Coury D: MakerDAO and the DAI Stablecoin | ETHDenver

how many guys have heard of maker cool does anyone in here own any MKR okay it's kind of hard to get it's not like you can go on clone e^x so there's there's maker is a stable coin there they want to make a stable coin but there's actually two coins within the maker ecosystem the maker Dow there's MKR and then there's dye which is the actual stable coin so we'll talk about both tonight but a little bit about me my name is corey ditch it's a terrible last name to have when you're talking to people on tech support which is what i do a lot what crypto is not my day job it's more like my night obsession and i became obsessed with bitcoin not not too far before i met kent and then he told me about hiriam which i'm really glad he did it was still like 80 cents and yeah it sounded really cool and it's just it's great and I got really into crypto like I heard about it a while ago I didn't really I don't know I just internet like emoney it didn't seem to feasible I don't really get anyone can do it you know I I saw like way back in high school zeitgeist that movie I'm sure a lot of you guys have seen that movie it's probably why a lot of viewers might be here but it blows your mind open about the Fed and what's going on there and then I'll move into like how does money really work why like what does the Fed do how is it affecting the economy how does it affect my life and you know the dollar dollar is like deceivingly stable in the short term but over the long term we've all seen the graph which it'll be up later of the dollars from like 1913 to now it's like five cents on the cards this is what's happening here so this is actually my first presentation forgive me if I get anything wrong if I do get anything wrong then just send that to my email the corrections actually better yet just send it to that one so since it's kind of late I won't go over this too much but I wanted to like warm us up I think we've all had a pretty good warm-up already with previous discussions but what makes good money we've had like beads hides metals paper plasticky paper if you're from Canada or Australia that's actually pretty cool cash but there's basically like three properties the first being a store of value so this is like allows you to save which is actually a really incredible technology if you think about it you can you can kind of trap time and before when you you know you can't really like take your berries and put it in your rabbit-skin wallet or your cave vault and like give it to your grandkids or something and you know bequeath them some fortune or save it for a rainy day or your crops fail it just doesn't work but like with money and all this technology comes about and you can afford to you know do art anyways the second property is it's a medium of exchange in order to be good currency needs to be used to be medium of exchange and good medium exchange has all of these properties here durable you need to be able to divide it you need to you know I need to be fungible this this money needs to look the same as that portable relatively scarce and resistant to counterfeiting luckily crypto currencies excel at every one of these like beyond you know gold arguably and lastly needs to be unit of account and it it can't it's not really a good unit of account if it's not a like good medium of exchange or store and vice versa they are all like really dependent on each other but the the unit of account is very important because you can you can get prices and with prices comes this kind of emergent property of price signaling which is which is really interesting it's it just happens like you we're not even we're not even trying when we go to you know get a bagel or something like that it's sending all kinds of signals throughout the market you know the wheat grower to the to the Baker to the truck driver who delivers it like just that one action has all of these ramifications that you don't even know about and you're just transacting with your saved money or your earned money it's pretty incredible it's one of the reasons why communism Marxism whatever you want to call it didn't really work so well is because they didn't have a rational means to price things they had this you know kind of board of however many people and they just almost arbitrarily decided what the prices were there's that there's actually a funniest story of some some bureaucrat in the Soviet Union was talking about like you know we want every country to go to be socialist like that would be awesome you know that's what our that's what our ideals are except New Zealand because that's where we get our prices from like we copy their prices without that we wouldn't know what to do just like what you know wouldn't really work that like you got rid of every other country's pricing system and it all just became centrally managed like New Zealand's it would just every time some country went socialist the the price signaling would just deteriorate and then you would just have New Zealand well you might get like an accurate price on sheep because they're good at that like that's about it so stable coins so that's about money and you know stable money is important for all these reasons and we you know I'm sure a lot of us got into Bitcoin because we wanted something better than the dollar we wanted something better than what the Fed central bank is doing and Bitcoin offices that accept Bitcoin is super volatile it actually kind of sucks as a currency as we all seem like I I try to get my parents to they have bit pay at their business I'm the only one who ever buys with bit pay there it's like no one is like it's not even eagled wasn't it wasn't very good there you know obviously all the