like like there is an ERC for stealth addresses which is a very similar concept to encryption but I think uh there need no needs if there isn't there needs to be an arc for encryption right but like these standards exist but dapps do so far not a very good job of supporting them right like there's this really annoying habit where everyone just assumes that you use a better mask and like you don't even need to have a smart contract while it's run into problems like often I use my Brave wallet and which is just a regular eoa wallet as well and even a brave wall that has problems right so like these are just things that dapps need to fix and we need to yell at the apps to make sure that they fix them and one of those areas where adoption could probably only grow over over time but you know that's fine um then right so that's one that's why we have one chain right yeah some of the challenge comes in once we have this kind of like multi-domain multi-l2 world right yeah and uh they're the challenge is that like you know you have your different objects that are on different domains and uh in some of those cases you might not be able to have the same address everywhere yeah uh and uh I mean there's two challenges like one is how we do addressing and then the other is like if you one of the advantages of a smart contract wall is that you can change your keys but if you change your keys then like how do you make sure that information actually propagates to all the layer twos and so there is an approach by which like this data can be like the data about your keys can be stored either only or one or in a specialized way or two um and then that information can be kind of propagated through to the other Layer Two is um you know using either zero knowledge proofs or sometimes a much simpler technology um but this is something that needs to like actually yeah you know be implemented and that's uh pretty challenging and there's like different moving parts and so this is an area where different layers of the ecosystem are going to really need to cooperate uh to make sure that we do a good job but I think the big message to wallet makers today is like if you're making a wallet you are making a lawyer 2 wallet there is no point in making a wallet that is not a layer too well right and I think we're seeing projects uh really yeah moving that way and uh building a wallet that's like really tries to Think Through account abstraction issues and leader to scaling users at the same time so we're making progress yeah since we have we have a different layer 2 solution and the sum of the layer 2 solutions they are not uh they are not even compatible so each which we can uh imagine this this uh the value edges should be not the same so maybe I think the ens would be a kind of solution that we can so like just like I forgot the EIP is off -term resolver yeah ccip yeah right okay well so right so what ccip does is it lets you have ens names on Layer Two right which is also important because if users are going to live on a layer two then like we want their ens to also live on Layer Two right but that's where the ens lives there's also like what the ens represents right right and like one of the ideas is to have the ens represent also not just your layer one address but also what your addresses are in the major layer twos I do think that there is a problem with this approach which is that like it doesn't have this property of being friendly to new users right because if you join for the first time like you you do not yet have an ens name right right and then there's the other aspect which is that like it should be possible for someone to change their name without moving everything to a different profile right and so like I think there was good Arguments for there to be some kind of other abstraction that like is still some kind of cryptographic hash right so it's still some kind of address and so that way you could still generate it offline without needing to publish anything with the chain like in kind of like you know sit between um ens and uh represent not just your Azure SS and all of these different layer twos but also potentially your addresses inside of some of the Privacy systems that are being created and stealth addressing systems and all kinds of other things okay so another I think I went through about signing message because uh uh with the upcoming Obsession we usually just need to assign the message to represent their intention so this means the signing my Institute uh it's not necessary it should be in uh in transaction format it could be any phone of the text right yeah just like email or you know like uh social messaging so we can use Telegram and to to say I want to transfer dystopia but okay okay like we're trying to compete with telegram I mean okay if you want to make the telegram account one of your five Keys then that's fine but not more than one of five please but I'm not saying using the telegram key I'm saying that you see the uh private key securing those oh it's secure elements no but we still can silent message only any kind of yeah yeah I think you know if you want to use like private keys that are in a secure element on your phone or something and then I like I think that's great okay so from my view I think that um since a conversation is a contract wallet it's really not like to uh a traditional wallet we need to we only need to secure the private key so I'm thinking maybe in the future I'm not quite sure how how many teams can implement the contract securely do you think this should be an issue yeah I