smart contract stuff is gonna be what really makes this stuff shine but in order to be a currency and get out of the dollar I get just get out of Fiat it needs to be stable so but yeah it's kind of a weird like a lot of people don't want crypto to be stable it's just you know well we all want to like put in a dollar and be a millionaire next week or something like that which I can't argue with that so seriously why though does anyone here have any thoughts on why a stable coin what's up because if you want want people to use it you have value people are gonna use it to achieve it's going up and I support it yep I'm gonna use it in the way it's supposed to they can't depend on putting in their deals have to watch the price and we're gonna figure out what the value of the thing when a pocket is that they're going to spend yeah if they can't put it in their pocket forget about it for a it's not that usual just an extension that four times yeah yeah obviously stagflation inflation of will horrible and that's essentially with the reversal stability yeah you know and I mean the Fed would argue the people of the Fed would argue that deflation is also horrible work because it leads to like what hoarding people think oh then my money is gonna be worth more tomorrow I'm just gonna hold it I think there's a lot of interesting arguments around that but I mean the kind of volatility we see in Bitcoin like like those kind of conversations are real relevant like when it goes from 200 to 800 like is that and is that deflation or is that just like a bunch of Kidman kindergarteners on coke like getting on Polonia actually like what's happening so I think oh yeah ology it really allows humans in a diverse trust each other to court date across time so I think you can something mean yeah yeah yeah so you could actually argue with it that the follow of the US dollar over a hundred years as long as it's kind of one way and it's just anyone can play it sometimes less yeah and it's expectation predictable yeah for the new year to you can still kind of coordinating across time yeah what I say is that I think that's part of they like efficient market hypothesis that this if it's predictable it can be priced in it can be accounted for it's the uncertainty it's the Robert Higgs is an economist dubbed it the regime uncertainty when you just happened when the entrepreneurs the businessmen don't know what's gonna happen they just kind of stop doing business and you know whether that's good or bad is you know depends on your philosophy another way to say what's the cost a lot of us yes yeah exactly so better UX like right now we have to go dollar to crypto to whatever else and then back out and then like if you're gambling you're also either gambling on a third eye sore or bit so she dies you're also kind of gambling on the price of the cryptocurrency you're gambling with so you're not only just gambling on the poker hand you have but they're gambling on the price of ether I'm not really a big gambler so I think but that just is a good example of why smart contract innovation so like when you were saying you know time-sensitive like there's going to be cool time-sensitive smart contracts like smart wills you want to lock up some ether for just or whatever for for your kids your grandkids and you won't have it auto execute and all those cool things we've heard Andres Antonopoulos talk about that you're not gonna put like dogecoin yeah you just don't know if in like in 30 years or 60 years when your kids like gonna get this if that's gonna be worth anything so and then you know stability mass adoption and innovation just banking retail you know escrow services and of course the great Fiat exit except for separation of money of states like the rothbard ii and utopia the libertarians wet dream there here is a graph of bitcoins volatility index from 2011 to now it's been getting better like you know but compared to the dollar and you know just fiat is the USD in the euro it's just not not gonna buy the groceries with this stuff it's way too crazy it's more of a speculative store of value which is kind of just kind of weird like I'm sure we can all most people who have bought in to these things now like it it feels more like a speculation I mean I don't know if you can all agree with that it's absolutely is and then you know even though the dollar is really stable on that graph here's our famous dollar graph I don't know what was happening was that World War one just that enormous like cut in half within a couple of years there yeah that well I mean the Great Depression yeah and then that I think that's when they're like big bait-and-switch with FDR's gold like twenty to thirty five dollar thing happen right there but then just World War two and then with five cents two big drops what's that yeah yeah exactly exactly there you go yeah we need to inflate to buy tanks etc yeah the what was it the it wasn't the Bretton Woods is in the 40s but he nullified that agreement yeah so you know if you you cut this here and this was up there I'm sure you'd see some crazy stuff yeah yeah yeah compared to a lot of other fiat currencies pretty good but I'm just wondering if we can get we get even better than that so how how do we do state like how do you know the Fed if you think of the dollar is a stable coin how do they how does the Fed do it they have to manipulate supply and demand which sounds like really dirty and it kind of is like if you're from the Austrian persuasion it that's what central banking is like you know you don't you don't really manipulate supply if you're a gold miner you just you just try to mine more and then you sell it but you know maker is trying to do this decentralized central banking if you hear a room Christensen talk in some of the podcasts and his interviews he almost has this reverence for I don't want to say he has a reverence for central banking but some of the ideas that come out of that academia he he understands that there's like some things worth taking out of there which have thrown a lot of crypto enthusiasts off but I think there's I think he's picking some good things out and making a cool system here so that the two supplied side problems are and Vitalik wrote an article regarding this quite quite a while ago is like how do you create it and who do you give it to you just gonna like have the smart contract created out of thin air and just like randomly give it to people not in makers case maker uses a trustless leveraging platform as like the base and then out of this kind of profit motivated system is the die stable coin so maker Dow the components are the maker coin which is the kind of the governance token which is risky but could make it could have some high profits with that risk and you also get the ability to vote in the the governor's process and then there's the die stable coin which doesn't it didn't stand for decentralized autonomous insurance when they created it but yeah it's a backronym it's kind of cool so the dies peg to the SDR which is a basket of currencies that the IMF the International Monetary Fund manages and it's like the dollar the Euro the pound the end the yuan I don't know if there's any others in there but they they basically adjust the IMF adjusts the weights every five years depending on economic output of those countries the idea is to make a really release like the stable coin of the world and I don't think the average Joe can buy an SDR we might be able to buy derivatives or something but it's mostly for countries and yeah no no but that's the are that that's so that's an initial thing they have talked about pegging into a basket of commodities or just getting more debate but they need like as far as what we've got now and it's building an Oracle system which would be required for this Dow having that one asset is just the easiest and it was better than going with like the dollar or the pound or whatever to have this globally stable currency the second thing is the Dow governance model so there's weekly meetings there's voting we'll get into some of the things that need to be governed there's like collateralization ratios of some of the assets that that actually back the dice table coin there's the keepers which are kind of the autonomy autonomy they're like anyone here could be a keeper they they're just profit motivated fun motivated individuals who want to like keep they help keep the system safe just by interacting with it and we'll talk about those and then there's like the big money Kahuna the CDP's collateralized debt position engine this is like the smart smart contract and they're still developing it they've been developing it for a while they've been testing it I'm sure they've gone through a lot of iterations but that that's like the cool that's kind of the hard thing to explain but it's super cool we'll get into that actually yeah I'll just explain kind of a CDP real quick so you can hash it out basically you you take you in order to create dye or issue dye you have to collateralize it so you have to put something up and I they usually use the like 1 to 1.5 ratio so you have to put like a hundred and fifty dollars of Bitcoin into a CDP and out comes a hundred dollars worth of dye so it always has to have a positive collateralization now the benefit of that is you if the only reason why you'd want to issue dye is if you wanted to use it as leverage so if you want to hold dye for the stability properties you would just go on the open market Polonia X and just buy die from people who have already issued it if you want to issue dye you're doing it because you want to you want to let go long something you want to go long Bitcoin so maybe you have you know maybe block Bitcoin up in cep you get a you know certain amount of dye from that and then you buy Bitcoin with that died and you've kind of leveraged your Bitcoin position or you can hedge you can buy ether you whatever like you can buy another asset but the point is it it's almost like it it's almost like a decentralized loan bank like it's a trustless loan like you just you just do it and then it happens so the issuer puts up that Bitcoin anyone can be an issuer yes it's the CDP it's the collateralized deposition and the problem is and we'll get into it is like if the whatever is collateralizing it lowers and value like what do you do like now the the value of the dye is put into the question because if it's under collateralized then obviously the dye is gonna fall away from its peg to the SDR if Bitcoin lowers relative to yes they are step canada it's just the ability to leverage so you can essentially you can just go long Bitcoin I mean that that's just one example you can go long in something so you can put $1,000 let's say $1,500 into a CDP of whatever collateralization of your choice Bitcoin ether or maybe even the dollar eventually you get a thousand died now you can now you know you still kind of have your $1,500 of Bitcoin locked in there you can always get it back out if you repay the dye that you borrowed out of it but you can use that it's like a loan and you're just putting up you know it's like it's like taking equity out on your house you still live in your house still have it you just it's like yeah you're it's kind of the bank's for the time here what's that is their code so there there is an interest rate we'll get into that let me just so the dye it's it's the idea is like it's going to be a diversified and have this excess collateral base whether