mean my general philosophy is as we need to be writing as little code as possible and reusing as much code as possible which is one reason why I'm happy that like so far there's so much so many people who are using canosa safe and even the safe team has uh you know been growing in their willingness to embrace and work around erc4337 and so you know there's going to be more uh kind of progress on integrating those uh those over time so uh yes like I think it's uh good basically every wallet um create or should by default be using the same code unless they have some specific reason to want something special right so like for example you know if you want to have something where like one of your four backups is some fancy zero knowledge proof that verifies like your Twitter then like okay you can do that right and that requires custom code though even there the only thing custom is the proven key right like the actual plug verifier or whatever you use something that exists right uh so trying to yeah minimizing code reuse is good people working together on code is uh good auditing and affordable formal verification and code is good potentially in the longer term there might be more features that we have to like actually bring into the protocol right so like one example of this is the erc4337 entry points which is uh like the central thing that like actually calls out to all of the different accounts in a bundle and and calls to verify them and then calls to execute like that itself as the the current roadmap is to turn that into a protocol feature um so yeah if like I think those are the strategies to try to get more security yeah and I think that we need to have more social collaboration on the standardization yeah yes we do and that's something that I've been pushing a lot it's something yeah I think we need more uh you know a dedicated wallet events like uh you know like there have been research and development retreats to talk about ethereum protocol stuff right for a long time right like the most recent one was you know in Austria back in January about a hundred people ethereum Foundation researchers everyone from the execution clients everyone from the consensus clients um you know I came together um and like that's not the only one of these right and like things like this have been happening for years already which is good like maybe we need something similar for major wallet developers right like maybe yeah you know like every time there's a major ethereum event like there should also be a yeah you know wallet wallet time you know like standards and co-building workshops happening uh at the same time right so you know it's a you know compete on the things where it makes sense to differentiate but like uh you know like base like security and ecosystem standards should be for everyone um yeah and uh like I'm hopeful that we can keep improving on this that's great it reminds me that we we have or um we had a shot in Russia here diversity cry in 2018 maybe we can run another one yeah okay so here okay so we prepare some of the questions that are proposed by our audience uh okay so it is hard for you to read that's okay um do you think that my do I think that much L2 is needed I mean yes because we need scalability okay one out of three done this is easy yeah your recent article talked about L3 landscape in the future do you think l2s or the end of the day would become a proof aggregator also do you think there is going to be L4 L5 um I think no tale force and l5s but okay so here's where like my view on how I think the like higher layer space is going to evolve right I think realistically for quite a long time the L1 will continue to be the home of like major Financial stuff like it'll be the place where the million dollar monkeys happen and like where people trade um you know one kind of dog coin for another dog coin and that's fine um I think but and it'll also be the home that like actually yeah manages the proof systems of all the lawyers and all the other stuff layer twos will I expect to be the place where most Financial things for normal people happen because what your twos have low enough fees and they have the high security that they demand then I expect that there will be a whole range of systems that have different kinds of partial security guarantees right so layer threes are often like this right like if you look at like even like some of the validiums that are running inside of a stark net for example right like what a validium does is basically yeah easy system that says the there is an operator and the operator can disappear and they can't steal your money but and they can freeze your money but they cannot steal your money right right so they can disappear and they can make the system stall but they cannot make the system do something incorrect and I actually expect that what's going to happen is uh like one oh obviously yeah you know we've seen cello and I expect there's going to be a lot of l1s looking to try to become l2s but also I expect there is going to be a lot of centralized systems that will be interested in becoming l-3s right now why all three is and not L2 is because l2s still have fees and a lot of these systems have like very high scalability needs and so they're going to be too high even for l2s but like the kinds of systems that I mean are like Enterprise stuff for example right like remember you know for a long time we've had this whole ethereum Enterprise thing and we've been trying to do private chains and you know Consortium chains but like that effort ended up failing just because like it's already M chains Just Can't Get Enough legitimacy it's uh like really be accepted it can't really benefit from enough um you know a developer Network effects and all of these things but I think what can make sense is for all of those applications that you know the Enterprise cool people were saying should run on kids already M chains five years ago those should become l3s now why imagine you're and you know you're an Enterprise application today you're running on a server you have hundreds of thousands of transactions a second your developers are either lazy or they're just too scared to change a system that already runs 20 billion dollars in people's money and so you might not be willing to turn into being a blockchain thing but what you will be able real willing to do is run an extra piece of software that's allowed to call into your existing piece of software generate Merkle trees generate ziki snarks proving your state Transitions and publish the roots and the proofs to chain and then if you do that you get extra security guarantee it's because people can see your Miracle proofs and then individual users you'll be will be able to get Merkel branches from the API and they'll be able to prove like hey look in the look in this database I actually already have a you know here's a record that some like uh shipment is already coming to me through the postage system and it'll be here in 24 days and therefore I should be allowed to take a loan against it and like it has a Merkel branch and it proves that it's like over here in the supply chain and uh you'll be able to do that um [Music] and you'll have the zero knowledge proofs that are proving that the database actually is being updated correctly right so we can have Financial stuff depend on it and be confident that it's not going to get hacked right right um and so but the you get benefits right and like you get probably about as many benefits as you would get from running on a Consortium chain but you have even more scalability because if all you're doing is you keep your server you're just making proofs there's no limit to scalability you keep your privacy because the data is still there and you only need to give the data to the people who need to see it but at the end at the same time like like you're keeping your existing workflow right you're not replacing software you're adding extra an extra package that calls into your existing thing and publishes some extra information so I think for a lot of Enterprises this will be good and it'll be good for like boring install G Enterprises that that analog or run human civilization like supply chain things but I think it'll also be good for gaming um there's a lot of uh existing games that I think would be interested in putting proofs on chain and you know Xerox Parkers obviously it's been doing a lot of experimentation around that with things like dark forest and I expect to see a lot more games that are like this um and I yeah I think it's changes it's also good built down the layer 2 solution yeah yeah exactly right so I think some of them will be Layer Two some of them will be layer 3s right and I think that's uh fine right but like the point is that like what we basically have now is like we have an upgrade path where things are not part of ethereum lands today can become part of ethereum lands and benefit from the security benefit from the uh share ecosystem um but at the same time like you know keep the mo what basically all of their existing workflow right and I think that's amazing cool the third question do you think the Los Angeles similar to Cosmos or political layer one validates have to run variously to cry at the same time which eventually lead to the centralizer yes I guess there is okay so just to explain it I think the reason why some of these questions are connected is a beast rollup is this idea that you have a roll up where um instead of having like some off-chain sequencing mechanism you have a mechanism where anyone is allowed to submit batches of transactions and so basically yeah the layer one essentially controls which you know the inclusion of transactions in Layer Two and this is nice because if the layer 1 is censorship resistance this immediately guarantees the layer two assessorship resistance it like really minimizes the amount of infrastructure that the layer 2 has to build but they're like it really pushes a lot of centralization risk on the layer one right now there's a centralization risk on where you're one already right and this is all why we've been talking for so long about things like proposed to build or separation right we are basically yeah you can have specialized actors that can generate the block contents um and then block proposers instead of having to do all of that themselves they just accept bits from different people who are creating these blog contents and uh then they accept whatever the highest bid is and and so they don't have to do any work except for choosing which number is the highest number right and like there's challenges around like making sure we have censorship resistance for example and so there's been a lot of research recently on what's called inclusion list which is where the proposer still chooses which transactions have to get included in the next slot um but then or in either the current slot or the next slide and then but then it's up to builders to like figure out the order and figure out what what other transactions to include right so this is um so if you have like a well-running PBS infrastructure then we're