it's a hundred and fifty percent I mean that's pretty big that comes that's a that's a pretty big capital cost to lock up 150% capital and only get a hundred percent like in the real world it's it's much lower so I think it's gonna be depending on like the governance will determine all right digits is really you know it's tied to gold it's not as risky I think the collateralization ratio on that can be lower may be dogecoin you're like five hundred percent collateralization or something okay it's gonna be pegged at point seven three SDR which is one dollar right now when it goes live that might be different and then there will be gradual deflation so you could hold SDA are you gonna hold die and it's you're getting you're gonna get like maybe two three four percent I don't know it depends on certain parameters of the what's going on but there's just this natural deflation in dies so you just hold it and that's kind of one of the incentives to holding the diet okay yeah okay well that's one of the later slides but really shortly it the the Oracles who provide and I think it's part of the government's the work was provided the SDR peg the peg is just raised it's just the number and then the system moves the dye to the peg and yeah so like the management is decentralized and yeah it's super confusing right now but just like we'll go through the whole thing and then at the end we can I know it's really it's kind of hard it's it's your last so the peg increases annually which is why this deflation and it's kind of like a savings interest rate and eventually you know might be pegged a bigger basket not just the SDR maker and now governance sedan kr holders the other coin you can just hold it or you don't have to participate in governance you can go and vote on stuff the risk is that you're as an MK r holder you're the lender of last resort you're if there's a big under collateralization and all the features of the system don't come into play and save this save all they're like CPS from just getting tanked then you have to bail out the bad CDP's and the idea is like the CDP's will as they approach 100% collateralization there's all these mechanisms to incentivize the keepers to buy to basically margin call the CDP's before they hit the dead zone if they go under a hundred percent there's no incentive for a keeper to buy it out because they'd be essentially putting up like say a hundred dollars worth of die to get ninety five dollars worth of whatever is locked up in that CDP which will we'll go through like a step by step situation no they they just are like the lender of last resort the liquidity providers are anyone who wants to issue anyone wants to interact with the Dow and and lock up something into a CDP so they can get dye and use that dye for whatever they want to do most likely leverage your hedge something the benefit is that the interest rate on a CDP there is an interest rate for using a CDP it's not free that excess money or dye is put into a reserve fund for the Dow and it and they do weekly buying burns of the MKR so if everything goes great and there's no like massive black swamp scenarios and bailouts the MKR supplies dwindles and dwindles and your amp car just goes up and up and up and I mean I asked the founders like is there theoretically a situation where you could have like it could just be awesome and work great for like 50 years and then they're you know you have these buying burns and you have like two mkr and maybe like people have 0.3 0 0 0 5 8 9 3 MK I mean just be weird because right now there's a million MKR and the way I don't know if you guys are familiar with how they've distributed it they've gotten a lot of they've gotten some flack for that people think they're like a pump and dump because they they they're the kind of the Dow holds a lot of this initial MKR and they were they didn't really hype up the actually that's my next point here they didn't hype up so the whole sale of MKR this is kind of one of the criticisms but I I think especially now that we've seen what happened with V Dow we like did a different framework but all that hype there's a lot of money that that went in there and it just it's a shitty situation and I'm kind of glad they didn't hype this up and they did it for a reason because they want the MKR holders to be like really knowledgable and invested in the system and they're not just gonna hand out MKR sell it willy-nilly they're selling it to people on their forums and in their in their chat channels and they did it one little reddit post to tell everyone about it but they're getting more out there now money is either increase of value by a war device by by the system volume back yeah there's yeah there's so there's deflation there's deflation in MKR through the bind burn and deflation and die through the peg adjustment there's kind of deflation deflations in both but the die is like stable and the peg adjustment is it's predictable the mkr is susceptible to this bailout black swan under collateralization scenario actually yeah right now you can you can do that dye is not out yet yeah so the keepers they're kind of meta miners they they go out in margin call the CDP's will get over it will get will go over that in a minute they just like scrape the blockchain and you're like who are these people how do they do it well they are also they also our price Oracle they they have it I think they have a docker image right now but the ideal is like they're gonna put it on a Raspberry Pi you just plug in this Raspberry Pi you might be able to like mess with some of the parameters to optimize it for you know you but it's just it's just gonna do this and scrape the chain and look for under collateralized CDP's and buy them out if the