twos would not be a centralization risk so we are one validation because all of that work would be done by Builders now do we necessarily fully trust that like PBS all work perfectly right no and so this is actually part of why like I personally am less enthusiastic about base Roll-Ups like I actually believe in independent sequencing and one of the reasons why I believe in independent sequencing is because I think there is value in the layer one being slower right like we are one today has a slow block time 12 seconds and I actually think in the future it makes sense for it to become even slower especially once we do single SWOT finality like I think there's value in it layer one just having a 32 seconds to what time we are every Squad actually finalizes and then layer twos they can do pre-conformations and they can process their pre-confirmations much more quickly right but they could have like blocks every one second and for regular user activity this might actually be good enough in a lot of cases right so this that is uh you know something that I like if if that happens then one of the side benefits is basically the centralization pressure from sequencing gets taken off of layer one and gets moved to layer twos and potentially if everything moves to Layer Two is then likely or one votes have centralization pressure at all it might not even need PBS but like I think that's pretty unlikely right which is why I think uh PBS is good anyway but like what that would result in at the end is basically I think in architecture similar to Cosmos except you have shared security right and like that to me is their goal yeah yes yeah we still have a bunch of questions uh this is about Society of did yeah um I mean I think that's uh right using zero knowledge proves to verify National ideas I mean I think that's good and that's really cool I mean I think in this era of AI is becoming more powerful I think having more ways for people to prove that they're people is uh going to be very important and I mean there's a lot of crypto use cases where it's valuable like airdrops are one obvious one right like you don't want your airdrops to just be massively Farms to the fibc fund you want to like actually yeah have lots of different people um you know like get uh tokens uh and then like I think it's good to have different approaches where because I think every one of these approaches has different trade-offs right so like for a long time we've had social graph based stuff like circles and kind of like proof of humanity but there's limits to how fast they can grow and then obviously we have World coin now with Biometrics and that has a lot of advantages but that has some of its own problems and like like National ideas are I mean in some sense they are a social graph but they're just a centralized social graph where like the countries are the trusted nodes and like that's far from perfect but I think as a thing to bootstrap from like it's totally fine like I think in the long term future everything will be social graph based right and the value of all of some of these other tools is to be able to let us bootstrap the social graph more quickly so that we can be sure that like we actually yeah have some secure uh cryptographically attested human identities every around the world so we'll think that's valuable another thing that I think is valuable is uh you know when if we want users to be moving to these uh you know like multi-sig wallets to store most of their funds you need to actually have um you know like multiple things uh like you need to figure out like who the signers actually are right right and I think having a government ID be one of the signers is why yeah it's a totally fine thing to do right yeah yeah okay yeah yeah do you want to think of blockchain can mitigate social reproduction in some way okay like social reproduction like what is that like how fast meme spread either if you we can skip this question okay is there estimated time for the next upgrade uh I'm not the time guy asked him his name is three quarters of time um um and a more exact estimation of how much the roll-up cost will be reduced estimating cost is hard right I think because the number is that I believe the plan is to have 380 uh four kilobytes uh per block of uh personal watt of data space which is like like four times as much as the average amount of data in an existing ethereum block and that would go adjust the Roll-Ups um so how much that would reduce roll-up cost is hard to tell because on the one hand it's like you know 5x Supply and I like I remember doing a historical analysis that says yes that the demand elasticity is about one and so if you five axis apply you're cutting the cost by 5x but then like it's possible that there's just a lot of extra demands to use Roll-Ups and lots of people will switch to it and like instead of reducing fees we'll have similar fees but like things that are less decentralized today become more decentralized tomorrow all right and then so I think even after 4844 we are going to need to start expanding scalability pretty soon even after that how about the ethereum concur now how will this update change the way or two ecosystem it will reduce fees and it will allow things that are centralized today to become decentralized yeah next oh this is about a location I think it is a diversity yeah that's good okay the Retro pgf organized by optimism is open for everyone to participate but the current badge holder is predominantly composed of native English speakers while many Chinese readers are capable of comprehending English content there are considerably fewer English readers who engage with Chinese content how do you perceive the resource allocation disparity the Chinese media faces on the Retro pgf yeah I mean I think it's a it's a good question and I think it's an important one especially now and one of the reasons why it's important now is that I think some of these newer technology areas are like actually creating big opportunities for people to participate and to participate in one like those countries we're not able to really uh participate in ethereum research and development much before right so Ezekiel the Amazon one and 4844 is another like there's just huge you know Chinese communities for example in both of those areas right and uh I think sometimes like you need these you know like new technology yeah kind of um you know like Trends to start just like as a as a reset so that you know you people can come in and not feel like they're 10 years behind people who have already been doing things for a decade uh so but then like with that opportunity obviously yeah you know we need to actually properly take advantage of it right and uh making sure that like retro pgf for example properly yeah you know like knows about and recognizes those projects I mean I definitely agree it's super important I mean I like actually did remember I brought up that issue with the Asia optimism team I think uh back when they were initially yeah initially designing it I think it's uh yeah the the challenge is definitely that like the optimism team in particular has been historically you know like a pretty U.S Centric and uh for them to expand to more it will probably take a much more intentional effort on their part and I hope that they do that and I also hope at the same time that they are not the only ones and we see other retro pgf uh projects uh start to happen yeah cool yeah oh this is a I think this is the last question is about the value of decentralization yeah we've been emphasizing the importance of socialization of the approved cassettes protocol has been working around this after POS we see validators who split into different roles when considering infrastructure or interest structure and behavioral complexity it covers several aspects to achieve decentralization including to avoid the authority concentration fund concentration intensive Computing resources and the specialization brought by the software architecture from the recent Hot Topic of intense Centric somehow if you like the centralization seems to be inevitable and I would like to know what vitalik think about this yeah you know it's a it's a good question I mean I think like some of the centralization is definitely yet inevitable but I think some of the centralization is also just uh like a a result of uh you know like protocol decisions that get that get made and uh and choices that get made right so like one example of uh this maybe I feel like every like everyone talks about staking now but I just think talk about a different field um like wallets and uh like light client support right like today most people who connect to ethereum basically connect to ethereum by trusting in Fiora right and uh or potentially trusting some other third-party node provider and like this is potentially dangerous right because if the node provider gets hacked they can feed users wrong information and they can probably steal a lot of money from users like like if you just control inferior or you can't just immediately steal all of a person's assets but you can like show incorrect prices and potentially grab a lot of people's money when they use swaps for example right um so the yeah there are technologies that can fix this right and the challenge of course is that running your own ethereum node right now is just something that requires a lot of computing resources and it's complicated and the guest team has actually been doing a really brilliant work and trying to reduce the cost of running a node as much as they can like I think right now I remember I saw uh Peter salagi on uh x uh posting some uh you know like messages uh you know about has uh some of the work that he's been doing to improve the database design and how that improves sync time introduces the database size right so we could do a lot but like there's still a limit to how much you can do and I think the future there I mean in the short like if we want people to especially look on phones for example which like cannot even have 200 gigabytes right um let's just still have security like the first step is like client protocols um so ethereum proof of stake does have a Lifeline protocol and uh there's a system called uh called Helios by a16z that basically does a ZK snark over the like client protocol and that lets you lets it like basically be a kind of verifying proxy for ethereum so if you use it uh it or if you run Helios and you point your RPC to it and then you know you get some like a like client level guarantee uh but then also uh like having that on phones is good and then in the longer term future like we need stateless clients after that we finally need you know clear onesie avms and then the dream is that it should be possible for people to run a full node even on a phone it's actually like less hard than it seems the reason is that like phones are not good at computation but they're totally fine for bandwidth and so what you can do is like you like if you have all of this you're gonna knowledge proof infrastructure we can imagine a world where what a like client does is it downloads a block