owners of those CDP's aren't vigilant and see that the value of their collateralization is going down then the keepers come in at a certain point they can come in it's a profitable for them to come in and and buy it out a fort hits kind of the dead zone under a hundred percent collateralization all right so the CDP's this is maybe one of the hardest slides oh maybe not slides coming up they create the dot like this caught the smart contract issues that I you interact with it you lock up collateral you get your collateral back by paying the dive plus the interest rate and you get your your collateral right back it main it maintains the dies SDR peg through kind of the incentive and how it interacts how it makes the keepers interact with it and there's the disability fee or the interest rate APR CDP ownership is transferable which makes for some interesting smart contract applications but only the like if you're not an owner of the CDP you can still buy it out but there's there's kind of a bounty rate so that is what this slide is all about all right so what most most the time I've been talking about you you put like $150 of Bitcoin in and you get $100 and die out so you're 150 percent collateralized it's not advantageous for the keepers to buy out your CDP until it reaches 125 percent and then from 125 to 120 there's a huge like it Peaks there and and they get you know the keepers get good profits from that and then just from there it goes down and down until it hits a hundred at which point it's it's in the dead zone and MKR has to do the bailout all right so here are some actual like step-by-step examples Alice meets Toshi she's very impressed by his his wealth of knowledge and stunning looks so she decides to go longer BTC she already has 150 Bitcoin so she pops 150 bucks into a CD P gets a hundred died and decides to buy even more Bitcoin and so now she has 250 Bitcoin she has $100 died debt and her CDP's fully like really nicely collateralized and Bitcoin goes like pretty damn moon and doubles and now our CDP is twice as collateralized her her bitcoin holdings you know are 500 she's still in debt well she just takes some of her Bitcoin winnings pays off the CDP she has 400 she has 400 bucks which is oops got wrote that down yeah so she nets 167 like if she just would have kept her 150 Bitcoin she would have only had $300 when Bitcoin doubled but because she leveraged it with dye she has yeah yeah it is it's this is confusing that was like this is the complex step but if there's any questions please I'm not familiar with that term but sure oh yeah okay okay so okay yeah so like she's so she started out with 150 and like if if she didn't interact with maker she this 150 when it doubled would have been 300 but she was impressed she loves Australians and so she she locks up the hundred fifty gets that hundred dollars and is able to use that as leverage the die because of this CDP like she just puts it in the smart contract and out comes on a hundred died a hundred dollars and died she goes on pony axe which trades die and sells it buy a seat by his Bitcoin and now she has $250 in Bitcoin she kinda I mean 150 that isn't hers because it's locked up in a CD piece so it's at risk that's why she's in this debt but it doubles she pays off the CDP and she has 400 now does that make sense yeah exactly that's a little off it should be like depending on how what the time range of the doubling was she this doesn't take into account the interest rate but yeah it's a it's an autonomous it's an autonomous like loan leverage loaner we have only going to say that to Alice yeah yeah yeah yeah I mean this is yeah yeah look at get convoluted oops but it makes for the rest of us who are yeah so there's quite a few ways to make a stable coin there's already some out there but this is just like I think if you listen on the ether of you there's a guy named I think Dominick Williams if I'm not mistaken he goes over like four different types and this is one of the types he talks about and I think it's called a DCC a decentralized collateral collateralized coin or something like that yeah did you have a question she so she sold the dye in bought Bitcoin yeah I mean it's just it's just like people are people know the system it's kind of like the dowel token like the Dow didn't really have value except for like people just bought it and then it had value because people trusted it and the same thing is gonna happen initially with the dye yeah because she recursively $200 I precisely yeah she could yeah she could but she would be he would be yes she would be getting she would be leveraging she you know she would just be in it would be like what our banking system is now I mean that would totally happen but it would just be like massively leveraged like an actual dollar that you hold in your wallet is different than the dollar that shows up on your online banking screen because of the amount of leverage behind what's gone every time someone wants to do it now like like what now what people do with their die doesn't doesn't matter it's just like the die is created and if they want to use that die to go long or hedge or whatever they want to do with the die it is the only thing that matters as far as that it's coming lots of BTC just don't think you don't don't think so there are some attack there are some attack vectors and they Dominic William guys talks about it and then rune replies to him on this really interesting post on reddit that scenario was described in but I won't get into depth there but that's a really good point yeah that there is no term for what I understand the limit is interests there's a limit in in the like if there's like the maker governance decides that bitcoin there just can't be like more than 20% of whatever's collateralizing the system cannot be you know bitcoin can only be 20% like you can't just collateralize the entire thing with bitcoin there's there's ratios ceilings that need to be met which is smart so I think they're really like they're really down on digits because it's they're they're really like with digits using that as because it's just backed by gold and it's stable and there are there are some interesting critiques of that too but it's probably the strongest you know cuz it's actually backed by something physical alright so here's the real life margin call if you know Bitcoin has a kind of high gravity day and it goes down 20% her CDP goes from 150 to 120 percent collateralization so you know 20% of 150 dollars is 30 so she's that's 30 - 150 dollars that's 120% collateralization so Bob comes in with his keeper PI and straights up the positive bounty CDP Bob gets a hundred and five dollars for a hundred died because remember that graph it's only profitable for him to get in like anything before 125 percent anything above that it has a negative bounty so he'd be paying like a hundred died for less than you know a hundred Bitcoin but anything like at 125 he pretty much gets a hundred for a hundred and then anything above that 220 is there's this positive bounty so that I mean I hope no you could scrape it I think a lot of people will just scrape it at one percent or it maybe even less than that they'll just because it'll be costless essentially and then it'll be the cop whatever they cost the transaction will this be looking for any CDP that's past the zero point whether that's a hundred and twenty four percent collateralization all the way down to 100 and 1% collateral but anything below a hundred percent it's they're just getting less money you're burning dye so fit and then that the rest of it cuz like we had $120 in there and Bob only got 105 the rest of that dies just returned to Alice and then the debt is closed so she has $95 her 15 that was returned and then the hundred Bitcoin that she had bought with the dye in it lowered 20% in value so she has 95 if she just would have kept her 150 dollars in Bitcoin it would have gone she would have had 100 and 130 dollars instead of 95 yeah she could buy out her CDP I mean if she was vigilant she wouldn't let this kind of margin call happen yeah she but this is just like there's an incentive for the CDP issuers to close out CDP's which which maintains the dye stability and then at a certain point if it comes under collateralized there's an incentive for the keepers all right so just sake of time this is like complete collapse the keepers can't keep up ironically enough turns out Satoshi is Al Gore and he just wanted to make it tubes for the money and Bitcoin explode implodes value down 90% way too fast for the keepers a lot of CDP's hit the dead zone if you know because maybe 10% of the system is its back collateralized by Bitcoin Alice just automatically defaults dies under collateralized maker bails out the dead CD B's CD piece with the die and the maker reserves well okay cool so now although like bad CDs are out so like the ideas they MK are can be inflated and that's the risk of holding MKR and that's kind of the short-term price stability there's only a few more slides left the long-term is maintained through so if through the the deflation rate the the peg basically with it they adjust the peg for the long for hitting the long term stability so if the diet appreciates against the SDR then just the die deflation rate rises which makes holding die more attractive greater demand for die which raises the price and makes GDP issuance less attractive because now it costs more like the die your you're getting from the CVP you have you know and then you maybe in a year you pay off your CDP well you have to pay off with the interest rate plus the depreciation of the die so you would have had to buy more so it just has this double incentive factor which stabilizes the price and then the opposite if it appreciates its there's less demand to hold die so people sell it and the die price goes down the issue the you know it's cheaper to issue it use it for leveraging so more die is created through CDP issuance and that's die inflation so the price yeah recap MKR holders govern the stability die holders get stability and i issuers get to use this trustless leveraging platform die holders died issuers dioecious yes so like yeah yeah yeah yeah i mean there's an interesting term for this it's kind of like I don't know what the term is but it's like it's like musical chairs yeah almost well no but like in the beginning there just be a bunch of people issuing dying than a die will go on the market and then you'll just buy the die and pay out the interest rate does yeah yeah I mean that the dye will be on the market for Alice to repay it's like if but this poses injury yeah we're like so the music stopping is everyone closing out all the CDP's which I don't think yeah would be I just don't think of me yeah but that is an interesting question it just like what are the why would that happen I guess what's up yeah they've been they've they've been working they've been working on this yeah no I'm sure like this is awesome and there's a you're right there's a lot of moving parts it's going to be really cool to see it happen I don't think I mean it's gonna be really hard to like to imagine it it's gonna be hard to imagine like taking over you know the global taking over Fiat or whatever is it but but funny enough they maker the maker team actually found the exploit that killed the Dow and I remember getting this message from the slack channel like alright everyone we found this problem but good news we hacked our