downloads maybe a yeah 100 kilobytes maybe a few megabytes whatever amounts of data then computes a hash over all of that data verifies a snark and that's verified the block yeah right so that's the kind of future that I want to like see ethereum full nodes become but like let's say yeah technology thing that needs to be built and while the technology thing is not built then like everyone goes and trusts in fira right or another example is like while account abstraction and the low fees are not practically available for users then like for a lot of people especially less technical people and people in like for example third world countries that are I mean like have a lot of uh problems with things like currency devaluation and they have a real need for crypto they had like a lot of people there just like don't have any practical option other than using binance accounts today right and like it's uh you know it's good that they have that they have options and that they're providing like that that option that's bringing the value right now but you know like the ideal is to have a naturalized systems actually be available even to those one that's like something that needs to actually be built and actually get done yeah I think it takes time to make a progress but like we can see a lot of pokers have already been down uh since five years maybe five years ago in 2018 I think vitalik stock in Thai places we want to solve the security problem privacy problems yeah but we can see yeah uh yeah my clients exist now I think uh like what I like a lot of problems do get solved right I think what happens is that often our standards go up right like by the standards of like 2015 for example like we now have solved the like client problem it just needs to be adopted right but now people are more ambitious than we want to like actually have full ckvm verification right um and then we talked a lot about proof of stake and now proof of stake is actually done but now we want to do single Squad finality and PBS right so things are like really uh are getting done in huge amounts of uh progress are being made but like at the same time there's definitely still more work left to go yeah and then one open that uh EF research ear Foundation doing pretty right I think is they um open source over the code and open over the documents all those are over the documents and also you have a research team has a regular AMA unrelated so this is a pretty transparent and very benefits for all the user want to join to the uh it's very inconsistent yeah so I'm pretty encouraged if you guys have a chance to please to uh uh yeah read this document okay so the last question do you have any words you want to encourage our current community um I mean I feel like I've said a lot of uh things already but I mean in general I think this is a yeah a great time to a really just start contributing because there's a lot of different things that you can start contributing on and there's a lot of these very new fields that are emerging where it's possible for new people to get in and I not feel like you're five or ten years behind people who have been doing this for a long time already right like the whole we were two space the application uh space I mean in the in ZK Snorks I think the thing that has only become possible over the last year is like it's become possible for people who do not understand the details of zero knowledge proofs themselves to build Zeke snark based applications right and that's new and that's something that's uh you can do now um so you know I think there's a lot of opportunities in uh technology and I think in addition to the technology there's a lot of work that needs to to be done right so I think on the community aspect like one thing I want to repeat is just this uh desire to that you know like as a community we can like actually start to really use some of these things more right like uh you know if we have meetups like actually we use um you know either popes or um you know zoo pass or like fans you know some of these blockchain or zero knowledge proof based things as uh um you know as tickets for the events like try to see if we can pay with uh you know a cryptocurrency for things um you know like see it yeah if we can actually use uh you know a decentralized social media um you know like lens exists farcaster exists um status.am exists it for five years but it's a quietly getting better I mean so you know like I'm increasingly spending more more of my time on some of these things and scaf also exists I mean like sign in with ethereum uh decentralized well semi-decentralized email and like with uh encryption so yeah that's like a lot of uh these uh figs are getting built and like you know there's value in as a community kind of supporting each other and also just uh you know like helping people who are doing work to like find each other and uh like actually you know like make sure that we're all cooperating and that you know like working towards the goal and you know together with each other and together with uh parts of the wider world so you know I hope that we can all play our part in doing that yeah okay thank you yeah thank you so um I've been instructed to deliver a message to someone named Anderson is there someone like there can you like play with something uh stand up wave anyone happy birthday to you happy birthday to happy birthday to you [Applause] oh cool yeah I think it might must be your not Unforgettable memory okay so thanks for uh vitalik for answering lots of a question and yeah thank you thank you foreign