own we hacked ourselves and got the money out of there before in them they kind of told everyone after the fact and they so they found the recursive call exploit and and then that's when like Stephan tool was like oh you know they found this so you know it's all safe now but like that was because of how the Dow's smart contract worked it was like it was not safe obviously so or they reaching altitudes to further research to not only find the flaw that was in oh yeah yeah they're very they're very conservative I mean not only have they been working on this for a lot longer and they have they've done multiple security audits they have very they're number one like cultural like ideal is they're just completely security minded I think I mean obviously there's going to be internal audits it seems obvious to me that that would happen but yeah there's external audits by and burns so the it the part of the interest from this the CDP the CDP issuers people who want to use that leveraging platform they have to pay the interest part of that goes to doing the mkr by and Bruce yeah Alice you know she is pretty sure CDP's are limit like you can hold a CDP limit you know but she's worried because the guy might go up and then she has to buy the back yes you know I'm sorry for your presentation that this is a really cool sophisticated technical derivative but I can't help but think that if the intent is to reduce volatility there's much simpler solution obviously more more participants the market more companies like yeah yeah yeah nice totally see like the yeah even if even if Bitcoin was as stable as the dollar died would theoretically be way more stable than the dollar so I see what you're saying like if there was a big enough network effect but the problem with getting people to use Bitcoin is it's not stable but it can't be stable until more people use it so if we can make a stable coin without having to rely on this kind of like mass adoption but yeah you're right it's super complicated I mean it's crazy no I mean you can just go by guy but if you want to like use the leveraging but if you want to be if you want to be Alice like yeah you should know you're doing or if you want to be an NK our folder you should govern you know it but if you want to hold a stable coin you just go to point X Y a exactly yeah which is why they didn't hike the issuance of a yeah I mean for these people okay wait wait one the whole one guy behind you for yeah I have but I I don't know really they on github yeah I'm pretty sure it's open source yeah but I could I could I hope I'm not wrong but I'm pretty sure I've seen their contracts in on their github yeah or or you can go in there I mean they're really open going there they moved off the slack there on rocket chat you can get in there you can talk to Nicolai Michigan who's a lot of these guys came from like new bits and if and the other stable coin platforms they found aetherium and they were like whoa we could make we could use smart contract and just make a better state we could use the things we've learned over here doing on top of the period chairs yeah yeah no new bits I don't you know I I don't have a crystal ball like it I agree it's super complex there's all these there there's like some pretty major attack vectors from what I understand like yeah I mean there's some it's you're right it's really complex there's a lot of things I can go wrong with it I just think the reason why I'm fascinated with it aside from the fact that it might produce a stable coin is like the game theoretical like how they how they get the dye pegged to be maintained and how the keepers interact like the whole system is just really elegant and beautiful to me that's why I think it's cool but yeah I don't have like super high super duper duper high hopes but but I well die is on the etherium blockchain it's a token on the etherion blockchain so you wouldn't have it's in there's no real a needed you can you can trade it like you trade digits now or whatever else yeah yeah so I can miss like if you bought into the Dow V Dow like they just hijacked that that term which is kind of angers me because I think the Dow is a really cool concept it's like naming your a car company car it doesn't really make sense but yeah so yeah you can have doubt oaken's in you can trade or like one cool thing if you donate to the etherion foundation you get a unicorn token so look into that IV you I have a couple unicorn tokens in my missed wallet as well as a 30 so that's another thing that's going to form collateral other than just things locked up in the CD pieces they're actually getting real live firms in the real world to represent collateral but no if that's what you were yeah very so like I said they were not trying to hype it up they've been they've been getting out there more they have the ether review podcast they have the day of the what's the bitcoin epicentre Bitcoin interview which is really good I mean those guys are super smart and they drill yeah they're not well MKR isn't deflating right now because guy doesn't exist yet MKR is is just it just it's just a simple token that exists right now and and it has a price it's like it's actually it gets like 30 or 40 bucks but if you want to be involved with the governance which is happening right now they're building the system they're they're deciding how what developers to fund security audits you have to hold mkr but the the 1 million mkr there's been no buy burns because there's no die yet yeah so just just go to maker.com and you can read their white paper and you can look at the exchange to get maker and I mean yeah cool yeah I would highly recommend the interviews on the podcast interviews and I'll leave it at that they're really good